I guess i must be stupid as that is what i am feeling and even my WS is acting as tho "What's the big deal?" and "How does this change anything?"
16 months ago he confessed to 5 affairs during our 33 years of marriage. The first affair occured within months of our wedding and he was involved with his 5th woman when he finally confessed. He did not confess on his own. For those unfamiliar with the Christian way of life, they will not understand this next sentence. But what happened with my husband is that one day the Lord spoke to him and told him he had to confess all of his affairs to me.
From that moment on, i began to read as much as i could about adultery - why it occurs, why men cheat, what are they thinking, what are they wanting, etc etc etc anything to try to make sense out of this horrible horrible nightmare/prison i am now in. Husband and i also sought counsel with pastors, counselors, laypeople who had experienced the same thing. What i learned from them - and from the books, articles i read was that the affairs were not about the women, not even the wife. Much of what i was told and read was that it was all about the sex. And my husband concured with that. For 16 months he told me that these women meant nothing to him, that they were of no consequence to him, they simply provided what he was looking for - they were available and willing.
However, on Thursday, during my husband's counseling session he finally owned up to the truth. And the truth is - or was - that these women did mean something to him. It was more than just sex and that they were willing and available. He finally admitted that he was attracted to them, he was infatuated with them, he did desire them, in other words he was "in like" with them. He won't claim that he was in love with them, but it was definitely an infatuation. He did not have platonic thoughts towards them, he had romantic feelings for them.
But it gets worse. The last 2 women i knew about. He flaunted them in my face. The 4th gal was here for a swimming party. He spent the entire day with her - right under my nose. When the rest of the people left, she and 2 other men remained until midnight. I asked her to leave. She told my husband, but he told her to stay. At midnight, he announced he was driving her home. I said no. Both he and she got in her car anyway and began to drive off. I had to stop the car. Naturally he was furious with me. But his affair with her continued.
With the final gal, he introduced me to her. She worked for the same company he worked for - but also went to our church. So at church one Sunday, he introduced me to her. For the next 2-3 years, i watched as he met up with her every Sunday and every Wednesday. Ours is a mega church - 3000 in attendance, yet every Sunday, every Wednesday, their paths just "accidently" crossed. When she announced to him that she was getting a divorce - I told him to stay away from her. He didn't. He continued to meet up with her, but made sure i didn't find out.
In other words, despite him, the books, our pastor and many of our Christian friends - his affairs weren't about the sex -he was involved with these women because he was "in-like" with them - he had romantic feelings for them. And despite my knowing to some extent what was going on with the last 2 - he would not give them up. Not for me, not for our marriage, not for our children. Those women were more important to him, than i was. That's why it feels as tho i am going thru D-Day all over again.
Maybe i am being melodramatic here - a drama queen. But for all this time, i held out hope that it wasn't anything specific about those women. That is was just that they were available and willing - that it could have been anyone. But now, that hope is shattered and i am faced with the knowledge that my husband pursued these women because he liked them, he wanted them, he desired them and he had romantic feelings for them. He even agreed that when i learned about these women and asked him to stop - that he wouldn't stop because he wanted those women more than he wanted me and he wasn't going to give them up.
Now, is he completely remorseful? Yes. Does he want to stay in this marriage? Yes. Does he hate himself for what he did? Yes. Would he like to go back in time and undo all of this? Yes. But all of that can't change or mend my heart, my soul which has been ripped out of my chest and blown to smithereens. I can't even find all the pieces in order to begin putting myself back together.
Sorry, i just felt that i needed to type, in the hopes that it would release something from me and i could feel better.
I am glad you posted, Naomi. There is no pain that comes close to the pain of betrayal. All who post here are mindful of that. Having an OP flaunted in your face is also something that has happened to some of us here, myself included (all 4 of 'em, in my case). It rubs salt into a gaping wound.
Some WS's are in a hurry to have the betrayed party just get over it: "I admitted my mistake & I told you I'm really really really sorry, so let's move on now." All the while, the utterly shocked and shamed BS is left trying to piece back together their fragmented sense of reality, trust, and self esteem.
But betrayal is rarely, if ever, a "mistake", a "missed take", implying some sort of accident or minor error. Often, as it probably was in your H's situation (considering the number of OP's and span of time), a series of carefully calculated & preplanned deceptions, which you had nothing to do with. They were all about him and the selfish greed for sex/affirmation/ego food outside your marriage. Some BS's find the lies every bit as hurtful (or even more so) as the illicit sex and emotional side of the affairs.
Please take the time you need to heal and do not let anything or anyone hurry you along. If his remorse is genuine, this will become apparent over time. Some BS's understandably try to convince themselves that the WS is reformed, only to learn to their chagrin that the lies and/or cheating continued even after what appeared to be "true confessions". Give it time and patience with yourself.
BB
I am so sorry you are hurting so much. I am glad you shared with us because we can tell you that your feelings are completely normal.
My H only had one A (one too many of course!); however, I first found out around Valentine's Day 1999 when I found a returned email he had sent to her. He had signed it "Love, WS." I never before that moment understand exactly what people meant when they said their heart fell into their feet.
I went to see the world's worst IC whose response to the A was to tell me "you don't want a divorce, and your H says he won't have anything more to do with OW, so everything is OK."
HA! As if . . .
My H merely took his contacts with OW to work where I had no access to his phone or computer. His A continued for over another four years before it ended. I found out 1 1/2 years after it was over.
Our H's behavior is the perfect illustration for the saying "What you feed, grows." Our H feed their A, not their marriages. As a result, their infatuation grew in direct proportion to how badly they treated us. They showed their best side to OW and their worst side to us. They treated us shabbily because everytime they looked at us, their guilt welled up, and to make that guilt recede, they would find some excuse to be angry at us, to justify their A.
Of course, the reality is that if they had left us for OW, they would have soon found the bubble bursting and reality intruding into their fantasy world. Remember that most A do NOT end in marriage to the OP, and when marriage does happen, only a tiny percent last, and no one knows how successful the remaining marriages really are because no facts are readily available about them.
Even though our H felt infatuation, they were not infatuated with the REAL women, only with the IMAGE of the women, the image they had conjured up. You can better believe that the OW was doing the same. They weren't seeing the men we were seeing--grumpy, angry, blaming, unfair, impossible-to-live-with, selfish, etc.
Of course you are hurting. The A was 100% unfair to us and our marriages. We were put into a contest we didn't even know about. We were doomed from the beginning and had no chance to make a choice. Our H had a choice--a choice to deny their selfish impulses and work on their marriages instead, but they chose to be selfish, lie, cheat and convince themselves that what we didn't know about wouldn't hurt us.
Talk about delusional!!!
I can tell you that on Dday #2 my H still had at least kind feelings toward OW. Today he is appalled by his behavior and finds absolutely NOTHING appealing about OW. He wants NOTHING more to do with her. He is stunned that he risked his marriage to be with her and knows that the only thing they really had in common was an ability to cheat on their spouse.
I believe that even though our H may at one time felt infatuation with OW (and they did, sigh), they also at one time felt infatuation for us. But infatuation is only the first stage and NEVER lasts for anyone. Love and marriage take work, HARD work. Infatuation is easy.
If your H keeps working on himself, I think he will come to see that he was infatuated with the IMAGE of OW and the excitement of the A, but I daresay he will be appalled by his actions and stunned that he risked losing you for any other woman.
Oh, Naomi, so much pain! No wonder you're hurting again...but...maybe I have a thought that might help you think differently.
You had always held on to the thought that your H was not romantically linked with the OW. That it was just sex. Now that he's confessed the "truth," you're devastated. I put truth in quotations for a reason...let me explain.
You say: But for all this time, i held out hope that it wasn't anything specific about those women. That is was just that they were available and willing - that it could have been anyone. But now, that hope is shattered and i am faced with the knowledge that my husband pursued these women because he liked them, he wanted them, he desired them and he had romantic feelings for them.
Why - and this is important - did he "like" them? Was it their personality? I doubt it. Is it possible that he had romantic feelings for them because they TREATED him like he was a king? They made him feel GOOD about himself...his EGO was blown sky high! In otherwords, he thought he liked them because THEY liked him...
You see, had he REALLY liked them and that was the "truth" then why isn't he with them now?
Because he didn't. He liked HOW they made him FEEL. He liked what they did for his ego.He lost control over his own life...Ego is increased by things...often ownership...which is what they were. Nothing more, Naomi. Things that made him feel good. Like jewelry is to some people. Like having a huge CD collection, or a big house, or 2,000 pairs of shoes...whatever. It's their POSSESSIONS that they allow to make them "happy."
Okay. I haven't invented this EGO - ownership idea alone. I've been reading a book A NEW EARTH by Elkhart Tolle. Very interesting psych-type book. He goes into depth the relationship between our ego and possessions. We lose track of our selves and our "truth."
Sorry I missed you at chat. If my posting seems to ramble and is unable to be understood, perhaps I'll catch you in chat some other time.
Meanwhile, from one who's been married 36 years and was the BS, I understand your pain, and even its resurfacing. I hope you find a way to put it into perspective, especially since your H seems to be doing everything to repair the damage he's inflicted.
Once again to all of you, i say a huge "thank YOU"! It is so helpful to me to be able to come in here and post and know that people will respond with caring, intelligence and helpful advise.
Blue - you are so right in regards to some WS's wanting to simply admit the affairs and move on. So often my husband has said "I confessed the affairs, what more do you want?" If he isn't saying that, it's always his attitude. I have tried to explain that affairs are made up of many many parts - all of which cause pain that i have to deal with, reconcile and get over. Really for him, it is avoidance, denial.
Blue you said "But betrayal is rarely, if ever, a "mistake", a "missed take", implying some sort of accident or minor error. Often, as it probably was in your H's situation (considering the number of OP's and span of time), a series of carefully calculated & preplanned deceptions, which you had nothing to do with."
That is so true in my husband's case. Of course, in the beginning he wanted me to think that - and also that alcohol was what caused him to do what he did. But alcohol never played a part in his affairs. Never, he was clean and sober. He had plenty of time to think of what he was doing. He had plenty of chances to turn away and stop his behavior but he pushed on until he got what he wanted from these women. Yes, none of them were accidents - he made the moments, he created the moments.
Fairy- and by the way - i really do have a friend named Fairy! Her real name is Fairy. Anyhow, what you said about feeding the affairs, while not tending to the marriage, was so very true with all my husband's affairs. By the time he had been with his first 3 - he had come to me and told me he no longer enjoyed kissing me and so he wasn't going to do that anymore. Of course, i am sure that kissing me was not as thrilling and as exciting as the make-out sessions he planned with his girlfriends.
And trying to find fault with me to justify his affairs - absolutely. I could do nothing right. Nothing. Nothing was ever good enough. He critisized everything about me. Do you know that years ago he told me he didn't like the food i cooked? The problem was - he wouldn't try anything new - so what was i supposed to do? He trapped me in a corner that had no way out. I spent 33 years trying to please him only to find out that he was cheating on me and disregarding everything i did to try to make him happy and our marriage work.
The problem i have with possibly thinking that my husband was infatuated with the Image of the OW is that he had plenty of time to get to know these women. The first woman he spent 3 months of college working with her twice a week for hours on a college project - plenty of time to get to know the "real" her. 3 of the others, he made friends with them in the workplace. I understand looking at a person and thinking that they are attractive, even possibly desiring them because of their attractiveness. But once you get to know a person, you find out if their personality matches their physical assets - do you see what i mean? In other words, i can see a handsome man and think he is very attractive, but if i get to know him and he turns out to be arrogant, stupid, creepy, then no matter how he looks physically, i am going to be turned off by him. So, in my mind the same thing applies with my husband. He saw each of these women, thought they were attractive and then decided to get to know them. At one point in his life, he never knew these girls. He was finally introduced to them, but still they were strangers. But because he saw them with desire in his eyes, he decided to get to know them, in the hopes that they would reciprogate what he was feeling for them. As he got to know them more, instead of being turned off by their personalities, he just got turned on more. Which tells me that it wasn't about Image, it was about them personally.
JJ - i don't know why my husband didn't continue on with these women. He wants to say that it was because he loved me, wanted our marriage. And yet, after he returned to me, our marriage did not get better, he didn't suddenly become more romantic towards me or suddenly start treating me better because he realized it was me he wanted all along. No our marriage continued to be horrible. He continued to be unhappy with me, finding fault with me. He continued to try to remove himself from me and our marriage as much as possible. About 6 years ago i went to him and told him that since our youngest would soon be graduating from highschool that we needed to begin to cultivate activities that we both liked, that we could do together. He told me he wouldn't do that - he didn't want to - and that i needed to find things that i could do that did not involve him.
So why did he stay in this marriage? I believe it's because he painted this facade as the perfect man and to divorce would deface that facade he created. He very much admired himself thru the eyes of others and he did not want to diminish himself in anyway and a divorce would have done that. A divorce would have said "I am not as perfect as I want all of you to think I am?"
Thanks JJ, Fairy Friend and Blue Bayou - you have helped me tremendously.
After reading your last post, several thoughts occurred to me.
You wrote, " i held out hope that it wasn't anything specific about those women. That is was just that they were available and willing" Naomi, it is entirely possible that one HUGE reason why he liked those women was precisely BECAUSE they "were available and willing." He didn't have A with women who WEREN'T "available and willing." So I believe that was a HUGE part of their attraction. If he really loved any one of them, he wouldn't have cared what other people thought about him and would have left to be with that particular woman.
I disagree that he knew the real woman/women by working with them. Sweetie, NO ONE at my H's job knew he was coming home and acting like a monster to me. Why not? Because he didn't act like a monster at work. So there was absolutely no reason for anyone at work to think he was any other way than the way he behaved at work. Ditto for your H and the OW at work. He didn't treat them cruelly, and they didn't act grumpy, bad-tempered, etc. around him because they only had to act a certain way for a certain number of hours per week. It's much easier to keep up a pretense when it is only for a few hours at a time. But nobody could keep up a pretense for 24/7.
You wrote, "instead of being turned off by their personalities, he just got turned on more" I sincerely doubt that it was their personalities that turned him on. I believe it was the attention that they paid to him, the ego stroking he got AND the sex.
It is a human tendancy to get excited/interested in something new, whether it's a new romance, a new restaurant, a new car, a new outfit, a new house, etc. But after the newness wears off, either we come to appreciate the item more, or we lose interest because it was the newness that we really liked the best.
Naomi, you have the choice now. You can tell your H what you need him to do and either he does what you need, or you accept the status quo, or you move on with your life without him. You do not have to continue suffering. And you shouldn't. You have suffered more than enough already.
Huge encouraging fairy hugs and I LOVE your friend's name,
I have read this thread with interest - I do not read or write that often these days but have been returning lately.
Let me say that I find your understanding and enquiry echoes with mine - I have been married now for almost 32 years too. My wife had a long running affair over many years and I discovered it 2 and a half years ago. I know your feelings. I would like to comment on what I have worked out that may help you:
- It is not about sex only but there is a drive that comes from the animal energy in that
- It is all about the people having the affair and, in my spouse's case her problems.
- Whatever the problem, in my view, the wayward spouse is really not able to be in the marriage as you should ie with full commitment and a deeply heart felt understanding that does not allow the attraction towards others carry them away.
- Effectively someone who is not committed into the marriage is a potential cheater - And is not loving the marriead partner as they should either.
- Once in an affair the mind is capable of playing all sorts of tricks to convince the cheater that there are "reasons" ie from cooking to bad sex at home - In my view there is all kinds of nonsence that is conjured up and believed by the cheater here.
- Of course we all live in our own version of the world and we need to make sure that our realities are close to the real world (I know I had unreal understanding of who my wife was for instance I thought she was a rather innocent flower that needed protection).
- I have spent a good time away from my wife including not sleeping with her for about 2 years - And only now do I really have enough perspective to see her and me and the affair in some calm and clearer light. I have found the distance a good thing from which I can consider renewing a marriage relationship with her. It is now as if we are able to have the option to start again without the baggage of the past.
I am not sure if this helps exactly but I wanted to share.
Naomi, sorry for what you are going through. It is horrible to be made of one A, worse to find out about many and the very worst is to have them all flaunted in your face. It adds insult to injury when the person doing it claims to be a Christian.
Many of my ex-W's "partners" were Christians as well - one of them was a married minister!
There is some comfort found in thinking of the A as nothing about emotions - just physical. In my case, the more I dug the uglier it got. Yes my W was physical with these men, but there was also an attraction, an emotional connection, romance and love.
Accept the reality - whatever brutal truth it is all about. Then pary and decide what to do. It took a long time for me to hear God telling me to leave the marriage.
Sorry haven't had time to read all the responses..on a small family vacation
but just want to tell you that the emotions that occur are lust.. but not love .. relationship is based on lies not reality..
My H was able to let OW go because he was in lust ..but told me he really loved OW...MC told me to judge actions from d-day to what I see right now.. big change.. divorce feeling D-day.. keep action right now.. Knowing that he was attracted to OW and acted on that attraction hurts like hell but you can make it past that and you see him working on marriage with you.. all the new knowledge makes you feel insecure I kept asking for confirmation that I was the important one, I wanted the romance that OW received because H was so nasty to me most of the time.. just a hug when hurting or having triggers.. helped me ..
Now 5 yrs later he is still selfish but in different ways.. he, I think, has been faithful, still does nice things for me.. cares for me.. we still struggle because we are so different..but not enough to throw away 39 yrs yet.
((((hugs))))
Pat
"Time is precious, but truth is more precious than time."
This is an old British maxim (a Pound being British Sterling, a measure of money, not weight) that sends the message that cheating (or any illicit behaviour, among other things) becomes easier and easier to do or justify in one's own mind after the first time. The person is thinking, "Well, I did it once, so what the hell....too late to turn back now..."
The psychology behind this leads to serial cheating, as what happened in your situation, Naomi. It is the wise WS (for lack of a better description) who reflects upon what happened around the FIRST episode of cheating, stops cold and repents either to themselves, their God, and/or the offended party.
I think I could have forgiven a single repented incident without having a major lifelong PTSD response that I just can't seem to get a grip on. Perhaps your situation is similar. The sheer magnitude and depth of the betrayals is so overwhelming that it can actually change brain wiring/chemistry at a deep level, IMHO. Thus the obsessiveness with the A's, intrusive "thought movies", triggers, etc.
There are special techniques that a trained therapist can use to unravel this and help you deal with it. But first be sure your H isn't gaslighting you, or the setbacks could put you right back at square one.
BB
This message has been edited by BayouBlues on Jun 8, 2008 9:30 AM
I think as a BS we have to process in pieces. It is too big to do all at once. So you processed the initial reality by looking at it as "just sex". Now that you have moved farther into the process you are ready to look at the next level, that there were emotions involved.
What you need to remember is was still not about you or them. It was about him. His feelings, his needs, his wants.
He may have convinced himself he had true feelings for these women because that makes him less of a cad. But truely, I agree with the others, that this was about HIS feelings about HIM not his feelings about them or you.
He was selfishly looking for fullfillment in an area he shouldn't have been. If he had something missing he should've talked to you about it and worked within your marriage.
No matter what his excuse was: he was still wrong to go outside his marriage and he was still being selfish. He still need to be remorseful and help you and your marriage heal.
Your story is so painful, as are all of ours. Each of our stories is similar in so many ways.
I would like to share with you my story of healing. I confronted my husband of 30 years ago. He admited everything, including that there were 4 affairs starting after just 4 years of marraige. It started when he went on a business trip. That night he left a message on our answering machine, " no matter what happens I will always love you". The terror of that message and my inablity to reach him led me to believe the truth which he denied, and eventually without benefit of counseling I accepted as me being ridiculous. For years, the truth nagged at me and my H grew braver. Finally 8 years ago he told me everything including what happened that night.
My lessons are that the BEST way to heal is for you to read everything about healing starting with dearpeggy.com and her wonderful books, and write and talk constantly. We are here for you 24 /7 and we totally understand your trauma.
My H and I searched for a counselor that could help us. It was a difficult search but the one we found I call Dr. Wonderful. Together we learned that as Blue so wisely said this is a skill they develop over time. As everyone so lovingly and wisely said it has NOTHING to do with you. It is what was missing in him, that allowed him to go the extra step from looking at an attractive person, to plotting adultery. My H made it clear to me that despite the fact that ALL of these women slept with many married men, he was the aggressor.
Sex for men causes feelings of love no matter who they have sex with.. my H disliked ow #4, I knew her and thought she was old, ugly and had the personality of a sour lemon. Everyone who knows her thinks that. At one point my H told her he loved her, as well as all the other women. He told me he love me but was not in love with me. How could a marraige of a lifetime compare with the chemicals of new love... the excitemnt of the forbidden " the intoxication of an affair"
As my sister who has slept around told me and my H " poor El she has no idea of " the intoxication of an affair" I'll never forget those words...
So dear Naomi, I am glad we have no idea how they can fall into like with these women, or lust, or think they are in love... but I do know love is about the person not about the sex.
Your h THOUGHT he had feelings for these women cause of what they shared. You on the other hand as my H told me represent responsibility.
How did we heal? Counseling, time, hard work and NON STOP talking till I didn't have any more questions to ask and that took years.
Today I am married 38 years and more than delighted that I gave him that chance to EARN my love and respect. He has done everything right.
I thought I would walk out the door if he even looked at another woman, let alone all I have been through. Today, however, I am grateful to say I am with the man I love, and I know with all my heart he has always loved me. He had problems, and sex with OW was his solution. It had NOTHING to do with me. Unfortunately as a result I suffered PTSD as do many of us. I have spent the last 8 years learning how to build my life and family back and I have no regrets.
Naomi there are three types of healing. Yours, his, and the marraige. Work on you. If he chooses to earn your love and respect then make a list of what you need. That list will take time for you to figure out. You will need to read everything you can to learn what you need to heal. We will hold your hand just as those who came before us, did for us. Much love to you
