It will be exactly 3 months on tuesday, and in my mind the next 3 months are something of a crunch time. Not that it actually matters, but adultery can only be cited as a reason for divorce if filed up to 6 months after DDay. And making a decision in the first few months was discouraged, so I'm looking at 3-6 months period as making my mind up what I'm doing...

And... right now its confusing.

I can't figure out what is going on at all. We went out for a meal last night and I was pretty close to walking out before we ordered, and she was close to tears. Put simply, things look a mess. There is no communication, and her actions are driving me up the wall - but not A related.

A thought is dawning on me:

"What if I'm caught up in all the A stuff, and not noticing that I'm trying to save a M that shouldn't be saved?"

Do you ever feel like the intensity and emotion of it all sweeps you along? Do you ever have that pause moment, where you just go - but hold on, this isn't the A interfering, this is just us not clicking.

This could all be wrong, and I hope it is, it could just be a phase. But her communication, which was always bad, has taken a nose dive. This worried me that there could be another A lurking or similar (windows & walls) - but I can't find the clues. There are no cues that I can latch on to. Most significantly there aren't any availible times for it, I know where she is, and everything matches up. She's not even spending hours on the computer or anything... it's weird.

I'm reading the Not Just friends now, and I can see a lot of what happened. What it looks like now though is all walls and no windows. Can someone be like that?

Adam,

While I agree with having adultery being a viable reason for divorce, I think 6 months, is way too soon to be able to decide if you want to exercise it or not. But be that as it may, this is where you are. I wonder if it is after 6 months, can you use another reason? Also, if the A is ongoing through any period up and after the 6 months, can it still be used as a reason, where does one have to stop the beginning point of the 6 month count down. Sorry, I’m kind of thinking on paper.

There is no communication, and her actions are driving me up the wall - but not A related.

But Adam, her actions are A related. It is about who she is and why she is, that allows her to enter an A. If she allows herself to not communicate well, then she provides herself with justification. In her mind she says, “I can’t talk with Adam, he doesn’t understand me, therefore it is OK to talk with other men about intimate things.”

"What if I'm caught up in all the A stuff, and not noticing that I'm trying to save a M that shouldn't be saved?"

Unfortunately this is a trap we all get caught in. We are so desperate to save the marriage that we are not really thinking about how we will be in the marriage. A different twist on this is…Quite often a BS spends so much energy trying to get the WS to see, or get it, that if the WS does get it, they are now disappointed in what they are left with. There is so much they weren’t seeing because of their need to either win the WS back or get them to see.

Do you ever feel like the intensity and emotion of it all sweeps you along? Do you ever have that pause moment, where you just go - but hold on, this isn't the A interfering, this is just us not clicking?

I think these are normal questions we all ask ourselves at some point Adam. Only you can provide the answers. My youngest son has been faced with a similar problem as yours. He chose to end the relationship. Although I would have supported him if he wanted to reconcile it, I believe in my heart that ending his 3 year relationship was the best choice for him. He is young, with much to offer a young woman who is able to fully appreciate him. I just don’t think this young lady, all though I like her, is capable of giving him this at this time or in the fore seeable future.

I can tell you Adam, that I spent 20 years trying to get my husband to communicate better with me and to see how my side mattered just as much as his. Although we had many good times, and 2 beautiful children, now young men, the pain I suffered could have been prevented had I heeded the red flags early on in the relationship and gone my own way. In the end, you could say I triumphed, he gets it now, he sees, but the cost was not worth the years of frustration and pain. I don’t hold him responsible for what I paid, I hold myself.

This worried me that there could be another A lurking or similar (windows & walls) - but I can't find the clues. There are no cues that I can latch on to. Most significantly there aren't any availible times for it, I know where she is, and everything matches up. She's not even spending hours on the computer or anything... it's weird.

There is no way for any of us to know if there is an A or a Potential A going on. We can not monitor them 24/7. That is why their actions are so important. Your W continues A friendly behavior, that is a serious red flag.

What it looks like now though is all walls and no windows. Can someone be like that?

Yes. Keeping emotional distance from a spouse is typical WS behavior.

I’m sorry Adam, I know my answers seem bleak, but it is so much better when we look at things as they are, instead of trying to make them seem more appealing, making excuses for how they are. People can and do change, but they have to want to and see a need. Do you think your W truly wants to change her behaviors to better the marriage? Does she feel a need, or does she feel the problems are stemming from how you are reacting to things?

Ami

 

Hi, Adam. I can hear a lot of different feelings in your voice, and know that as you wrote this, you weren't in a very good place.

I want you to know that I remember very clearly going through what you're experiencing. Both my H and I would have these periods of feeling hopelessness: "is it really worth it?", "who is this person I married?", "now that I really see what they're capable of, can I really continue on with this", "besides the A, I now see my spouse as someone that maybe I shouldn't be with".

There's a lot wrapped up in that. Part of it I think is being battle weary. This is one of the most draining experiences any of us will find ourselves in. Marital recovery after betrayal makes us question our judgment, actions,...pretty much every step we take and every step our spouse is taking. Its very difficult living under that microscope.

Part of these feelings come from moving out of the numb phase and seeing clearly who this person we married is. During periods where the shock of the A wears off, there are moments when we question everything about our partner. We watch how they are with shopkeepers, children, just generally in the world, because as Ami says, its not about whether or not the specific A is over or not; its about who the WS is.

I don't have as much time as I would like to babble on here, but I agree with Ami that its much too early to be able to judge clearly as to whether or not a marriage should get a thumbs up or down. Its so unfortunate your laws have this arbitrary 6 month rule. However, in terms of safeguarding yourself legally, I've been reading lately of people who have gotten a post-nup. I don't know nearly enough about them myself, but am wondering if that possibility exists for you, and if it would give you some piece of mind to have that legal protection in place.

Lastly, my H (during our marriage) became very much a wall with no windows person. I am petrified at his ability to do that and to live that way while I was clueless to it. Since DDay, a whole heck of a lot of therapy, talking, crying, reading, etc, he is not that way now. Transformation is possible. A WS has to be willing to own their mistakes, look at themselves, find the patterns in their lives that made them choose destruction (of the marriage, of themselves), and then be willing to work very hard to change those patterns. Its very much an on-going process. But self-transformation is possible. We can't will them to do it. We need to look at ourselves to see what patterns we've been running in ourselves.

But I want you to hear very clearly, change is possible. Perhaps the point you're at now is that you see clearly for the M to continue, it will require your WS changing and its hard to trust if she's willing to do the work required or that if she even sees the need of it.

I'll be thinking of you today, Adam. I hope that you can find a way to give yourself a mental break from this. You understandably seem depleted. ((hugs)) BlueIris


"We cannot wait for the storm to pass; we must learn to walk in the rain."

I just had some thoughts...not really of any help to Adam. Sorry.

What Adam said about having to file within 6 months uciting adultery got me thinking. Where I live you have to prove Adultery, and it wont get you anything more in the divorce or even be granted based on Adultery. The only thing that filing that way gets you is that it can be listed on the divorce degree as the reason for the divorce. And it will cost you a lot more in attorney fees as well. And as far as I know there is no time limit to file under any grounds here. Most people here file under "irreconcilable differences" which pretty much covers everything. And most states here are 50/50 states unless you have a prenuptial agreement. I think this is another reason why many BS's feel such a sense of unfairness related to the A, even if the marriage ends in divorce.

We have talked about this many times on the boards, how Adultery used to be considered a crime and was looked down on by society. It used to work somehwat as a deturant, but not anymore. And in many countries it is still punishable by death. But here in the US, most people dont have to worry about prison, fines, divorce settlements being bigger, or being shunned by society as a result of their infidelity. And in many cases, people used to even be fired for having office affairs....that hardly happens these days (unless there is a scandal of some sort). They just move you around, or worse, act like nothing happened. Surely affairs limit productivity in the work place, and at the least are a distraction which causes the company money. For those WS's who hold public office, they are not only cheating on their BS, they are also betraying the people who believed enough in them to vote for them. The effects of affairs are far reaching, even when there is no visble consequences for the crime of Adultery....there is always a price! Unfortunately the BS pays the biggest price of all.

~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

Divorce is a high cost - emotionally and financially even at 50/50. I had an awful lot to lose when I asked for a divorce and if I'd had to pay what the law allowed for, it would have been brutal. Because my H was older, I could have had to pay alimony for the remainder of his life. So even though it seems like in our situation where the affairs happened that we should be entitled to more, realize that even 50% is huge and requires lifestyle changes for both parties. Now, when I looked at the finances and the lifestyle change...at that point, I was so lost, over my marriage, etc. it didn't matter. My happiness was worth any price. You know that your spouse is only thinking of their happiness when they are in the A, they are not thinking of consequences, and I think the last thing they are thinking about is getting caught...at least when they get started.

Further - the worse the punishment, the harder they will work at hiding the crime. If the cause was death, how often would they be smarter about hiding it, would they just ask for a divorce and then go do it, or would it actually deter them - and then they just remain unhappy in their marriage.

Ultimately, the core problems still exist in both lives and the marriage. The punishment rarely fits the crime or "pays for it". Affairs aren't fair.

Not sure why I felt compelled to write this. Just in a mood I guess. Sorry, Adam I think this took the thread even further from your original question.

As for the divorce law, it doesn't really matter here either - I was just borrowing from it as a yard stick if you like. In the UK the divorce settlement is based entirely upon need of the two seperated lives and not on the cause for divorce, as such there is little reason to use the adultery mechanism. However, if the other person refuses to grant a divorce quickly then you can use it to speed things along. The time limit counts from either the end of the A or from the last DDay, whichever was later. The unfortunate legal term for going over that date is that the BS is deemed to have "condoned" the affair.

I tried to speak to her about it a bit, and we did talk a little, sometime ineffectively, and sometimes effectively. She agreed with the comment that she now had only walls and no windows, although her initial reaction to trying to explain the walls windows thing was quite strong dismission (almost angry). She also said that it was a "stupid book" etc. When pushed on this she said that she hated stuff like that because it was a constant reminder. From her side she said that she missed being able to talk about other things, and shied away from talking to me because she feared every conversation would lead back to this.

We're going out tonight (to a musical - footloose, although she never saw the film, which is probably a crime) so we are still being "coupley" in our own ways. We even had a water fight the other day, which shows just how grown up we are

sigh

I suppose part of the feeling at 3 months is that that is half way to 6 months, and I had expected to have a clearer picture of where I'm going by now. I never expected to be "over it" but I expected things to be less confusing now. It's like I know I've got a long road ahead, but I'm still wandering around in a forest, looking for the road.

Adam, I expected that too, thought by two months that I should be in a position where I could forgive and let it go. Looking back its amazing to me. Part of the issue is that the trauma isn't all there at dday, it keeps coming with everything you need to know. There are questions you have to ask to begin integrating what happening into how you see your life, your partner, your M, but every answer is a new trauma. I guess I did find though that the trauma of feeling hit in the chest each time lessened - I started hearing things from a more detached vantage point - but not at 2 months! Probably at two years. MM

I know that each person is different (even if we have a lot of similarities). Some people heal faster than others. Some take more time than most. It has a lot to do with the individual and the circumstances. For example, it seems like a situation with a wayward spouse who can't end the affair is going to dictate a longer recovery than one with a wayward spouse that ends the right away, or has already ended the affair, then turns around and becomes totally transparent and accountable to the betrayed spouse. Similarly, a betrayed spouse who's personality lets them come to acceptance of the affair quickly will recover sooner.

I thought we'd be recovered within 12 months of D-day. Best case, I thought we'd be OK at six months. However, I was completely wrong, because a few of the assumptions I made were wrong and because I underestimated the difficulty to accept the most disturbing aspects of my wife's affair. Six months easily turned into six years, because it too about that time for my wife to finally get to a point where she was able to fully support reconciliation. Before that she was too defensive, too uncooperative, and too demanding of her own wants for me to even begin to trust that she had my interests at heart in her day to day activities.

I believe to become a wayward spouse in the first place you need a level of self-focus that is higher than healthy. Once d-day occurs it's not easy to flip-flop on that and suddenly become focused on your spouse in the way that is needed (or at least the way that I needed) for a reconciliation to really happen. Some wayward spouses never make any progress at all toward this. My wife seemed fine at first, but she didn't grow in her ability to focus outside herself, and the remaining areas of selfishness left me increasingly frustrated. Eventually I learned to share this frustration with her, which I explained was taking us toward divorce, and that it was her responsibility to make changes that would redo my perceptions of her that had come from the affair. I explained this on several occasions, because even as progress was made, the frustration was not removed. Each time I explained the frustration, I told her that this was not a threat, because I wasn't going to run out to seek divorce if she didn't do some specific thing in that moment, but instead that if the situation continued without improvement, I'd eventually give up and seek a divorce, and when that day came there'd be no turning back.

The three most important events that contributed to her change was (1) revealing evidence that she was emotionally involved with the OM, which she had been denying (~ year 3)
(2) Finding a new counselor who held her accountable for the affair, and worked specifically on her tendency to lie (this change came after heated discussion where I explain for the first time that we were headed for divorce if she didn't make some changes, about year 6.)
(3) She gave a 'full' confession, about year 7

However, there are still a few issues. For one, my wife tended to put of doing important things for our relationship. For example, around year 3 or 4 I took of my wedding ring, and I told her I wasn't going to put it back on until I felt that she had truly recommitted to the marriage. As part of that she was supposed to ask me occasionally (once or twice a year) if I was ready. She asked one time, but never again in two years. Finally I gave up in frustration, and put the ring back on just to alleviate those feelings. When I did it I told her that she had given up an opportunity to show me her commitment. She still does things like this, where she passes up opportunities to make her feelings clearly understood, and it's disappointing.

Adam, you get to make the decisions in your situation, but in my experience and from what you've written, it's going to take a lot longer than three months before your wife even starts to really address the issues that brought her to the affair and it will test ever ounce of love that you've held for her. That's not to say that it's impossible, because it's not, but it takes patience and determination to do it.

TomJ

Tom,

Just a question for you...did you ever ask your wife why she didn't ask you again to put on your ring? when you didn't respond positively the first time she asked ..my reaction would be hurting after being told not yet...and I am not going to suffer thru that hurt again...

my reaction is based on H losing his ring and being told he didn't want to look for another ring...the couple of times I mentioned the ring he was negative so I haven't mentioned it again.

So I tend to avoid things or conversations that may hurt me...it is really hard to put yourself in a situation where you know you may be ending up with hurt feelings.

Pat

"Time is precious, but truth is more precious than time."

Pat:

Not to hijack Adam's thread here, but to answer your question, she told me that she was "waiting for the right moment". To her that meant that she'd done all the things she felt she needed to do in order to have the "right" to ask for it. However, we had several discussion about this along the way, and I told her how frustrating it was to me. I felt the situation was more urgent than her progress was making it appear. In addition, the first time she asked, I told her that I wasn't ready yet, and that she should ask again in a few months. So, after much more than a few months passed, I mentioned it... she told me something like she was waiting for the "right" moment, then after a couple more periods of a "few" months, I said something again, then some more... finally I got so frustrated waiting for her to act, I decided the best thing for me was to take it off the table. Since I did that it hasn't been a source of frustration, so I think I did the right thing for me.

My conclusion from all this is that while my wife wants romance, she doesn't really like being romantic. She is much, much more comfortable receiving romantic jestures than giving them. I've known this about her to some degree since the start of our relationship, but the affair has brought this to my attention as it has with so many other things. I should add that romance is a sticky issue b/c during the start of of the affair it was something that she told the OM she desired more of in her life. Not that I'm all that non-romantic, because I'd occasionally taken her weekend getaways and I gave her lots of affection throughout our marriage. However, having a house full of kids and living daily life can get in the way of finding opportunites for those special times, I guess she wanted more than I was providing, probably more than any realistic marriage could provide.

TomJ

Adam wrote:

"What if I'm caught up in all the A stuff, and not noticing that I'm trying to save a M that shouldn't be saved?"

Ami replied:
Unfortunately this is a trap we all get caught in. We are so desperate to save the marriage that we are not really thinking about how we will be in the marriage. A different twist on this is…Quite often a BS spends so much energy trying to get the WS to see, or get it, that if the WS does get it, they are now disappointed in what they are left with. There is so much they weren’t seeing because of their need to either win the WS back or get them to see.


Wow Ami that is so succinct that it stuns me and makes me wonder if I was in that position once
Great post as usual, Ami you are incredible!

James