I have not posted here before, but today especially I feel the need to tell a little of my horrible story to those who will understand it as no one else can. I have read many of the posts and have been helped and encouraged. I have a good therapist and supportive friends, but it's still not quite the same. I find that when I talk to my friends they have an "agenda" for me; a good, kind one, but an agenda nonetheless and that wears me out.
My husband had an almost 5 year affair with a woman who was a client - he is a therapist. She had been his client for a couple of years and then they began the affair. She continued to be his "client" for another year and have sex in his office almost every week and then her husband found out. They divorced some months later. Why her husband didn't report my husband to the state license board, I don't know. I wish he had, because that would have ended it right then. The affair continued with her living in a town close by, and him seeing her at least weekly and sometimes spending the nights with her when I was away visiting family, etc. I will spare you all the details of how he managed it except that he was very good at betrayal and lying and I was utterly clueless. As I write this, my hands are shaking. I am on medication for severe major depression.
I found out this February when I found pornographic pictures he had taken of her in his office that fall and other nude pictures of her taken in other locations. When confronted, he admitted it and immediately stopped contact with her, telling me he was "relieved" to be found out. As you know, there are no words to describe the horror, pain, despair and shock. He says he was never in love with her and the forbidden sex was the biggest part of it, as well as, in his words, trying to "make it up to her" that he had cost her her marriage and her relationship with her three daughters.
We are together and he is willing to work, but from day to day I don't know what will happen. Our two grown daughters want nothing to do with him. I have read and will continue to read the many good books on this subject, but some days, it feels like it just happened, and today is one of those days. Thanks for listening.
I am actually rushing to leave work to meet my very reformed and wonderful husband so don't have as much time as I would like to "talk" but want to say a few things before I rush out:
-I am so, so very sorry that you are here but as you have already noticed, it is a place of great comfort from people who understand the devastation in ways that no one else can. (I lived through my best friend's experience with adultery. I was there for her but now realize that I didn't have a clue.)
-Your story is ugly but I assure you, mine would make your skin crawl (and later, I would be happy to share it.)It took me a long time to get over the shame of it all and still have to remind myself that his shame is not mine.
-The pain remains raw for a very very long time. This is a wound that doesn't heal easily but gets ripped open very very easily.
-Most importantly, my formerly repulsive, cheating, devious, lying, cruel, selfish, disgusting H is now a loving, kind, honest, respectful, giving and caring man. It is truly unbelieveable! It took a lot of time and effort, with many,many setbacks, but we have mostly healed. It is now almost 4 years and the most progress was made in the last year. Now, when I think about the dark (8) years, it feels surreal. He is not that man and I, thankfully, am no longer that stupidly naive woman who could so easily be duped. In some ways, it is taking longer to forgive myself than to forgive him.
So, welcome. Ask any questions, write anything, express yourself freely. There are not really any answers but there is great relief in sharing and talking to people who know.
I too am in therapy and take medication. I have learned a lot there and am finally ridding myself of the ridiculous ideas I learned and embraced - there is no fairy tale, there is no white knight..life is hard, complex and often disappointing. SO, now what? And basically, that is what we talk about for an hour each week.
Your new friend,
Susan
This message has been edited by selfesteemseeker on Jul 9, 2009 5:19 PM
It is unbelievably encouraging to hear your happy "ending" although I know it's not an ending but a new journey. And bless you for taking the time to write to me. It's very difficult, maybe impossible for me to imagine being where you are. My H is very messed up and I think he is just beginning to "get it". He fights that and he fights me sometimes and then sometimes he really tries . I know he loves me and does not want to lose me, but the hole he has put us in is so very deep.
Yesterday was really horrible; we were up into the wee hours talking, talking and I'm not sure it did any good. I just feel an angry, hopeless deadness.
How did you and your H get where you are today? I know that's a huge question, but I guess I want to know that if we hang on and do the work with our IC's and let time do it's work, that we might make it back to something good. He needs to find the man he lost for those years, and I don't have the strength to help him with that much. I can barely keep myself going.
Hi Cathy,
I so remember being where you are - hopeless, hopeful, enraged, in love, frightened, furious and in a kind of pain that has no words.
This is my story.
I fell in love and married my H, partly for legitimate feelings and partly for the holes he filled in me. He is handsome, successful, English, charming and smart - and made me feel like I had won the prize. Life went on, we had two kids, he became President of a company and things went bad. He developed a drinking problem which turned into full blown alcoholism. He became mean, irresponsible, emotionally cruel, came and went as he pleased, made all kinds of ridiculous excuses for his absences. And then, he would be sweet and the sun would shine again.
I accepted all kinds of unacceptable behavior to keep the "prize" and still cringe when I think about the impotent screaming and yelling that went on along with the lies I bought ("I'm in a conference room", "cell phone doesn't work," "3 hour line to get coffee", etc.) I was in such denial and increasingly off balance, anxious and crazy as things just didn't make sense.I have a career where I have power and success - and yet I accepted such crap at home!!!
Then, I found the note in his briefcase - "Dearest X - blah,blah,blah....you are the woman I should have married." I woke him up in the middle of the night, literally hitting him and calling him names (that is not who I am). Part I of the story came out - 8 years earlier, he began an affair with a woman that worked for him. It was a total cliche- half his age, adoring, made him feel special. He claimed it was physically active for about 6 months but there was intermittent contact for the many years that followed. Still not sure I totally buy that.
Even that night, we kind of said that we would try to find a way to get our relationship back but there were screaming matches, crying, hysterical bonding, expressions of love, expressions of disgust and I was deranged - crying all the time, punching walls, truly traumatized and in a world where nothing made sense but finally, everything did. One minute I loved him and hugged him, the next I hated him and wanted to spit on him. This went on for a very, very long time.
H went to a therapist who specialized in addictions and stopped drinking - huge difference in his behavior. We went to MC and I went to IC and still go.
Parts 2, 3 and 4 gradually came out - all involving younger work-related women (ONS, inappropriate flirtations,and the most disgusting of all - a married client.)
All those nights he lied to me!!!! All those experiences he didn't share with me!!! All the intimacy he had with others!!! What he did in our family car!!! Things he must have said about me!!!Things he must have done!!! Time he stole from me!! Even now, I can get worked up......but the feelings are also different today. I have learned that he was really a mess and the jealousy and rage is gradually being replaced by sadness, even pity, for the pathetic life he was leading.
We talked endlessly about the A's...people here will tell you that you are entitled to the entire truth and that WS should be willing to tell you everything whenever you want him to. Wasn't that clear for us. He told me a lot - it was all we talked about for at least a year....but I still don't think I know everything...and he reached a point where he just couldn't talk anymore and feared that our life would always be about his past and not our future. I had to let up a bit - he earned that. WIth help of IC,I recognized that he had been lying as a way of life for a very long time - he wasn't going to become truthtful overnight.
Here are some things I want to tell you - kind of randomly:
-Today, you are numb and sick and will stay that way for a long time (so, so, so sorry). That is trauma - your world is not what you thought it was and it does not make sense. Your "protector" stabbed you in the back. That is not supposed to happen.
-Time is your biggest friend, though it is hard to believe that in the early days. Time will help heal the wounds. Time will give and your H a chance to talk about it and process it. Time will help change your perspective and even that perspective will change year by year.
-Your H needs to DEMONSTRATE that he is remorseful and wants the M. He must try to give you the things you need. Sometimes this got a little murky - there were many days when I wasn't sure I wanted the M and I am sure he felt the same way. I think there are times when you just have to walk the walk and see where it goes.
-Where I differ from some people here is that, in my case, I couldn't get all the information I wanted on demand. I think there is a fine line between getting the truth and punishing your H - and if I am honest, I did a lot of punishing which wasn't good for us but I couldn't help it for a long time. For instance, I wanted really in-depth, specific sexual details - that just wasn't going to happen. That would make me lash out in ugly, even vulgar, ways.
My IC tried to get me to understand that, despite the hideous things that H did, it was not helpful to treat him like the animal I thought he was. That was not easy for me but as she told me, there are always choices. I can choose to insist on forcing conversation but that may not lead to the M I wanted.
-H needs to dig down deep to understand why it happened - and talk to you about that.
-I needed to dig down deep to understand how I allowed myself to be in the relationship and to be in such denial. (For some people here, their spouses were great Hs before D Day - that was not true in my case.)
-Spend time together. Between our two sons and our careers, we did lose eachother and he took the selfish,coward's way out. We re-kindled the romance and the joy we found in eachother 25 years ago.
-Don't worry about forgiveness. I don't even know what it is and have chosen not to let it be a factor. For you, it may become a concept that will help you heal but for right now, don't even bother.
-You and your M will never be the same...but you and your M CAN be stronger.
There was a lot of grief when I had to bury my old M and the innocence and purity that I thought were part of it. I am a woman who has been cheated on - like everyone here, never thought that would be me.
-For me, things started to really change at about the 2.5 year mark - just started to really believe the things I was hearing - not my fault, not about me, I am not worthless - and enough time has passed for me to believe that H had really commited to change and to our M.
I had IC this morning and we talked a lot of about regrets and how they are eating me up. Our M is very healed and loving but I have a way to go personally- to start living in the present and looking towards the future, to give up the anger that keeps me from being fully happy. I told her that our conversation sounded like bumper stickers....but she is right.
So, I know I have rambled...there is so much to say about the pain you are in today and how you can get to a tomorrow that is better. Please ask me anything, tell me anything.
Susan
You mention that you are both going to individual counseling but you don't mention marital counseling.
I believe I read somewhere on this site that three parties need healing after an affair, the BS, the WS, and the marriage. IC can certainly help with the first two. But MC (with a good counselor) seems like the best way to start healing the relationship. It sounds like your husband is not yet cooperating with reconciliation in the way you need him to. A MC may be able to help mediate those issues.
Marriage counselling after an affair can be an important step in healing a marriage, but there has to be commitment and a "want to be there" attitude on the part of the WS.
I think focusing on individual healing is a priority at first, for both parties. It is a survival mode at first. Then if there is a true desire to reconcile, marriage counselling may be a next option.
Just keep in mind there are good cousellors and bad. Some are good individual counsellors but have no experience in dealing with marital infidelity, etc. and vice versa.
IC and MC don't have to be with same counsellor, although sometimes it helps. Mine saw enough in WS after 3 sessions to know he was in counselling b/c I told him he had to be, not because he actually wanted to work on issues.
It is amazing to me how much less isolated I feel after hearing from all of you. I didn't even know I felt that way. Susan, your story IS truly awful and you are still struggling with some of the things that loom the largest for me, besides the betrayal itself, which are; the lost years, the tainted memories, the hideous visions in my head, the horrid unfairness of it all. For instance, what in the world do I do about Christmas this year? All those Christmases that I thought were happy and all the time he was having sex with her whenever and wherever, basically. I don't even want to BE there for Christmas, or vacations or other holidays or birthdays or even just the every-days. Is just wanting to "not be there", to be able to just check out - is that normal? I don't even want to try most days. I have been the strong one for everyone else all my life and now I just don't feel up to much of anything. My Dr. says that that is the depression talking and that the meds will help with that as we go.
Our IC is VERY good at that (IC) and we both trust and like him. I feel in very good hands with him and my husband, the therapist, trusts him. Whether he can do the actual "affair repair" we are not sure, but right now, we are both so raw that I 'm not sure we are even ready for MC. We'll figure that out later I guess. Thank you for the input.
Susan, I want to read and reread your post and then I may have questions or just more of the" horribles" as I call them. Bless you for sharing.
El, I have been thinking, thinking about your comments about the three things that need healing and that the only one I can do is to work on my own healing. I am still running around trying to fix the M and fix my H (he likes for me to do that) and I'm just worn out. Obviously, I can't do it! I am attending Al-Anon, because there has been a problem drinking issue as well, and those people, like so many of you, have done the work to be healthier. I want to do that, too, but most days, I am just too tired or too sad.
Dear Cathy,
I related to everything you said and remember feeling exactly as you describe your feelings. I wanted to check out. I would never, ever, ever commit suicide but I could actually understand for the very first time how someone could get to that place. Facing each day and its pain just felt like too much to bear. I couldn't eat, couldn't sleep, couldn't focus on work - I was consumed by pain, hatred, rage and obsessed with the OW, the past, the injustice and how every minute of those years was false and taken from me. "How could you do that to me?" was the refrain that repeated itself over and over in my head. So, yes, everything you are feeling is normal or at least, shared by me.
But I really want you to know that it possible to recover, to get to a better M, to love again, to learn from it, to get wiser....all, of course, at a cost. But that raw pain is not there anymore for me. Sometimes, the rage re-surfaces but really,not the pain as I have come to learn how very, very sick my H was and I have seen how much he has done to earn his place in my life. Others here feel differently but I don't think he could have loved me and done what he did. For me, love is behavior. I do believe that he was able to compartmentalize but love? Can't accept that. Now, I know he loves me and behaves in loving ways. Of course, there are skirmishes and arguments but they are "respectful" and almost never refer to the A's.
I too have gone to Alanon and read the books - as I think I wrote, my cheating, lying H also turned out to be an alcoholic. If it is not too private, did your H have a drinking issue? In addition to seeing a gifted and amazing psychologist that specializes in addiction, H also goes to AA. I often go with him to the open meetings and have learned a lot there beginning with recognizing that all my stereotypes of who an alcoholic is were so very wrong. I learned a lot about how alcoholics think and also learned a lot about how to live a richer, more honorable life. IC, MC, AA saved us and made us better....but it was not easy, it was filled with setbacks and it took a long time.
Oh, and listen to everything El says. There were also tons of others whose words helped me go on "one day at a time."
I spoke to someone who works with alcoholics and she said that she noticed how sensitive they are as people - and the drink is a way of dulling the pain. Just thought to add that.
Also my feeling that the pain and suffering from an affair is a huge test of how much a human can take - In my case this has turned my life upside down and changed me from head to toe - I can only hope that the outcome is for the better - I am certainly different and sometimes wonder if I was in touch enough with the pain of the world - My wife's A certainly confronted me with a barrow load of that.
Remember that your H is going through a kind of grieving as well as you. He is having to adjust to the picture of himself as a betrayer, as an exploiter/manipulator of both you and the OW.
My H had a 4.5 year affair with a work colleague who lives in another city, which involved him finding excuses to travel to her town, to take days off work when she came to our town, to get to conferences she would be attending etc. He often missed important family occasions and wasn't there to help me or our children deal with life's ups and downs. He also spend hours on the phone and writing e-mails to her. After 17 momths her H confronted her and she said she would stay for the sake of the family. My H told me about the affair at that time. Unfortunately OW wouldn't accept that it was over and H couldn't go no contact for similar reasons to your H: he felt an obligation to her. So another year of passionate e-mails (but no physical contact) went by, until I found out what was going on. H promised to end it but still couldn't bring himself to send a final definitive NC letter because he didn't want to hurt her. So they kept up the phone calls and eventually met once for sex. A couple of months after that I found out and that was the final jolt which brought H out of the fog and made him accept responsibility for his part in the whole thing. Ironically it also made him see that he was not responsible for her: she had invested too much this fantasy of the perfect romance with him as the white knight and her as the damsel in distress. Judging by recent contact she still hasn't let go of the fantasy but H most certainly has.
I think your H is like my H was after the first D-day five years ago. He was sheepish, embarrassed, sorry that he had been caught but somehow not sorry that it had happened. He tried to convince me and himself that OW was a valid alternative to me, that it had happened because they were strongly attracted to each other, that there was real love between them. And he subtly pushed the blame on to me. Never said it was my fault, but made remarks like "I wasn't sure if you loved me", "I could never make you happy", "She made me feel good". So just like your H, we would discuss the affair and sometimes he would be defensive, cross or silent but occasionally I would think he was getting it. After the second discovery 4 years ago he was more often understanding and less often defensive, but there was still an element of blaming me ("At least she liked me, and you were always so angry"). It was only after the final discovery two years ago that he could fully come to terms with his role and say honestly to me that it wasn't about me or her, it was about him.
Having been through almost seven years of dealing with his behaviour, I can now see that so much of it was about him trying to make himself feel better about what he had done. He kept up contact with OW from the very beginning because he wanted her to let him go in a way that he wouldn't feel bad about. She never did and it took him the whole 4.5 years to accept that he would have to be the one to end it, whatever the consequences to him. When he did, he immediately felt better. He now says he can't understand why it seemed so hard at the time. As soon as he was able to tell her it was over, his self esteem jumped (because he was no longer lying to both of us, because he didn't have to worry about being found out), his depression disappeared, he became optimistic about our future, he was prepared to do anything to help me heal. In fact he wanted me to know the whole truth, not to hide anything from me. He encouraged me to check his e-mails because it felt good that there was nothing for me to find.
So from what you say, I think your H is at the very beginning of this long process. While he is not in contact with the OW, he is grieving, not for their relationship but for the changed image of himself, the knowledge that he could do this to you, to himself, to OW. My H prided himself on his sense of "fairness" - why couldn't he see that the affair wasn't "fair" to either me or OW? The knowledge that he betrayed his own principles is as difficult as the knowledge that he betrayed me.
Like Susan, I now know that my H was a very sick person during the affair. He has suffered from undiagnosed clinical depression on a number of occasions through his adult life, and this five year period was the worst. Being a male he wouldn't seek treatment or even acknowledge it, and getting involved with OW only made it worse, although at the time he thought it would make it better. It was only after the third discovery that he could understand all this.
As for your own current feeling, you are on what has been called the plain of lethal flatness: that point in affair recovery when you just don't care about anything. You will find lots of posts on this board (including from me) about BS coming to that point, the point when it feels like nothing the WS does will make any difference. When you cross over the plain you will either want to stay or feel you should go; if you stay you may well enter the plain again another time and another time. It's part of the recovery roller coaster ride.
The outcome for us is that we are still together, we still discuss the affair frequently but without the anger of the past. He loves me, probably more than before the affair, and can't imagine a life without me. He has done everything I have asked and more. There have been ups and downs, times when he has done something in a way I didn't like, times when I have suspected him of lying again, but when that happenes he listens calmly, takes on board my message and does everything he can to reassure me. We are not out of the woods yet; I still contemplate life without him, I don't feel that I am in love with him, although I do have a deep love for him from our 32 years together. For now I am prepared to stay.
Sorry this is so long; I guess I just wanted to say that all affairs are different but there are common elements in all of them. We all hope that by relating our stories others on HH will see those commonalities and draw hope from them.
Susan and Liz and others, thank you for the responses and for helping me to understand some of what I'm feeling and for the wise things you have to say that were learned in the most horrible way possible. The "plains of lethal flatness" - that is a perfect description. I started the day that way and am finishing it in a rage. I really don't want to look at him or talk to him. Maybe I should go away.
All day, I have been thinking "I can't do this", but I have to. This all sounds very random, but I feel pretty much crazed.
but most important... Cathy it is when you feel crazed that you benefit most from writing here, or going to chat. That is why we are here,someone will always help. We have been where you are and have come out on the other side of healing. It takes hard work and time, this is part of the hard work. Getting the poison out so you can find the love in you again. Love for YOU, then for others. Your whole self esteem has been destroyed. We help you deal with the roller coaster from hell because we have been on it and have learned by talking about your feelings here you learn that what you feel is normal for us. It is totally understandable here, and as wonderful as my friends were, they could not comprehend the unbearable agony I once lived. I wrote here probably 20 times a day, the rest of the time I was in chat! I always got a welcoming hug and loving understanding.
Please write about your feelings. Crazed is understandable. In the next five minutes your feelings will change I promise! That is why we call it the roller coaster from hell. Talking about it however, makes you feel so much better and that is what healing heart is all about.
OK, I have a question about the whole "need to know" issue. Sat. night, I asked about and found out about more details of the secret cell phone my H used for his A. I also found out about more gifts that he gave her that he had lied to me about. He is just now beginning to realize that more lies just keep me from being able to get anywhere, even though the information is so hurtful. I got REALLY angry at him without cursing or being hateful, but I told him in a totally honest and very emotional way just what I thought of him and said that I hated him for doing that to me.
This weekend coming up is another trigger - I have an annual weekend event here in town with a group of girlfriends and each time during those weekends, he has gone and spent the day with her because I was away. So now, how can I enjoy my friends when all I feel is sick and angry at his deceit and selfishness? Again, I don't even want to talk to him or see him.
A lot of what I read says that, as the BS, we DO have the right to have our questions answered (but to be careful about too many gory details) and that we need to be appreciative of the honest answers we get, so that our spouse will continue the honesty. Well, what do we do about the enormous amount of emotion that the answers bring forth? I guess I am grateful for the honesty now, since he started out lying, but what I find out ENRAGES me and I have a difficult time saying "thank you for telling me the truth about what a total creep you are", in a nice calm voice!
He says for me to be careful about saying "bridge burning" things, and I am careful, but the things he DID are the ultimate bridge-burners for a marriage. Why do I have to feel like I need to walk on eggshells? I hope some of you can help me with the balance here. BTW, in my "old" marriage, being angry, especially even a little bit loud, was not acceptable, so this angry stuff is very new to both of us. Thanks. So glad I have all of you.
Also, Jerry, I liked what you said about learning how much pain one person can bear and about becoming more aware of the pain in the world. If there is anything redeeming about this whole awful mess and tragedy, I guess I can be glad someday.
I have said countless times, one of the reasons I was able to forgive, accept and trust again what my H did was that he took all of my crap. All of it. I never walked on eggshells. Heck, I smashed them if I even saw the egg. I needed the truth and he was going to give it to me or we weren't goint to make it. For me at that time, control over my emotions was something I had very little of. When I had a calm moment, I made sure to tell him I understood how hard this was on him too and to show him that I was trying with every fiber of my bone to deal with the pain. My husband would say that it was what I needed and what he deserved for what he had done, and then he would apologize for putting me in the place I was in.
Seems to me you are not burning bridges, but reacting to the unfathomable in a realistic manner. To me, when someone cuts you, you bleed. He needs to allow you to bleed, and needs to help you cope so that he can atone for what he did. Consequences are never easy, but he needs to face them, your pain is his consequence. The BS has to suffer the consequences of their WS's action, there is no way I believe they should have to protect the WS from something the BS should never have had to deal with in the first place.
Like Ami, what helped me heal was my H took everything I doled out and it wasn't always pretty. The first 6 months were probably the worst. I did try very hard to emphasize I hated WHAT he did, and not hate him. But I don't always think I was successful in doing that.
Don't be too hard on yourself. You have been delivered a bomb shell - your whole life has been ripped apart. I think it is El who said the first year is just about survival. I know that was true for me - just getting out of bed and getting through the day was a major obstacle. Concentrate on yourself and do what makes you feel better.
I was one of those people who had to know eveything - all the gory details. I do not regret knowing them. I truly think it helped me heal. There were no longer secrets between them. But everyone is different on that one. I know it helped me.
How you react to those details are very difficult. I could only take a little in at a time. I have no real advice on how to handle hearing the worst things in the world. I usually stormed off and cried for a very long time. What did help - was my H would come and find me and just hold me while I cried. He did that for a very long time and it helped.
I wish I could reach out and help you more. It has been almost 7 years for me. We are a success story, so it is definitely possible.
What kind of person has an affair, then forces their betrayed spouse to "walk on eggshells" (suppress their emotional reaction) in response to it?
If the wayward spouse truly loves their husband or wife and they want a future with them, then I believe there will be a willingness to accept the bad reactions, to answer the questions, and to calm the fears, as long as there is nothing abusive.
My wife often claimed that answering certain questions was too hard, but I eventually learned that she was using this to avoid answering questions where she would either have to lie to me or tell me an answer that would hurt, incite my anger, and leave her feeling guilty. Once I understood this, I did not accept "it's too hard" and pushed for truthful answers. She chose to lie instead of telling the truth, but at least we were one step closer to the truth than before. Eventually (with further efforts) she took that final step to the truth.
As a counselor, your husband should understand the need for him to truthfully answer your questions. As far as "burning bridges", I'm not sure I understand what is being discussed, but many times angry people say extreme things that they don't really mean, which he should also be able to understand and consider whenever they are said.
I agree and somewhat disagree with Ami about her comments re. a repentant WS will take everything you dish out. A spouse who is immediately repentant on d-day and KNOWS that they deserve every scrap of your anger and then sum may be able to take it all even as she/he is trying to face their own shame, heal and help you heal and heal the marriage. But lots may most WS are struggling I think with their repentance and letting go of the A and facing their actions. I don't think a WS should be protected at all. But it may help if you can direct your anger at your WS' actions/behaviour and stay away from criticising him as a person and contempt for him as a human being. If any part of you feels that he is a good person who has acted in a very weak and terrible way try to focus on those actions and preserve your image (and his) as a good person. I think as a BS I needed to believe my H was at heart a good person who had behaved very badly. I think he needed to believe that to get beyond it himself and needed to know that I believed it about him. Still there were many times when I didn't feel that way and had to keep coming back to that to find a way to stay and keep on working on recovery. MM
Agree or disagree, is fine with me and what this site is about. We come from different POV's.
I understand what you are saying about a Remorseful WS vs an UnRemorseful WS. Initially my H was UnRemorseful I simply was unable to controll my outbursts much past making sure my sons were not around to hear. My H did get it quicker than most though, but partly that is because I was such a mess. I hear about the restrant that BS's are able to maintain, and I amazed. My world was blown apart, and I just couldn't act any other way. He either dealt with or he left, there was no other way for me.
Anger is natural and is about the blood flowing from a hurt heart - But, that blood is able to flow without end as is the nature of love - And I have read also that the break in the heart like a break-through in a way; a break in the defences of the heart. The energy of anger can transform as it moves towards change. And, the "burning bridges" are only a recognition of a loss of the old as change comes - And there is the potential for great change in these times of intense hurt. One change I recognised early on and spoke of with my wife was that the marriage, as it was, was over. This helped me, and perhaps her, recognise that we were not going back and had to see things anew. It only meant that we recognised things had to change in some fundamental ways.
One day I got so out of control that my H said "Please just stop, I'm going to throw up if you continue, its making me sick". Finally, I could see that he felt my pain! Of course, I told him that is the way I had felt for the last 4 months, every day times 10, plus the weeks of the A when I was being rejected. As some others said, its not really in my nature to yell and scream and hurt someone else. I did need someone to set a boundary somewhere, though, its not really his place to do it. And, him setting boundaries is just as likely to set me off as it is to be productive. He tried to do it from the outset saying I'll do whatever it takes but that he couldn't be my slave and do everything I wanted for the rest of our relationship. So much for "I'll do whatever it takes". Every once in awhile through those crazy emotions, however I would actually have an insightful moment. In that particular case, I told him that rest assured I had no intention or desire of being in a relationship where I was the master of all things. In fact, I was somewhat offended to think that he would think that is something I would want in a relationship. I divorced my first H to get away from that highly dysfunctional role and have no intention of recreating for myself. The WS is in a really difficult place, but they put themselves there so they need to deal with it.
Here are a couple of things I did before asking questions:
I would send an e-mail with the questions. By putting it in writing it would help me be clear on what I needed to know and why I needed to know it. It also gave him time to think about the answers and it avoided the "I can't remember" answer.
When I finally made an ultimatum that he arrange to get me the cell phone bills from work or I would leave I sent him a message that said, "should I be prepared to see anything worse than phone calls to OW on my bday, phone calls at other inappropriate times (is any time appropriate...ha, ha), a phone call right after our dog died, more than one phone number - that is, more than one OW." In this way, I let him know what I had already thought of and was somewhat prepared to handle. No surprises for either of us once we started talking.
We also started setting some ground rules when we were going to have a talk. Be very clear that there were plenty of outrages and not so well planned conversations. He would say please don't cry, I would tell him that I would do my best but if I did he just needed to hold me. And we would talk and if the conversation was slipping we would stop, cry, hug, regroup and then move forward with the conversation again.
After he confessed, I was elated that I was not crazy, jealous, controlling, etc. I told him "I'm doing ok right now, but I expect that tomorrow I'm going to be flaming mad, but lets go to dinner I have a feeling we're going to need our energy." Giving a heads up on where you are at emotionally. We are none of us mind readers especially in a crisis.
I also noticed patterns of when my emotions would go off into the bad lands so I would tell him or he would ask. I would tell him, "I'm triggering I need some space". Or, "I haven't slept well so I need to go take a nap or its going to get bad, will you rub my back and help me to to sleep". "I just can't hold it in anymore, I have to cry. I'm sorry if you are having a bad day too, but I need you to be strong right now and just take it." Give him a way to help you heal. Having been manipulated it feels incredibly foolish and terribly vulnerable to tell him exactly what to do to make you feel better. I resisted it, but eventually as I did it a little bit and it helped me, him and the relationship I did it more and more. He usually panics and forgets what to do which tells me that he's not using what I'm handing to him to manipulate me. But, its really scary to do it the first few times.
I absolutely agree with Ami that my husband taking my crap, insults, etc is part of the consequences he deserves and the proof that he really, really does want to be with me and fight for our relationship. I mean really he could have pleasure in the hands of the OW who has not a care in the world of how much debt he's racking up to entertain her and make himself happy or psycho witch making him face his demons. Hmmmmmm which one would you take? I have to say that I think that I should have been harder on him, I often feel like in my effort to reach my own personal health through compassion and forgiveness I was waaaayyyy to easy on him. I am very goal oriented and for me it is the destination, not the journey. I really didn't want to say anything that would be so damaging or that might be remembered as having "a shred of truth" or "is that what she really thinks about me". It probably did help with his healing, but him surviving a little more damaging behavior on my part may have moved our relationship healing and my healing along faster. It's a difficult balance to try to heal all three at the same time.
I think that my H prefered the angry outbursts or nasty things I might have said, to the broken hurt woman who huddled in the corner struggling to find a reason to go on. Whether he answered a question or not, I walked around for the first year a person obviously in great, emotional pain. Good or bad marriage prior to an affair, I can't imagine I would feel any other way then devestated. It was that devestation that effected my husband the most, and I love him the more for having the courage to face it and help me climb out of it.
This is a really difficult and emotional discussion. For me, it was just not that black and white. In fact, the whole process was full of contradictions, backwards and forwards, "shoulds" vs. "dids", love alternating with hate - it was just messy, disgusting, confusing, disorienting and filled with terror and hope.
My H was totally remorseful from the moment of discovery. We both committed to the M instantly (sometimes, I think I did that too quickly - should have let him earn his right back to the M)and re-discovered eachother with lots of affection, sex and talk of love.
Then, I would scream at him - sometimes in very vulgar, crude terms. It was like monsters had invaded my body. Once, I woke up in the middle of the night and started to (feebly) hit him as I realized I was the babysitter that rushed home from work and enabled his A's. (I am not a violent person!!) I absolutely did say things that could be considered "bridge burners."
Then, the love talk would resume and I would be the opposite - thanking him for his honesty, being encouraging, etc. I remember that often, when I said I loved him, I would follow that in my head with, "you f-ing bastard." I was crazy, he was crazy, it was exhausting and horrific.
Yes, he took it all for a long time but there did come a time when it had to stop -when he would no longer accept the abuse, when it started to feel like intentional punishment, when he began to feel that he had earned the right to at least be treated like a human being, when he became afraid that the rest of our lives would consist of me having outbursts and screaming at him. I disagree with Ami that you have carte blanche.(Maybe that is not what she is saying...I shouldn't speak for her.)
One thing I have learned from my incredibly wise IC is that just about everything is complicated, that life is messy and that we need to make choices that consider the consequences. We can choose to scream and yell at our WS if we want but we just need to be prepared for the consequences. I have come to believe that remorseful WS, who are really changing, should not be tortured indefinitely. At the beginning, I am not sure it was about choice - it was about insanity. For us,my expressions of rage and disgust started to wind down at the end of year 2 and virtually disappeared by Year 3, though I still feel the temptation in rare moments.
As for getting the details - the full story (I think) came out over a long period of time, which was extremely painful and difficult for me. He just didn't understand that each revelation set me back to the beginning of the trauma. I finally had an insight into his shame - I was so ashamed that my H had cheated on me that I could not tell anyone (except my best friend, whose H had also had an A). I just couldn't be that person or bring those words to my lips, feel that humiliation, tell anybody the kind of man I was married to....so I started to understand how he couldn't tell me the disgusting things he had done and how afraid he was of my reactions. (Now, as a sign of my healing, I am really OK talking about it to good friends - I finally know it was not me and I am not a loser for having been cheated on.)
We did talk about it endlessly for most of those first 2 years - how, when, why, over and over, always ending in tears and accusations (me to him). But,there are also some details - the most graphic ones - that I just didn't and won't get. I wanted him to tell him but he just couldn't/wouldn't do it - too shaming, too embarrassing, too disgusting, too afraid, too British....I don't know but I knew I was not going to get them, whether I had a right to them or not. So, there is that horrible choice again - am I prepared to leave him over that? No, so I have to find a way to live with it. For someone like me, it was extremelyl difficult not to know EVERYTHING but as time has passed, it seems less important. Also, I question whether I would have ever gotten answers to some of the questions. Honestly, if the situation were reversed, I don't think I would ever have told my H that the theoretical sleazeball OM was better, bigger,or what he did to me. I just don't think I could or would. Those are words that can never be taken back.
One thing I also had to realize is that H couldn't change overnight - he had been a liar and cheater for so long....he needed to learn new ways of thinking and behavior....just like I did. I didn't find my strength and the start of self esteem for years. It took him a long time to understand what he had done, why he had done it and what he had to do to fix it. A LONG TIME!!! Many times, I thought I couldn't go on. But I am now in a happy M with a loving, truly new H. There is always a bit of anger lurking around but I don't feel it most of the of the time.
Cathy, you are so early in this nightmare. Of course you want to torture him, of course, you can't control yourself, of course you hate him sometimes, of course you are terrified and wounded beyond words. My feeling is that you need to try to talk about all of it in a way that is constructive and helpful for you and the M.There are guidelines but everybody and every M is unique. What does your IC and/or MC say? In one of Shirley Glass's books, there was a series of questions that she recommended - they concentrated on the "why"s and not the specific details. We used that list and it helped.
My only other piece of advice is to find a person you trust that you can let it all out with. That could be a friend or IC. There is just too much rage for even the most remorseful of WS to bear alone. I ranted and raved to IC, MC, best friend and there was still plenty left for H.
After all that rambling, I am not sure you should listen to a word I say because I am still in IC, 4 years later, dealing with issues of anger, regrets and masochism....that pre-date my H.
My heart breaks and hopes for you. Please keep coming back.
Susan
This message has been edited by selfesteemseeker on Jul 15, 2009 12:54 PM
"I disagree with Ami that you have carte blanche.(Maybe that is not what she is saying...I shouldn't speak for her.) "
I'm sorry that I gave the impression that anything goes and for as long as the BS wants it to. Gosh I didn't mean to imply that. My time line is similar to Susan's, Insanity the first year, and tapering off through the 2nd, then lastly pretty much not there through the 3rd accept occasionally. YES with out a doubt at some point it has to stop, for the BS as much as for the WS. Again, I am so sorry that people think that I would suggest otherwise, or have the impression that I still rant and rage at my H today.
I might add, continued lieing, D-days, and a foggy or unremorseful WS can make the process take much longer than need be.
>I have come to believe that remorseful WS, who are really changing, should not be tortured indefinitely.
Personally, I don't think that showing my hurt and anger to my wife is an act of torture on her. I certainly hope (and believe) that it's not something she sees as torture. If she did, I would take her attitude as one of indifference (or even hostility) to my pain, more selfishness on her part, and a strong signal that our relationship is not as mutally supportive as it should be.
In addition, I think the idea of showing hurt and anger to the wayward spouse is also part of how boundaries are defined in the relationship. If a boundary is defined (for example, no contact) and contact continues, then there needs to be a reasonable reaction that, among other things, makes the importance of the boundary more clear. I see it as part of the communication process, similar to what has been mentioned regarding showing the wayward spouse the depth of hurt that the affair caused.
I do not advocate using the affair as reason to tortue, nor do I believe it is helpful to abuse the wayward spouse in anyway. Those are not loving acts toward the wayward spouse. Allowing my wife to clearly understand the seriousness of the consequences of her infidelity is what I have tried to do. I think that's a loving act, even if it is uncomfortable for my wife. In general, the wayward spouse may not accept the consequences and might not want to remain in the marriage because of them. I that would have been my wife's reaction, then it would have been evidence that she was not very mature and did not have the capacity to show love in a mature manner to me. It would have been a confirmation to me that our marraige was not reconcilable. I wanted to know that sooner rather than later, so I could work on my personal recovery in the best situation possible.
Ami - I am so sorry if I misinterpreted you. We have known eachother for a long time and your honesty and willingness to bare your soul have helped me so much. We have disagreed sometimes but as you said, there is no one way to heal.
Tom - you are a much better person than I am. I wanted to hurt my H, I wanted to make him feel pain, I wanted him to suffer for what he had done to me and yes, it was a form of torture and I couldn't control myself even when I knew that I was intentionally punishing him. I wanted there to be some fairness in a situation where that is impossible.
That urge lessened as he showed remorse and IC made me look at what I was doing. But, there is a reason that insanity is claimed as a legal defense and I was insane for a long time. I am no longer that person and the urge to punish has been replaced with love and respect.
I think your advice and thoughts are good and right but just not something I (and I think a lot of us) was capable of while in a state of trauma, rage and indescribable hurt. I was able to get to a place where I could behave in a loving way - but at the beginning, I was just crazy, alternating expressions of love with words absolutely intended to hurt.
This message has been edited by selfesteemseeker on Jul 15, 2009 8:29 PM
I felt I punnished my H too. I feel that punnishment was a necessary part of our recovery. Many people will disagree with that, but that is how it was for us.
>Tom - you are a much better person than I am. I wanted to hurt my H, I wanted to make him feel pain, I wanted him to suffer for what he had done to me
I absolutely and frequently felt like hurting my wife. I wanted to hurt her and the OM both emotionally and physically. One thing that stopped me was the realization that I would be breaking social boundaries in doing so. In other words, self-preservation stopped me. However, while those would have been unacceptable acts of punishment, they would have also illuminated the feelings that I was experiencing. My goal was to find more constructive and acceptable ways of showing these feelings to my wife.
She struggled with this though. Like others, she often saw what I was doing as an attack on her, something meant to hurt her. It has only been through much discussion of these things that she has come to an understanding that knowing my emotions is better for her, and she now even sees it as a priveledge. I could (and have) take the other approach where I keep it all to myself, which ultimately leaves her on the outside of my life. She doesn't want that, and while it would be nice to have a relationship where there are only nice and happy emotions to share, the reality doesn't allow that. She is left with a choice, to be on the inside or on the outside of my world, and conversely whether to allow me to be on the inside or outside of her world.
I understand this view is probably a little unorthodox for many. However, I see it as a true intimacy over and above one that is limited and partial. I agree that in the trauma of infidelity things are often so heated that keeping control over yourself becomes very difficult, especially while there is a lot of resistance from the wayward spouse against the betrayed spouse. I could not hit my wife even if that was a strong desire at times, I could not have a revenge affair even if that would have been "justice", nor could I do any of the things that I considered at various times in our recovery. If I did fail to keep myself under control, I needed to apologize and be remorseful for that. However, I needed to express my feelings to her and I needed to see that she was paying attention, that she cared about what I was going though, and that she wanted to heal those wounds however she could.
In other words, while the emotions are strong, the betrayed needs to show restraint in how we allow ourselves to express them, but the emotions still need to be expressed, heard by our spouses, and acted upon. I believe that reconcilation becomes very difficult if there is failure on any of those points.
