First posting - and firstly to say what a lifesaver this forum has been (Ive been lurking for a month or so); despite a fabulous and supportive network of friends, Ive found this forum the only place where I can find an complete understanding just how big and difficult this A stuff is. Thank you to many, and in particular you old-timers, for your so helpful insights, perspectives and experience.

BTW - whilst there are many, many wise and beautiful posts and advice, my current favourite is:

On the other hand, when I ask H questions and he gives me a glimpse into his thoughts at the time...it takes everything inside of me not to look at him an holler, 'HOW STUPID ARE YOU???!!!'

Sometimes the more he tells me about his 'thoughts' at the time, the more respect I lose for him (as if there's much left to lose at this point). I actually start kicking myself for marrying someone so stupid. This is totally my pride talking here - but I have a hard time accepting his moronic thought process as being anything other than STUPID. (Have I said the word stupid enough?? Actually I usually add a few adjectives in there...but they're not appropriate on this site.)

I need to work on 'empathy' .

Kara

This so fits me, I loved it! I laughed and I laughed. (Well, I do like to see the funny side of things where possible, despite this bloomin emotional rollercoaster I have found myself on - to my great surprise, as didnt realize post my very calm and rational (I realize now - probably numb) response to his confession would be followed by such a bumpy hellish ride).

Anyway, to get to the point - here bare facts: together 24 years, 2 youngish children. D-Day (personally using WUC - wake-up call - but wlll stick with forum protocol of D-day) 7 months ago.

I was already at end of tether, stress and exhaustion due to several other factors in my life, mainly BIG problems at work, but also on top had been carrying all the domestic load for the whole of the autumn while hed been off gallivanting in other parts, so this was final straw. Hed been very depressed and down for a few days and I had been worried about him, and so when pressed by me he blurted out/ confessed the A because he was feeling so guilty about my concern - the A was a six-month intense affair, that hed finished two weeks previously out of guilt. And whilst he really loved me, I was always the one forever and ever, he was missing her (didnt realize until later that it was it he was missing and not her), had fallen in love (now knows it was fallen in lust and the difference between falling in love and standing in love) and as his parents had made their similar arrangement work, could he continue to see her and stay with me?

As well as thanking him most profusely for unloading such an (unselfish, caring, really-thought-through) bombshell just before a family Christmas which would now have to be a pretend farce, I pointed out that I was not his gate-keeper or his mother and that he would have to take responsibility for his own decisions, as I would mine. (Next morning, he expressed complete retraction of such request, and big relief at having got the confession off his chest.)

Realise this is turning into an essay - really sorry, the whole story of course could take pages. Anyway, deciding that as life was throwing some challenges at me I had to make the best of it and myself, so threw myself into handling it, the anger, pain, the flashbacks, the obessing, the not eating, not sleeping (all the usual PSTD), giving him a helping hand out of the fog, full disclosure processes (she is woman no 17 it transpires, and no 7 was ONS with my best friend) etc., turning into an ace sleuth (a new career beckons), until my doctor pointed out that I was doing everything, grieving etc, far too fast, I was not superwoman, was too rational, should give myself a break, and ordered me to take some time off work (this was one month in). (Didnt do because couldnt, everything too crucial there.)

Fast-forward to now: superwoman now been signed off work all summer due to stress and exhaustion - trying ADs, very jittery, and slowly trudging towards the far-off horizon on the lethal plain of flatness. Things got way worse at work, (but I did still pull off the project that was important to me), and its been a very bumpy ride at home - H trying very hard, very ashamed and full of guilt (Im not yet convinced or able to differentiate these with any genuine remorse, he seems to wallow in this feeling bad), but H not really much idea how Im feeling or what to do about it (am trying my best on this front).

And now to get to the point of this long ramble - hopefully not too indulgent, just trying to give background: night of D-day straight away my immediate feeling in a blinding flash was a realisation that I had been caring for, looking after everyone else (and was in the process of becoming a respite carer for a disabled child), and hadnt been caring for, or looking after, myself for quite some time. This was a difficult one - how to begin to learn how to do that, or at least put myself higher up my agenda. Now learning, but thats another story.

But believing that we are on earth to care for each other, and that is what I want to do, means caring for the OW. And I do - genuinely, no sanctimony here, nor condescension.

So broke the NC rule early on. H was very concerned for her (she heartbroken, and very very shocked that he had finished it, and wasnt riding off into the sunset with her after all, as she single, 37 and desperately wants a husband and family), as well as feeling guilty, so as he was trying to observe NC (trying being operative word, as this wasnt completely adhered to), I undertook contact. Yes, to help her out of lalaland, and help her feel better about herself and realize that she deserves better than a lying married menopausal male (as does everyone and not that I am valorizing these attributes solely, but she is beautiful, intelligent and kind, and could have her pick of the male population). I feel if you reach out to the best parts of people, you get the best parts. And with three people hurting, I wanted to turn a bad situation from lose-lose for everyone to closer to win-win.

And so farit has been quite healing for both of us, I think we both feel that, and I have had a very sincere apology. I do always feel terrible after contact in terms of PSTD as it takes me into the lions den, the heart of the trauma - and we only ever speak (it has been very occasional) when were feeling good about contact - I would never speak to her in angry mode, because yes, I do very very get angry that she used sex and flattery to deliberately take H away from his family for good (she told him she would never have stopped from seeing his children), and so vent that elsewhere.

I do worry that, even with only occasional contact, its not helping her let go, but feel, on the contrary, and on balance, it is helping her to let go as she now sees me as a real person (we had meant once previously years ago) instead someone she deliberately chose to forget in the middle of that (quote), and she now sees the real situation.

And now we have arranged to meet - next week; a slightly scary notion, butI am upfront about the mutual potential longer-term healing and information-sharing, and so is she.

But my friends advise against it, my counselor thinks I am weird, and the advice on this forum is NC - absolutely.

As it seems to be held to be a bad idea all round, Id welcome any advice, alternative perspectives or own experiences from anyone on this.

(Im sorry this is so long - moderators, I understand if you dont allow it for this reason)

Daisy

Daisy:

Welcome to the forum. I'm glad that you took the step from lurking to sharing. We don't have any limits on the length of a post. Your's seems just right, so there is no need to worry on any front.

Of course, you know that generally we advise against any contact with the OP. That's not a official policy, but our collective opinion is that it's not usually very constructive. We have members who've had contact, some intentional as you've planned to do. In my case, I still have indirect contact with the OM due to circuimstances that we have never chosen to deal with to prevent it. I don't think it helps for us to have this situation, but it was a choice we made.

Similar to you, I was tempted to contact the OM, not so much for a heart-to-heart discussion on any level, but only to ask him to give me any hard evidence that he might of had (particularly copies of their emails). My wife did not want me to do this, and convinced me that it was not a good idea. Her reasons were that we couldn't trust him, so asking him for emails was going to give him some control over our recovery and some insight in to how it was progressing. We didn't want him to have any more power over our relationship than he'd already gained through the affair. Also, my wife did not miss the OM, and was glad the whole thing was over and done with. My wife was still lying to me when all this occured, so it might have helped me to get more information, but the cost (as stated above) might have been more than the benifits.

One reason that I don't think my wife gave in her arguement, but I think is especially important when the OP is angry with the outcome of the affair, is that contact keeps their hope alive that they will still end up with the wayward spouse. Just having the discussion tells them that things are not going as smoothly in recovery as they might imagine otherwise.

One other general point that I'd like to make is while it's essential to maintain a good and positive outlook in recovery, it's also very important that we are open and honest. As you said, you tend to get back from people what you give them, and if open and honesty are your goals, then it's important to offer those things as well. When it comes to your reconciling your marriage, as long as the work is mutual and cooperative, openness and honesty are bulwarks of the relationship.

TomJ

Thanks you Tom, for both your reply and your welcome.

Earlier I had a session with Ami and Len on Chat - and feel my doubts about meeting OW are confirmed. Namely, whilst I felt, and still do, that to an extent meeting could be empowering for both BS and OW, a potential for growth - better be specific here, me and her - I have been persuaded and do understand more clearly now that [me] being such an open book with her is probably empowering her too much, and feeding her addiction, which is why I worried out loud above about contact not enabling her to let go; I guess I just feel on the whole - when not angry - incredibly sorry for her, and how incredibly desperate she must be, have been, to delude herself and forget her values so deeply (which she does/ must have, although this not her first married man) - not to mention, the time of life hormones at play for both of them.

As to your advice about open-ness and honesty being the bulwark, I completely agree. And am trying to be as open and honest as I can be - firstly with myself - and also with H. An exercise in humility and an archaeology of any baser emotions in myself, finely picked over and cleaned up - in this specific instance I feel and hope nothing baser in myself than probably an overweening arrogance in thinking myself older and wiser in thinking I could help her; and perhaps also an arrogance in thinking - ok, give it, the pain, to me all in one go, one fell swoop, I can take it! And also, of course, curiosity - better the devil you know.

(But maybe I am deluding myself, and there are baser emotions yet to comebut am excavating hard)

And gave up being right early on.

Thanks to all for the advice. Have listened. Will not meet OW.

Hi Daisy

I so understand where you are coming from. I also felt very sorry for OW who had invested in this fantasy of the tragic lovers who have nobly given up their perfect romance for the sake of their families (yes, she was married too).

Early on, I wanted to meet with her, discuss it all in the open. H told me "I don't want to hurt her, and I think you don't want to hurt her either." He was very concerned for her, having promised to be there for her whatever happened. She is someone I know who has had a very similar life (professional job, working mum, personal tragedy, career issues). So I suggested that I could befriend her, that she could communicate with me rather than him. To which I was told "That won't work, she's my friend not yours." We exchanged a few e-mails in which we hardly referred to the A, except where she would say she never wanted to lie to her H again etc.

Basically we pretended we were buddies. But, unlike your OW, this one avoided seeing me. In fact she was getting her reinforcement through H who hadn't been able to do NC, so she didn't need me as the inlet into his life. She told him she didn't want to, couldn't bear to see me. On the one occasion where she couldn't avoid it, she told H she could see the hate in my eyes. Actually I was having such a strong physical reaction to being in her presence that I could hardly speak, I wanted to vomit, I was shaking and every muscle was tensed. That physical reaction made me realise that I could never be her friend, however caring I wanted to be.

In the end I realised the only reason I wanted to be her friend, was to reclaim that part of my life that she had stolen. For so long she and my H had a secret which I didn't know about; I thought if we were friends I could become part of that secret and then it wouldn't hurt so much. But all it did was created another secret which brought them together.

I have since learned that H kept in contact for three years after the first disclosure, which involved me in two more D-days before he finally came out of the fog. During that time he was downloading about me to OW, telling her he really loved her not me, promising that they would be together one day, reporting all my anger and abuse (without seeing how he was abusing me). All her friendly little messages to me were LIES. "I never want to lie to my H again" was just bollocks - she lied to her H every time she read an e-mail from my H or picked up the phone to call him.

No real need to tell you all this, I can see that you have come to the decision not to meet with her. What Tom and others have said is true: any contact, even with the BS, just feeds the addiction. It provides information about your H's life so she still feels entitled to be part of it. And allows her to continue the dream of them being together one day. I can feel compassion for our OW, but I no longer want anything to do with her because I also feel contempt.

Hugs

Liz

Adding this by way of thanks and hello to Liz - thanks Liz - and for any other BSs considering doing down same route as I had been re contact with OP.

Another clinching point of advice to me from Len and Ami was how best to use my - currently limited - energy and not to waste it on her, but to focus on me, and me and him. I thought in meeting her, I WOULD be focusing energy on me, but realise that as that would only be in a very round-about-the-houses kind of way, best to be more ergonomic and direct about it, as am already so drained and depleted.

Would write more but have to dash out of door to pick up kids

Daisy