Hi to all. I posted this past Friday because I needed a shoulder and so many of you gave me one. I found out friday (just past the 4 week dday mark) that my husband totally minimized the frequency and intensity of his A.
Here's is where I am having such a hard time. During the past 4 weeks I completely believed that he was coming clean on everything. I especially thought that because our counselor advised him that that is what needed and had to be done to start earning my trust back. So, fool me believed he was telling me the truth. When I found out friday that the A was soooo much more involved I felt like I was rediscovering the A all over again. He told me that he didn't want me to be even more crushed. These past 4 weeks have been nothing but more lies.
He comes home today after traveling since sunday and we are to have our "talk". I told him before he left that I don't see how we can work. He still maintains that he wants to spend the rest of his life with me and will do whatever it takes.
I just can't see how I am:
1. going to ever believe anything he says again
2. going to have sex with him knowing that he felt he needed to hide there intense sex life from me because it might hurt my self-esteem. DAMN RIGHT IT DOES!!!
3. going to ever look into his eyes again knowing he was looking right back into mine these past 4 weeks and lied....Right into my eyes.
To all you veteran ddayers......I want so much to believe in his words. I guess I can see why he didn't tell me everything. But, does the lying stop and from what you have been through and where you are now was believing in your H worth it? Is the M so much better now? I am very confused. I just can't take how he can lie right into my eyes. How do I get over the images I put into my mind about him and the OW now that I know that it was and meant so much more.
Since friday I am irrationally seeing everything he says as a lie or an ulterior motive. I wasn't irrational with my thoughts these past 4 weeks but now I am.
It's pretty common that the wayward spouse minimizes the depth of the affair. My wife did that for three years after D-day. She only relented when I showed her the emails she sent to the OM, in the order she exchanged them. By seeing them in sequence the tone and intent of her communication was clear and undeniable.
It seem like most WS don't initially see the additional damage they are doing to the trust by minimizing the affair, given the frequency that it seems to occur. However, it's something that can be worked through.
It is first and foremost the responsibility of the WS to establish personal boundaries for honesty, transparency, and accountability that continue without interruption. Without that there is no chance that you would be able to rebuild trust, at least not without a lobotomy. Once the WS does this, the responsibility of the betrayed spouses is to work with their own fears to allow trust to be given, as far as is reasonable. I believe trust can only be restored gradually over a long period of time.
The fact that your husband admitted to this on his own is a big positive step toward rebuilding trust. Now it is important that he immediately share any other important details before another betrayal of trust is committed. I recommend that he write out a full confession, one that is as comprehensive as possible, then read it to you. This something where a good personal counselor could provide an great resource.
I believe successful recovery is almost guaranteed when the wayward spouse is truly repentant for their actions in the affair, which means both confession and change of everything they did to damage the marriage. It seems that the cases where recovery fails are the ones where the wayward spouse does not confess and does not make the changes needed to begin (possibly for the first time) a truly healthy relationship. Of course, this does not take away from the betrayed spouse’s choice to forgive the past behavior and to choose or reject reconciliation.
"Of course, this does not take away from the betrayed spouse’s choice to forgive the past behavior and to choose or reject reconciliation"
Ahhh, now that is a profound statement.....
He is on his way from the airport right now and I feel like it is 4 weeks ago when I was waiting for him to come back from that trip so we could have the "talk" (He was on business travel - OW was also with him - when I found out about the A and confronted him on the phone and he admitted it. I had to wait 5 loooong days before I could "talk" to him face to face).
Thank you for your comments TomJ. I will keep them in mind when talking to him tonight. What another long night it will be.
I was so nervous before when you posted that more details on the A were coming out. Part of me chided myself because it felt like I was transferring my experience onto you..which would not be fair. I'm so sorry that your H has decided to be one in another string of common WS's that cannot be completely honest.
I am slightly past our 1 year DDay anniversary. All things considered (and there's A LOT to consider) we're doing remarkably well. This is despite the fact that originally H told me the A was 6 monthes long (it was 3 years long), that nothing else had been going on with anyone else (oops! what about all the internet porn and chat that it turned out had been going on?), when the internet stuff came out, I was advised that had started about 4 years ago (oops! That started prior to our marriage).
It has been a huge, horrible struggle to get my H to completely open up. It has required, for the most part, that I find the pieces and then come to him with that information. Its been a demeaning process that I do not feel should ever in a million years have been my responsibility.
Now, all that said, H has had an immeasurable amount of personal work to do on himself to face all his personal demons. And he has done the work and continues to do the work. I cannot imagine how he looked himself in the mirror when he finally came out of the fog and understood what he had been doing with his life and the life of his wife and children.
So, part of me has had to face that this man has been as honest as he could be with me. Somedays that is enough. Somedays it makes me furious. Somedays, I'm just scared that there's more to learn and I haven't found the clues yet.
But the biggest part of my message to you, Ellen, is that you and your H can survive this. You can, with time, and effort on both your parts not only salvage but surpass what you had. You can't do it alone. You can't do it for him. He's going to have to dig down deep and face you and all his demons. And he's going to have to talk with you like he's never talked with you before. But it CAN happen.
I'm not enough of a veteran to feel I can say we survived. But we're in the process. The lies DO stop. That only happens when (a) he lives honestly and (b) when there's nothing left hidden from the past.
I'm hoping things go well when he arrives back home. I know its going to be an emotional night. Try not to let your emotions run the conversation, but instead let them have balance with your logical side. Your H needs to understand that continued lying AND ommission do continued damage to you and the marriage on top of the damage already inflicted by what happened during the A. Ommission and silence are new fresh betrayals that will extend your recovery time, and who wants to go through this hell any longer than we have to?
Let us know how everything goes. We're rooting for you and for your marriage (and we're rooting for your H to see the light). ((hugs)) BlueIris
"We cannot wait for the storm to pass; we must learn to walk in the rain."
This message has been edited by BlueIris22 on Sep 18, 2007 9:47 PM
I know (we know) how it's hard to get a grip on the lying thing. I will be approaching my 2 year Dday in December. I can't let go of the fact that H looked into my eyes and swore on the lives of my kids (our kids) that he was innocent. I don't know what to tell you except that it is hard to look at them and believe anything they say. I don't know how to get over that, or even how to ever forgive it. Sorry I wasn't much help, but it seems like they will say anything to not get caught or "hurt" us more. What could possible hurt more then your H sleeping with another woman?
I said a pray for you tonight I really want you to have a good talk with your h.
I wanted to suggest you print out Jacobs letter I would have liked to have it at the time for my h to read. It really tells how much we need the truth. I'm behind you I'm sorry I haven't been here to post but I have read what is going on and I really do feel for you. (()) my arms are around you I give you what strength i have. Your marriage will remain in my prayers.
God Bless
Laura
7 years ago I learned what hell feels like.
Truth ALL the truth takes time. They believe what we don't know won't hurt us.
Healing takes learning. A very wise woman once wrote here " baby steps" Healing is an incredibly slow, long learning process. You both have to say goodbye to the old marraige and CHOOSE to build a new one.
The first year is only about survival. You need to take care of your basic needs. Things like breahting, eating and sleeping. Exercise is a big help as are talking and writing here CONSTANTLY many times a day. Chat is a great help too.
In time he will learn that ALL the truth is essential if he wants to stay married to you. However, they think it is too painful for us to hear. Our therapist told my H the only chance we had was " brutal honesty". That phrase worked for him. I got the brtual facts. Years later my therapist told me he never thought we would make it.
My h was too disconnected. ( we call it " the fog")
He thought I was too wounded.
It took an INCREDIBLE amount on my husband's part to fight FOR our marraige. I was hysterical and in agony unable to have an intelligent conversation. I kept asking the SAME questions over and over and over... He kept saying how terribly sorry he was, he loved me and wanted our marraige more than anything. I did not believe him. How could you behave like this and love me. I had thought we had a wonderful loving marraige... so did all our friends and so did he!
I learned an affair has NOTHING to do with the marraige and everything to do with the betrayer. It is an emptiness inside of them. They look to fill the missing piece with someone else. It never works.
You have to earn your self esteem. As do we after this horror. I used to feel lower than the scum on OW's shoe.
7 years later I feel like a human being again. One who has been through hell and survived.
How did I do it?
Therapy, this board and my wonderful friends here, and talking endlessly to my H. He dug deep within himself deeper than he has EVER done in his life. He started writing a journal every day. He hates to write. He learned how to be introspective. He has never given his feelings a second thought before this. He analyzed what happened and why. Then he shared every word with me. We talked NON STOP for yesrs. Then he went faithfully to therapy for as long as I felt it was necessary. He felt he could stop much sooner than I , but the new rules were mine to make. He has vowed to spend the rest of his life making this up to me. I told him he could never do enough. However, I chose to let him EARN that chance. I have never regretted giving him that second chance.
He has always been my best friend, and the love of my life. I always thought I was his. Now, I know and my therapist agreed I always have been. My h just lost himsself and looked in all the wrong places for self fullfillment. As I said before, you earn your self respect you don't find it elsewhere.
Chooseing to work on the marraige is a choice YOU and HE both can make. Just konw it takes an incredible amount of hard work and healing does happen. THere are three types of healing. Yours his and the marraige. In time YOU will heal. Focus on you first. Do all the things you need to take care of you. Read, write and talk. We all understand how deeply you hurt. We all care.
2. going to have sex with him knowing that he felt he needed to hide there intense sex life from me because it might hurt my self-esteem. DAMN RIGHT IT DOES!!!
3. going to ever look into his eyes again knowing he was looking right back into mine these past 4 weeks and lied....Right into my eyes."
I discovered H's A in early August and I can relate to #1 and #3, for some reason the sex part doesn't bother me all that much. The level of emotional intimacy hurts me deeply though because I always thought H and I were a great team. Our "team" has really suffered as a result of H's indiscretions.
But like you, I am still disgusted with H and wonder if I will ever believe anything he ever says again knowing he looked right into my eyes and lied..and OH MY what HUGE lies he told me and with such ease.
I am on a business trip away from my H right now. I am very busy and have little time to think or process this whole thing. Its very therapeutic to give my brain a break, break the patterns of thought that are related to this whole mess. I never could have done this in the first 4 weeks, however. I was barely functional at all.
I have not had a problem having sex with my H. I guess it is a combination of a need to connect with him and I guess I am confident that this wasn't about the sex, for the most part. I know that having sex with another person is exciting and that it was about the excitement. I was certainly willing, able, available, and capable (we've only been married for 6 months!). And, he knows that while he choses not to be particularly experimental in bed that I am reasonably willing to do that, though I don't have a particular need for it myself. My mantra - "it was just sex". There have been times, like a few weeks ago where I felt totally disconnected from him and it was strange to have sex with well...a stranger - that's who my H had become to me. But, we are rebuilding that.
On trust, my H is incredibly remorseful and deeply ashamed (I think...ha, ha - that's what I call affair humor). When you start to see the behaviors associated with trying to make up for the "mistake", the trust does begin to rebuild. I also went through a period, where I felt those same intense feelings and worry about trust that you express in your post. And, I wondered if I wanted to rebuild that trust over the course of 2 or more years. If it/he/we were worth it. After 4 months, maybe its 5 now....yes...is, I can say that there is progress and it does seem probable that trust can be rebuilt. But, I would have never, ever believed that without coming to this board and reading about the recovery process from the perspective of the recovered, the still struggling, and the former wayward spouses. I do believe that time does heal the wounds so I am being patient with the struggle of allowing time to pass and see what happens.
I also think that if I walk away from this relationship in this state of mind, lacking trust, that I will have an incredible amount of difficulty trusting someone else. There are other days where I think I would give my trust to someone else more readily than I could to him. I don't know for sure which one is true. But, I do think that if I can rebuild trust with him that I will be more "healed" than if I try with someone new. I haven't figured all of this out yet - why I want to stay, why I chose to face the pain, why I want to believe in this man who has betrayed me by turning away from me when he should have turned toward me for help. I have still yet alot of self discovery to do.
Wow! Thank you all for your powerful words. As I was reading your comments I could feel everything you were saying.
How did the talk go?......it was emotionally exhausting. I have noticed a big difference in his attitude this time around answering my questions. He has a slightly defensive attitute about him now where he didn't the last four weeks. His attitude was more remorseful in his answers.
Before he left on his trip I told him to think about all he told me. I also said if there is a potential for us to move forward and I find out the he lied to me again that the marraige would definitely be over. He was to take the time away to come up (more like own up) with or clear the air on anything he may have left out. And I don't mean "did you call her on such a date" and he says No and I find out that he did. Not the trivial stuff.
So we have our talk and it started with me asking him to tell me the things he mislead or lied about. THere were a couple of things. We continue the talk and something in the back of my mind kept bugging me so I ask him. **when I discovered the A he was away on business. When he landed at his business destination he called to check in and I told him "the gig was up" and he admitted it. Immediately told me that he wanted to save the marraige, ya da, ya da. But, the OW had also gone with him on his business trip. He sent her back early. But she still spent 2 days with him in his hotel room. and he says that nothing happened. He said how could it since he was now focused on saving the marraige** So, I asked him "did you at least hug her" - No, "Give her one last goodbye kiss" - No, "have one last goodbye F*&^" - No. AFter that question I looked at him for a few seconds put my head down across my arms and I said to him "Dan, do you want to save the Marraige?" and his answer while my head was still down was "OK, we had a goodbye F*&%" (it happened the night before she left. nothing happened the day before when I found out). He said it was not anything that he wanted, planned, etc. They had gone to dinner (he said he took her since he saw himself as the bad guy not her and she at least deserved to go to dinner) At dinner he explains to her more about that the relationship has to end. He told me that she asked him couldn't they at least be F%#@ Buddies! He says no, yada, yada. They had a lot of drinks. They come back to the room he falls asleep and he wakes up because she is down giving him a BJ. She says to him "come on one last time". And yup weak man that he is does it. He says that he felt like a scum bag afterwards and he felt horrible. Ya think???!!!
If I didn't persue and end up asking him about her and the trip he once again would not have told me. Again, he was going to deceive me. I guess I could look at it as he did finally own up and tell me.
I feel cold and indifferent towards him. It's like I am 2 people inside. The cold part and the part that misses what I used to have with him.
And its like he's two people inside. The one who wants the marriage to work and the one that's scared to death about having to open up and reveal everything.
Wow. I'm reeling over what you explained happened. Yes, he should have come right out and told you instead of having you pry it out. But, on the other hand, he did reveal it when he saw your anguish and determination. And that's huge: he SAW your anguish AND determination. Good for him. Good for you.
Let the dust settle a bit. Your own feelings of inner split are understandable. I'd be watching a lot and listening very closely to what he's doing and saying in the next few days for the efforts that he's bringing to the table on his own.
Just an FYI from my perspective regarding: "And I don't mean "did you call her on such a date" and he says No and I find out that he did. Not the trivial stuff.".
My H and I have a similar kind of thing going regarding information that I want and him not wanting or being able to access it all. And we've had this same kind of discussion you guys have about putting the "important" stuff out on the table. However, there's an assumption there that everything that I see as important, he will, too. What I perceive as a trivial item, I've learned is different than what H sees as trivial. What I see as hugely painful wasn't necessarily viewed the same by H. This has created some pretty big fights for us and I don't want to see you go down that same path...or end the marriage over an assumption.
So if you were to find something out that seemed big to you, just know the possibility exists it wasn't big for him and so in his mind it wasn't what you were asking for.
Of course, there are the obvious "big" things...like what he wasn't going to tell you about the goodbye f#$*. But sometimes it isn't that black and white.
Anyway, generally speaking, it seems like it was a productive event. Or maybe its productivity depends on what he does from this point on. I think it was a good starting point. I hope your emotional dust settles relatively soon. Be good to you. BlueIris (hugs)
"We cannot wait for the storm to pass; we must learn to walk in the rain."
it is in the helpful links area....print it out
In the letter, it helps WS' see that they need to purge everything regarding the A...if a WS is holding anything back, you can't heal...trust me...you can't
Hugs to all of you
Denise
"Our lives begin to end when we become silent about things"
It is unbelievable to me how the WS just don't get it sometimes! Why we the BS have to be to the breaking point before they fess up to the truth. I, like you, have a husband who told me that they wanted the marriage but then went along with what the OP wanted them to do. I can fully understand how you feel. One minute them saying the marriage is the most important thing to them then the next doing something that tells you the complete opposite. I have to yet copy that Joseph's letter. My husband can still use the info and its been over a year for us. If's only been 4 wks from your dday, you will have more questions and hopefully he has learned that you NEED honest answers. For your sake, I hope so. I won't want anyone going through what I'm still going through. Just hope he can be honest with himself to give you what you need. I'll keep checking on your progress. Hang in there.
