I have been really struggling to get past the inablility my dh has to give me an answer to why. We talked and talked and talked, he has been open, honest, remorseful. I don't think that he is hiding why from me - I think he really doesn't know. Is it possible that there is no answer to why did you do this? I've asked specifically, what did you think, what were the exact thoughts in your head when you made the decision to betray me? He gets as far as "she will be mad; I will hide it from her." and he can't think of a next thought.
I've tried to explain to him that I feel like I need him to give me that extra piece - that reason that he felt justified his actions; not only so that I can move on, but so that when the situation comes up again and he finds himself thinking "she will be mad; I will hide it from her," he can connect that with what he felt justified his actions, take that step back and say wait.
My dh is truly remorseful. I have no doubt that our marriage will survive. But right now for me, I need to know - is there a 'no reason' option? Do I push for him to come up with something, or do I let this part of it go, come to terms with that fact that this may be a question I never have answered and move forward? I'm stuck on this right now, and I want to be able to let it go and move on.
I'd appreciate thoughts/opinions. Thanks for listening.
I am interested in the answer to this question as well.
My H and I have been over and over what started the A. I have been so upset and cannot get past that he can not think of a WHY!
I just want to know a why so I can move on and (if this makes sense) feel better about this happening. I am worried that he was actually in love with OW. Not in love, but that he actually was attracted and started with her they way he would if he were single. This really bothers me.
Anyway, I hope someone can answer because this has been one of the biggest hurdles for me too.
I asked him why a lot and he pretty much couldnt come up with a reason that he could live with. So he said things like no reason is a good reason, every reason I come up with makes me feel so stupid for having done this, nothing seems big enough or important enough to have caused you this much pain, etc., etc.. So I changed my approach. Rather than asking him to say why, I asked him to think about what contributed to the decision. In my H's case, it seemed that he could answer that without actually declaring any one reason. The list was so long he started to feel like that seemed to be an answer he could live with. And, the thought that this combination of events was unlikely to happen again in the future made him feel safe to say it wouldn't happen again. In our case, there was a list of over 10 contributing factors. Some contributed more, some less.
This was something I insisted on him providing as a condition for continuing. And, I told him that it was my understanding that this was a really important part of his recovery, my recovery, and the recovery of our relationship. But, that what I had read in articles, heard from my therapist, and heard on the board was that it was absolutely necessary for him to do enough soul searching to understand why he did it or at least what might have contributed to his decision so that he could be aware of those same issues should they arise in the future.
I think that the real answer is almost always "you know, I deserve to feel good and it won't hurt anyone else because no one will know". Then the reality is that it was probably developed - its not going to hurt anyone to make a few phone calls, nothing will come of it....a few texts, nothing will come of it....its just a lunch meeting, nothing will come of it....it's just holding hands....just a kiss.....which then converts to, she hasn't found out about any of those things so she won't find out about anything more. And, I'll feel good..... So the whole thing progresses, possibly without ever having a conscious decision to betray, always feeling that hes working to protect you. I know its warped. But, its a way of taking responsibility for the behavior without ever acknowledging that its bad, until he gets caught and realize how terribly wrong he was about his assumption of hiding it forever.
Finally, my recent musing have been that one really important thing I began to realize is why it happened. Over and over its because the husband thinks that its something that is missing in the marriage, but later through the process realizes that it is something that he is missing in himself. But, the first step and the justifications for giving up and forgetting the commitment to marriage, the good man he wants to be, and looking for happiness outside the marriage is because something is missing in the marriage. So I want to know what he thought the reason was at the time. What did he tell himself was missing from the marriage. He never blamed me. Sometimes I wish he had. The closest he got was to say that he didnt feel that he could take care of me the way I needed to be taken care of, he couldnt meet my needs. And, to me that meant that I made him feel inadequate. When I think back on it, now that I know thats how he felt I realize what I did that contributed to him feeling that way. But, its because he chose to see caring, offers of help, reminders of how he met my needs every day as him somehow not being able to meet my needs. I have no control over that. In the end, it was still him, it was never me. But, were both better armed now to have the discussions in the future if were feeling bad because of our spouses behavior. I still think there is more he told himself and possibly the OW, though he denies that to this day. Because today it probably all seems stupid in the face of what weve gone through. So I think trying to find out that level of why is not as valuable as finding out the contributing factors. Just my humble opinion.
I think Hope is on to something in her post. The nature of the betrayal IS incremental, even if "it" happens fairly quickly (i.e. a one night stand). I believe that, in most cases, people prepare their hearts for betrayal long before they commit the act. Preparing their hearts gets them ready to want it when it happens. However, I don't think this preparation is something that is done with the ultimate purpose of betrayal, rather it is done with the purpose of allowing something that is desired. As hope said, it starts with a small tiny act of betrayal, that's internally defended as "nothing" but escalates and leads to the big "nothing" of adultery or abandonment.
For me, it helps to see this from the perspective of my own sins. Can I give sensible reasons for why I've done bad things, even the premeditated ones? From my own perpective the reasons always crumble when the are spoken aloud, even if they sounded great when they were only my thoughts. I think this is the nature of misdeeds... our thoughts that allow us to do them sound patheticly silly when spoken aloud. I doubt any wayward spouse can give a truly sensible "why" report to their betrayed spouse.
Which leads me to the question, why do we want to know why, and why is it so important? Of course we want to know why because we want our wayward spouse to be aware of how they allowed themselves to act in ways that have deeply hurt us, and them, and we want to have some confidence that they are capable of recognizing when they are headed on the same path. I'd go even further and say that we don't even want them in the vicinity of that path.
However, I think another reason we want to know why is that we're looking for them to give us a really good reason for the affair, something that we can say "Yea, I see why you did that", because if they can give us this reason then we will find "forgiveness" much easier. Then we can say something like "I know you had this awful and hurtful affair, but you couldn't help given the reason why that you were going through." I believe that we think that once we have this then we can feel a lot better about our spouse, we can live with ourselves for staying in this relationship, we can trust them and so on. I know this was the case for me. I wanted to know the "why" that would show me that my wife was a victim rather than a culprit, and I was looking for that from day one. It took me several years to understand that this was a source of my recovery agnst that would not go away, because everytime I had a "good" reason why, good reason would kick in to show me the facts that proved otherwise.
I think this could be where Hope is coming from when she talks to her husband about what was wrong in the marriage (in his mind) to allow him to do the affair. While this discussion is a good one, it should be remembered that (In my opinion) affairs do not occur because there is something wrong in marriages, they occur because there is something wrong with wayward spouses.
I had to give up this pursuit and forgive my wife even though she does not deserve it, she can not earn it, and she is not a victim. I had to forgive her because it was the only path to reconciling our marraige. My forgiveness has not been perfect and I still have issues with becoming too investing too much of my emotional identity in her. However, I have peace knowing that there is no need to pursue a justifying "why".
I believe very firmly that a BS absolutely needs a WS to discern why s/he had the A. I don't believe we can feel safe to stay in the marriage without knowing the reasons because if the WS doesn't figure how how s/he could have given him/herself permission to have an A, then it could happen again. No way do any BS want to go through the hell of an A ever again!
After Dday, my FWS went from saying he had the A because of me (WTF?!), to an entirely different viewpoint after years of IC, MC, soulsearching and discussions with me. He came to see how the stage had been set from his childhood and that, given the circumstances, he likely would have had an A REGARDLESS of the identity of his BS. A, after all, really are ALL about the WS, and not about the BS at all. Can we BS contribute to problems and misunderstandings in the marriage? ABSOLUTELY! Are we ever responsible for a WS having an A? NEVER!
My H realized that he had his A because of
1. Warped views about sex brought about by his early exposure to porn (very graphic, hard-core porn at that)
2. His sense of entitlement
3. His using sex as a way of coping with his anxiety (a horrible way of coping, but a way, nonetheless)
4. His lies to himself that I didn't love him anymore
5. His being overbenefitted in the marriage
6. His attitude that cheating isn't that ununsual or unacceptable
7. His belief that what I didn't know wouldn't hurt me
8. His loss of self-esteem (primarily because of work-related issues) and mistaken belief that he could "prove" his worth through sex
9. His willingness to believe the lies of a woman who was looking for an A partner because of HER low self-esteem, among other issues
As you can see, the reasons can be many, complex, and snake far back into the past, often predating the BS and the marriage.
Initially, I was stunned, shocked, and devastated that my H believed he was justified in having an A because of me. As I learned more about the nature of A, I categorically refused to accept those initials lies and pushed him to work on uncovering the true reasons. Since doing so, he has come to a much greater understanding of himself, exorcised some personal demons, put healthy boundaries in place, and proved to himself (most importantly!), me and our girls that he is a good man who made horrible choices. He has been and continues to earn my forgiveness as well as self-forgiveness.
I believe that uncovering the real reasons for an A is of tantamount importance for the healing of self, spouse and marriage.
No more lingering doubts or fears . . .
ff
A WS' being remorseful is extremely important, but remorse, like love, isn't enough to prevent another A from happening, IMO.
This message has been edited by fairyfriend on Mar 4, 2009 9:44 AM
You have gotten some excellent responces. The only thing I would like to add...Is all though deserning "WHY?" is a very important part of healing for both the WS and the BS, you have to understand that no reason in the world is going to be good enough. The why, as has been said, is a combinations of issues for the WS and circumstances that lead up to the A. First and foremost for any WS is the boundry issue. I think many people have weak boundaries who never find themselves in an affair for any number of reasons but that does not mean the potential is not there.
As FF's H and other's WS's have done, it is important that the WS understand himself as much as possible and that someway this information is passed on to the BS. For my H and I it was through counseling. We had a combination of IC and MC together. This allowed me to be a part of my husbands digging into what made him who he was and why, and visa versa.
Jane, I totally agree with Ami that no reason is ever good enough. But discovering the REAL reason helps with understanding and forgiveness. Working together to understand creates a bond that helps recover feelings of love and compassion. While of course I don't condone my H's A, at least I can understand how he could have done what he did, and I feel compassion for the pain he was in (even though much of it was of his own making).
IC and MC took a lot of time, effort, and money, but the results were worth all the struggle. The understanding and the skills my H and I gained have improved the quality of our lives in every area from self to marriage to work to parenting.
Ami is so correct in saying that WS had weak or nonexistent boundaries. That is probably one of the greatest differences between BS and WS--we may have had the opportunity to cheat, but because we had boundaries in place, we CHOSE to protect the marriage by keeping those boundaries up and active.
I read your post yesterday and have been thinking about it every since. I've come back and found that people have already given you some great replies.
I had trouble when I first came here and I kept seeing people say that the WS has the affair because there is something missing in him. I thought in my case there was no big underlying problem with my husband. My husband came up against a set of circumstances and he made a horrible selfish choice. Like Tom, I've made some really stupid choices in my life that hurt other people, maybe not to this extent, but it's hard for me to come up with why I stepped over a line and made the stupid choice at that time.
I think it's more important that I came out on the other side and understood the consequences of my actions and recognized that it was my actions that hurt other people and that in the end, I didn't get anything good from making that choice and I hurt myself, more than I hurt anyone else. Early in our recovery my husband and I had a conversation and he told me, "I'm not going to lie, I had fun and felt good when I was with her." That, of course, hurt me to the bone and made me angry. I told him how can you even still think that, let alone say it to me?!"
My husband told me that he meant "at the time" he had fun and felt good with her. I told him, "NO! At the time, you felt guilty, embarrassed, ashamed and you were in pain while you were with her! Can you really look back at that and say you were having fun and felt good WITH HER?" This is what I wanted him to understand - that it wasn't me that made him feel guilty, embarrassed, ashamed and in pain, it was her and what he was doing with her. He tried to transfer those feelings from himself and her to me, but I was never the source of those feelings.
The why just isn't important to me because the why isn't the key to the recovery of our marriage. What is important to me is that my husband sees that I'm not the source of all the bad feelings that came out of his stupid choice. As long as my husband can look back and have one fond memory of the OW, then our marriage hasn't recovered because he still doesn't understand that what he was doing with the OW and her willing participation in his adulterous affair were hurting him, far more than it could ever hurt me.
If my husband doesn't understand that completely, then I know he could make the same stupid choice again. All he has to do is use the "I'm just a selfish ******* and I'll have fun and this will make me feel good" excuse to justify another destructive choice.
Thank You for starting this post Jane. I don't have any advice to give but I am also looking for the same answers. My wife is also remorseful but cannot answer why. Your question and the responses have helped me realize I may never know why. It has only been four months since d-day and the roller coaster coaster of confusion is terrible. It's hard to believe how much better things are in four months. She is trying hard but sometimes I have gotten overwhelmed and said I was leaving. I know the answer would help immensely but it may never come. We may have to settle for remorse. I think my marriage will survive as well and wish you luck in yours.
It's my opinion that I've learned "why" my wife had her affair, because I think she learned it too. However, the reasons are all so pathetic.
For example, one reason she had her affair was that the OM told her things that made her feel good at the time. He didn't say anything that I didn't also say at the time, but his had more impact on her because I "had" to say nice things to him (and therefor mine were not as sincere and heartfelt). Of course, in the light of day this is silly because he had a selfish motivation to say nice things (to gain her affection) whereas my only motive was my desire to encourage her.
Any of her reasons why don't make any sense to the point where I can say "Oh yea, I see why you'd have an affair, given those circuimstances!", they just explain to both of us where her mind was at the time, we both see the stupidity of her thoughts, the convienient rationalizing that she did, and the critical points where a different choice (often something small) may have changed the outcome.
Examining my own experiences shows me how much any of us rationalize when we do selfish things. It showed me that I couldn't expect my wife's reasoning to make any more sense (and most likely even less).
I'm not sure that the why questions yield anything really useful except that for the BS there is a tremendous need to make some kind of sense out of what happened but the 'why' is also a retrospective rationalization of what happened. My husband's why was because he saw an opportunity and thought he had nothing to lose (!) - that's the surface why - beyond it was feeling deeply rejected, of which I was a part, but the rejection goes much farther. You can chase down all of the insight and explanations but that doesn't necessarily change behavior (i.e. it's not a garantee) - sometimes it keeps you stuck in self-pity and regret. Changing behaviour means letting go of the past wrong done to you at some point of readiness, choosing to take responsibility for your actions and acting differently.
Actually knowing about my Hs feelings of rejection helped me - it was actually critical to turning me towards him i.e. being willing to work on the M - I could so something about looking at what had I contributed to his struggle with rejection. MM
There is a lot a great insight here, and a lot more to think about. Tom's answer "Which leads me to the question, why do we want to know why, and why is it so important? Of course we want to know why because we want our wayward spouse to be aware of how they allowed themselves to act in ways that have deeply hurt us, and them, and we want to have some confidence that they are capable of recognizing when they are headed on the same path. I'd go even further and say that we don't even want them in the vicinity of that path." really hit home, especially "confidence that they are capable of recognizing..." That is why I need the answer to why did you do it - what were the conditions - what led up to this - and so on. If he can tell me those things, I feel that I will be that much further along in trusting that he will not follow the same path he took.
NOW, if I could just get him to realize that as well. He doesn't seem to understand that there needs to be a recognizing of the whys and hows to build that barrier against a repeat offence. He feels that it was a mistake. He accepts that it was wrong and has apologized. He will prove himself to me by...not doing it again. So I feel as if I'm on thin ice, waiting for it to crack. How can you change the behavior that causes that action, when you don't acknowledge what the behavior was to change it, LOL!
Thanks so much again, everyone, for your really insightfull answers. It helps so much to talk about this.
>He feels that it was a mistake.
I really hate that word applied to something like adultery. I think of a mistake as something that would have been avoided, but happened because of a lack of foresight. My wife used that term, and even when I still thought she could have been a victim of the OM, I still did not accept that description in light of the repeated occurances of her acts.
>He doesn't seem to understand that there needs to be a recognizing of the whys and hows to build that barrier against a repeat offence. He feels that it was a mistake. He accepts that it was wrong and has apologized. He will prove himself to me by...not doing it again.
When someone who has failed to honor their word is asked to be taken again "at their word", without the need real reconcilation efforts on their part, you see their lack of personal understanding of what they are asking, and you see why I put a distinction on these two events... forgiveness and reconcilation. Even if you forgive your husband, without his acts of repentance and restitution he is laying all the effort of reconcilation at your feet. Forgiveness is a decision by you and you alone, and it has nothing to do with his acts of remorse. Reconcilation is a joint effort requiring both parties to the heavy lifting of rebuilding a relationship that has been all but destroyed by the adultery.
>So I feel as if I'm on thin ice, waiting for it to crack. How can you change the behavior that causes that action, when you don't acknowledge what the behavior was to change it, LOL!
Absolutely. If a person never demonstrates that they understand the degree of damage they've caused to others, what assurance does anyone have that they will not allow it to occur again? Of course, on the betrayed side, we have to watch out for the negative attitudes that are easily aquired, where we alway look for the self-serving trick or scheme in the previously-wayward's actions.
How can you change the behavior that causes that action, when you don't acknowledge what the behavior was to change it, LOL!
If it is behavior that you simply can not live with then if you set boundaries he will need to make a choice about how he behaves. Denial or confronting his issues. And, he'll have to live with the consequences. Denial - he'll lose you or he'll repeat. Confronting, he'll keep you and have personal growth.
My H realized that he had his A because of almost the same exact reasons... but maybe not in this order
"1. Warped views about sex brought about by his early exposure to porn (very graphic, hard-core porn at that)
2. His sense of entitlement
3. His using sex as a way of coping with his anxiety (a horrible way of coping, but a way, nonetheless)
4. His lies to himself that I didn't love him anymore
5. His being overbenefitted in the marriage
6. His attitude that cheating isn't that ununsual or unacceptable
7. His belief that what I didn't know wouldn't hurt me
8. His loss of self-esteem (primarily because of work-related issues) and mistaken belief that he could "prove" his worth through sex
9. His willingness to believe the lies of a woman who was looking for an A partner because of HER low self-esteem, among other issues "
#7 was probably first
#8 is second with a proving his worth through sex and through 'rescuing' her from all her bad choices... being a white knight and saving her
but EVERYTHING else parallels our experience. His first sexual experience was at a young age and with a woman he was babysitting for...(reason 10,001 why not to have sex with your child's babysitter...)
I would also say that therapy or introspection is necessary. If he doesn't know "why" how can YOU be sure it won't happen again? What if he finds himself in the same situation. Just "knowing it is wrong now" isn't enough. He KNEW it was wrong then and justified it away.
I would add that in our situation, answering this question took YEARS.
Tom you said: For me, it helps to see this from the perspective of my own sins. Can I give sensible reasons for why I've done bad things, even the premeditated ones? From my own perpective the reasons always crumble when the are spoken aloud, even if they sounded great when they were only my thoughts. I think this is the nature of misdeeds... our thoughts that allow us to do them sound patheticly silly when spoken aloud. I doubt any wayward spouse can give a truly sensible "why" report to their betrayed spouse.
I love this! I so often have asked my H to just try to understand things from my perspective. When I tried putting myself in his shoes it was really hard. But, I could do it when I put myself in my own shoes. How did I feel, what was I thinking, how did I justify things when I betrayed someone else. Even if it was not in the same way. Like the time I went ice blocking in high school and almost got caught. I betrayed my parents trust. How did I feel? You might think that is trivial compared to an A but the building blocks are still the same. The intensity I'd say is obviously higher for the A, but the thought processes are still the same. So from his perspective, his feelings and emotions would be even more intense and powerful than what I felt by betraying my parents trust.
I translated what I wanted for my parents to what I could see that my H wanted for me:
1. I would want my spouse to never know what really happened and what I really did and felt because it would needlessly hurt because now those actions and memories mean nothing to me.
2. I would want my spouse to believe in me again, that I can and will live up to the person I told her I was and wanted to be.. the person that I am but abandoned in my fear and desperation.
3. I would want my spouse to understand that it was seperate from her. I didn't do it with the intention of hurting her so I don't want her to hurt now.
4. I wish she would stop thinking of it in ways that caused her pain because the ways she thinks about it are not the way I think about it or ever thought about it.
5. I don't understand why she puts herself through that trauma over and over and over. It's like watching someone you love smash their head against the wall and the only one that can stop them from doing it is them. If I could stop it I would, but all I can do is try to distract her so she'll stop doing it to herself.
So, from that I could get it - why he didn't want to tell the truth, how he really was trying to protect me, how it really did cause him pain when I was showing my deep hurt, and how helpless he must have felt in the face of my pain. I absolutely couldn't believe any of this at an emotional level initially, then after a while I could start to understand them logically but they still effected me emotionally, and putting myself in his shoes by putting on my own similar ones just sort of made it more like actually taking a bite of the apple pie and experiencing it rather than reading about it or having someone describe it to me.
p.s. And, don't say anything either, because I never did tell my parents about that ice blocking incident. Trust me I learned my lesson!
--See how bad it is! I still to this day would not tell the truth to protect my parents "fantasy" and belief that I could not be a trouble maker, like my sister was, because it would just hurt them too much to know what I did and was just smart enough to do it in a way I would never get caught. And, none of that stuff that I did really matters anyway, at this point, because I learned my lessons, grew from it, and I am a good person after all. Sometimes in life we just have to find our own way. I had heard them tell me it was a bad idea, I got it. I had seen the trouble and consequences my sister went through and got it. But, I guess I just had to go out and really experience it...or get as close as possible without getting thrown in jail, to really really get it. And, I am not condoning or saying that having an A is an acceptable or necessary way to learn a lesson or attain personal growth. Simply that I can understand that thought processes and response of my husband, that were opposite of what I needed at the time by seeing that I have those same exact responses when I have betrayed in the past.
I think that empathy is very, very important. We do have to put ourselves in our spouses shoes and realize that they hurt too. I have compassion for what my husband went through. I realized how hard it was to witness my pain, over and over again. I admire his courage for doing so. But to me, even though I know it isnt easy to be honest, continuing the lies is a decision to continue the hurt and, first and foremost, for the WS to protect themselves from having to see their spouses pain and really face the consequences of their acts. Protecting the BS is second to protecting themselves.
We all have to find our way. All of our paths to accepting a person, who betrayed us in the worst way, back into our hearts and lives will be different. I have chosen to see my husbands infidelity as a grievous crime he committed against his family. My pain, the he!! we went through, for more years then I would have liked, was the punishment and consequence he had to pay. Unfortunately, as in all crimes, the victims have to pay also.
Even though I can imagine what my husbands suffering has been due to his selfish choices, I cant really know. I cant compare my regrets and feelings of guilt for past wrong doings to the magnitude of what he must have had to deal with. I think to do so would be an insult to him. Just as he thinking he could come even close to knowing what it feels like to find yourself a Betrayed Spouse would be an insult to me.
I am 8 months and one week past D-day, and all I want is answers. I have asked for a written timeline and access to his cellphone records and have not received either yet, although I have to admit that I have let it slide for months. I asked for the first few months then decided that I would give him 6 months. I suppose I should start at the beginning. We are not married, have been "together" for just over 2 years (although the cheating happened during those two years making it - as far as I know - just over 8 months that we have actually been "together" and we have been living together for just over six of them.) I have seen a lot of the same reasons here that he has already given me - "I thought you'd never know," "it was an ego boost" etc. and I have honestly tried to forgive, but how can I forgive something I don't completely understand?!? The past few days have been horrible - I told him I couldn't do it anymore, I couldn't be with somone who couldn't give me what I need, and he told me he loves me more than he's ever loved anyone and didn't relize how important it was to me and will write out the timeline for me and get the cellphone account number so we can access the records online (work phone and OW has already given me cellphone records although I have my doubts about them being authentic). I know we are not married as you all seem to be, but I am older (43), have been through 2 marriages already, and honestly thought I was finally making a good choice. What do I do? Do I give him more time, knowing that I really haven't pushed the issue, or do I just walk away? I insisted on waiting a year before introducing our kids (teens - who now adore each other and consider each other siblings) and understand how much hurt would be caused by our parting. I want to believe and forgive, but I don't know how I can without understanding the "why?"!! Please help me.
I don't think marriage (or lack of it) has any bearing on the pain you experience as you believed that your relationship was exclusive. Even if his mindset is that the relationship was not perminant (or some other foggy thinking) and this allowed him to be in the other relationship, it's clear that you did not expect this.
As far as waiting for him to produce the things you've asked, my guess would be that he will come to believe that they aren't that important, or that he can put you off indefinately so long as the relationship seems to be "peaceful" without him doing it.
I believe you might need to press harder to let him know what you expect.
"As far as waiting for him to produce the things you've asked, my guess would be that he will come to believe that they aren't that important, or that he can put you off indefinately so long as the relationship seems to be "peaceful" without him doing it. "
How ironic - this came up just last night with me and H. We had made a decision to get rid of FaceBook - it played a part in the whole event. He watched me sit and get rid of mine, but then walked away. Knowing my H the way I do, I knew that he would put it off until it became a 'non-issue' and he would 'get to keep it'. When I asked him, he said he'd do it tomorrow. Well, tomorrow turns into the next day and the next and so on. I confronted him and said we agreed, you need to do it. Period. He was not happy - how could I not believe that he wouldn't? (?????) Well, where do I start!
He deactivated his account - VERY angrily. He really tried to put it back on ME - I didn't give him time to. I should have trusted he would. It's not that big of a deal. (His FB account still listed OW as a friend) Not that big of a deal? You see her everytime you log on. It's. A. Big. Deal. After a while I began to feel maybe I was wrong in asking something from him, but I realize that this is not on me. I told him 'Stop. You are mad at me; you have no right to be mad at me. This is a direct result of your actions. I refuse to take this on. This in on YOU."
So, do I think you should push for the records you want? I do. There is no reason he can't sit down and pull those records together. Like Tom said, he's waiting until it's not an issue. This is not on you - he screwed up. He pays for that screw up.
Your post just tugs at my heart strings. Like you, I'm older and I had two marriages behind me (both of my ex-husbands cheated on me) and I thought I had been so careful picking my husband. I knew him for over two years before we lived together and we lived together for a year and half before we got married.
On the night of my husband's bachelor party he came home drunk as a skunk and covered in lipstick. I stewed all night and when he woke up the next morning I told him that I wasn't going to go through with the marriage because I wanted a man that loved me enough to not cheat on me. He explained that his friends had held him down while a bargirl covered her lips in fresh lipstick and then kissed him all over his chest. He acted insulted that I would compare him to those other two losers and swore to me that he would never hurt me like that because he wasn't like them - famous last words.
A year after Dday, I've never gotten a complete detailed account from my husband, but I don't believe that the answer to why he did it is contained in the details of the affair. The details can't explain why he crossed the line that he so adamantly believed that he would never cross. Any problems we had in our marriage up to the day he started the affair, how drunk or sober he was, how much he was turned on by her, how much she came on to her, what they said to each other, what they did in bed etc, etc. - they are all just excuses for why he did it and continued to do it. I just don't believe there is a definitive "why he did it" to be found in the details. I don't think he knows why he did it. He just did it. I could take any of the details and use them as the excuse for why he did it, but if he wanted to do it again there would be a whole new list of details filled with all new excuses.
I know that trying to figure out why made me crazy. It's not worth the time and emotion spent because there is no why excuse that is going to change the past or make me feel any better about what happened. I begged for details and found more details only gave me more pain. As I said in a post above, it's important to me that my husband understands that he made excuses and rewrote history that tore me down unfairly and built her up in his mind. It's also important to me that my husband understands why he should never make up excuses to do this again. There is no excuse that is good enough to explain why he did this to us and there is no excuse good enough to put us through this again.
I told my husband that if he ever meets a woman and even thinks about having another affair with her, then he better give me the respect I deserve and come to me immediately before ANYTHING happens between them and explain his feelings to me and give me the chance to discuss with him whether our relationship is over. Maybe if I was younger, maybe if I hadn't been through 2 failed marriages, I'd be more forgiving, but I know my limits.
I respect my husband for trying to repair the damage that his devasting mistake has made, but I'll lose all respect for him if ever hurts me by making the same mistake again. I love my husband and I want to continue our lives together. I'll accept that I don't know which of the 101 excuses he's come up with is the real one and only reason why he did it, but I've taken all of my husband's future excuses away. I told him that if he chooses to have another affair while he is married to me that he better know that there are no ifs, ands or buts about it - the only reason why he would do that is that not only does he not love me any more, but he wants to embarrass, humiliate and torture me. That would be the end of my relationship with him, period.
***I'm editing this to add that I'm not saying that you shouldn't ask for and expect the details if you need to know them. If you really need to know them, you should push him before he can use the old "It's been so long ago I can't remember" excuse. I'm just saying that I don't think the details will give you the answer why and even if you felt that you discovered why he did it the first time, it's no guarantee that it won't happen again for a different why.
This message has been edited by Tamatha on Mar 10, 2009 2:35 PM
He typed up about a page and a half timeline of the A and emailed it to me before he left for work this morning. He seems to still be minimizing his responsibility and trying to distance himself from what he did, but this is how it ends:
"I was having my cake and eating it too. I had my girlfriend who lived too far away to catch me cheating and my secondary girlfriend during the week who would only come over late at night for sex with no foreplay, hard for any man to pass up.I shouldnt have led her on, I should never have touched her in the first place. I AM SORRY that I was so shallow and hurt you so badly. I think I have learned from this and would like you to give me a chance, I have been good since weve been living together, not that thats an excuse. I Love You."
I changed font color and added my questions and comments into what he sent me and sent it back with this added at the end:
"I can see that you are trying, but there is still sooooo much missing!You have not yet explained to me how you got from avoiding someone you found unattractive to inviting her into not only your life, but your bed as well!!!Until I understand the process of how that happened, the factors that came into play, and know that you understand it as well, I cannot trust that it wont happen again.If you dont know where the weak link was, theres no way you can shore it up for the future.
You also finally admitted that you were considering breaking up with me at some point, but you havent told me when or why or what your thought processes were and how they were related to her.You dont consider breaking up with someone for no reason.There are solid, tangible reasons, and I need to know what they were/are.Unless I know what is wrong and where Im coming up short, I cannot fix it, change it, or even try to meet you half way.
You made a choice that hurt both of us and our relationship tremendously.I do not yet trust that you wont cheat on me and betray me again.I have tried to just box it all up and put it away - Ive tried like hell to adopt your position that its in the past and doesnt matter, but I cant do it.It DOES matter!!!I cant even make love to you without the image of you ******* someone else popping into my head!Every day I hear phrases or see images that remind me and its like a dagger stabbing me in the heart again, and again, and again.Like I said, Ive tried to box it up and pretend it doesnt matter.Ive tried to pretend everything is ok and were happy, but thats not true.I am insecure, scared, and miserable - and I cant pretend Im not anymore.Im tired of swallowing my feelings and fears.Im tired of searching for answers that I will never find anywhere else because they can only come from you.
There is still too much missing information, too many missing pieces.I need the whole, complete truth, and I need it NOW.I cant go on like this any longer.I am hurting more than you will ever know, and if you cannot help to heal the hurt by giving me the answers and information I need, then, for my own good, I need to walk away.Not because I dont love you, but because I do and it hurts like hell to love someone who cant or wont give me what I need to feel loved and secure."
Am I asking for too much? Not enough? Am I a fool for even trying? I think I am in a delayed fog or something.
This message has been edited by Phoenix7208 on Mar 11, 2009 3:46 PM
At the risk of confusing you, I'd like to point out that after going through recovery and the extaction of the truth from my wife, I've come to the conclusion that the "weak link" is almost always the same... its the inborn selfishness of the wayward spouse and their greed for the ego boost that comes with having anyone telling them and showing them that they are something special.
When my wife finally understood this for herself, she had realized that it didn't matter very much who the OM was or what he did to "seduce" her. It didn't matter that her family history was different than other people. It didn't matter that she tried to get him to stop wanting an affair with her.
She realized that no blame shifting could discuise the fact that she wanted to commit adultery with the OM. She realized that nothing the OM did or said could excuse that she answered him when he wrote, she spoke to him when he called, she met him when he asked her out, and she opened the door when he knocked. She understood that her selfishness and desire for what the OM offered determined that she did those things, not anything that he did, or I did, or any other person did.
Your BF thinks that having a "girlfriend during the week who would only come over late at night for sex with no foreplay" is "hard for any man to pass up". While I agree that this could easily be a temptation to many people, it's not that hard to pass up. This is the kind of comment that indicates a certain amount of blame shifting.
However, the idea that he can give a full picture of what happened, that he can explain it so that you will understand it is not very realistic. He can't make you feel any trust of him, he can't make you feel love for him. All he can do is act with caring an integrity, with honesty and openness. Those feelings, your feelings, are a result of how you respond to him and whether able you are to protect your heart from bitterness.
I think the key thing to look for in your recovery is how this has changed him for the better, and look to see if those are fundemental changes in him. Be aware that the initial shock and trauma can result in some changes that are lifelong, but others that are short lived. Look at whether he's become more sensitive and more open open toward you. See if he assumes more personal responsiblility for his behavor and if he's become a more mature person.
Thank you all for your words - they really help me as I read over the thread. So much experience and understanding. My only additional feeling right now is:
- A sense of, what Tom and others have indicated, the essential selfishness of affairs. But a realisation that we are all selfish, including myself as BS in wanting that she had not done as she did, my life had not turned out this way etc..
- A recognition that a relationship/ my marriage is about worldly decisions, choices, boundaries etc. and that my deeper spiritual knowing and loving goes beyond that worldly way
The message was removed due to a violation of our site Policy, which prohibits posts that are "designed to solicit business or interviews from forum members". Because the same message has been repeated on a large number of threads and is unnecessarily intrusive, we have concluded that these messages are not intended to further the stated purposes of The Healing Heart.
This message has been edited by tomj76 on Jun 30, 2009 11:54 AM
