Hi all. I'm new and not happy to be here. I had spent the last couple of hours pouring out my story and when I went to preview it I was sent to the log in screen, so I lost the post. I guess I spent so long crying in between paragraphs that I auto logged out. That is about par for the course lately. Oh well, it makes me feel better that I wrote it out in black and white, even if no one else saw it.

I want to thank whoever made this website because it has already helped me tremendously to read the threads and the advice given. I'm very alone right now, living overseas, with no one but my husband to talk to about this. He is deep in a fog and I'm trying to deal with it and get through it. I'm sure I'll be back later to give a shorter version. I'm a little too drained to tackle it again right now.

Tamatha

Welcome. I'm sorry that you lost your post. I'm sure that you'll have plenty of chances to get it out in the future.

One way to prevent loosing your posts is this simple. Before pressing 'Preview', while your still able to type in the message box, press 'Ctrl + A' to select all the text, then press 'Ctrl + C' to copy it to the "paste buffer". As long as you don't erase the paste buffer (which you do by selecting and copying another object), you'll be able to easily recreate your post by pressing 'Ctrl + V' in any window.

I often will use this approach to copy my post to a word processer for spell check just before posting it, the use the same approach to paste the updated post back in the forum window.

Alternatively, you could draft the entire post in the word processor before using this approach to copy and paste it into a forum window.

Another option is the change the auto-logout time so that you have plenty of time to draft your posts.

TomJ

Thank you for the welcome and the advice, Tom.

I just found out about the affair on Saturday. My husband has admitted that the affair was good for no one and he has ended it. He just can't understand why he went over the line this time when he never would go over it in the past. He believes there has to be something seriously wrong in our marriage that he can't figure out or, worse yet, he has "changed" and there is nothing that can be fixed.

He just can't see that it can be as simple as the circumstances in our life brought him to a point where he was feeling neglected and taken for granted and that we both lacked any excitement in our life together. Excitement came knocking at his door and he just made a STUPID human mistake when he made the choice to walk through the door.

It's so frustrating because I just can't compete with the level of illicit excitement he had with a new person. She was high on the same excitement he was experiencing. I haven't had any handsome strangers sweep me off my feet lately, so even as much as I want to make him happy, I just can't snap my fingers and turn into a bubbling pot of sexy excitement.

I'm walking on egg shells and I feel like my life depends on not breaking any of them, while I wait for him to decide if he has "changed" or not. I can't be normal and I have to hold in my irritation that he can walk around and be normal, abnormal, whatever the hell he pleases because he doesn't have an axe over his neck waiting to fall.

I don't want to make my husband sound like a horrible person. He is a good person and I think that is why he is being so hard on himself and refusing to believe that it was just a choice he made out of lust and selfishness.

Welcome, Tamatha. I'm so sorry that you have need of a forum like this...just as I am sad for each and every one of us being here. But I am glad you found us and I hope we can help as you recover from this trauma.

Its a truly wonderful thing that your H understands that the A was good for no one involved...and that he has ended it. You two are already on a good path because of his mindset on that and his proactive ability to end the A.

And it sounds like both of you are working to try and understand what happened and why your H chose to have an A. Again, this is a really good thing.

There are a couple of sentences in your post, I'd like to respond to:

"He believes there has to be something seriously wrong in our marriage that he can't figure out or, worse yet, he has "changed" and there is nothing that can be fixed."

Whether or not there is something "wrong" in the M actually isn't the point. When there is something wrong in an M, the healthy thing would be to talk with your spouse, go to counseling, talk with a pastor. But certainly the answer isn't having an A. It isn't a logical progression. Some other problem is rooted deeper that caused this. Your H's attempt at pointing to the M shifts the blame away from himself and onto circumstances, and maybe even you. Not good.

As for thinking that he just "changed", we certainly are all creatures that are constantly in flux and evolving. However, one would hope that morals and ethics have a more fixed, stabile place in who we are. But it is an interesting feeling that he's bringing up. I think it'd be at least a good starting point to ask him and really have him examine how he feels different. Not different about you or the M or life in general. But how does he personally feel like he has changed?

My bigger concern is over a statement you made:

"He just can't see that it can be as simple as the circumstances in our life brought him to a point where he was feeling neglected and taken for granted and that we both lacked any excitement in our life together."

Though there may be an initial impetus of marital discontent or disconnect that arises through the day-to-day routine of shared life, I would caution using this as the reason as to why his A happened. It puts way too much blame on you for his choice, and way too much pressure on you to perform and live differently now. You will hear this mantra over and over and over again on this forum: the A had nothing to do with you. The A had nothing at all to do with anything you did or did not do. The A was not about anything lacking in you or "mistakes" you made. The A was not about you not being exciting or sexy or new or sparkly or intriguing. If your H was feeling those things, it still doesn't answer the question, why did he then give himself permission to further damage the marriage? The more logical choice would be to make efforts to talk about the issues or to reconnect with you. There is some other link in the mental chain that needs to be found. This is not going to be a "simple" process for either of you, and for that I send you big, big hugs. Be patient with yourself and your pain. Be patient with him as he struggles to find the answers.

Tom has often used the analogy of peeling back the layers of an onion. Its a perfect analogy for uncovering the reasons why a WS has an A. Its a good starting point to look at the circumstances within the marriage. But there's a lot of other ground to cover that's going to take a while.

If time and resources permit, it would do you both a world of good to find IC's for each of you and an MC that you can see together.

I again want to welcome you here. Hope I haven't scared you off with some of my thoughts. I know for myself I tried very, very hard after DDay to rush to find the answers...because if I could speed up the process, I could find comfort and a way to get us both back on track. Sadly, this is not a process that can be rushed. Think of recovery as a marathon, not a sprint. Pace yourself. And take care of yourself along the way. Welcome. BlueIris

"We cannot wait for the storm to pass; we must learn to walk in the rain."

Blueiris, thank you for your insight. Some of what you said actually came up in discussions my husband and I had last night.

I want it to be over NOW! I told my husband last night that I knew my husband was in there and I wanted him back! I want a light bulb to just flash in his head and him to tell me that I'm the only one he desires. I know it's not that easy, but God, I want it to be over.

When I said it could be as simple as... I know the problems are not simple, but I can look back at the timeline leading to the affair and I do understand why he got to that point. I'm not giving him an excuse or pass and I'm not blaming myself, but I can see how the circumstances led to an affair.

It just astounds me how much he has been able to rewrite history in his mind. At first he told me that he had had doubts and been unhappy for over a year. So, we started talking about the first of the year and then after discussing memories of what we were doing and intimacies we shared, I could see that he was really confused and he started crying and saying that he was really happy then and had no doubts that he loved me, so it must have started in the last 6 months.

The last 6 months have had a lot of turmoil, illness and separation in them due to family matters. In August, I had to go back to the states and we were separated for 5 weeks. When I returned I had some "female problems" that totally put the brakes on our sex life. ANY marriage would be strained by what we have gone through.

Hello and Welcome...

The others have offered you some wonderful insights, thoughts, and advice. I just wanted to comment on a few things. I do not mean to be hard on you or hurt you in any way, but the BS is sortof in a fog themselves after d-day...we want answers...and we want it to be over now. But the facts are it takes time...it takes the WS digging deep and working on their personal issues. As Blue Iris has said, it wasnt the M, it wasn't you, it was all about the WS...keeping that in mind...

You said: <<I can see how the circumstances led to an affair>>

I understand what you are saying BUT circumstances do not lead to an affair. An affair is a choice. Yes, life happens and there are circumstances beyond our control BUT we can choose to do the right thing or what makes us feel better at the moment. An A is never something that just happens, the fact is the WS made a conscious choice to cross the line.

You said: <<It just astounds me how much he has been able to rewrite history in his mind. At first he told me that he had had doubts and been unhappy for over a year. So, we started talking about the first of the year and then after discussing memories of what we were doing and intimacies we shared, I could see that he was really confused and he started crying and saying that he was really happy then and had no doubts that he loved me, so it must have started in the last 6 months.>>

It is normal believe it or not, that the WS rewrites marital history. It is how they justify their behavior and live with themselves.

You said: <<The last 6 months have had a lot of turmoil, illness and separation in them due to family matters. In August, I had to go back to the states and we were separated for 5 weeks. When I returned I had some "female problems" that totally put the brakes on our sex life. ANY marriage would be strained by what we have gone through.>>

Yes, any marriage would be strained. But that is when the vows and commitment kick in...when the going gets tough, it is the true test of one's character. Being there in the bad times for each other, not looking to soothe your problems by inviting a third person into the marriage to comfort you. That is certainly not the right way to deal with things. An affair is never the answer. All it does is create more problems...and more guilt...and more pain for everyone.

It takes time to rebuild trust if he is truly remorseful. It takes time to stop hurting...lots and lots of time. I wish that were not true, and that all of this would magically go away (((((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))))). Please remember to take care of yourself...eat right, try to sleep, and exercise. You will need your strength. Think about going to IC and MC.

Wishing you all the best...



~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

I just wanted to respond to the idea of being able to turn into a "sex kitten" for him.

I did that. I became insatiable post-A. I was willing to do most anything in the bedroom as often as possible.

It didn't last. It didn't make me feel any better and it only masked the real issues. It just made him think everything must be fine. Then be shocked and angry when I had normal reations later to the A.

It short it didn't help so don't pressure yourself to be able to perform. It's not all it's cracked up to be.

Trinity

Tamatha,

You have several pieces of advice from Blue, Cal, Trinity...it's all good advice.

Here's some of mine....as Cal said, make sure you are taking care of YOU! After the discovery of an A many times the thought of caring for us just doesn't happen...we take care of the kids, the house, work...and we are last. I lost 20 lbs in less than 8 weeks...and it wasn't healthy.

Have you considered or looked into affair recovery books? If you look to the left at the helpful links there are some great books listed there. Janis Abrahms Spring wrote some great books including After the Affair. That book in the first 10 pages showed me that I was normal, that what I was feeling, thinking, doing, was all as 'normal' as life can be at that point. The local library has these books too - if they don't order some. There are also books that both of you can read together. Some couples read a chapter at a time, using their own color highlighter and after each chapter discuss what they read and what it made them think/feel. It is a good idea.

If your H is searching reasons behind the A...then suggest he to go counseling. IC (individual counseling) I think should be a requirement from the WS. You cannot be the one to heal him; he has to want to heal and he needs to make an effort.

There are 3 kinds of healing we say happens in recovery...yours, his and the marriage. I feel that in order for marital healing, that both parties go to individual counseling and then at a point, meet up in marriage counseling.

It can work Tamatha...if you both really want it, he's open to talking and getting things figured out and you are patient...it can happen.

As for what Trinity said...being a sex kitten...I had the same thing. I thought if i was 'with' him as often as he liked and added excitement to his life that things would be better. Hysterical bonding...that's what it was. It wasn't me...I was leading a lie simply to make him 'happy' and it didn't work. I humiliated myself and he was still with OW.

Take time, journal, post here....come to chat. We are here




Denise

"Our lives begin to end when we become silent about things"

(((Tamatha)))

There is a song by Sugarland titled "Stay".  It is written from the perspective of the OW, however the chorus resonates with me and the final chorus has become my mantra.  After the 1st A and D-Day of the 2nd A the main chorus was the tune I sang

Why don't you stay
I'm down on my knees
I'm so tired of being lonely
Don't I give you what you need
When she calls you to go
There is one thing you should know
We don't have to live this way
Baby, why don't you stay

Upon returning home and entering IC in September the final chorus is the tune I am singing

I can't take it any longer
But my will is getting stronger
And I think I know just what I have to do
I can't waste another minute
After all that I've put in it
I've given you my best
Why does she get the best of you
So next time you find you wanna leave her bed for mine

Why don't you stay
I'm up off my knees
I'm so tired of being lonely
You can't give me what I need
When she begs you not to go
There is one thing you should know
I don't have to live this way
Baby, why don't you stay, yeah

Your post could have been me talking after H's 1st A years ago.  I too could see how things in our M could have led him to an A.  I empathized and bought into how things I had done led him to a point where he "had" to seek comfort from another.  I adapted myself to be what he needed to be and yet he still pushed things to the limit and I gave it everything I had to make the M work.  He pushed me past my limits and I asked for a D at which point he begged me to give him another chance.  Regrettably I did.

Here I am years later and the circumstances are different, but somehow all the things he said led him to the A last time were the same reasons he used this time.  Initially I went the empathy route because that is the type of person I am.  However, I quickly realized that the A had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH ME!!!!  I don't know how to say it any stronger than that.

My Lessons Learned

1.  The A is/was not your fault.  You could have been the perfect "Stepford Wife/Husband" and it still would have happened sooner or later

2. Take care of you.

3. Do not change the essence of yourself to meet what he/she says they need, you will lose a part of your soul.  I recently found this quote by Stacey Carter

“There comes a time when you have to stand up and shout:
This is me damn it! I look the way I look, think the way I think, feel the way I feel, love the way I love! I am a whole complex package.
Take me... or leave me. Accept me - or walk away!
Do not try to make me feel like less of a person, just because I don't fit your idea of who I should be and don't try to change me to fit your mold.
If I need to change, I alone will make that decision.
When you are strong enough to love yourself 100%, good and bad - you will be amazed at the opportunities that life presents you.”

Don't be afraid to ...stand up and shout...

4. You deserve to be loved as fully and completely as you give your love.  Do not settle for less.

5.  Do not get so focused on saving the M that the WS doesn't deal with the demons deep within that was the true reason for the A in the first place.  If the demons are not conquered it will happen again.

6.  Do not let the WS continue to hurt and anger you over the same thing over and over again.  With each discovery of a new lie/betrayal deal with the anger and hurt then and there in a way that works for you and then let it go.  To keep reliving the event that caused the anger/hurt you are not only hurting yourself but giving them power to control your emotions.  Live it, feel it fully, learn from it, then let it go. Most of all to hold on to the anger and hurt is only punishing/hurting you.

7.  Don’t be afraid to let go.  There was a post not too long ago about “Letting Go”.  I could not find it but it has many words of wisdom them. Letting go does not mean it is over but sometimes you need to let go in order to achieve what is meant to be.

My thoughts and prayers go out to you.

The last few days have been good for me and I'm feeling a lot stronger and more in control right now. I followed links from here and did a lot of reading. I found something that was very helpful to me personally. It was an interview with a MC. In the interview she said that some of the first things she asks the WS are - What about the affair made him feel good? and How did he act differently in the affair?

I approached my husband with these questions. He looked a bit annoyed and he didn't really understand at first. I think he thought I was fishing for more details about the OW. I told him that this wasn't about her, it was about how he felt and his emotions. I told him that, for example, I wasn't asking him to tell me it turned him on because she was a younger, slimmer woman and I turned him off because I was an older, average woman - what I wanted to know was did he feel more attractive and sexier being seen with a young, slim woman who could dress in sexy youthful clothes? He balked at this and told me that there was nothing wrong with his self-confidence and ego. I told him that everyone, no matter their level of self-confidence, felt good knowing that other people saw them as attractive and they felt good knowing they could attract a person that other people viewed as attractive.

He kind of took this in for a minute and then he told me that he actually felt uncomfortable and awkward being seen walking down the street with her because she comes from a different culture. He also said that she wouldn't even be considered pretty in the face even though she had a slim body. This was not the response I was expecting and it was like a BINGO moment for me. This was the first negative he voiced about his feelings concerning the OW and affair and I could see that even though he had thought about it before, it was really sinking into him when he voiced it out loud.

We love to travel and my husband loves to see the local places, eat the local food and learn the basics of new languages. I asked him if it was interesting and fun to experience a new culture through a native's eyes. (He had visited her home country on a "business trip") He told me he did enjoy that. I told him it must have been interesting and that added to the fun and excitement he was feeling in the affair.

I asked him if it felt good to be with a person that really knew nothing about him? Did it give him that mysterious stranger feeling that you have at the beginning of a new relationship? I asked him if the illicit hidden nature of the affair gave him the thrill and the challenge of using his skills to manage and coordinate everything perfectly.

I asked him how he acted differently in the affair. He just shrugged his shoulders at first and said he didn't act differently or treat her differently than he treated me. I told him that he needed to be truthful with himself because how you treat a person generally is an indicator of how they will react to you. I repeated something I had told him before that I haven't been swept off my feet by a mysterious, good looking stranger lately, so I don't have anything to be all that excited about, but the person he was with did. Days before, when he was explaining to me about what a "fun" person she was he had told me that she loved to dance and he had fun dancing with her. I brought that up and told him that he never taken me anywhere where we could dance, so he must have taken her to different places than he took me. I never had the opportunity to grab his hand and say, "Let's dance!" We talked about more ways that he acted different, treating a person with more tenderness, care and attention and how that brings out the best in them.

Even though parts of the conversation made me wince with pain, I kept control of my emotions and I believe it turned out to be very insightful for both of us.

We talked for a long time and I and my husband saw many things that made him feel good AND bad about the affair and most of the good things had nothing whatsoever to do with the OW personally.
I saw the affair, not through my obsession with the OW, but through my husbands feelings and emotions and those are the root cause of our marital problems. He saw that the "deep feelings" that he thought he had for the nice, fun OW could be attributed to his feeling about things that he was experiencing in the affair that had nothing to do with her as a person.

What felt good about this discussion for me was that I wasn't railing against my husband making him feel more guilty and I wasn't talking bad about the OW. I think I showed my husband that his emotions and feelings are important to me. My husband didn't have to go into defensive mode to justify himself and defend the OW. He was able to think about and voice his feelings and emotions both positive and negative.

My husband says that he doesn't even know if he is still "in love" with me. He doesn't know how he could do something like this if he was "in love" with me. I've decided that I just really don't care if he thinks he is or isn't "in love" right now. He ended the affair, he's with me right now trying to sort it all out and that is what is important. I know some of you are probably shaking your heads and thinking she'll be back here next week crying and you are probably right. I know we still have a long road to travel.

For my own sanity alone, I have to focus on constructive and not destructive thoughts. I told my husband, twenty years from now, when he finally decides, he can tell me he is "in love" with me. Until then, we will try to understand each other's feelings and build each other up because we know, without a doubt, that we both love and care about each other.

You are absolutely amazing! You should be very proud of yourself for the way you handled that.

Even after 2 years (maybe cause WH was still cheating and is addicted to pot) I could not bring myself to ask those questions. In many ways I already know how he was "different" in the affair and why he thought OW was fun without having to ask. OW smoked pot with him...I wouldnt. That made her "fun" and he could indulge in his addiction without feeling bad about himself. When he was with her high, all his personal issues disappeared. No kids, no wife, no bills to pay....it was all just a fantasy.

You are right...it is more about how the WS feels and how they see themsleves reflected in the OW's eyes...and she could have been anyone...she was nothing special...maybe not even attractive....just different....just new.

(((((((((((hugs)))))))))))))) & best wishes as you travel down the path to healing...

~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

Great job! I know how difficult it is to keep one's own emotions in check while having a conversation like this - - but the rewards can be great...especially if it really gets your H thinking deeply about what he did and why. This is a great way to help a spouse come out of the fog. Bravo!

Cautionary word: Dear woman, most likely, you will be here in a week or two crying, but NOT because anything you've done was wrong at all. You're handling yourself and this situation very, very well. But the path of infidelity recovery is an emotional rollercoaster. It is common - - maybe more than common! maybe a given - - that your emotions are going to go all over the place. Savor the good moments for now. Be prepared that you may emotionally crumble in a month and feel all hope is dashed. No one here is going to say "I told you so" or shake their head and point to something you did or said in the weeks earlier. We have all gone through this. We know the ups and downs. No one will think less of you for going through the different stages of affair and trauma recovery. This is a safe site.

Keep on keepin' on. You're doing really well and we're all pulling for you. Hugs to you. BlueIris

"We cannot wait for the storm to pass; we must learn to walk in the rain."

Like Blue Iris said...the path to healing after infidelity is like being on a roller coaster. There will be good days and bad days...you will laugh and you will cry...this is normal. We have all been through this and we will be here whenever you need us

I just wanted to add that I love Shirley Glass, her book "Not Just Friends" is one of my favorites and has personally helped me. It was the first book I read after D-Day, and it was very painful to read. But please do not put too into the thought that just because your WH was "different" in in some way with the OW it does not excuse his behavior. The A is not about YOU and what you did or did not do. Spouses should tell their partner what it is they want and need. You cannot meet someones needs if they dont tell you what they are. Even then it is unrealistic to think that one person can fulfill ALL our needs...we must at times find more constructive ways to meet our own needs, and that does not mean you have an A. Communication is key in a marriage. If he wanted to do different things he could have done them with you, as you pointed out. There is a kindof prejustification that goes on in the mind of the WS long before they cheat, which allows them to cross the line. That is where the problem lies. What did he tell himself that made it ok for him to cross the line? What boundaries that should have been were not in place for him?

Again, you have done a fantastic job. I know it was very painful to ask the questions and hear the answers and not react. (((((((((hugs))))))))


~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

It sounds like you've done a lot of homework to try and understand your husband's affair. It also sounds like you're being very patient with him while drawing him out. That's a good start to rebuilding the relationship.

At the same time, I'll offer a word of caution that you don't lead him into the "correct" answers. I think I did that with my wife. Many of our discussions turning to me trying to counsel her, and I feel that many times she'd "play dumb" until I'd give her enough information that she could know the answer that would satisfy me without incriminating herself. So, my caution is that you let him search for the answers by exercising patience that he will apply basic principles to his own experience. I struggled with that because me wife didn't seem to give much effort toward understanding herself since she was preoccupied with covering up her responsibility and fault for the affair. She covered it up by playing the victim of the OM, of me, of her situation at the time, of her childhood, etc. I don't know how much my behavior enabled her in that, but I think it did prolong this period in her repentance.

I like how you have tried to keep the conversation as non-confrontational as possible. It's possible that some of his responses cut you deeply. How have you managed at controlling your reaction to those instances? Over the years I've learned to try to speak to it in the calmest words that I can, "What you just told me hurts a lot right now."

The key turning point for our recovery was when my wife took full ownership of her affair. Like your husband, she also felt that the OM was unattractive, both physically and in personality, although strangely enough she admitted to having love feelings for him. I think the explanation for that is that she didn't find him initially attractive, but he gave her a lot of compliments and encouraging words, and this lead to her feelings of attraction. However, at the same time she found him to be overbearing (among other issues) and did not like his physical attributes. It sounds like your husband might have his own variation of this.

TomJ

Tom you asked how have you managed at controlling your reaction to those instances?

Well, I thought I was controlling myself well, but I have my moments when it all falls apart. This weekend was really nice and even felt "normal". My husband surprised me by booking a couple's spa weekend at a ritzy local hotel for next weekend. He said he thought it would be nice for us to relax and unwind together with some stress relieving spa treatments. I was really excited and happy about that.

Then, on Monday morning while I was sitting alone at home, as usual, the obsessing starts. It's my biggest problem. I obsess about the OW and details of the affair that I don't know. When directly confronted with questions about the affair or OW my husband clams up. He said it feels slimey to talk about it and he doesn't see how it will help our marriage for me to know details. He said he wants to just push that all to the back of his mind and let the memory fade. Well, in my obsessive states I think that he doesn't want to talk about it because he is "protecting" her and what they shared and trying to keep a part of her to himself.

So, I'm sitting there obsessing and then I hear a song that we played at our wedding. A song that had deep meaning to both us of at the time. At our wedding party, my husband got the DJ to play it again and he surprised me by getting up and singing it to me in front of everybody. I could never love this man more than I loved him at that moment. I just totally lost it thinking of all of this and broke down crying and sobbing. About that time, my husband called. He could hear I was upset and that upset him.

When I'm really upset like this, I write out an email to my husband and tell him what is bothering me. Then I send it to his home email addy so he can sit and read my thoughts when he gets home uninterrupted by any emotional outbursts. I told him that I don't really know what is going on in his head, but I want him to know what is going on in mine. When my husband came home, he went straight to the computer because he knew an email was waiting for him.

In the email I had told him about hearing the song and I pasted the words of the song there. I told him that it was just so hard to believe that the feelings that he had for me while we were clinging together as he sang that song had just disappeared and that I knew they were still there somewhere. I told him that I was in hell with a million questions I couldn't ask and I wrote out a bunch of those questions as an example. I also told him that it bothered me that he hadn't even mentioned planning our spring vacation. We have always had most of the details ironed out by the end of January. I felt like he didn't even want to plan being with me past a few weeks in the future. How can you be working on our marriage if you don't even plan for a future in our marriage?

After he read it he answered a few of my questions, but still balked and told me that it wasn't important because he has realized that what he felt for her wasn't love. He said that it wasn't about her anymore, that it is just about us. He asked me to forgive him for being so stupid to ever start that up with her and bring her between us. Then he told me that he had already told me that there were some uncertainties at work for the time that we usually take our vacation and that until he was sure of them he didn't want to plan anything. I told him that he might have told someone that, but it wasn't me. Then, he realized that he had told his mother when she was making plans to visit us because she didn't want to interfer with our vacation, but he hadn't told me.

He told me that he feels numb and just needs some time and space to feel normal again. He said he just needs to feel that spark from me again. That upset me because I felt like he was telling me that it was somehow my fault. That I just wasn't sparky enough for him. He told me that that wasn't what he meant. He told me that this weekend when we were sitting on opposite couches watching a video that he looked over at me and I was sitting there with my legs stretched out a certain way and he just got a rush of emotion and thought, "That's my wife!" He said he wasn't telling me that the spark wasn't still there, that he just needed time to come out of the numbness and feel it again.

We ended up in each other's arms crying. It was a good discussion all in all. I got more insight into his thoughts. I also realized that I obsess about the OW because that is somehow easier for me than facing that it's not HER, it's problems that were there that I hadn't faced before she even existed in our life. My husband and I both avoid confrontation and even though we have never had major problems, if you bury all the little problems away and try not to think about them, they end up joining together and rising up as a big problem.

I told my husband that I'm going to try my hardest to be more patient with his recovery, give him more time and space and stop obsessing over the OW. I told him that he had to realize though that even though it wasn't intentional on his part that I feel like I'm being tortured by his uncertainty and I can't always just hold my thoughts in or I'll go crazy. I told him that it makes me angry that he acts like he is the victim in all of this and he is in control of my destiny. He had told me that when he started the affair it was all about sex and he KNEW that if he got caught I would forgive him. I told him that he took that for granted, but don't take for granted that I can go on living like this for an extended period of time. I have my limits of what I can endure before I just shut down and become numb myself.

I'm really sorry that my posts are so long. Ya'll are really the only people I can talk to about this. If we were in the States we wouldn't hesitate to find a qualified MC, but living in this country overseas we are just too uncertain and afraid we will get a quack that only causes more problems. Thank you for letting me vent.

Oh Tom, I also will take your advice about trying not to lead him. I probably do do that without even realizing it.

Well, I'm definitely on the roller coaster. The highs and lows are just exhausting me.

I've always been a very vivid dreamer. It's not unusually for me to wake up in the middle of the night screaming, crying or even laughing. I always remember my dreams, too.

Last night, I had a dream where I was just wondering around all over the place looking for my husband. If you can think of the frustration you feel when you are looking for a misplaced set of keys, well, just magnify that by about 100% and you will know how that dream made me feel. The bad part is that I had a very similiar dream a few days after the affair started. Of course, at the time the affair was unknown to me. The morning after I had the dream I told my husband that I had a dream where I was looking for him and couldn't find him anywhere and that I went to his friends and asked them if they knew where he was and they told me no, but I thought they did know and they were keeping it from me, so it was very frustrating and weird. He got this look on his face that I didn't understand then, but I TOTALLY understand now. I also didn't understand then why he sounded so annoyed when he told me that it was just a stupid dream.

I couldn't go back to sleep and I got out of bed and puttered around for awhile and finally went back to bed around 3am. Then, I had another dream. It was very personal so I won't give you the details, but it was very upsetting and sad. When I woke up I was very depressed. I finally convinced myself to snap out of it because it was just a dream. In the afternoon I went out shopping. I've lost 15lbs and my clothes are all bagging and sagging.

On the way home from shopping I started feeling bad about how much money I'd spent which is stupid because we can afford it and I did NEED new clothes. Then I started thinking about how much money he had spent on the OW between shacking up at nice hotels and giving her gifts and I wished I'd spent twice as much money. But then, I felt bad for thinking like that. sigh When my husband came home I met him at the door in a slinky new dress and heels. He loved it. It felt like old times. Everything was good!

But, a little while later my husband said something that made me turn into Bezerk Tamatha. I mean I went rip-roaring crazy on him. It was a side of me that my husband has never seen before. I was ranting and raving, pulling my hair, flinging my arms in the air. It was not pretty. My husband got angry and cold and it made me even crazier. I finally regained my sanity and I was so embarrassed that I put on my coat and headed out the door.

After walking around for awhile I realized that I had gotten so upset at his remark because it mirrored something in my upsetting dream. When I came back, he was all sweet husband again and he asked me if I was alright. I told him about the dream and I told him that I was sorry that I projected the dream onto him. He apologized for what he said when he was angry. We had a long talk and he seemed seriously concerned that I was even considering ending it all, but as usual it ends with - he loves me, but he doesn't know what he wants or if he has changed, blah blah blah. My roller coaster always returns to this same station at the bottom of the hill.

I found an IC from the UK who has a practice here. After, the Chinese New Year holidays, I'm going to make an appointment with him. I seriously need some professional help to cope with all of this. My husband feels numb and I feel like I'm carrying around the pain for the both of us 24 hours a day.

It really sounds like the rollercoaster... on moment feeling one emotion, the next feeling the opposite, all turning on the smallest of triggers. I think we all ride it. It something that calms as you grow in acceptance and as your relationship questions are resolved. I wish there was something we could do to reduce the intensity of it. My only suggestion is to try to hold on to your reasoning skills when emotions are overtaking you.

As far as the dreams and your reactions, that's an experience I can relate to. The trauma is so raw that small things will build less than conscious connections in your mind and you will find emotional responses that don't see to make any sense to you. Again, with time and healing those sensitivities will lessen.

I'm disturbed that your husband doesn't know what he wants. It means that you're probably going to experience more pain before the healing can truly begin. In connection with that you should probably take a few precautions for your health.

First of all, you should do what you can to insure good eating habits and sleeping habits. Make sure to eat something at each mealtime and make sure they are healthy foods. You might take a multi-vitamin. Your immune system is likely to be weakened by all this stress, so good food and vitamins will help you fend off disease.

Secondly, if you have not done so already, you should take steps to protect yourself from any sexually transmitted diseases. Use condoms if you are engaged in sexual relations with your husband. You probably want to consider visiting a health clinic to be sure that you have not already contracted something from him. I believe many people don't resume sexual contact with their spouse until they have assurance that the spouse is disease free and they are monogamous.

Finally, keep a regular bedtime and do what you can to take your mind away from the obsession of the affair. It can be very difficult to get a good night's rest with this weighing on your mind. I suggest that you not resort to using alcohol as a relaxant (or as a way of forgetting). Many people find themselves with alcohol problems due to misusing it in recovery. If you need medications, see a physician who can prescribe appropriate medications. Many people have used antidepressants to help stabilize their emotions and take better care of themselves.

TomJ

I was out shopping yesterday and I passed by the Valentine's Day card section. I flipped through the cards and it was really depressing. Cards that I wouldn't have hestitated to pick up just a month ago were just full of empty sentiments. You are the best husband ever and you've made my life perfect and complete are just not the thoughts I have in my mind right now.

I stood there thinking that I needed a card that said,"Even though you've broke my heart in two, I'm still crazy enough to want to be with you."

I came home and made my own card out of construction paper. I put a broken bleeding heart on the front and this quote from Stephen Packer that I found - "Love is strong, yet delicate. It can be broken. To truly love is to understand this. To be in love is to respect this."

On one side of the inside I put another heart with a bandaid over it and wrote - Together our love is strong enough to heal the wound. On the other side I told him that if we hold tight to each other that I know the best is yet to come.

We had a wonderful time this weekend on our spa getaway. It was so much fun just being together and sharing a new experience. But, on Saturday night after my husband fell asleep I watched him sleeping and I was just filled with profound sadness thinking that this wonderful relationship is what we have always had and my husband was ready to throw it out and run away with a woman that he had only known for two months and had only physically been with for less than a week.

I broke down crying. My husband woke up and tried to comfort me. I told him that all we seem to be concentrating on is if he is happy with our life and if he would be happier in an alternate life. I told him that we also needed to start discussing my happiness and how I will find any happiness in an alternate life. I told him that I needed to start planning that life because I can't endure this total uncertainty for much longer. I know that I would start to disconnect soon.

Sunday night my husband told me he wanted to talk and he told me that he is certain that the affair was not good for him and he only brought poison into our relationship with it. He told me that he is not spending his time thinking about the OW and a life with her. He wants nothing to do with her again.

He told me that he is extremely depressed and he is just trying to find a way out of the depression. He said that he felt that he had brought this all on himself, but that didn't help him get out of it. He told me that he was scared that I was going to get sick of dealing with him and leave him and he asked me to please give him more time to work this out. He said he can't tell me what I want to hear right now because he is so numb and empty feeling that it would have no meaning and he wants it to have true meaning when he tells me.

I'm going to continue to hold on to him, our past and our future with all the strength I can muster. There is just too much for both of us to lose here.

First of all, I want to say, "WOW!!!!! What an awesome card you made! Please go into business because there are a lot of people searching for messages that actually relate to life in a not so perfect world!!"

Secondly, I'm really glad the two of you had a good trip together and have seen the ability to make new and better memories. You both are on a journey...its going to take a while, but it sounds like you both have the desire to forge a life together that can survive and thrive past this horror. I know there will be times when it feels impossible and pointless and you will be too emotionally exhausted to feel like continuing. Come here and vent. Read the resource books. Talk with one another. It is more than unfortunate that we all are in this predicament, but it isn't a foregone conclusion that happiness is now gone from our lives. Hang in there. BlueIris

"We cannot wait for the storm to pass; we must learn to walk in the rain."

Hi Tamatha,

I have read your posts and have identified with many things you have written.

"It's my biggest problem. I obsess about the OW and details of the affair that I don't know. When directly confronted with questions about the affair or OW my husband clams up. He said it feels slimey to talk about it and he doesn't see how it will help our marriage for me to know details. He said he wants to just push that all to the back of his mind and let the memory fade. Well, in my obsessive states I think that he doesn't want to talk about it because he is "protecting" her and what they shared and trying to keep a part of her to himself"

My H does this and like you I end up thinking it is because he is protecting her. I NEED to obsess over the details and it doesn't help me when he is reluctant to talk. I just can't afford counselling so he is the only person I can talk to. And I feel it is unrealistic for him to want to brush it all under the carpet (so to speak) in the hope it will all 'go away'.

"Last night, I had a dream where I was just wondering around all over the place looking for my husband. If you can think of the frustration you feel when you are looking for a misplaced set of keys, well, just magnify that by about 100% and you will know how that dream made me feel. The bad part is that I had a very similiar dream a few days after the affair started. Of course, at the time the affair was unknown to me. The morning after I had the dream I told my husband that I had a dream where I was looking for him and couldn't find him anywhere and that I went to his friends and asked them if they knew where he was and they told me no, but I thought they did know and they were keeping it from me, so it was very frustrating and weird. He got this look on his face that I didn't understand then, but I TOTALLY understand now. I also didn't understand then why he sounded so annoyed when he told me that it was just a stupid dream."

I had a dream during the A (though of course I didn't know about it at the time). It was awful. H was kissing and caressing another woman (faceless in my dream) but they were both laughing at my tears. When I woke up, the feeling lingered with me and I started to cry for real. H woke up and when I told him about the dream, he comforted me but didn't say much. I know why now. I suppose my sub-conscience was telling me what I didn't want to know in a dream.

"Secondly, if you have not done so already, you should take steps to protect yourself from any sexually transmitted diseases. Use condoms if you are engaged in sexual relations with your husband. You probably want to consider visiting a health clinic to be sure that you have not already contracted something from him."

This helps. I made H go to the STD clinic with me. I found it humiliating because of course they ask why you are there. But we were seen by a very nice, down-to-earth woman doctor who told me when I was being 'swabbed' (which is no different than any other smear test) that it was far worse for a man! The needle used is huge and penetrates their..ahem...manhood in such a way that it is extremely painful for them. I have to say that when H came out of the consulting room, he had tears in his eyes.
And I'm ashamed to say that it felt good.....

Tamatha, I can't offer you any advice because I have't got a clue what the heck I'm doing myself. But I do wish you happiness and joy in your marriage..however long it takes.

Well, I had been dreading Valentine's Day, but it turned out great. I made a special dinner that we ate by candlelight with a bottle of wine. My husband appreciated the card I made and I loved the flowers he got me.

Everything was going so well that I hated to spoil the mood, but I had something that was on my mind and really bothering me. I've been so worried that any time now the OW was going to get in touch with my husband and tell him that she was pregnant. After dinner, while we were sitting there I just came out and asked him, "Was SHE using birth control?" He said that she told him she was. I kinda rolled my eyes at that because who the hell knows if she really was. I'm pretty certain that she was just trying to snag an expat to get a passport out of her craphole country.

Anyway, I told him that I'd been worried about her calling and saying she was pregnant. He said she would already know if she was pregnant and would have got in touch with him. I said the last time he was with her was only 5 weeks ago. She could just be discovering she was pregnant. He said that he used condoms every time and she said she was using birthcontrol. I said right so that means that it's nearly impossible for her to have normally gotten pregnant. He looked a little confused and I asked him if it even occured to him that she could SAY she is pregnant when she isn't just to cause a bigger break between us and/or send him running back to her and a few months later after she was sure she had fully damaged our relationship and had him in her hooks she could have a "miscarriage".

I said on the other hand she could actually be pregnant if she wasn't really taking birth control. Again he tells me he always wore a condom and it never broke. I told him that he was so naive. I asked him if he threw the condom in the bathroom trash bin and walked away from it or well...let's just say I told him some more creative ways to sneakily get his sperm in her vagina.

Then, I asked the question that I really needed the answer to - I asked him what he would do if she did call and say she was pregnant with his baby. He didn't hesitate at all. He told me that he would tell her to call him back after the baby was born and they would arrange a paternity test and if it was his child he would meet his obligations to the child. I told him that I was so afraid that if it actually happened he would run to her to take care of her because she was having his child. He put his hands out beside him and said, "What are we doing here? I thought I was here trying to repair my marriage. Isn't that what WE are doing? Why would I do that? I would have an obligation to the child, but I have no obligation to her. I know you think I've gone crazy, BUT I haven't gone THAT crazy!"

HALLELUJAH! I could hear in his voice that he was completely sincere and that was so what I needed to hear. It just filled me with hope and happiness. Right now he really is committed to me and our marriage. I know there are probably still a lot of hard knocks in the road, but it is such a relief to feel that we are both headed in the same direction right now.

Hi Tamatha,

"Well, I had been dreading Valentine's Day, but it turned out great. I made a special dinner that we ate by candlelight with a bottle of wine. My husband appreciated the card I made and I loved the flowers he got me."

I am so plased to hear that. It really sounds as if he is trying hard to put things right and this was a giant step in the right direction.

"I told him that he was so naive. I asked him if he threw the condom in the bathroom trash bin and walked away from it or well...let's just say I told him some more creative ways to sneakily get his sperm in her vagina."

I think that men underestimate how devious women as a species can be. I really believe that they have no idea just what a woman will resort to to get her own way. I told my H many, many times over the years that there were women out there that were predatory and manipulative. He recently told me (since D-Day) that he never really took my words very seriously but since his affair with OW, he now knows that I was 100% correct and will now be fully wary for the rest of his life.

OW certainly 'preyed' on him-she met him by being in his taxi cab one night and chased him around constantly afterwards, making it clear she was available. And she manipulated him long after D-day by again chasing him around and turning on the tears to make him feel sorry for her. He would end up in her car comforting her then coming home smelling of her perfume. This went on for two months after D-Day-even though he was supposed to be committing to me-and it was this that made me decide to end our marriage.

Two months after D-day, I it happened again and I broke down and told him he was killing me and that in order to preserve both my life (I was starting to feel suicidal by his stupidity-I knew she was manipulating him) and my sanity, I was ending the marriage. It was a wake-up call for him. HE then spent three days in bed crying, saying HE was suicidal and did not want to live without ME. I did not trust anything he said anymore and he knew it so he took me to the church we married in (an hour's drive away from our home), took me to the alter and fell to his knees, wrapped his arms around my waist and cried (and he is not a man given to displays of emotion). He then apologised to me and said he would never cheat on me again. It was only then I truly believed that we had a chance at trying to repair our marriage.
I guess my H has learnt the hard way how devious women can be.

"HALLELUJAH! I could hear in his voice that he was completely sincere and that was so what I needed to hear. It just filled me with hope and happiness. Right now he really is committed to me and our marriage. I know there are probably still a lot of hard knocks in the road, but it is such a relief to feel that we are both headed in the same direction right now."

Someone else wrote to me on this forum that we need to take iddy-biddy baby steps in repairing marriages after an A. This has stuck in my mind and makes sense to me. For every step backwards, we must focus on the baby steps going forwards. Then progress can be made. I think it sounds like good progress for you and your H.

Thought I'd give you an update on my situation. This has been a crazy two months with my world turned upside down and my husband stumbling around in the fog feeling "numb". Valentine's Day I was feeling a lot of hope, but hope quickly deserted me in the weeks thereafter.

My husband kept insisting that he wanted nothing more to do with the OW and that it was all a big mistake for everyone involved, but I could tell that he was clinging to the memories of the affair and the OW. He told me that he thought that he just wanted to be single again. I told him that he was not a single person. He hates being alone. He thought he fell "in love" with the first person he had sex with outside our marriage, so how long did he think he was going to last being single before he jumped into another committed relationship?

So my husband was telling me that he wanted to work on our relationship, but at the same time he was thinking that he really wanted to be single. This, of course, was making me crazy. Whenever I tried to talk about the affair, the OW and my feelings about it all I was silenced with the admonition that the affair was over and we were working on our relationship, so we didn't need to remind ourselves over and over about details of the affair. Well, bullcrap!! Basically, what was going on was that my husband was walking around acting and doing whatever he damn well pleased while I walked around on eggshells trying to be perfect. WE weren't working on repairing our relationship because he wasn't even really committed to repairing our relationship. Over and over I had to hear how he was numb and didn't know what he wanted and he didn't know if he was in love with me.

I was basically a basket case. I kept having emotional outbursts. This made him crazy. Three weeks ago, he told me that he needed some "space".He wanted me to go to a hotel for a month, so he could have time to think in peace. I did not want to do this because I knew that time apart would be used for him to further detach from me. He kept insisting that it was not a separation, it was just time to breath. He wanted me to enjoy myself and pamper myself while I was there. Yeah, right, whatever... He cried while I was packing. I told him to quit crying because he was the one that wanted this, not me. By the time he checked me in to the hotel he had changed the time from a month to two weeks.

I cried all night and then cried all day the next day. The next evening when we were talking on the phone I told him I was miserable and he gave me the this is not a separation pamper yourself pep talk.
When he hung up he told me to - have fun. Have FUN?!? Well, that kicked the switch and I just got ANGRY. I paced up and down cussing for about 30 minutes, then I called him back. I told him, "You wish you could be single? Well, I'm about to make your wish come true. I married a mature, responsible caring man and I'm not going to stay married to an immature, irresponsible horndog. If you are going to treat me like this, then you don't deserve my love and care and I'm going to quit throwing it away and wasting it on you. Come to the hotel tomorrow and we will discuss the divorce arrangements."

There was silence for a little bit and then he asked if he could have ten minutes to think and call me back. I told him sure and that was about the longest ten minutes of my life. I'm here to tell you, NEVER say anything unless you have really thought it through and are sure you mean it because you can't take it back! When he called back he told me that he was coming to the hotel to check me out and bring me home. He said that he thought the time apart was a good idea for him and for our marriage, but it wasn't a good idea if I was falling completely apart away from him.

When I got back home I managed to control my outbursts for about a week, but my husband was walking around like a whooped puppy waiting for the next kick. Finally, I blew again. I just couldn't hold it in because I hated this feeling that my husband was walking around comparing out life together with some fantasy in his head about a swinging single life. After about an hour of ranting I was worn out and my husband was just literally curled up in a ball on the bed with his head under the covers.

He looked like he was in so much pain that he just couldn't bear any more. My heart just welled up feeling his pain and I couldn't bear it. I walked over and took his head in my hands and told him, "Okay, this is enough. I'm so busy being the victim that I haven't even been seeing your pain. I can't see you like this, I love you, too much to do this to you, so this is what we are going to do. You are going to go make reservations at a nice hotel in town and you are going to go stay there for a week. You are going to have space and breath and you aren't going to have to worry about when I'm going to go crazy on you next. You can take my lap top and play on the internet or you can go out for drinks every night with the guys. You can just relax and rest and I'm going to be sitting here in our home waiting for you to come back feeling rested and more yourself again"

My husband got tears in his eyes and hugged me and thanked me. The next morning it was like he took a mask off and he was his old self. He kept assuring me that he wasn't going to think about or contact the OW. He kept telling me he loved me. He was happily planning his week in the hotel and planned to check in the next day, but that night when I was cooking dinner, he came in the kitchen and said, "You know what? I'm not going to the hotel. You're right, we don't need time apart that might detach me further from you." Then he put his arms around me and told me, "You are the only woman I love and I'm in love with you. I'm fully committed to repairing our marriage and it's going to be stronger than it was."

Well, he just about had to pick me up off the floor because that was the last thing I was expecting to hear that night. He is suddenly like the man I married again and I can really see how hard he is trying to repair the damage. He is talking to me about everything I ask about and he is being sweet, loving and caring. I'm just going to be thankful for every day that we move in the same direction together. I'm starting to regain a bit of the feeling of security that I lost.

Tamatha:

Thanks for the update. It sounds like you've been up and down a rollercoaster of emotions. I hope this is a perminant change in the relationship for you and your husband. It looks like he finally saw the losses that were piling up in his life and took action to limit them.

I was surprised that you offered to 'allow' him to spend time at the hotel, because I thought you would have suggested that you go together. In the book "Rebuilding Your Broken World" by Gordon MacDonald, he speaks of his wife going to a place removed from their normal life and how much that helped them in their recovery. My wife and I had a few times like that which I'd say were also times when healing could occur. We still talked about the affair at great length in those places, but some of the pressures of daily life were taken away and we could focus on just us. In addition, I found that a new place displaced many of the triggers that were accumulating in our regular place.

If you can, you might consider spending a weekend or even a whole week in a retreat for you marriage.

TomJ

Tom, I didn't suggest us going together because we had already went for a weekend at the hotel spa and I broke down crying all night there, so that had already been tried and didn't work out very well. I think that I acknowledged the real pain he was feeling and acted unselfishly to try to help him relieve it and that was the fog light that shone through and reminded him of who I really am and why he fell in love with me.

We are making plans right now to take a vacation to Italy. Both of us have always wanted to go there, so it will be fun to share our dream.