I am sure there is another thread somewhere that addresses this, but I am going to ask anyway. What are boundaries?
Are they rules for your relationship? Are they rules for yourself? Like and If/Than statement to help you deal with what might come up in an uncertain future?
I see it mentioned a lot and I guess I am having a hard time understanding it.
How do you set up boundaries without feeling like the dictator of the relationship? How do you enforce them? And what happens if you set a boundary and then you find you can not enforce it, are you sending a bad message to your spouse?

Louise,

This is something I wrote a while back. Hopefully it will help.

Ah the boundary Issue, Around and Around we go. The lies are truly the worst. This is a boundary I find I need to reestablish from time to time with Mr. Ami. My H has grown up in a family that justifies their actions by the actions of others. Or that justifies their actions by how hard of a day they have had or when things go wrong. Somehow in the make up of this family, personal responsibility can be chucked and lies become a reasonable course to protectones behind. They can also make themselves feel better by the very real belief they are protecting someone else too. But the reality is their motivation is first and foremost to self.

I and my H acknowledge that these personality traits are who my H is. To not be aware of them or think they have fled because of the A would be a recipe for ruin. We do however get lax, which will most undoubtedly result in a set back. We discuss it, come to terms with what happened and set up the boundaries once again.

Boundaries are tricky things. The hardest thing for me to comprehend about them was that only I could set my own boundaries and only he can set his. Where we get into so much trouble is when we try to impose our boundaries on someone else. It just doesnt work that way. The 2^nd hardest part about boundaries is enforcing them. If the 1^st part is applied and the boundary is yours, then, when the 2^nd part is applied that means the consequence is yours also. Enforcing boundaries is painful, that is why I always feel we have to work our way up to tougher and tougher consequences for oneself on a particular boundary.

In the beginning we have to start out slow, when enforcing our boundaries. The first consequence of a boundary being broken can be to discuss it with your spouse. Often this is all that needs to be done. When you discuss anything with your spouse it should always be from an I perspective, never accuse or say you. Stick with yourself. Unfortunately this can be a boundary your partner has not set for themselves, so you find yourself again and again in a need to enforce the boundary for yourself. Your enforcing should get tougher for you, and by enforcing the boundary you feel better about you in the end, even though it may have been very painful for you to do yourself. Instead of kicking your H out right now might you suggest he stay at the motel 8 in town for a night. The progression is up to the individual and what they think they can handle. But remember the boundaries are YOURS and YOURS Only. You are not the dictator to anyone but yourself.

"New Note. I found that my old relationship with my H became that of a parent (me) to a child (H), which was not fun for either one of us. Not to mention unhealthy. Often I would draw my line in the sand and then dutifully patrol that line making sure he didnt cross the boundary I had set up for him. The minute my back was turned, predictably, like that of a child to a parent, he would rebel and of couse cross that boundary. Wed have a fight, I redraw the line, and the cycle would continue. Creating boundaries for someone else never works, in the end you become an enabler, because you havent put the consequences for the boundary being broken on the right person.

This is a really hard concept to grasp for everyone, it took me a very long time, and even longer to be confortable with it. Take your time.

Ami

Ami gives a good answer, but I'd like to add a few things.

This is a boundary:

You visit a restaruant with a large group, you place your orders. After 10 minutes the appetizer and rolls arive at your table. Thirty minutes later you have not received the meal and start looking for the server to ask what has happened. After waiting ten more minutes they walk by an adjacent table, and you ask them what has happened. They tells you that the kitchen was backed up with a lot of orders, and your food will be out in fifteen minutes. The food arrives and you find it to be not prepared very well.

When the bill arrives, it includes a mandatory tip (as is the practice with large parties). You ask the server to remove the tip from the bill. They initially refuse (company policy after all), but remove it after you request to speak to the manager. You leave no tip, but include a message on the receipt explaining why you did not leave a tip.

That's a boundary violated and enforced.

Boundaries represent the basic expectations we have in any kind of relationship, personal or business, intimate or casual. There are reasonable boundaries, but there are also unreasonable boundaries. The trick is that you (and you alone) get to decide (usually with input from others) what is reasonable. Other people often (usually) try to move your boundaries by telling you what they think is reasonable, so it's up to you to know with certainty what is reasonable and what is not reasonable.

Boundaries are not of much use if they don't get enforced. Enforcement requires consequences. If the patrons don't do anything when the poorly prepared food arrives after such a long wait, then the restaurant has not been told they provided unacceptably poor service. Both parties benefit when the boundary is enforced, since the patron has communicated their dissatisfaction, and the server benefits through learning that there are consequences for a job performed poorly. They learn that even if the fault was with the kitchen, the server is still responsible for those they serve. The server might learn to offer a free snack or drink to compenstate for the problem. They could ask the chef and the manager to share the expense of doing this.

Boundaries are different from ultimatiums. The reaction at the restaurant could have been to make a scene, threaten to leave without paying, or to leave and never return, but the best approach is to make the consequences incremental. If the patrons reacted to the delays by asking not only why the food was late, but also asked if they could have some compensation for the delay, they might not need to remove the tip at the end. If they don't ask to remove the tip, then they might plan to never return. Boundaries work best for both parties when they contribute to making a healthy relationship.

However, sometimes ultimatiums (i.e relationshp ending consequences) are necessary. That depends on the exact circuimstances of a boundary violation. A threat or act of violence could be a circuimstance for ending the relationship. For some, adultery is a relationship ending boundary violation. Abuse of any kind is sometimes a relationship ending boundary crossing.

TomJ

Ami said, "Boundaries are tricky things. The hardest thing for me to comprehend about them was that only I could set my own boundaries and only he can set his."

The boundary issue has been a very tricky thing for me. Right after Dday I felt like a little dictator laying out strict rules that my WS had to follow from now on in order for me to feel secure. Plus, I continually added new boundaries for new circumstances because you just can't think of everything your husband will encounter in life in one sitting. There was a list a mile long and the rules were stifling for him because they were so totally against the natural order of our relationship and each new boundary just underscored that I didn't trust him anymore.

It took me a while to realize that I could issue all the royal decrees I wanted and my husband could follow them to the letter, but it still wouldn't restore my trust in him because these were boundaries I set and what I needed to know in order to regain trust in him is that he could set his own appropriate boundaries and not cross them.

When my husband was in the fog he was just insistant that everything was out of his control - that it "just happened" because of "chemistry". Like he was pulled across a boundary against his will. If my husband can't look back on that and see that he was in control of the decisions he made and that he made them knowing at the time that he was crossing a boundary, then any boundaries I set or he sets for himself are meaningless.

The reality was that the "chemistry" of lust and selfishness didn't control him and force him to do anything against his will. The amount of alcohol he drank that first night didn't make him black out for three months and not be in control of his actions. I issue the decree that there will be no more drinking, no more bars, no more nights out with the boys and then, he could suddenly find that he had "chemistry" with his secretary at work and be drawn into another affair that was out of his control and against his will.

I'm not saying that the boundries I set for my husband at first were wrong or useless. They were conditions that had to be met in order for me to keep my sanity and feel some little amount of security while we worked through the consequences of the affair, but they were like artificial boundaries that made me feel like I could control my husband's actions. I was basically telling him that he was right, he couldn't control himself and that circumstances and emotions like lust could control him. I had to realize that I couldn't regain my trust in him and he couldn't show me that he was trustworthy, unless I actually let him set his own boundaries and control himself in any situation.

My husband was on a business conference last week in a tropical resort. The first two days he called me on his lunch breaks, but I got upset because he didn't call me at night before he went to bed. The third day when he called me I had a little breakdown on the phone. Did I want him to call me at night because I didn't trust him? I know that is what he thought. He told me that he feels like he is walking on eggshells all the time. The truth is that I wanted him to call me before he went to bed, so that I would know that he was in his hotel room, alone, at a reasonable time.

Was it because I didn't trust him to set his own boundaries and control himself or was it because of the lack of control I have over my own emotions and obsessions? It's all a tricky business.










"Love is strong, yet delicate. It can be broken. To truly love is to understand this. To be in love is to respect this."
- Stephen Packer -

But can't boundaries be mutually agreed upon? For example, my husband and I have gone round and round about him hugging women. I've been uncomfortable about it for years, and he said that he didn't have a problem with it because he grew up in a loving, demonstrative family.

I'm talking about full front to front hugs here. Also, being in ministry, there's a whole other dynamic that requires a man to be very careful when dealing with women, sometimes hurting women who tend to be drawn to a compassionate, articulate man.

So we've gone through these phases in our almost 20 years of marriage where he would back away from hugging women, and then throw caution to the wind and hug every woman that came into the church. We would have arguments about it, with him usually telling me to "get over it, because it doesn't mean anything".

Well, I firmly believe that this affair started because of him not understanding that boundaries need to be put in place. He had hugged the OW many times full on, and then on that visit last year, he felt like he could kiss her on the lips and that would be okay.

So now, we've revisited the whole boundary issue of hugging women. We've decided that (at least I think he agrees with me) for him - he needs to stop hugging women. For some reason with his personality type, it can be a trigger for unwholesome thoughts.

I've also heard it said that whatever behavior the spouse is uneasy with (in this case, I was uneasy with him hugging other women)- is what the other spouse should do away with in his/her behavior. It doesn't matter whether the other spouse agrees with it or not.

Am I understanding what you are saying about boundaries correctly?

I think that the only way for the relationship to be maintained, ultimately, is when the boundaries are mutually held.

In your example, your husband does not fully agree that a boundary should be put in place for him. His boundary is about whether he gives women the type of hug that can imply something too intimate. Apparently he is only instituting the boundary because you've asked him. It's a boundary he SHOULD have, but he doesn't have it for himself.

Your boundary is whether you will accept this behavior on his part. You've told him that you don't feel honored when he hugs women in this way. (BTW, if it's innocent, then he should be hugging men in the same fashion). He probably has promised to honor you in his wedding vows. Even if he hasn't made that exact vow, I suspect that when asked he'd agree that honor and respect are cornerstones of marriage. However, when he hugs women in this unacceptable way, he violates your boundary. Whether he agrees with you or not, you decide for yourself if you will accept this, and you decide what your reaction will be to this violation of your boundary.

As long as he continues to violate the boundary, he will continue to damage the relationship. If it is severe and chronic enough, it could break the relationship. I would hope that he will quickly come to understand why you have this boundary for yourself, and why HE needs to have his own boundary, not just to respect yours, but because of the wisdom behind it.

TomJ

Thanks Tom for your explanation. I understand it better now. I didn't mean to hijack the thread, and I hope that your answer will help the original poster.

Louise,

Tom has explained things very well. I especially like his note that he should be hugging men in the same fashion. Which is an excellent point to bring up to your H.

I hear your frustration about YOUR boundaries being broken. It is not so much about being right or wrong. You are right, and even more right in light of your husbands affair. However, it still does not change the fact that the only one you have any power over is YOU. Your boundary has been broken and the consequence is first and foremost YOURS.

Your husband sounds a lot like mine was, he goes along to keep the peace, but not really. He says what you want to hear and then does things the way he wants. This is known as passive aggressive behaviour. I have learned to call my husband on this. I tell him it is not about winning an argument but reaching a place where we both can live with something. I point out that if he is going to agree with me just to end the discussion then he is hurting us more than the disagreement was. And it is most assuredly not fair for him to do. If he doesnt want to discuss it anymore than we can let it go and pick it up at another time.

Janet mentioned a very good book Not Just Friends. but I think she is confusing the e-book I recommended with another book of the same title by Janet Abram Springs. The e-book is much different, it is not as long and it is specifically for the WS to read so that they understand what is going on with their BS and what is needed of them.

If you husband does any research at all, and you could easily prove this, he would learn that the estimate time of recovery for a BS from their partners infidelity is 2 and a half years, and that is under the best of circumstances; ie with a partner that is completely remorseful, doesnt blame anyone but themselves for their affair, and willing to do what ever it takes.

Dont despair that your husband doesnt quite get it, it often takes a while for most WS to come out of the affair fog. It is not easy to own such a crime.

Ami

Thanks so much for all the responses. It is really helpful.

Ami, I do have one question. You said that when your H does not want to talk about something you say fine and talk about it later.
My H and I have tried this. Sometimes we agree to a specific time to talk. I use the word talk loosely, since lately it seems like I do most of the talking and he listens and occasionally answers questions. (I'll come back to this)

Other times, like if the discussion starts because it stems off of a normal conversation, at some point if my tone changes or I get frustrated my H suddenly and abruptly decides he is done and tells me so. He then walks off. He goes to bed or whatever and clearly signals to me that whatever I am feeling, I will have to deal with it myself.
Since I was frustrated to begin with this only exacerbates my feelings. I go from frustrated or confused to angry. I feel like he does not care about my feelings and rather than being patient with me he chooses to walk out. This feels indicative of his choice to have the A. Rather than deal with whatever he was feeling at home he chose to walk away and into the arms of OW.

He has been doing this ever since we started to reconcile and even during the A. I find it hard to believe that he will be able to prevent himself from having another A, given the fact that he seems to think dismissing my feelings and exiting is the best way to deal with something.

Every time we discuss or argue I make sure I am monitoring when we should stop. If I feel like we are just beating a dead horse or I can not focus I try to stop. Lately, I even stop if I feel like I am doing all the talking because what is the point if I am just talking to a wall? If we agree to talk about something later... when do you pick it up again? I try to let my H bring it up but I feel like the "can we talk about it later" statement is really "I don't want to talk about this...ever"

So far giving my H time to think about things, feels like giving him time to put more distance between him and the memories of the A.


As for the talks themselves...what should they be like? As I mentioned before I feel like I tell my H how I am feeling or thinking and he just sits there. He says he is listening, but sometimes I think he may be listening, but not hearing me. Should I expect him to say something in response to me? Most of the time he says he does not know what to say besides "i'm sorry" and since he has said it a lot, he is starting to wonder why he still has to say it. Sometimes I am aware that maybe my feelings just discourage him so much he just gives up and shuts down. Then the disscussion just ends because his lack of response kills it or in some cases he only gets frustrated and storms off.

K said, "But can't boundaries be mutually agreed upon?"

My husband and I live overseas. I come home to the States a few times a year to visit my daughters and family. One of my daughters and her husband like to go out with friends for karaoke and dancing. I'm a woman there without a partner and men ask me to dance. I love to dance so I get up and dance - fast dances and slow dances. Sometimes the men get a little too close and/or talk a little too suggestive. I move back and start talking about my husband and I just don't dance with them again. My husband knows all of this because I've always told him everything I do and he has never had a problem with it.

The night my husband first met the OW and started his affair he danced with her. It was the first time in our relationship that he had danced with another woman when I wasn't present. I was in a quandry over this at first. Had my husband even crossed an appropriate boundary when he danced with her, if it wasn't a boundary that I held up for myself?

After thinking it over, I realized that there was a difference, so I discussed it with him. I was always been surrounded by family and friends when I danced with another man. He was out alone with a business acquaintance that he barely knew and who was single and flirting with all the women there and encouraging my husband to do the same. The OW was flirting heavily with my husband before she asked him to dance with her.

Even though there was a difference, I told my husband that I am no longer going to dance with any man other than a family member when he isn't present. I expect him to uphold the same boundary. We have both seen where "innocent" flirting and a dance with a stranger can lead to and I don't think it's appropriate for either of us to put ourself in that position again. He agreed with me, but it's still up to him to maintain that boundary for himself.

I can tell you that if he hadn't agreed with me, I would not have been very happy. You set your own boundaries, but if you don't show respect for your spouse's feelings then you run the risk of alienating them. What your husband doesn't seem to realize is that in a loving relationship your happiness is tied together. If he continues to make you unhappy, then he is destroying his own happiness.

"Love is strong, yet delicate. It can be broken. To truly love is to understand this. To be in love is to respect this."
- Stephen Packer -

Louis,

You wrote: I use the word talk loosely, since lately it seems like I do most of the talking and he listens and occasionally answers questions.

Those are words I could have written myself. My Hs A was not his first betrayal. 9 years before the A he finally fessed up to a drug addiction. Mostly, we did the talks like you describe. Mostly, he felt resentment that I was so angry when it was him that was going through withdrawal and had to feel bad. He didn't acknowledge what his addiction did to our boys and I until after his affair 9 nears later. I just learned to shut down and not care, which wasn't good for the marriage. I learned to suck it up and put on a strong front and move on. Also not good for the marriage, but worse for me because I was in denial about all the hurt I felt inside and refused to let out.

After the Affair, I said no MORE! He either dealt with the raving lunatic his choices made me or he could find the door all on his own. He chose to be there with me. I am still amazed myself by that, I honestly didn't think he had it in him. I learned to admit that I was part of our cycle by enabling and covering up for him. I learned to set the boundaries for myself and give myself a consequence.

We didnt learn how do deal with his passive aggresiveness overnight. We went through 3 years of counseling together. I wouldn't call it MC, because it was more like we shared our IC sessions, with a little MC thrown in here and there, and then more so much later. We also did a group therapy for awhile with other couples who were dealing with infidelity. Lastly we attended Retrouvaille (a marriage encounter program for couples whose marriages are in serious trouble).

Sometimes I think I work harder at communicating in a productive way than he does. But then I remember how bad he used to be and stop patting myself on the back. We both work at it that is why it is working.

Your husband wants things to go back to the way they were, but that just isnt possible. You have to stop the cycle you are in, because it isn't working. Decide what the consequence is going to be for you not receiving the validation you need and then stick to it. Dont tell him what will happen, it isn't his boundary its yours. Just do it. If he asks, of course explain. But you have to stick to your boundaries. Make the consequences easy in the beginning. He might not even notice, but it isnt about him, it is about you. For me, one of my consequences was just looking up Divorce lawyers in the phone book and writing down a couple I thought promising. As simple as that seems, it nearly killed me to do, and I cried through the process, but I felt better about me later on.

You can not change him. You can not change him. You can not change him. But you can change how you interact with him. The only power you have is over you. He will try to change you back, and it will be hard to fight the impluse to get back into infuriating, but comfortable patterns, but you can do it. Maybe he will wake up, maybe he wont, but you will have learned where your power is and always was. With YOU!

Louise, I think everyone of us stumbled and bumbled through our recoveries. The first year is about surviving in anyway you can. Be kind to yourself.

Ami

The message was removed due to a violation of our site Policy, which prohibits posts that are "designed to solicit business or interviews from forum members". Because the same message has been repeated on a large number of threads and is unnecessarily intrusive, we have concluded that these messages are not intended to further the stated purposes of The Healing Heart.

Doris,

It is very unusual for someone to post an email without a story. Please tell us yours.

Members, I would warn you against emailing someone we all no nothing about.

Ami