I'm new here, and reading all of the postings has helped already. Not that I like the "misery loves company" thing,but it is nice to know I'm not (or wasn't)crazy.

A little background. H and I had been married for almost 18 years when I found out about his affair (in fact, our anniversary was 5 days later). One child, almost 9. Self Employed, we both work the business full time (and then some). Never fought, got along great, but some poor business decisions in the past 2 years had caused a great deal of stress, and my way of dealing with stress is to disconnect. Not excusing his behavior,just explaining where I was at the time. We were more like really great roommates who had sex!

OW was (is) an employee, but also a very good friend, known her for over 6 years. My H and her are very much alike, ADD, bad childhoods, impulsive, flirts, outgoing, life of the party types, etc.. I am the total opposite: quiet, shy, unemotional (on the outside), blend into the woodwork as much as I can. They worked closely together for a long time,never bothered me until July of last year, when I started to feel something "not right". End of August I confronted him, he denied it, but we did, for the first time in over a decade, talk long and honestly about our marriage, and we agreed to work harder. I started walking (have lost 50 lbs as of now), started communicating with him more openly, things were going great, but I couldn't shake that "feeling". He did admit at the first talk that he considered her his "best friend", I explained that that hurts a great deal, and I was supposed to be his "best friend".

Middle of September, I videotaped them in my house working, only suspicious thing was them going into the laundry room for 75 seconds (watched that tape over and over and over again). Confronted him again, still denied it.

Confronted him 2 more times before finding out. Each time, he swore they were "just friends" and really, our marriage WAS going great, we were spending way more time together, talking, he was writing me nice notes, I was losing weight and feeling great about myself. We were also all working together a LOT, busy season for us.

Middle of November, H and I went away for a weekend, had a great time, but before we left, I had a put a tape recorder in his car (I'd done so many other times, never heard anything "wrong"). They talked a LOT on the cell, but I knew that, and he had been adjusting his schedule to spend less time with her since the first time we talked, by end of October, it was cut way down. This time, I listened to it the day we got back, had been made the day we left. Heard him telling her he loved her, missed her, but also heard him telling her what a great time we'd had, things were great, etc.. I was devastated, but also relieved to finally have some "proof".

Called him right away, he denied it STILL (I didn't tell him I had the tape), kept asking why, after such a great weekend, I was "going there again". He turned around and came home, still denied when he got home, until I told him about the tape. He just deflated at that point, said he was a piece of s***, he was losing everything, and for nothing. We talked a LOT that day, I told him I wasn't leaving him right then, I wasn't even ready to kick her out of our lives, etc..

I wrote her a letter that very day, very long, very emotional, and left it for her. She wrote back, very honest, very sorry, ashamed, willing to do whatever I wanted: quit, walk away, etc.. Ended up meeting with her a week and a half after I found out, very emotional talk, she was completely shell shocked and devastated and confused. I really felt her pain, especially because of what she'd done to our friendship.

They didn't have sex, they did kiss and hug, and they talked, a LOT. I basically have been trying to deal with TWO issues: his betrayal and hers also. Very few people know about this: my best friend (who didnt' believe me when I told her back in September and was completely shocked when I got proof) and his best friend. I decided NOT to tell her husband, which I know after reading is not something people here will agree with, but it feels right to me. She initially wanted to confess, but has decided to take a wait and see attitude.

Basically, what I got from her: It was stupid, it was like high school, the guilt was killing them, she knew it was going nowhere and how much he loved me, she hated herself for doing it to me because I'm such a nice person, her and her H had been drifting apart and having problems for about 2 years too, and that it was "ending" with my H 2 months before I even found out, that it was hot and heavy and exciting for about 1 month, then it just got stressful and not fun. BUT, that if he had asked her during that 1 month, she may have ditched everything to run away with him.

From him: He hates himself for what he did, he doesn't deserve for me to stay, he wasn't "in love" with her, he never stopped loving me, everything he was writing/saying during that time WAS the truth about us, he was thrilled with the changes we were having; basically, he was "lost" and "lonely" and reached out to her. I noticed almost immediately (he said they hadn't even kissed the first time I accused him), and then I started to change, and he was so happy, but the A was still exciting and new, and the stress was killing him. That he never planned to leave me, that the A was basically over a month and a half before I caught them, that it would have just died its own death (but I never would have rested until I found proof, so I'm glad, sort of, that didn't happen).

It was November 15 I found out, and things are going very well,but I still have so many conflicted feelings. My H has been great, answers all my questions (but since they both are so much alike, I actually know more about what happened and when then they do, they can't remember dates, times, places, etc..I kept a spreadsheet!). She is still with our company, and while they do still sometimes work together, it is much different now. The first time they had to drive somewhere together, I didnt' think I'd make it through the day. They've had to do so a few times since then, and they are both uncomfortable with it too, but sometimes its necessary. I haven't taped them since then, I do check his cell for how long he talks to her, but he always tells me anyway, so I don't really need to, but do anyway. Neither of them knows how to erase their calls, they dont' use email, they never went away together, no gifts exchanged, etc..

Not sure even why, after all this time, I'm writing at all. I think I just am curious if anyone else has continued contact with the OW, if we're being realistic in thinking we can continue the friendship. The horrible thing is, I DO care about her, even right after I found out, I didn't hate her, but I was CRUSHED that she could do this to ME. I still have trouble with that part, and of course, I still have trouble with my H, and how HE could do this to me, for 2 1/2 months, knowing how much pain I was in. I know it hurts him now, when we talk and he sees how much pain I was in, to know that he caused it, and the worst, for him, is that he lost my trust, something he had valued for such a long time in our relationship.

For me, I just have such a hard time understanding how anyone can do this to someone they love. He says, that at first, when it crossed the line from emotional affair to kissing, he was thinking "cool, I can have the best of both worlds" and that lasted about a week. But he knew I was suspicious, and watching him closely. I have such a hard time because during October, we all 3 worked together a LOT, had such great times,then I have to look back and think "were they touching when my back was turned? were they sending each other secret looks?" and it just goes round and round in my head. She says that is when it stared to change for the worse for them, which I guess makes sense, but I still don't get, and probably never will, how either of them could FACE me day after day, knowing what they were doing. I tried to explain to my H how humiliated it made me feel, thinking they were laughing about me behind my back, and he said it was never like that. I actually DO believe him, because I listed to HOURS of tapes, both with them in the same car and on the phone, and never heard a bad word about me, actually heard lots of GOOD things about me. Which just makes it ever HARDER for me to get. They both say it would have been a lot easier for THEM if I was a bitch, or being mean to them, but I treated them both so well.

Right after I found out, they were still talking on the phone, primarily about what they'd done. Had to tell both of them, separately (we don't all 3 talk together,that would be just TOO strange) to stop talking to each other about it, that they had crossed the line into emotional infidelity in the first place by discussing personal stuff, and that it wasn't fair to ME for them to continue wallowing in their guilt together. They agreed they were being selfish and stupid and stopped right away. I felt (and still do feel) bad that she has no one to talk to about this, while I have my H and my best friend. She has violated her own morals and beliefs by doing this, and she's having a tough time forgiving herself, and I can't imagine not having anyone to share that with, but since she considered ME her best friend, and the only one she COULD tell something like this to, she has no one.

My best friend at first thought I was nuts for not only keeping her in the company (she is a valuable employee, and I'm trying to be objective and keep those separate), but to try and repair our friendship. She says she would NEVER do that, but after about a week, she admits that for ME, she's not surprised that I chose this, that its actually the only thing she could see me doing, because of who I am.

It's hard, but it's getting easier. The more details I found out, the easier it got each day. My imagination had them having sex every unaccounted for moment; being in love but choosing to stay with their spouses out of duty, elevating their A to some fantasy that would forever stay as some great thing that alas, just couldn't be; etc..

We haven't done counseling, not sure we're going to, because I just don't know what "more" I need from that, you know? I know he's sorry, I know he says it was "so not worth it", I know he says "he's never going down that road again" and I believe him. I just still have so much trouble accepting that he was willing to throw it all away, lose me and our marriage, over something "so not worth it".

Christine:

Welcome. I'm glad you found our site and decided to post.

There's much about your story that could overlay on to mine. I won't go into the details, but many of the ways in which my wife described her attitude about her affair are reflected in your husband's descriptions.

As far as them doing this to you... I understand that feeling. I felt that same thing, and I still do at times. However, the rational truth is that when they were doing things, they weren't lashing out at you as much as they were committing selfish acts that they hoped you'd never know about. In other words, their actions weren't about you, they were almost exclusively about them.

The situation you describe, remaining in close contact with the OW, from what I've read over the years is somewhat unique although not entirely. There have been several people who've remained in contact with the OP, primarily due to work situations. We've also had situations where the OP was a member of the BS's extended family. I can't say that these have gone well in general. The difficulty of dealing with both wayward spouse (WS) and other person (OP) at the same time AND with them in contact is certainly an immense emotional challenge for you. In some situations the wayward spouse has made claims that the affair is over and they want reconciliation, but in truth they were still romantically involved with the affair partner. In other situations the affair partner has not been very supportive of the betrayed spouse's efforts to work on reconciliation.

You certainly have a difficult situation due to the conflict of your financial interdependence and subsequent need for the OW, but your equal (if not more important) need to maximize your chances of making a full recovery of your marriage.

If you continue in this way, it would be wise to put in place some protections against any unfair tactics from your husband and the OW. For example, you could have him place assets into your name only, and give you full rights to them without any claim in the event of divorce. You could require that you have access to monies that would allow you to employee private investigators at your discretion to confirm that their relationship does not include any inappropriate contact and conversations. I'm sure there are other possibilities.

In the end you are in charge of your recovery, and you can choose the path you take. While people on this site will inform you of their opinions, ultimately the choices on how you should proceed are yours to make.

TomJ

Thanks, Tom, for your reply, there is certainly a lot to consider in this type of situation. And you have some great advice there.

Financially, I'm not concerned, as I am in charge of the money, personally and business wise.

Emotionally, yes, it is tough dealing with continued contact. And what you said about people you know using an opportunity like this to continue the affair is DEFINITELY something I've thought a lot about. I mean, for those 2 1/2 months that it was going on, he thought he was doing a good job of covering his tracks, and they were both pretty amazed at my detective work. Now, I am truly pretty sure there is nothing going on. I'd like to say I'm completely sure, but I've learned that is not possible. This was so out of character for BOTH of them. I realize many people probably say that, and all anyone here has to go from is words from me.

The thing is, whether she works of us or not, if they WERE going to continue their affair, they could. It's actually EASIER for me that she's working for us, because I can keep better track of her!

And, frankly, if this is all an incredible ruse to keep me off track, and they're still continuing their affair, it will come out, and there would be no hope of reconciling. I made that pretty clear, and his whole demeanor is much different now that I know. The nervousness is gone, the stumbling over his words is wrong, the vague explanations of what they're working on are gone. They both check in, and often, and I don't have that feeling in my stomach that I had for so long. The first month was the hardest, but it does get easier each day.

Thanks again for your reply

And, I meant to comment on this part: <<As far as them doing this to you... I understand that feeling. I felt that same thing, and I still do at times. However, the rational truth is that when they were doing things, they weren't lashing out at you as much as they were committing selfish acts that they hoped you'd never know about. In other words, their actions weren't about you, they were almost exclusively about them>>

I've read enough to know that this is an almost classic, universal thing, but I still have trouble with it! How could it NOT be about me? I understand they didn't wake up one day and say "hey, let's hurt christine by having an affair"...I understand that they weren't doing this "to" me, but how can people compartmentalize like that???

>I understand that they weren't doing this "to" me, but how can people compartmentalize like that???

Not to trivialize this, but have you ever done something with the thought "Just this once will be OK." For example, while on a diet thought "I know I shouldn't eat this, but just a little bit will be OK." I think the WS has a thought that is a gross exaggeration of that. "I know I'm married, but just this 'little thing here' will be OK." The little thing here starts off with something small but inappropriate... a flirt that crosses a line, a touch that is out of bounds... then it escalates to a kiss and eventually to sex if it's not stopped somewhere along the way.

I think that's a process we're all familiar with on some level, and it's not much different in the affair, even though the consequences are so much more severe.

TomJ

Hello Christine and welcome. I am sorry you find yourself hear under these circumstances.

I will say, you sound like you have things under control. Me and my WH have our own business as well, and I can tell you right now there is NO WAY I would allow an employee who cheated with my H to stay on my payroll. It's bad enough my WH's A was with a customer (and old party buddy from long ago). The OW found out we had a business and decided to start dropping by. Of course she would stop by when I had already gone home with the kids, and just when WH was about to close up. So, she would hang out with WH and "talk" while he was closing up. OW and my WH started off as "just friends" and then they started back up as party buddies. It turned from talking after work, to getting high. This went on for about year (unknown to me of course) before they actually had sex. He started coming home later and later and later. I too confronted many, many times and Wh would always deny it. This went on for 2 more years. Then one day OW calls out of the blue and tells me of the A. WH could not deny it any longer but he tried. He said OW called because he had broken up with her and she was getting back at him. I believed him. He was trying, so it seemed, but nothing really seemed to get better really. My gut was telling me something still was not right. Again I accused, and he denied for another 2 years. Finally, I hired a PI and got the proof I needed. The A lasted a total of 5 years (1 year EA, and 4 years PA).

I asked WH how he could hook back up with her after he saw how much it hurt me and after he promised it was over between them. He said she called him and they just talked. he also said she had no one to talk to about it and neither did he. He said he couldnt talk to me (cause he was afraid). He thought they could remain friends. Then one night she showed up again at our business, and one thing led to another and the next thing ya know it was full blown PA again. He spent a lot less time with her and was acting like the model husband, but he was still cheating. He just got better at hiding it. My WH also never said a bad thing about me to OW either (or so he says). I am also not a bitch and am considered a nice person by just about everyone I know. He says they never talked about me at all (maybe if they acted like I didnt exist maybe I wouldnt exist). WH also claimed he had not plans of leaving me and the kids.

Please be prepared, there may be more to the story than they are telling you. We have had many people here who never thought the A turned physical and found out otherwise down the road. And some have had many, many d-days. If they are emotionally attached it is even harder, especially if they still have any contact. Contact makes it harder to break that emotional bond.

There are some books suggestions located on the left of this page. The link says "resources". "Not Just Friends" is one I would definately reccomend. The book helped me a lot and it is the first book I read after d-day. It may help you understand how they could do this and compartmentalise like that.

Take care and (((((((((((((hugs)))))))))))))


~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

<<We all say similar phrases, mostly just about out spouses, I know I said it too. In time you will learn that while this may be so, there are things about his character and coping skills that allowed him to enter the affair that have always been there. We tend to refer to them as red flags, and boundary problems. Figuring these things out for both of you is a key part of healing and restoring trust.>>

Oh yes, we have definitely discussed that, it was one of my key questions "what, about you, made it possible for you to do this; and what are you going to do to change that?". When I said he's my total opposite, he really is, and that's been a GOOD thing up to this point, you know? Because while I understand (not condone, not accept, just understand) the initial attraction and how it makes the person feel "good again", I DON'T get how he could continue it for so long and not be consumed by guilt. I know 2 1/2 months isn't THAT long, but pretty much ANYTHING is too long when it comes to affairs. And his basic personality is such that he COULD obviously do this. Not well, obviously, since he got caught, but to be able to do it at all, and face me each day, boggles my mind.

<<Don’t take away your option to have her out of your life. Personally, I would think if she was truly remorseful, she would do the right thing and leave. I would think the shame of it would be too much for her.>>

Oh, it's ALWAYS an option, and they've both known that from the beginning. And she did offer to leave, immediately, but I'M the one who said no. I felt that she was just running away and not facing her problem, which is how she got into this in the first place. Having trouble in her own marriage, and not facing that, was a perfect example of that. The letters I wrote to her were VERY straight forward, no holding back on my end, and I know they really hit home. At the time, I was simply trying to make it through the days without totally falling apart. I found out on Monday, on Wednesday, I had family coming to stay for Thanksgiving, and having her leave at that point would have been too "messy" in that it would have required my husband to cover much of her work. And, it would have generated too much "gossip", and I wasn't ready to deal with that. And I would have had to explain to my arriving family why she stopped working for us with no notice, and I had already decided at that point not to tell ANYONE in my family. Because I didn't want them to change their feelings for my H. They've always loved him, but since we (my family) had a father who cheated for a LONG time on our mother,it's kind of a hot button issue for us, and I knew they'd never understand my staying.

There had been a "rumor" going around our business, that they were having an affair, right about the time I started suspecting myself, and we all laughed about it (well,I wasn't laughing inside).

Also, we live in a very small community, and yes, I admit, I was trying to save face. If this came out, it would destroy so many different relationships, and I'm just not ready to do that. Our families have been close, sharing holidays, vacations, etc.. She's watched our daughter too many times to count, I've watched her kids (when they were younger). My husband and I discussed what would have happened if this HAD been a great love affair and they left their spouses for each other. He said if that had happened, obviously they would have had to move away, because it would be impossible to co-exist in this town with that kind of "scandal"

<<I can’t imagine that he would have been able to work side by side with her on anything successfully.>>

They're both very uncomfortable working together now, and see, that was one of my problems after finding out. My husband and I had many talks about it, because I wanted to know "If you want her to leave the company, is it because you're afraid you can't work with her without cheating? Is it going to be such a sacrifice on your part to just have a business relationship with her?Because if THAT'S the reason, then I don't see the point in her leaving, because we all still live her, and you'll still see her, and you don't have to work together to have an affair". It's like I said before, I was worried that because the affair didn't end on its own, it would always have this "what if" quality attached to it. Like they were being "noble" and staying with their spouses, but forever wondering what could have been. I told him I don't WANT you under those circumstances, I deserve WAY better than that.

And even though they both insisted that it was already ending, I know that if I hadn't ever found my "proof", I wouldn't have been able to move past this, because I KNEW and it was eating me up. She even said she had been planning to end it the Friday before I came out, that she felt the only reason it was continuing on was because he was worried about her and how she'd take it, and she hates herself for not doing it. But really,I told her that it wouldn't have helped, because I would have forever been looking for proof. So, although I wish it HAD ended on its own, and not been "forced" to end, I know that for me, I'm better off knowing.

<<Read what ever you can about infidelity, knowledge is a healing in its own way. A good MC (there are many bad ones), can help a couple deal with the roller coaster of emotions that you go through, and help a WS discover the issues that lead to the affair. But it is up to you whether to go or not. The affair is not about the BS or the marriage. Problems can cause a person to be more vulnerable, but it is the issues with in the person that allows them to go down that road. Not only go down that road, but to lie to their spouse and justify and ignore the destruction they cause.<<

I have read a LOT. I ordered "Not Just Friends" the very day I found out, and read and re-read and read it to him (he doesn't read well). I also downloaded the stuff from Ask Peggy, the books online. They were lifesavers to me, because everything they recommend, about how to talk about it and what you want to know, made me realize I was NOT crazy for "obsessing" about the details. His thought process was "why would you want to know any more, doesn't it just hurt all over again?" He realizes that I do need to know, and to talk about it, but he said if it was him,he wouldn't want to know.

Thanks for all your advice, this place is great.

<<I will say, you sound like you have things under control. Me and my WH have our own business as well, and I can tell you right now there is NO WAY I would allow an employee who cheated with my H to stay on my payroll.>>

I know it sounds like something out of Jerry Springer! It is really hard to describe why I am continuing to have her not just work for us, but to try to repair the friendship. I guess I feel like, if I can forgive HIM, why shouldn't I forgive HER? And believe me, it's something I struggle with daily. This sounds strange, and I don't know if it will come out right, but in some ways, the betrayal was even worse from her. Well, not worse, because he's my husband, but I always felt like there should be this "code" among friends, among women. There are just some things you don't DO to other women, and this is obviously one of them. I could never, ever, do something like this to a friend, or ANY woman for that matter. And I felt that way even BEFORE this happened.

She was a very good friend, and I actually still feel very bad for her. I know that if her husband found out, he'd leave her, and they've been married like 20+ years (married young) and have grandkids! She even said to me that she wishes her husband loved her as much as I obviously love mine, because she knows that he wouldn't "fight" for her if he found this out. One of the first things she said when she answered my first letter was that "S (my husband) chose you long before you discovered this. There WAS never any choice to be made." And that she hates herself for doing something so wrong to someone she considered family. She also said that she believes that if she hadn't "opened the door", he never would have crossed that line. And I think I actually believe that, because of the way my husband is.

He's a flirt, always has been, never bothered me before. When we go out, he dances with lots of women (I'm right there, but I cant' dance), didn't ever bother me. She is also a flirt, and she said that my letters have made her realize that there's something "not right" about the way she acts and that prior to this, she didn't think twice about it, it was just "her personality". But now, she realizes its not a GOOD part of her personality, and she has to think twice before she acts/talks. It's not like she throws herself at other men, or tries to seduce them....if anyone knew about the affair, they would truly be totally shocked, she's just not "that kind of person". I told her that because she was abused by her father and stepfathers at such a young age, I think it's made her seek approval/attention from men, and not be concerned with how other women view her. She's always said "I get along much better with guys than with girls, most of my friends have been guys" and I always told her "hearing that ALWAYS makes me cringe, because there's usually a reason why you're closer to men, and it's not a good reason". Now, she's starting to see that.

I think one thing that still bothers me a lot is that she and i are such total opposites, and if he was attracted to that, then why is he with ME? I don't mean physically, although, in the beginning that was an issue. I was heavy (so was she until they started this, then she lost like 30 lbs), but I started losing right away and that actually helped because I felt so much better about MYSELF, and I couldn't say "well, of course he had an affair, why would he be attracted to me when I dont' even like myself?". ANd I am NOT saying that if someone gains weight, that gives their spouse an excuse to cheat! I just mean that, for me, I felt so bad about myself, and how I looked, and that by changing that and getting the physical part out of the way, I was able to more clearly focus on what I felt, and wanted.

Anyway, I am one of those "always in control of my emotions" kind of person. I NEVER cry in front of people (well, until this), I never lose my temper, I've never yelled at my husband, or daughter, or anyone for that matter. I dont' jump to conclusions, I weigh everything over in my mind before making decisions, and I almost never say anything without thinking about what I'm saying first. Does that make sense? SHE is emotional,cries more easily, quick to lose patience, and talks pretty much non stop. And, I don't "hold on to things"..like if someone pisses me off, or does something mean, I get over it quickly. She holds on to things forever. And when I ask him now, he says that of course he doesn't "prefer" that, or he wouldn't have married someone like me. I sometimes wonder if he was attracted to her because she was "needy" and it made him feel strong. She actually said that she thinks that was one of the reasons. And she said it's a real ego killer to know that even though he was obviously attracted enough to have an affair, he wasn't "in love" with her and had no intentions of leaving me.

<<Please be prepared, there may be more to the story than they are telling you. We have had many people here who never thought the A turned physical and found out otherwise down the road. And some have had many, many d-days. If they are emotionally attached it is even harder, especially if they still have any contact. Contact makes it harder to break that emotional bond.>>

Yes, I am prepared. One of the things I read, I think it was Dr. Phil's site, was about deciding whether to stay and try to make the marriage work. It said "if it happens again, will it destroy you? Because if it will,then think twice about it". I decided that if it didn't destroy me the first time, it won't destroy me if it happens again. But, I'm 99.9% sure that if it DID happen again, I'd leave.

That's yet ANOTHER thing that was hard to deal with. My whole life, I have always said that if my husband cheated on me, I'd be gone in a heartbeat. And he knew this. And I've asked "if you KNEW this, then what that says to me is that you didn't CARE if I left. I mean, if you knew that me finding out would mean I'd leave you, why would you still DO it?". Because that makes no sense to me. Why wouldn't he just confess the first time I confronted him, we'd divorce, end of story. Because we've talked a lot about how scared he was of me finding out and leaving him, that he lived his own hell for those 2 1/2 months....I just can't wrap my mind around that part of it. And it was hard to look at myself and realize that I didn't WANT to leave him, that all my strong beliefs about what I would do, when FACED with it, flew out the window.

It's still something I struggle with, and I try to believe that this doesn't make me a WEAK person, it actually shows that I'm STRONG. BUT, I truly think that if this wasn't over, if they did start again, I'd leave, because while I'm a very forgiving person, I don't think I could do it again. And, it would say to me that every single thing he's said and done since I found out was a lie.

<<There are some books suggestions located on the left of this page. The link says "resources". "Not Just Friends" is one I would definately reccomend. The book helped me a lot and it is the first book I read after d-day. It may help you understand how they could do this and compartmentalise like that>>

I read that book and loved it, and while it did "intellectually" help me see the compartmentalizing", I still struggle with that part of it. I don't get how you can look someone in the eyes, day after day, make love to them, eat dinner with them, assure them that nothing is going on..and then continue to have an affair.

I wish you well, Christine. It seems as though you've tried to keep a level head through this and you are staying strong. And your husband seems to be doing and saying all the right things. I know I wouldn't be able to be so forgiving of a "friend' who betrayed me; that takes a lot of fortitude.

<<I don't get how you can look someone in the eyes, day after day, make love to them, eat dinner with them, assure them that nothing is going on..and then continue to have an affair.>>

I am with you on that. It's been about a year and a half for me, and I still don't get that.

<<I wish you well, Christine. It seems as though you've tried to keep a level head through this and you are staying strong. And your husband seems to be doing and saying all the right things.>>

Thanks for the well wishes, they really do help, just wish we weren't all in this same boat!

I am trying to keep a level head and stay strong, but don't always succeed, and need to occasionally remind myself that crying is a GOOD thing sometimes. Like last night!

My husband is doing and saying the right things, I know he truly regrets this to the very core of his soul, and that he would do anything to make it go away, but he can't make it not have happened, and he can't explain the whole compartmentalizing thing to my satisfaction. Which, after reading so much here, including the post this morning, is probably not rational on MY part, to expect that I'll "get it".

<<I know I wouldn't be able to be so forgiving of a "friend' who betrayed me; that takes a lot of fortitude.>>

If I've learned one thing from all this, it's never say never! I would never have expected to first, stay with my husband who cheated, and second, to try to stay friends with the woman he cheated with. But here I am.

Christine

<I think you are doing well>>

Thank you, some days are better than others, and every day is better than before I actually "knew".

<<But what I see is you trying to maintain control over the situation, by owning other peoples behaviors. You talk about you being the reason the OW continues to work for your company. Ultimately the decision is always hers, not yours.>>

When I said she wanted to leave immediately after my finding out, it was more for her to avoid the situation, not have to face me, and not have to continue to hurt me. Later letters, and talks, she said that she loves her job, and doesn't want to quit, but that she would, in a heartbeat, if that is what I wanted. I do realize she could quit anytime, I simply meant that the initial decision, right after D day, was mine in that I didn't say "get the hell out of my life".

<<And with your H, I see you as the one in charge, both with finances and the marriage, you lead. By doing this you in away absolve him of certain responsibilities in your mind, again maintaining control. I am only speculating, I can be wrong. I note these things because it was a way of thinking I have used in my life and have worked very hard to recognize and alter. I know that, for me, the reason I did these things was that in control I created for myself the illusion of safety. So, in my healing I had to let go of the idea that I had the control. I would like to suggest you think about doing the same.>>

I think you are correct, I have always been more "in charge" of certain things, both in our businesses and in our lives. If you knew my husband, you'd see why, because he's kind of hard to describe accurately. He's not "educated", meaning he dropped out of school sometime during high school, he doesn't even know when. He can read well enough to function, but if I had to guess, I'd put his reading/comprehension level somewhere around late elementary school. He's not "stupid", don't get me wrong, he's very intelligent, just never got an education. His mother was married 7 times, and his upbringing was VERY dysfunctional. I believe he has ADD, but he's never been diagnosed. He can write, but very few people can decipher his writing, because the spelling is atrocious. He is very easy to get along with, everyone that meets him not only loves him, but remembers him forever. He's the "creative" and "salesman" side of our business, I'm the practical, detail side of it. He can talk to anyone, anytime, about anything...I find it excruciating to talk to people I don't know. In his words, just last night, he's a "simple guy".

He has admitted to everything; has described the feelings he was feeling that allowed him to start the affair, and continue it in the face of my questions; he has said he WAS terrified I'd leave him, although I still have trouble with that part too, because if he was so terrified, why didn't he STOP?? We talked a long time last night, and I told him I DO understand how it started, I DO even understand how that first time happened, that they crossed the line, but I DON'T understand how it continued, because, for me, if I'd ever made a "mistake" like that, got carried away and crossed that line, I'd never have done it again. I doubt if I would have confessed it, either, even though I like to think of myself as an honest person, but I certainly wouldn't have continued doing it, you know?

I do agree that I try too hard to have control, thinking that it keeps me safe. But I think the problem, since the A started, is that I WASN'T in control anymore, and it threw me for a loop. Our lives are hectic, we have major stresses with our businesses, but we've never had any major fights about it, we never fought at all, because both of us, despite being total opposites in almost every other, are quite similar in Temperament. We don't over-react, we look at things logically, etc.. And I think that I AM trying to "control" things now by allowing her to continue to work for us, because, as I said before, at least I know where she is supposed to be, and I can check her cell phone (it's a company phone). If she wasn't working for us, while I'd know where HE is supposed to be, I wouldn't know for her, does that make sense?

During our talk last night, I told him it's NOT that I think he's still cheating, I truly, honestly believe he wouldn't do that again, but when they're both out of our town (which happens often, and I don’t mean overnights or anything), it starts "triggers" because that is how/when the meetings took place. This was never an affair where he'd say "I have to do a tour" and then they'd meet. Or he'd say "I have a meeting" but he'd really meet her. Because I would KNOW if there was a tour, and he was doing it. And I would KNOW if he had a meeting, and when it was. It was 99.9% of the time that they'd steal a few minutes, a half hour at the most, AFTER a tour, or a meeting. So now, when they have to do a tour together, or have a meeting together, it just brings it all back. So my control now, is knowing what time they're supposed to be done. And, having them drive separate cars when they do have meetings, even though it means double the gas.

She and I have talked about it too, because when I made the decision to have her stay with the company, I put down some "ground rules" and they have more than followed them. Even when she has to come to my house, for meetings or drop stuff off, if I end up having to leave the house, and they're the only ones here, she leaves when I do, so they're not alone in the house. And that was HER idea, although if she hadn't done it first, I would have asked her to.

Our biggest problem now, is that he, in his mind, is done with the affair, he's committed to never going down that road again, he's relieved that it's over because "it just wasn't fun anymore" and was 99% stress and 1% pleasure, and he has no desire to do that anymore; in MY mind, I can't see how it can just shut off like that. He likened it to being hit by a 2x4 when I found out. He said it was like his whole life flashed before his eyes in the very moment I told him about the tape, and all he could think was "how could I be such a freaking idiot?" and that he'd just lost me for good. He compared the affair to “surfing”, riding this cool, huge wave that made him feel great, but then after it crested, it crashed and he was tumbling down, then thrashing around, caught underwater.

I also still have trouble with the fact that neither of them can give me many “details”. He is horrible with “dates” and it’s not something that just surfaced with the affair, he’s always been the kind of guy who would say “what is today, February something?” when in reality, we’d be in March. I’m the one who “reconstructed” the timeline of the affair, based on my spreadsheet and when my “gut feeling” surfaced, and while I pretty much believe it’s accurate, I can’t know for sure, you know? He can’t even tell me the first time they kissed, what month, where it was. I told him I understand not remembering the exact “day” or “time”, I DON’T understand not remembering where he was, or what was said immediately following that “first kiss”. I mean, if I’d done something so monumentally life altering, I’d sure as heck remember every detail about what I’d felt and said!

And then we talk about how I can be sure it won’t happen again, with her or anyone else. My point is, if he’s saying it would NEVER have happened with anyone else, only with her because of the unique circumstances of them working so much together during that time, and her being in a bad place in her marriage, then I have to think that she is so special to him that he was willing to risk his whole marriage for her, and it COULD happen again. On the flip side, if he says it could have been ANYONE because of the place HE was in at the time, then how do I know it won’t happened again with someone else???? And then, I have to remind myself that there ARE no guarantees it won’t happen again, there really isn’t ANYTHING he can tell me that is “right”.

The only major problem I have right now with her is that, early on, when we talked, I asked her if she would tell me if he ever suggested starting the affair again, or if she knew about him starting with someone else. She said she would tell HIM to tell me (and that she would never do it again, she’d cut off her own arm before she’d do that again), and that she’d give him 1 day, and then she’d tell me. That wasn’t what I wanted to hear, I wanted to hear that she would tell me right away. Because any other answer means her loyalty is still primarily to HIM, not to ME or our marriage. I haven’t mentioned it to her, but I did to my husband.

<<A book that helped me tremendously in this area (along with a wonderful counselor) was “the Dance of intimacy” by Harriet Lerner PhD. You might want to check out the book.<<

I just ordered that AND The Dance of Connection by her also, they look like great reads.

Thank you for your post, it has made me think of more things I need to be thinking about. One of the things he said to me, before I found out but when I still suspected, was that I think too much. I countered that he didn’t think ENOUGH.

I KNOW I’m not in control, I know that he could choose to do it again, I know that there is absolutely NOTHING I can do to stop it: I can keep my spreadsheet, I can check his and her phones, I can make sure they never drive in a car together, I can even put tape recorders in the cars again or hire a P.I., but I CAN’T stop him from doing it again. What I can, and have done, is tell him that if it DOES happen again, I’d leave him faster than his life could flash before his eyes. Because while I’m willing to make this marriage work and do everything I can to do that, I wouldn’t be able to ever trust him again if it happened a second time.

And, when does the trust come back? I don’t want to be some Pollyanna about this and say “I trust you, I know you’d never do this again” and stop checking things out that I do now. But I would like to get to that place I was before, where I never even QUESTIONED that he was faithful, it never even crossed my mind that he’d cheat.

I told him last night that he was no longer the person I thought he was, and he was crushed. He said he’s still the same person, he just screwed up royally, but that deep down, he’s still the same guy. I said for me, he’s NOT the same guy, because THAT guy was someone I trusted completely. He has no problems with answering any questions about where he is, or with me checking his phone, he knows that it’s going to take a long time before he can walk out the door without giving me a hour by hour schedule of what he’s planning to do that day. But it does “bug” him, for lack of a better word. It “bugs” him, but he knows he caused it, and that is what REALLY bugs him.

Thanks again for all your help, you sound like you’re in a really good place

Hey, Christine! A welcome from me as well...with all the regrets attached that I have for anyone who finds themselves in this situation.

I, too, hear a lot of strength in your voice and you seem to be handling things fairly well considering how recently DDay was. Keep on keepin' on.

Your most recent post propelled me to write. You asked when the trust comes back. Sadly, the answer most likely is never...at least not in the way we had it for our spouses before. Blind trust or complete trust most likely is not going to come back. It really wouldn't be logical to say I completely trust my H at the point I can historically point to a time when he wasn't trustworthy, and in fact did things very selfishly and detrimentally to our marriage. I do believe trust will come back, but it will be a more mature trust that is probably given from you as trustworthy behavior is given to you. There is a period of grieving for this lost trust. I miss it terribly, but its kind of like learning there is no santa claus or tooth fairy.

I need to get hopping on with the day, but am sure we will chat further in the future. I can already tell you'll be a source of good suggestions and opinions going forward for other newbies if you choose to do so. Welcome to our "community", Christine. BlueIris

"We cannot wait for the storm to pass; we must learn to walk in the rain."

<<Hey, Christine! A welcome from me as well...with all the regrets attached that I have for anyone who finds themselves in this situation.>>

Thanks, BlueIris, for the welcome, although it's not the kind of "club" I ever envisioned myself joining!!

<<I, too, hear a lot of strength in your voice and you seem to be handling things fairly well considering how recently DDay was. Keep on keepin' on.>>

I think "fairly well" is an apt description. It helps that my husband is so committed, although, if he wasn't, I guess I wouldn't be here either, because I'd be in some divorced forum instead!

<<Your most recent post propelled me to write. You asked when the trust comes back. Sadly, the answer most likely is never...at least not in the way we had it for our spouses before. Blind trust or complete trust most likely is not going to come back. It really wouldn't be logical to say I completely trust my H at the point I can historically point to a time when he wasn't trustworthy, and in fact did things very selfishly and detrimentally to our marriage. I do believe trust will come back, but it will be a more mature trust that is probably given from you as trustworthy behavior is given to you. There is a period of grieving for this lost trust. >>

While that sucks to hear, it's not really surprising, you know? It's just that before, we spent a lot of time away from each other, business wise, not personally, and I never, in over 18 years together, even QUESTIONED anything he did, because I'd never have believed this could happen. And I know people may think I'm naive for thinking it never DID happen before, but I'd bet pretty much everything I have that it never did. In fact, he used to comment on how nice it was that I wasn't the "jealous" type, and didn't think every woman he met was a potential threat, and that he didn't get "nagged" about checking in all the time like some of his friends. Looking back, those friends were probably former cheaters which is why their wives "nagged"..and I HATE that word.

<<I miss it terribly, but its kind of like learning there is no santa claus or tooth fairy.>>

I miss it too, and he misses it even more,but what do you mean, there is no santa claus or tooth fairy??? You just burst another bubble for me.

<<I need to get hopping on with the day, but am sure we will chat further in the future. I can already tell you'll be a source of good suggestions and opinions going forward for other newbies if you choose to do so. Welcome to our "community", Christine. BlueIris>>

I don't know how good I'd be at giving "advice", since the path I've chosen as far as the OW goes against pretty much every bit of advice I've read, but if anybody can learn from my story, I'll gladly share.

One thing I did want to comment on, after seeing a post about someone who confronted their spouse about contact from the OM, without giving the spouse the chance to "confess" (and I don't remember who wrote it and I'm too lazy to look it up): I've been there and completely understand jumping the gun like that. The first time I tried to get "evidence", I set up a Video Camera in my kitchen, when they were cooking for a group. I was going to the local sandwich shop with a bunch of kids (including the OW's son). They were doing the group after cooking, so I had a few hours to "review" it before they got back. On over an hour and a half of tape, the only "suspicious" thing was them going into the laundry room off my kitchen, gone for 75 seconds. I KNEW they went in there to kiss, but of course, my camera couldn't shoot around corners!

As soon as my husband got home, I confronted him. He denied it, said they must have gone in there to "get something" (I knew there was nothing in there to "get"), but knew anyway. I could have kicked myself for confronting him without real proof, and when I told my best friend that I'd confronted him, she was like "and you TOLD him you taped him??? And got NOTHING??? That was something you should have taken to your GRAVE!! At least until you got something better!". Anyway, I promised him that night not to ever videotape him again (stupid on my part, looking back), but I never said anything about voice recorders, which is how I finally caught him.

Christine, at least we still have the Easter Bunny

"We cannot wait for the storm to pass; we must learn to walk in the rain."

I borrowed this from SI. I thought it might help.

Q: How do you deal with, not just the betrayal of your spouse, but a betrayal of your friend, who is now the OW? - A double betrayal!! Submitted by Stupidme

A: This is an extremely difficult situation to deal with. When your friend betrays your friendship and you, as well as your H betraying your marriage and you, it is a double betrayal. Not only do you have so many questions of your H, but also you have just as many questions of your friend. Your emotions are exceptionally hard to recapitulate (sum up). You just cannot understand why, the two most trusted people in your life would do this to you and I guess you may never know.

One of the first stages I went through was total denial, that what was happening right in front of me, was actually not happening. Neither my friend, nor my H would have the nerve or audacity to flaunt their behaviors in front of me. I thought it was my imagination in overdrive. That I was being paranoid and that my eyes were not seeing straight. I thought I was making a mountain out of a molehill. I came up with many excuses for their behavior. Absolute denial.

The next stage is to understand that all the intense feelings, including jealousy, (your gut instincts) are telling you that something is very wrong within the friendship and your marriage. These gut instincts are a warning that your personal boundaries have been crossed and you need to heed the warnings (red flags) and be vigilant. In hindsight, I feel that if I had the knowledge, I could have figured out what was happening and put a stop to it then and there. But because of our friendship, I refused to believe that, what I was thinking could possibly be happening or true. If I had the time over, I would put my fear to one side and just say what I needed to say. Fear held me back. I feared that I would destroy the friendship. I did not understand at that time, that this woman was not really my friend. I did not see that we were a game to her and we were pawns on the board. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Once you come out of the denial stage (and I guess you could call this a fog for the BS as well) and actually understand the existent of this double betrayal is where it gets tough. You have many decisions to make. You have to decide how to deal with your so-called friend. Should I confront her? Do I tell her H? Will I get the truth? Why did she do this to me? She was my friend!! How could she do this to me? You will remember all the good times you have had together. The trips away, the social events you went to.

The BBQ's and the dinners you had in each other's home? etc etc. But now these memories are the past. It was and will never be again. And then you will have to deal with the 'where' these events took place. Did it happen In your home? Your lounge? Your bed? Your backyard? It will drive you crazy because, being your friend she knows your home and you inside out. You have shared "women's talk" and confided in each other, and you will not be able to comprehend how she could do this to you. Unfathomable. Confusing. Affronting. Distressing. Furious. Loathsome. Rejection. Betrayal. Disrespected. It will eat you up.

This is where your WS has to tell you the truth and all of it, so you can at least have the opportunity to rid yourself of things and memories that may trigger you in your own home. I had to give away all the gifts she had given me. I could not deal with having any reminders of her or what she had done. All forms of contract with your friend have to be severed so as to allow yourself time to evaluated what she has done to you and your friendship and also what this has done to your marriage. NC has to be established immediately.

My belief is that you have to sort things out with your H first and foremost, before you allow yourself the time to evaluate your ex-friend (now the OW). It will be easier for you to understand the 'how' and 'why' from your H, than from her. Your H is your partner in life and in time you will be able to forgive him and regain your trust and love with him. He may also help you understand as to how the friendship went further than it should have. You will probably ask him the same question 100 times, and you will never really understand how it happened.

As your friend, the possibility of her trying to contact you is real, and if she is truly remorseful, maybe communication is possible. Remember thought that she may lie to you, as she has in the past, and may start blaming your spouse and spreading malicious rumors about you and your H. The only way is to forgive your ex-friend in your heart. You don't necessarily need to tell her this. Forgiveness is a gift to yourself, to allow yourself the freedom of anger you have towards her. You must rid her out of your life and mind though.

Reconciliation can only work when your ex-friend, now the OW, is completely out of you life. It takes a lot of effort and time for you to be able to rid yourself of her completely.





~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

Thanks, SoCalGal, the article was interesting. I don't feel that I have to cut her out of our lives in order for me to heal. I know it's not the conventional way, and I know that many people feel what I'm doing is "playing with fire", or completely naive, or just totally stupid. But, the more I talk to my husband, the better I feel about all of it.

My husband is totally remorseful, he is being open and honest, not just about "what" happened, but about his emotions before, during and after. He hates what he did to me, and I can see the pain in him when we talk about it. And he has been this way since I hit with the 2x4 of the tape. There was never any question in HIS mind that he wanted to stay married (there was in MINE, of course).

As for her, as I said, she is like family, and despite what she did, I still care for her. My first reaction on finding out for sure, was to tell her husband. But after that white hot anger passed, I realized that I would be telling him ONLY to hurt her, and that would hurt him, their kids, the community, etc..

I feel sorry for her that she has no one to work through this with, and I plan to encourage her to seek counseling...I can't imagine carrying around that guilt and shame that she is feeling.

I have learned a lot, both here and from reading, and one of the major things I've learned is that while there are similarities in every affair, there are also many, many differences. And the healing can't be all according to a set of rules. Yes, I believe some of the basics MUST be done: the affair must stop, the one who cheated must be totally truthful about everything, must agree to be checked up on, turn over whatever the BS needs to do the checking up; but I don't believe that no contact has to occur in situations where the person is family, or as close as you can be without blood.

If either one of them was NOT being open at this point, if either one of them was NOT committed to making my marriage work, if either one of them was NOT observing the "rules" I put in place, if I thought there was any chance this A was still going on...yes, of course then I would insist on no contact,insist she leave our lives.

But that's not the case, and I feel that this is best for us, and our situation. I would like to find more articles that discuss this kind of situation, because I do like to learn as much as possible.
Thanks again.

I have to agree with everything that Ami said.

I too believe that once people cross the boundary from a freindship that turns into an A (whether EA, PA, or both) you cannot go back to being "just friends" (the book "Not Just Friends" explains this very well). It is just like being an alcoholic. Once you cross the boundary from casual drinker to become an alcoholic there is no such thing as having "just one drink". It doesnt work that way. You cannot expect an alcoholic to go to a bar and not drink, or not WANT to drink. That is what like continued contact is for the WS and the OP...a temptation they may not be able to resist for long. There is a reason why the number one rule in affair recovery is no contact. Continued contact keeps the WS and OP in the A fog. Without no contact the fog will remain.

I know you feel your situation is different, but others here have been in similar situations. They found out the hard way that it doesnt work to try to remain friends and continue contact with the OP, whether it is for the BS's sake, the WS's sake, or the OP's sake, and no matter how much they feel like family. People who are your friends and have your best interest at heart do not do what she has done. If she still gets to be your friend, your H's friend, and she still works for you, not ot mention her H has no clue his wife has betrayed him, then there are no consequences for her actions are there? Nothing "bad" happened to her, only to you. What is to keep her from betrayaing you again, especially once the guilt wears off? People do not learn from theri mistakes unless they suffer the natural consequences of their actions. And I must say I have not seen one case personally where continued contact has worked. There are some here who the OP was a family member...and they have had to cut ties as much as possible whith that family member in order to save their marriage.

I also know you feel sorry for the OW. If she wanted to talk to someone about her husband and marriage why didnt she come to you or another female friend instead of your H? When someone of the opposite sex starts confiding in someone elses spouse about marital issues, it is a recipe for an A. If she is not happy with her H and marriage she is the only one who can do anything about it. I also feel her H has a right to know. You wanted to know, right, otherwise you would not have tried to find proof. It was YOUR marriage and you had the right to know what was happening in it, right? Should OW's H not have the same right? Exposing the A gets rid of the secrecy, which is part of the allure and excitement of the A. Remember, SHE did this to her marriage, not you. She crossed the line, as did your H. It is not fair to her H that the 3 of you are keeping this secret. I know you feel her marriage will end if the truth comes out...but SHE was willing to take that risk when SHE crossed the line...a possible consequence of HER actions. This is on her shoulders, not yours. Do not carry HER burden...that is her responsibility and it will only weigh you down. Keeping secrets is hard work and requires you to lie, even if only by ommision.

I know all of this is not easy on you and it is a lot to digest. Maybe you are not ready to see all of this yet, and that's OK. But like Ami said, we are just concerned about you...((((((((((((((hugs)))))))))))))

~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

Christine,

I have to agree with CAL. The OW's H should be told of this. It is unfair to him and will be more devastating to her H and their marriage if he finds out later rather than sooner. I would suggest that you tell her that she has a certain amount of time to tell him, and after that, you will. I know that's hard for you, but it is the right thing to do.

Lynda

Christine,

First, welcome. Sorry you had to come here.. but as I hope you are already finding out, this is a great place to be for those trying to recover from a partner's A.

At this time I do not really have anything to add to what the wise folks here have already said.

But first I wanted to call your attention to Peggy Vaughan's "Dearpeggy" web site in case you haven't already found it.

Each week she features a question.. this week's seems appropriate for you: "How Could He Have an Affair If He Loved Me?"

http://www.dearpeggy.com/question.html

My only other comment, based on both personal experience and having been around here a long,long time and having read much here and elsewhere... I personally believe that there is virtually zero chance for a full reconciliation/rebuilding of a marriage as long as there is any contact with the OP for any reason. No matter how sympathetic one might feel for the OP, regardless of any extenuating circumstances, maintaining any contact just doesn't work. And yes, people have believed it possible. But I always remember seeing some who did (allowed WS to maintain contact even if only work related) breathe a sigh of relief and take their marriage to a better place once contact was broken because the OP left the company where they had worked with the WS. Were the BS and WS able to get along and work on improving their marriage while contact was maintained? Yes. But it was very clear that there was never COMPLETE and fully satisfying reconciliation/re