I have a difficult time understanding how my H could do what he did too.

My understanding of compartmentalizing is that to some degree its a survival technique. So under stress it is something that we are simply wired to do and it comes somewhat naturally to us. I think that it is different than the compulsive liar, so that even people that we would least suspect of being capable of such bold face lies become capable and rather adept at living two lives. (A day after being accused of cheating, my H looked me straight in the eyes and said he wanted to work on our relationship, not an hour later he was trying to leave a day earlier on his "business trip", nice way to work on it bozo!) They are charged by adrenaline which gives them some extra resources to continuously compartmentalize. I visualize it as living in bubbles. They are in one bubble (their marriage) and then the next (the fantasy, the A). They behave differently in each bubble. There is very little to no overlap between the bubbles.

You might think of a time when something was happening (the A, an illness in the family,) and it wasn't the right time for the kids to know yet so you played two roles. Sometimes I have to do this at work where a change is coming up but it has to be rolled out to the group and sometimes it takes time to set up those roll out meetings. And during that time, I don't see myself as a bad person for stretching the truth, avoiding the truth, maybe even lying if its absolutely necessary because I am protecting someone (ok, so its not protecting myself and its for the greater good and people will understand it and why I did it, and the intent is to reveal at some point, unlike an affair...but work with me here). The more intense the situation the more likely a person will switch from just playing a part or acting to compartmentalizing.

I'm not saying that it is out of their control, that they aren't making choices, that they can't at any moment say "this is wrong and I need to stop". I am saying that as human beings we have some built in wiring that simply turns itself on when we get into or put ourselves into stressful situations. It's our fight or flight systems. And, that allows people to tap into energy and abilities they wouldn't normally be able to draw upon.

When I can analyze the situation from the psychological point of view and depersonalize it to some degree I can at least begin to accept that there is some objective logic behind it all. I'm still having difficulty however accepting it from an emotional point of view. I'm not sure if I ever will. But, I don't obsess over the details, I have nullified some of the triggers, I have progressed in many areas, so I suppose I will progress to acceptance some day.

When the bubble bursts due to discovery, there is more adrenaline to assist with "the cover up". Now they are incredibly vulnerable as these behaviors they would never have in the marriage bubble are being revealed. They weren't ever supposed to be revealed. The idea of the WS evaluating the risk, that they are risking their marriage is that they did evaluate it and there was no risk because their evaluation was that they would never be found out! Because there is no risk of being found out, they then can justify that they are not bad people and they are in no way hurting their relationship or their marriage.

In the end, we BS look at the person that is in the marriage bubble with us and the behaviors, decisions, and choices of A do not logically add up with the person that is living in the bubble with us. That they even decided to step into another bubble is beyond our ability to conceive. But, they did.

And now we must decide if we believe that they want to live in the bubble with us. I am reading a Anthony Robbins right now and one of the things he says is that "We are not our behaviors". This gave me pause as it validated what I believe about people and why I believe in my H. I believe that just as we are hardwired to compartmentalize and that just seems like such a weird and complex thing to have built in our systems, that there are very beautiful abilities as human beings and one is that we can chose to change our behaviors in a moment. In any moment at any time.

I believe that my H has the power to make that decision. I believe he has the power, the want, the will, the values to stay in the bubble. I believe he has made the choice to stay in the bubble. And, I believe that is a choice that we wake up and make every day of our lives. And, events can happen that rock our world. It is not always easy to live within our value systems, we do question them from time to time.

So he is left with the question that next time conditions change and make him question his value system will he stick with his value system, will he believe in himself and his value system? What is he doing to strenthen his belief in his value system each and every day? How is he building up his personal strength and character so he can maintain his value system next time his world is rocked?

And I am left the question of what are my values? And, if I hold within my values compassion, forgiveness, and courage am I going to let his behavior and his A rock my world and make me question those values or am I going to hold strong through the turmoil to my value system? Is it about whether or not he deserves the compassion? Or is it about whether or not I am actually strong enough to live by my values when they are actually put to the test? I think it is the latter. And, that is why I am still here.

I know for sure that he didn't do this thing and say "she's compassionate, she'll forgive me". If he thought that, he would have just told me, knowing I'd forgive him. He did not take advantage of my value system to get what he wanted. If he does it a second time - then I will know he is taking advantage of me. And that is simply not acceptable. In that situation, I would be shifting from compassionate to enabling. Enabling is not a practice I accept within my value system.

Even if he is, in reality, taking advantage of me now it doesn't matter. Because it is what I believe and how I live my life. It's MY LIFE! MINE! If he is too stupid to know how lucky he is that he has a wonderful opportunity to change his life and become the powerful, wonderful, good human being he can be, that he is, that is HIS PROBLEM! It only becomes my problem when I accept it as my responsibility to get him down his own path.

Even with this horrid behavior, this man is the single most important person (other than myself) in accompanying me on my chosen path in life. I could not be where I am today without him. I can accept his mistakes. But, he must chose to live above reproach, he must practice, train, and strengthen himself to live by his values as they relate to our relationship. I will not accept him or anyone taking advantage of me.

Wow - Ami and Blue - Your words are so full of understanding - It is a priveledge to be part of this conversation.

I also like Ami had a thought or two about your excellent post Blue.  Here it is:

I feel that the statement "we are not our behaviours" and "yes we are" ie yours and Ami's are both right.  It all depends on the perspective.  I see deep down in all of us a place which we all share in which we are all fundamentally pure at heart.  But, if you look at people they seem to be conditioned to act in certain ways.  And one of the most obvious ways we can see who people are is how they relate to others.  Therefore, as Ami says, bad behaviour in relationships reflects how that person has become.  I also appreciate the encouraging note you strike when you speak of the wonderful potential for each of us to choose to act differently to our conditioning. 

In my case I still struggle to see how my wife can overcome her own conditioning - It seems to me this is not easy.  My problem is not now whether she will betray me again but whether she can be the person to give me what I see I need - And what I need is someone I can trust to love me deeply for who I am and in such a way as betrayal is not very likely.  In other words I am pretty sure she would not cheat on me now but I simply don't feel she can love me and give me what I need.  This phase of healing for me seems now to be about facing the underlying relationship which emerges from the delusion cloud following the explosion of betrayal.

I really appreciate your posts

may you be safe and well, contented and happy

Though I appreciate being given name credit for this interesting post, its actually Hope/forgandforg that is the author here, so just wanted to set the record straight.

Like Ami, the quote "we are not our behaviors" isn't a concept that I agree with. I actually feel like people very much ARE the sum of their behaviors, mistakes, successes, joys and sorrows. It doesn't mean that going forward we can't forge past what has been detrimental or unsuccessful. But behavior occurs because of decisions we make about how to conduct ourselves, and our thought processes help define us. And IMO it feels like a compartmentalization of sorts to view A behavior or any bad behavior separate from the person.

My H during the course of the A was a liar, a cheat and a thief and he was addicted to those behaviors. During that time, these behaviors defined him as a pretty scummy guy, though he was able to give an Academy Award winning performance of another side of himself. But I can't say he was truly a good dad or husband when he wasn't physically with OW just because he was giving us his time at that moment. He wasn't a good person that had occasional bad behavior. He was defining himself through bad behavior and choices as someone who'd found a way to be a liar, a cheat and a thief without anyone but him (and OW) being aware of that existence.

When I discovered the A, my H explained it was very much like kicking down the walls of the compartmentalization box he'd built. It was like floodgates being opened and like different liquids getting mixed, the scuzzy elements of the A could not be justified, protected or set apart anymore from the other positive parts of his life. He had to make a decision about who he really wanted to be on a going-forward basis.

In effect, isn't compartmentalization merely the means where behavior we're not proud of is excused and rationalized internally? We all do this I'm sure to excuse the bad choices we make along the way that cut against the grain of bigger issues of honesty and integrity. When we make a bad decision, we still have to live in our own skin, so we find a way to justify how we veered away from our deep seated morals and values. Its harder to understand with a situation like an A because it isn't a momentary lapse where we're protecting ourselves or someone else's feelings. Its selfish behavior that is prolonged and is a way of conducting life.

I feel like I'm not doing a great job of explaining myself here, so will pass the thread back on to others perhaps better equipped.

In the meantime, I am glad that my H's compartmental walls are down and that his current behaviors are redefining who he is...as a father...as a husband...and as a human being.

Well wishes to all. Blue



"We cannot wait for the storm to pass; we must learn to walk in the rain."

Hope
I loved the post...awsome...There was a popular old saying when I was growing up.....
"Pressure builds character"
The other day, I read a post on another forum, the author was talking about this old saying, and created a revision to it...revised saying goes like this...

Pressure does not build character, it reveals it...

Hopes post reminded me of this ....
Thanks
Lisa

In a bit of a rush (going to H's AA meeting) but need to agree about the behavior issue.
(Hope - so much of what you wrote was brilliant, inspiring and shows great insight into the mind of the WS).

But, I believe that behavior is what matters. We all have thoughts that we are not proud of, or that may be inappropriate (at least I do) but it is the behavior that gets people into trouble.There needs to be a clear boundary between thought and behavior and I believe that is true for healthy people. I expect that, over time, my H will find other women attractive as I find other men attractive but he doesn't necessarily need to tell me and he now will not act on it.

I am learning that we don't have to express every single thought that occurs to us (though some here would disagree) which does not at all mean that we shouldn't openly communicate about issues that are important to us or are fundamental to our lives and happiness. If we all expressed every single thought without censoring or control I doubt that there would be many marriages or friendships. There have been many posts on the privacy issue and I am on the controversial side of believing in the right to privacy as a principle, though hard for me to accept H's right in real life. The truth is that we cannot live in someone else's mind as much as I would like to.

So, for me, it's the behavior that counts. Is H behaving in honest, honorable ways? Is his behavior loving? Is he sharing his life with me? Is he accountable and reliable? I am still far from trusting him but moving in the right direction because his behavior is helping me to believe in him again.

I feel that way too. I can't read H's mind...If H not only said he was sorry, but also BEHAVED like he was sorry for lieing and cheating, if he did what it took to make me trust him again, we would definitely be in a real R..I don't feel like it is real R or any R yet, because H 's ACTIONS aren't showing me that he cares as much about my feelings as he does his own.....He isn't doing what it takes to " strenghen himself" "to live above reproach"
( thanks again Hope) He seems to be a person that plays the victim role, and feels entitled to lie and cheat instead of moving out of his comfort zone, and working on himself and his character...
I am working on myself, but I need help I think, to strenghen myself so that H, or other people won't want to knowingly take advantage of me..
Lisa

To add a couple of thoughts:

- If bad deeds make someone bad then how can we become good - I do not see bad deeds defining someone for all time - I think that is the message about bad deeds not making the person all bad.  I know it might seem to be playing with words but I guess we would agree with the idea that bad deeds do not mean that someone is always bad.

- I feel that compartmentalisation is a sign of an unhappy person - To my idea being whole-some means being aware of and justifying all parts of what I seem to be - including all my behaviours - together in one.  Being whole and complete is healthy in my view.  Compartmentalised people must, in my mind, be almost at war within themselves - How can there be any rest and peace of mind like that?

may you be safe adn well, contented and happy

Ooops, My bad. Sorry for the mix up Hope.

Thank you for pointing out my mistake Blue.

I agree, bad behaviors don't make a person bad, sometimes the person is just lost, confused, misguided..
I admire people that take the bad behavior of their past, find out why it happened, and try to turn themselves around to make sure the same mistake doesn't happen again..I agree with you Jerry. I'm also thinking that unhappier people might comparmentalize more, and justify their mistakes or bad deeds, instead of working on themselves, to make sure the bad behavior won't happen again.
Lisa

Thanks for mixing me up with Blue, I'm honored that you could confuse me with her!

Ok, so it's a 500 page book and I'm 70 pages into it so yes a bit out of context and I'll let you all read the book if you want the full explanation. I'm sorry I couldn't summarize it well and I appreciate everyone's points of clarification.

I totally agree that bad behavior doesn't make a someone a bad person. As we have learned, there are all kinds of reasons for behaving badly and I am actually developing a bit of compassion for the sadness and sickness that led my H and his OW to behave so badly.

My H's current "good" behavior is the result of a lot of soul searching and accountability for his actions. He isn't perfect and our R isn't perfect or "by the book" in all regards. But we have made lots of progress and that is because this man's inherent goodness has come to life and is finally in synch with his behavior.

Well, I'm kind of mulling this all over. I think bad behavior does make someone a bad person IF they (a) are aware of what they're doing and (b) choose to do nothing to change the behavior despite how it damages themselves or other people.

Certainly, we all are most likely guilty of making bad decisions and inappropriate behaviors at some point in our lives. Am I still the thief that stole the piece of candy from a grocery store when I was 4 years old? No. That bad behavior earned me a lesson that I grew and matured from.

I do believe we all have the ability to "fall" and rise again.

Like I said, I'm going to mull this over. I realize I can be pretty hard edged about this topic. I'm still here in this M with my H not because I forgive him for what he did, but because he changed his behaviors. We both see what he did during the A as unforgiveable, but we're both attempting to focus currently on who H is now and what he is doing (the behaviors) to be the man he truly aspires to be. Its what has worked for us. Pondering deeply, BlueIris

"We cannot wait for the storm to pass; we must learn to walk in the rain."

I think that my H was a bad person when he was living in that bubble of the affair. He did bad things, that made him bad, in that moment and in that bubble. He was bad to me. He broke his committment of marriage. He lied. He hid things. He betrayed me.

And, in that moment of discovery, the bursting of that bubble he made a decision to live in the bubble that had me, his dreams, and his good behavior in it. He decided to be the good person. To live by good values.

That is the inspiration! That in a moment, any moment the decision can be made.

Of course, it was one of those same moments that had him hit "send" and the first e-mail went out. The decision to explore being bad was made.

I think the question is, is today he good or bad?

Maybe it is better said that We are not our Past Behaviors - or we don't have to be if we chose not to be and we live our lives beyond reproach from the moment of the decision forward.

Does my H have the character to do that? Under pressure and stress he did something "out of character". Or was his character precisely defined by the decisions he made when it really counted? Did he learn something from that challenging moment? Will it make a difference if I believe in him? Or does he just need to believe in himself? Heck, I can't even decide not to drink caffiene or pass on that candy bar - how can I expect him to never do that again?

All I can do is believe or not believe. That's all I have the power to do.

<<Does my H have the character to do that? Under pressure and stress he did something "out of character". Or was his character precisely defined by the decisions he made when it really counted? Did he learn something from that challenging moment>>

Redemption...the true test of a person's character is what they do in wake of the devistation they have caused, since we cannot undue what has already been done. Does the person who has harmed us acknowledge that they have done something to harm us and accept responsibility for what they have done? Have they done the deep down soul searching and made the changes necessary to ensure they will not repeat thier harmful behavior? Are appropriate boundaries firmly in placetto guard agaisnt a reoccurance? Only you know the asnwers to these question. If you are not sure, this is where actions speak louder than words. In the end that is all we truly have to go by.


<<Will it make a difference if I believe in him?>>

Beleiving in him or not will not change his behavior, but you can be supportive and encouraging. Only he has the power to actually change though. Remember, we believed this person was not capable of betraying us, yet our belief in them did little to stop them from doing so.

<<Or does he just need to believe in himself?>>

I feel a person must first believe in themselves, since they are the only one who can do anything to change themselves. Many times a person who has low self esteem does not believe in themselves and looks to others to build them up, which is why many end up in the position of having an A in the first place.

I told my WH that I believed he could stop smoking the pot if he wanted too, that it wasnt that I didnt believe in him, he didnt believe in himself and his ability to change. He had to have the will and the motivation to change. It has to come from within.

<<Heck, I can't even decide not to drink caffiene or pass on that candy bar - how can I expect him to never do that again?>>

If the Dr. told you the next time you ate a candy bar you were going to lose something very precious to you, like lets says your sight, would you still eat the candy bar or do you think you would be do your best to resist? One moment of pleasure for a lifetime of pain...is it worth it? Not worth it to me! If he values your marriage and he has made the necessary changes in his behavior I believe he will be able to refrain.


<<All I can do is believe or not believe. That's all I have the power to do.>>

If he has done everything to rebuild the trust and enough healing has taken place, then yes, you can decide or not to take that leap of faith and believe. The choice is yours but you dont have to decide right now if you are not ready yet...there is nothing wrong with deciding you are not ready...it is not always black and white...there are other options in between.

The saying "seeing is believing" comes to mind for me. But really, no one has all of the answers but how I wish someone did <sigh>


~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

It is a strange thing isn't it how we want to allocate "good" and "bad" labels to things.  And when I see the posts of Ami I am sometimes reminded of just how much we hang on to these judgements.  In the case of Ami's comments this time I, once again, feel as if she is holding on to her personal framework even though it seems to me to be hard steel when I know her as such a gentle caring and loving person.  My feeling is that I want to stop her torturing herself and be a bit more gentle on us humans - I feel we are all weak and make mistakes - I am not denying that some things we do are harmful - That would be foolish - But I do feel that the greater the understanding we can bring to others, and to ourselves, the more opportunities there are for happiness.  .... Now, I really must try and practice what I preach eh!

may you be safe and well, contented and happy

I have beem thinking about this thread and have come to agree with Jerry. I am a person who likes to think in black and white - so much easier - but I am learning that is not the way of the world. One of the issues I am dealing with in IC is recognizing how complicated everything is and that my insistence on lack of ambiguity is simplistic and, in many ways childish.

People are just far more complex than I want to believe. Like, how could H love me and do what he did? How could he be loving towards me while stabbing me in the back? How could he do nice things with our family while leading a double life? I don't think people can be reduced to good or bad.

But, most behavior can. Adultery is bad - there is no good to be found there. Being remorseful, showing accountability and empathy is good.

That is about all I can be sure about.