I'm driving myself crazy. All I can think of is how to approach the ow's H about the phone tapes. These are the tapes he told me he had recorded just about two years ago. The last time I had contact with ow's H was Dec 2005. I don't even know if he still has the tapes. But I can't stop obsessing over them.

I also know the only thing those tapes contain for me is pain. So why can't I stop running different scenario's of how to get them through my head.

Maybe it's because everyone involved in this (except Me) knows what those tapes contain.

My H and I are doing so much better now, dealing with the A. knowing what is on those tapes would only destroy what progress we have made over the last couple of weeks. So again what's with my obsesion over them?
Somebody shake some sense into me.

I think you are right, it is hard to have peace of mind when you know there are phone tapes of H & OW in existance, and you don't know what is on them...Does your H know they exist? Would your H tell you what was on them if you asked, or answer any other A questions? Good luck I hope everything with you and H continues to move forward well, with you getting your questions answered, so that you have the peace of mind, knowing that he isn't keeping things from you

Sorry this got so long...I guess your situation struck a chord with me. Hope this helps.

My H finally got me credit card bills and I wasn't afraid to look at them because he said there were not surprises. But, he thought that I was expecting to see more activity than what I already knew about because of a discussion we had where I said its not important if there's more activity, it's important that I know the truth. He took that to mean I was expecting more activity. So he gave me the bills without any warning that there was more activity. I flipped out.

So then we got to the phone bills. This time we took it a little slower. I gave him a list of what the worst things I could expect to see on the phone bills was and told him I had prepared to hear any of those things. (Long calls, calls in the middle of the night, my calls getting interrupted by hers, calls during my birthday, and more than one phone number). I asked him if there was one or more of those things on there and if there was anything else I didn't think of on there that would be a surprise.

He spent a lot of cash which he needs to explain because there is nothing like a credit card bill to show the detail. I am going to follow the same process. Because I was able to prepare, we kept the conversation mostly rational, cool and calm with little bitterness involved. I wasn't perfect but I definitely didn't flip out. On a scale of 1 to 10 I was an 11 seeing the credit card bills and a 2 seeing the phone bills.

That doesn't really answer your question except to say that if you do ask for the tapes, this was an approach I took. And, by preparing myself, I felt more in control of the situation. It turns out that he had affairs with 2 women instead of just one. In my mind, that confirmed for me that he didn't fall in love with someone else and somehow that makes it not so bad. Or, I'm just in shock and haven't quite faced the new information yet.

We worked on facing it together and delivering the information in a way that we both had control over it. He knew I was prepared for the worst. I had a good idea what to expect.

The reason you are obsessing is because you need total transparency. I told my H that I needed him to get the credit card bills and phone bills and write the truth on a piece of paper and put it in envelope. That I wasn't sure that I wanted all of the detail today or this month or this year. But, I wanted to know that if he got hit by a car and died in a few weeks that the story would be there for me to see. That I wouldn't show up at his funeral with 6 women there that I didn't know. I deserved to know the truth and he needed to face what he did by going through the process of putting it in writing.

Maybe you just haven't been ready to face that level of detail for 2 years and now you are ready. That's ok. Someone else here told me that the obsession or need for transparency has to do with knowing that you have forgiven him for everything that he has done and not just half of it. You want full disclosure. You may still have some trust issues with him and this should be evidence that only supports and reiterates what he has already told you. If it is, you will only be introducing a few more triggers - her voice, his voice talking to her, certain words they chose to use, nicknames, etc. That is the cost of listening. But, the reward should be that you don't hear anything that you wouldn't expect to hear from someone who had the relationship he described.

If he's truly remorseful at this time, listening to those tapes will open up old wounds for both of you. But, they are sitting there like dirt in the bottom of the wound that is infecting the wound so it won't really heal. Sometimes you have to open the wound to get to the healing.

The other option is to just let it go. There are probably other pieces of evidence and things that happened that you don't know about. Maybe this should just fall into that category. I don't know if anyone else ever said they just let known evidence go. I don't think I could.

I let some mall things go like - I really don't want to know OW#2's name. OW#1's name is Grace which is more commonly used in the English language than you might think! I don't want to see her naked pictures on Myspace. That kind of stuff just doesn't help, its not going to make a difference in our healing. It doesn't tell me any truths.

So make sure that you know why it is that you are listening to those tapes. You will get a lot of triggers, I think so it better be worth that price.

Ask yourself this..
1. Is there something that you could hear on there that would change your decision to stay? If so - exactly what is that?
2. What do you expect to hear on those tapes based on how your H described the relationship? Can you live with hearing that?

Here's some other things to think about:
Could you have someone else listen to it and confirm that what you expect to hear is what you hear?

Could you have someone else at least transcribe it putting it into writing so at least you protect yourself to some degree from his voice and certain tones of voice he might use with you in intimate moments don't become triggers?

<<Could you have someone else at least transcribe it putting it into writing so at least you protect yourself to some degree from his voice and certain tones of voice he might use with you in intimate moments don't become triggers?>>

What Hope wrote here may be a good solution. Let me explain a bit more. Hearring and seeing your WH in action so to speak, is WAY DIFFERENT than reading it. It pack less of a punch. For example, when I hired the PI, I read the transcript of what happened first before I saw what he taped. While the tape and the trancript matched, it was a lot less painful to read what had happened than to actually hear and see what had happened. It's almost like you are reading a novel and it is happening to someone else and it isnt your H. I know, it is not 100% reality, but it can save you a world of hurt (not that it wont hurt, but it can hurt less) and you will still know what was said and what transpired. Part of the pain of infidelity is not knowing what really took place in the A, but it is also the most painful part when you do find out, if you know what I mean. So either way it hurt, but at least you will be informed,a nd can do so in a slightly less painful way.

Boy, I hope that made some sense!


~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

You have all made a great deal of sense. Thank you for your advice. Even though I already know what the effects will be it helps to hear from you. Having it written down I hadn't thought about and I think that would be the route I take. Thanks. If I get the tapes in the first place.
I'm debating if I want to open that door. Two years ago the H told me I can call him if I needed to, I'm just not sure he ment two years down the road. Does everyone think it would be wrong for me to call and ask if he still has them. I don't know where their relationship is right now and I don't want to cause any problems or open any wounds that may have been closed.
If I had them I probably wouldn't listen to them I would just feel better having access to them. If that makes any sense. I'm sure in time I would listen. My wh says he can't remember a thing about the A. Where they went to restaurants. I'm sure that information would be on the tapes. Granted he has a terrible memory, (pot tends to do that to the brain)but he has to be able to remember something. I have gotten no info about their relationship. Only what I dug up on my own and what ow's H told me.
I'm rambling now I could go on all day about this so I will cut it off now. And end with thank you so much for the awsome advice.
God Bless

Laura,

After infidelity you have to do what you have to do for YOU. If you need to know what is on those tapes, two days, two years, or whenever down the road, so that you no longer have to wonder and you can move forward then that is what you need to do. It is up to you...not your H...or any of us here. All I can tell is to ask yourself the hard questions as other have pointed out. Will it change the way you feel about your marriage? Will it meet a need you have? Will it help you move forward? Then go from there Laura...do what is best for YOU.

On a personal note, it would be very hard for me not to know what is on the tapes and being the only one left out of the loop. I can say that now because I am stronger than I was after d-day, but back then I wouldnt have been able to handle it...now I can. Maybe you are stronger now too than you were then. Maybe now is the right time for you to explore this option.

Take care....

~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

Ok...I hate the whole I don't remember thing. I don't believe it. Maybe its just me, but I was single 3 years ago and I dated someone before I met my husband and I remember both hotels, the movie we saw, the car we rented, the song he played on the guitar, his bedroom techniques...shall I go on? I mean get real! You're happy, you're excited, you're having fun! I don't know if its a girl thing or what, but I just don't forget that stuff. I don't buy the whole I don't remember thing, I just don't buy it for one minute.

But, Hope, the memories you are talking about are fond memories of a time you weren't doing anything wrong. Believe me, I am INCREDIBLY frustrated by what my H doesn't remember. However, I know that there is incredible shame, guilt, remorse and we've even reached the stage of horror on his part, for what he was doing.

How remembering and forgetting happen are different for different people. There is some minutia that is just lost in my H's length of affair. Sadly, there are places he went and things he did with OW that were personally hurtful to me because they were places that I thought were special to us. I've learned that they were special to me, but not a shared precious place that H was willing or cognizant of "protecting" from he and the OW. But there are also the memories that H has tried to forget. Its very hard to always be sympathetic to a WS's recovery path - even a FWS, but somehow, they have to find a way to look at themselves in the mirror. For a lot of them, I think that means doing whatever it takes internally to flush those memories to the darkest recesses of their psyche. That doesn't help us BS who require the information. But I understand a portion of the WS's desire and ability to forget.

Should they be trying to remember to help us BS out? Its hard for me to answer that objectively. I am one of those BS that wants every scrap of knowledge and info regarding the A. With each piece of data, I feel that as its brought out into the daylight, it kills the A that much more. But can I require my H to access everything in his brain? It seems improbable.

I decided to post this just to throw out there that I don't think WS are withholding information to be spiteful. I recognize that a lot of them withhold information knowingly, and it saddens and angers me. But there are also the very real possibilities of them just being human. Sometimes, I have trouble remembering what I had for dinner last night. It just seems more healthy to me instead of running to the "doesn't it make ya so darned angry when they..." place to try and understand the rainbow of possibilities of what may be happening.

BlueIris

"We cannot wait for the storm to pass; we must learn to walk in the rain."

I thought about that after I logged out...always thinking....it never stops.

I'm trying to think of something that I was so ashamed of doing that I had to push it away and forget. But, I just can't think of anything....but, maybe that's because I just forgot. ha, ha.

Anyways, my H was forgetting and not remembering 2 minutes after confession, 2 days after confession, 1 week after confession. Not remembering is a technique of being evasive and hiding information from me and as you say probably from himself too.

But once again, the forgetting is for his self preservation, his self protection, its all about him, him, him. Selfish Selfish Selfish.

And, so I am being selfish and protecting me and giving him no pity. Face the music buddy, be a man, do something for me and help me recover because you think I deserve it. Do something for me. Show me you give a hoot, feel the pain, face the pain. Do SOMETHING for me for once.

I'm so good at giving him no pity...not. Can I just be mad at the forgetting thing for a while?

"Can I just be mad at the forgetting thing for a while?"

Definitely. I share your anger and frustration. However.....

Just a note from little ole me. Hope, you often advise when talking with a WS to not go to the angry place. To try and talk calmly and rationally and not show that part of you. I wonder if you have more anger that festers inside of you, because you are protecting yourself and your H from those feelings during your conversations?

You know that I've raised this before after some very strongly worded posts when I read threads that sounded more like a blanket statement of how one should act when confronting or talking to a WS. I'm a believer in letting my H see whatever feelings I have. I can't say that's the right thing to do for anyone else. I do know it feels, for me, like a more honest way for me to live, a more honest way to interact with my H and a way in which I don't feel my emotions bubbling in a pressure cooker. It doesn't mean I have to be abusive, but our relationship should allow for my feelings to show.

I know you feel strongly about your way, too. I just thought it was worth asking you the question: Why are you asking to be mad for a while? (The question is asked with great fondness for you and respect) BlueIris

"We cannot wait for the storm to pass; we must learn to walk in the rain."

I do show my feelings in our conversations - but maybe you are right that I have turned them off too much opting for the opposite of being abusive which I was being when I flipped out on him when looking at the credit cards. I'm just trying to be more respectful so I can actually get him to open up and tell me the truth. When I get mad or yell he totally shuts down and then I don't get what I need. He asked for a S&M stop word for goodness sakes! I've decided he can't have one...if I can't turn off my pain, he doesn't get to turn off the pain I deliver to him. But, I also decided that I really don't want to thrash on him like that...it doesn't really help - him, me, or our marriage.

We've been together for 3 years and never had a fight. We don't know how to communicate. We don't know how to have a conflict and resolve it. This affair is our first fight. So I guess I am learning how to deal with it by going to extremes.

Can I just be mad? - Let me rephrase....can I just stomp my feet on the ground, curl up fists, shake my head and have a tantrum for a minute over this "forgetfulness" stuff ...and then I'll grow up out of the two year old phase and put on my adult maturity - who I really want to be - face again and get back to repairing instead of deconstructing my relationship?

I hear you..."Yes, I can be mad, temper it for my own good, but make sure my H knows how it frustrates me because if I don't tell him then I'm the one not communicating and I'm not helping the healing."

Thanks Blue Iris - totally fair question.

The forgetting thing is something that drove me nuts.
He could recall a hotel bill where I stayed once during his A, but couldn't recall how much he spent on her... It still drives me insane, but not in a hurtful way anymore.

I fully fully support letting your H know how angry, upset you are...it is about your feelings, and you need to communicate how you feel.


I recently read about a woman (BS) who used an example of a police officer coming to the WS and saying your S died ...the WS asks the officer what happened...how..when..where..wants all the details and all the officer can say is Thats all you need to know..S is dead... sorry..her H could relate to that example ..


Laura,
I can relate to wanting to know the contents of the conversations...A hard decision...
it was awful to hear the OW thank my H, and say what a wonderful Man he was..on a phone message..not sure I could listen to my FWS talking to OW..telling her how wonderful she was..I know they had those conversations..sexual references, etc...


(((hugs)))

Pat









"Time is precious, but truth is more precious than time."