Blue,
I was reading your post on the What You Are thread and it literally took my breath away. The similarities -in our families, in ourselves, in our IC-are just amazing.

I was particularly struck by how you talked about your mother. I had always thought that my mother and I were close - united against my controlling, raging father (I actually think he might have been bi-polar as his insane screaming was sporadic.) She taught me the same lessons that you learnt from your mother - don't rock the boat. She would sometimes see my H being cruel to me and instead of telling me that I shouldn't allow myself to be treated that way, she would urge me to just leave him alone and walk away from it. When I finally told her about H's A's, she thought she was being helpful when she said "that is what men do - it doesn't mean anything.Move on with your lives." !!!!!! This from an educated, financially independent woman!!!!

But,like you, I have learned that she has also suffered from trauma in her life (sent to live with relatives for many years when she was young) so I now understand that she was battling her own abandonment issues and learned that compliance was how to survive. Through IC, I have learned that we weren't really close - that was just another delusion - she was just a source of comfort in a painful world. I feel tremendous rage towards her today - but impotent rage, as she was just diagnosed with Alzheimers and I can't deal with her honestly.

And, my father made me feel insignificant - what I thought didn't matter and my decisions were always bad. When my H and I were dating, he told my mother, "That relationship won't lead to marriage. He could have anyone he wants." How incredibly insulting!! And my mother repeated that to me. So, of course, I was grateful that this man "who could have anyone" chose someone as worthless as my father made me feel. My father died when I was 30, so I can't express my rage to him either.

That leaves a lot of rage for H. And, I have to remind myself that he is getting the full brunt of the fury built over 50 years.

In some ways, I feel that both H and I were "set up" for what happened because of our histories. I learned that it was OK to be treated badly by H and I was looking for someone to make me feel better about myself. H is handsome, smart, charming - he fit the bill, regardless of his recklessness, irresponsibility, immaturity and emotional cruelty.

And H suffered from terrible insecurities as well (grew up poor in England, always felt inferior even though he went on to Oxford and a successful career). Add the alcohol, bi-polarity and a stupid aggressive young slut and you have the perfect storm.

But now, I know better. For me, the best result of IC is my becoming aware of the stories I have been listening to and creating. It is definitely time for a new book.

I am sure you now know more about me than you ever wanted to - would love to hear more about you and how you and your H are progressing. It sounds like you are doing well overall, despite some deep, dark dips. Sometimes,even two years later, I feel like I am being pulled down into the waves of the A and am drowning. I have to remember that particular ocean is a bad place to swim. I can tell that H is getting sick of dealing with it - but that's another post.

Wow. Its definitely amazing the similarities that you and I have shared. It'd be interesting to see how often women from emotionally abusive backgrounds end up with spouses that have A's. Likewise, it'd be interesting to see the percentages of WS's that have an emotionally abusive past. Why does one person with an emotionally abusive past end up being a victim later in life, while another chooses to victimize? Questions to ponder on another day...

I'm so sorry to hear about your Mom's diagnosis, not only for her sake...but also for yours. For what it will mean to you as her abilities deteriorate and also for the inability to resolve issues that you might have wanted to broach at some point.

Your dad died a while ago. I can't tell you how many times I've played that scenario through in my head, because I know when my dad goes, that there will be SO MUCH with him that is left unresolved. Did you do anything, Susan, to put to rest any feelings of resentment or animosity that you had for him? I've heard of people writing letters and putting them in the casket and can somewhat envision doing that myself. Have you done anything with your IC that you've found helpful in finding resolution with either parent without directly confronting either of them?

As for sharing the info regarding the A's: Though I struggled a bit in the beginning after DDay, I came pretty quickly to the conclusion that I couldn't tell my folks about H's A. Sadly, the main reason for that was that I couldn't trust that they would be supportive of me and "be on my side". My dad adores my H, and H and I've joked in the past about how Dad loves/values H more than me. The man's had him up on a pedestal almost since the day they met. If I were to tell my Dad about the A, the first words out of his mouth would be, "No! He would never do that!!!" Though I know my Mom wouldn't doubt me, I think I fear the same kind of answer your mom gave you. In the end, I'd been betrayed enough by my H; I couldn't bear to make myself vulnerable to a new way to get betrayed by my parents in the wake of the discovery trauma.

That said, I don't carry a lot of anger for my mom. If I step back and look as a bystander at what she allowed to happen, I am appalled and angry. But I know my Dad and the grip he had over us. I didn't think anyone had the power to stand up to his rage (which to me has been an undiagnosed version of borderline personality disorder coupled with what I believe to be a wildly abusive family that he grew up with). And so Mom was comforting and loving and supportive when Dad wasn't around (a bunch! because Dad travelled constantly and was a workaholic). When Dad was back home, my Mom, sis and I would put on our survival suits and do our best to fade into the background and not attract attention. It never occurred to me that she had the ability to stand up to him. The child in me understood that too well and didn't expect it of her. It just was the nature of our family.

Age has softened them both. Mom loves Dad dearly and is very appreciative of the way he now treats her more kindly and gently. Dad has recognized some of what he did over the years and will make elusive remarks about mistakes he's realized he made. He still has the ability to wildly and irrationally behave or rant, so I stay in touch, but there is greater emotional distance. And the inability to speak to them of the A, and the way that dealing with the A has become my life also keeps me at arm's length.

My H's past is a twist on my own. Loving, but neglectful. Aware on the surface, but uninvolved. At a very young age, his family moved to a house that was huge. The entire family had bedrooms on the top floor. H, for some unknown reason, was in a crib in a very, very distant part of the house. H always had a way of telling this story in a comedic way, but it is the hallmark of his "non-existence" in his family's life. A very domineering Mom, a quiet withdrawn, in many ways non-existent Dad, H grew up learning the critical importance of attending to women when they snapped their fingers. I was not much of a finger-snapper. Hadn't learned that women could have that power and I hadn't lived with any women like that. Fast forward to 2003 and enter OW. She had finger-snapping down to a science, knew it, used it and continues to thrive on it.

And my H's addiction was not something visible to the naked eye. So, unlike you, there was not cruelty on H's part to me. Over the lifetime of our marriage, I was incredibly lulled into finally having found safety with this kind, generous man who unbeknownst to me had a sexual addiction. When we first married, he had his secret under control. Why not? We were perfectly happy in the glow of new love and marriage. With stress came the need to act out. At first it was in more "harmless" ways, but as with any addiction, the smaller ways of acting out needed to expand. Like your H, my WS had his own mathematical A formula: addiction + stress + an older, agressive slut that resulted in "the perfect storm".

Sigh. And where are we now? You've asked several times over the last few months what's happening with us. I've always had the best intentions about filling you in on that, but the situation is so darned....fluid!! It'll feel great and then some new piece of old history comes out and I'm reeling again. So, its been hard to stop the story in its tracks and give a status report. I'm sorry for that. I keep wanting to be at a point that lasts longer than a few days, but we just haven't found stability.

However, if I look at where we were last year and where we are today, it IS better. I do believe on the rational side of my brain that there has been NC. Like you, there is a lot of information that I want H to give me that he can't. The A lasted too long and there are too many things forgotten with time, in the fog and/or because H desperately wants to propel forward.

H has given his all to reconciliation. He's in IC, MC, on meds for OCD and anxiety, he's talked with me a good 90% of the time when I've needed to, he's been transparent, read A books, and found ways to reconnect with me, the boys and the world in general. He has fought for this marriage.

He has made a lot of mistakes along the way, too. H has never been as honest as I've wanted/needed him to be. He lied a lot in the beginning and withheld information, making me dig through piles of papers and records to uncover the nature of his addiction, the length and horrible depths of the A. I was left feeling subhuman, digging through the garbage for the truth. But, at the point I found out about the A, he was almost completely broken and hollowed out by the A himself. I recognize he's been as honest as he could by. Some days, that's enough. Some days, I'm furious about that.

I was "lucky"; the OW was a horrible, whiny, selfish, childish, B&!@#CH. Had she been kind, loving and generous, I'm not sure how this story would have played out. But maybe if she had been that way, she wouldn't have been the kind of person that would have an A.

We do have an issue on the table we're having trouble finding resolution to, so that probably will find its way here on another thread. But, goodness! I've droned on. And you thought YOU'd bent my ear!!!! I'm suddenly reminded of the movie "Airplane" where a sweet lady asks the main character something about his life and he rambles on and on and on, until you finally are shown that the lady couldn't take it anymore and has put herself out of her misery! Thank you for indulging me in "The Chronicles of BlueIris".

In the meantime, Susan, please know when that ocean seems too deep, too tumultous and too foreboding, I will always share my lifeboat and preserver with you. And I have faith in you, your H, and the M that you are forging. ((hugs)) BlueIris

"We cannot wait for the storm to pass; we must learn to walk in the rain."

Dear Blue,
Thank you for your response. I too wonder about the similarity in backgrounds of the people here. As a result of all this, I have become very interested in psychology and have been reading books about therapy and how it works. In almost every book or article, I come across the idea that we will repeat and re-enact our history. If that is good, great. If there are dysfunctional issues, then there needs to be intervention of some kind to change the patterns.

It truly does sound like our family lives were similar. I can't say that my parents didn't love me. I know they did - unfortunately, my father, in particular, had no idea how to love. I think I learned the ability to love from my mother, though that came along with some big issues. I so deparately want to shed the cloak of my past - it is just way too heavy to wear anymore.

About the twists and turns in your recovery - so unfortunate and so normal. If the WS would only get that it is so much better to get it all out and that dribbling the pain out over time feels like torture that will never end. My H took over a year to get it all out, though he was remorseful and committed to our M from day 1. A brief history:

-On D-Day, I found love note to his OW, saying that she was the woman he should have married. I woke him up and he cried and acknowledged that he had an A with her 7 years earlier and that they had stayed in contact intermittently . He said that there were no other A's, even though I told him I found that unbelievable.

-A week later, H meets me and another couple for dinner. He is drunk and after humiliating myself and going through his receipts while standing on the street, it is clear he has been drinking with someone. Later that night, he admits he was drinking with his alcoholic secretary but just for the drinking. I tell him I'm done. He goes to Addictions Counselor and stops drinking.

-About a month later, I find the transcript for a novel, in which the hero has a name that rhymes with H's and has a hot A with a co-worker. H says he has no idea who sent him the novel.????????

-In answering my many questions, he finally admits that there were many dalliances (inappropriate drinking/talking) that did not involve sex except in one instance, when he had a ONS with another young girl who worked for him. He tries to get me to believe that one of the dalliances must have written the novel. I am sick, nauseous, hate him, love him.

-During this time, he is getting e-mails from a former colleague that are borderline inappropriate and I see that he is making lunch dates with her. That discovery was a huge setback. He claims they are just professional colleagues and idiot that I am, I accept that he can have lunch with her if he takes my call at lunch and says aloud that he loves me. He does.

-The e-mails from this colleague keep coming and finally he acknowledges that it is beyond normal professional contact and that this person was one of the dalliances and that it was hard for him to let go of all his playthings, particularly as they were about admiration and not sexual. Another big setback - I am convinced that he is incapable of being honest and that R is just another game to him. He started to send me all her e-mails and stopped responding. I would have preferred a NC note but he wouldn't - said it was presumptuous cause nothing really happened.

-Thoughout all this, he has been getting lovesick e-mails from his former secretary - she is a big drunk like he was. It is clear that the behavior was inapproprate and some of the notes were quite lewd....equally clear there was no sex. On the discovery of one of the more pornographic e-mails, I ran out of the apt, fell down on the street and still have scars on me knees from that fall. Spent that whole day crying at my desk. Who is this monster I was married to for over 20 years? H started to send me all her e-mails and stopped responding to them as well.

After about six months, the above was pretty much sorted out but that unexplained novel loomed large in my obsesssions. I begged him to tell me about it. He couldn't. Finally, about a year later, he told me about the sordid, sick relationship he had with a married client/writer in the backseat of our car - he had fallen so low that he was essentially selling himself for money. I literally threw up but finally felt that the nightmare was over.

Throughout, I watched H change into a new man as he bacame sober and attended AA and IC.

I think it is all out now or as much as will come out. Did the dalliances go further than he is telling me? Did he continue to have sex with OW over the seven years they stayed in contact? I cannot take a position of yes or no - I want to say no but, well, we know. However, it just doesn't matter anymore. And, H will not go digging around in his past anymore - it sickens him and he says he is no longer that person. This sometimes makes me angry but less and less.

I hope I didn't bore you with all the sordid details. Just wanted to let you know that my path has been anything but straight and rosy and that I truly understand how the path to a better M has littered with stinking, revolting garbage. But, we ARE getting to a better place. H was just too ashamed and unstable to be able to deal with it all at once. I hate him for that at the same time that I understand. Grrrrr!!!!