This morning we met with our pastor as mediator/facilitator to surface the divorce issues and help us communicate agreement or disagreement.
At one point, the someday-to-be-ex-Mrs. Chris said,
"I don't want to answer that BECAUSE CHRIS WILL HOLD ME TO IT."
This was such a perfect example of my day-to-day life that I just had to share it here.
1. Hold her to it.
Yes, if she says she wants something, I'm going to expect that she's telling me a truth that she's willing to live with. We're not just pretending that our marriage is over, it IS over. You either want the kid, the house, the dogs, or you don't.
2. Because Chris will...
How exactly did she KNOW that I would do? This is "alternate reality" thinking...claiming she knows what I think, what I will do, or what I will say about something. (She is often wrong, but "still knows" she's right.)
3. I don't want to answer.
Avoid answering. Minimize what I ask for. Deny me a response. Deny responsibility for her own feelings and blame them on me, or blame them on what she imagines will happen (i.e. decide MY reaction for me in advance, then stifle the conversation out of fear of consequences).
Sheesh. Honest, folks, this is EVERY serious conversation with her. When we get close to clarifying or resolving something, she blows up the process with remarks like these.
I have made the mistake of arguing with her mistaken projection of my behavior. I will NEVER make that mistake again. A fool's errand, because you can never convince her that the drama playing entirely in her head (hopes and fears) is a drama of her own making.
She's free to think anything she wants about me (I know it's not much). But the minute her thinking gets attributed TO ME, I'm outta there.
I am 'just' curious to know what your pastor's reaction may have been to your wife's statement.
"I don't want to answer because he will..." is mind boggling for me...this is far from being a game !!!
I am now at the helm of a group home for girls (teenagers !!!) and yesterday we had a "problem" with one of them and her reasoning for not wanting to do "whatever" was : "I dont want to because she (staff) will .." however she is 14 !!! talk about being stuck in a power struggle...and of course it is/was a loose/loose situation.
This comment/answer coming from a adult is far from healthy or rational LOL
Chris wrote >>Honest, folks, this is EVERY serious conversation with her<<
I believe it, Chris. It's got to be *incredibly* frustrating. Still, it's also a good sign that she's willing to accept mediation - at least you've got a conversation started, no matter how batty.
Kat wrote >>I am 'just' curious to know what your pastor's reaction may have been to your wife's statement.<<
I'm curious to know what the original question was.
My wife does the same thing when we have conversations and puts words into my mouth. Funny how they did the deed and then know our reactions to everything.
I wish you luck in the mediation sessions and a better future.
The pastor had just clarified his role as mediator in surfacing/discussing/understanding the divorce issues and facilitator of timely agreement where possible, so as to cut down the lawyer time, court time, and to keep things moderately civil for our sake and the kids' sake.
Her response was to some direct question from him about what she wanted or if there were any issues besides the ones I had put on the table. She had one, but prefaced it with that comment.
She won't deal with me face to face, one-on-one. I won't do this with lawyers at a cost of $400 an hour. So I set up a "safe" place, time, and person, and then she goes into control/manipulation mode.
Or rather, it's "I'm afraid of Big Bad Chris; help me, protect me" mode. It's getting VERY old: she does some direct provocation or manipulation like that and then effectively coopts my response, by saying in advance that my response is the very thing she's afraid of. It isn't ever the SUBJECT matter that's the issue with me, it's the framing and attribution of bad behavior (blaming) IN ADVANCE.
I'm perfectly willing to look at my actual behavior when it happens, and accept responsibility for mistakes. I will NOT allow her inside my head to edit or to control my thoughts or behavior in advance.
One of the reasons I've become a bit calmer now is that I've discovered you cannot succeed at analyzing dysfunctional expressions. You'll get a brain cramp. At least it's what you would expect, right? But the circumstances are different ... you are moving toward freedom.
I had my first migraine in months, starting in the middle of the night Sunday night and disturbing my sleep greatly in advance of our Monday morning meeting.
Chris, you said, "Avoid answering. Minimize what I ask for."
I was nodding when I read this. My W did things a bit differently though. When she disagreed, she would say... NOTHING!
I LIKE debate. I'm a conversationalist kind of guy. This would frustrate me to no end. Her non-response was conditioned in her by her first H, who solved disagreements physically. It took her a LOOOONG time to realize that I'm not him. Matter of fact, she didn't finally realize that until we were pretty far into affair recovery.
Nowadays, I sometimes think of those old days when she wouldn't argue with me. I really miss winning all the arguments. Damn affairs!!
My wife does eventually get to not talking at all, when all the other techniques don't work.
That one's her trump card. Because then she can accuse me of conducting a ten-minute (or fifteen or twenty) monologue. Or accuse me of "beating it to death". Or claim she can't remember what the original issue was.
I’m reading some of these posts and it just all sounds sooooo familiar. Some of your wives sound so much like my first wife.
Her favorite line was, “Well I know I’m not perfect BUT if you’d just do this, or you’d just act like that, or you’d just be this way instead of that way, bla-bla-bla then everything would be fine.” In other words, “I may not be perfect but that has NOTHING to do with ANYTHING- it’s all YOUR fault.” In her mind, she was right, I was wrong, and that’s all there was to it. Throughout our 13 years together she would drag me from one counselor to another, ministers, priests, social workers, therapists, psychologists, anybody who would listen to her sing her sad tales of woe and misery and all would be fine until the suggestion would be made that maybe there was something about her that needed changing - then that would be the end of the party! She would put her nose in the air, press her lips together into two thin blue lines, turn her halo onto full-bright and say things like, “A-holes. They don’t know anything. They don’t understand. They always take your side. They don’t know how you really are.” How do you deal with that? You can’t!
Of course, I didn’t realize most of this until after I was out of the relationship. When I was in the middle of it I couldn’t see it. I mean I would hear this stuff all the time and I would believe it. I thought everything, or at least almost everything, was my fault and I would try to “be like this and act like that” but it was never good enough. I always felt guilty and that there was more I should have been doing. I realize now that I had been suffering from MAJOR depressions for years prior to our divorce and didn’t even know it.
And she hasn’t changed one little bit, (of course why should she? She’s perfect!). On the very rare occasions when I see her now, (because of the kids and grand-kids, on holidays, at b’day parties etc.) she still sounds the same. All her problems are always someone else’s fault. “If they’d just do this and act like that..........”, nose in the air, thin blue lips, the whole deal, and that’s why I can honestly tell you that today I just don’t like her - at all. It has nothing to do with lack of forgiveness, old resentments etc, I simply don’t like who she is as a person. I don’t like anybody who’s like that, ex-wife or not!
One good thing about it though, I sure had my eyes a LOT more open when it came to getting involved in relationships after the divorce. My wife now is nothing like the first one. I picked a good one this time and I can still say that even after she had an affair! I know today that I could never have been happy with my first wife and I have no regrets at all that we are divorced. On the contrary, it was the best thing that could have happened under the circumstances - aside from not having got involved with her in the first place - but then I wouldn’t have the kids I have, so that wouldn’t have worked either.
As they say in poker, "You've got to know when to hold them and know when to fold them." Sometimes you just have to cut your losses and move on.
Yes I do know what it’s like and that’s what I’m trying to tell you guys. It’s simply impossible for you to be wrong ALL THE TIME. I mean, just the law of averages states that you have to be right about SOMETHING every now and then. You, Chris, Bart, what I want you guys to hear is that time has proven beyond doubt that SHE was at least just as much of the problem, if not more of the problem than I was. She was impossible to live with, not me. I have a good life now and her life is a mess. I’m happy, she’s not. “The proof is in the pudding” as they say. I think you guys will find the same thing.
I’ve been reading all your posts for years now and I feel that, even after making allowance for a bit of exaggeration on your part, and the fact that I’m only hearing one side of the story here, you’re all good, decent, caring guys and I’m sure it’s not you that’s the insurmountable problem in your relationships. With all the gymnastics and jumping through hoops you’ve all done over the past few years you’d think something would have had some effect if it was really you that was the problem, right?
I think Bart once “accused” me of implying that reconciliation was possible in all cases. That is not so. The thing is, for me, the wife’s affair was THE problem, THE issue. Everything else in our relationship was acceptable to excellent. I know that is not always the case. I do believe that affairs can be overcome IF the rest of the relationship is solid. It’s like the strawberries and the rash. If the rash is just a rash then you can put lotion on it and it will go away, but, if the rash is caused by an intolerance to strawberries then you can try dealing with the rash all you want and it won’t go away because the rash isn’t the problem and never really was. It was the strawberries. In one case the rash is the problem, in the other it’s just a symptom of the problem. Sometimes an affair is the problem and sometimes it’s just a symptom. I just never wanted to see anybody bail before they were sure whether it was just a rash or whether it was strawberries.
As a PS to this - There’s been 4 or 5 guys since our divorce that thought they could be happy with my X - they were wrong too!
Mark wrote >>after making allowance for a bit of exaggeration on your part<<
What? Exaggeration? Who? You mean Chris? You must mean Chris - he exaggerates all the time. And that SWN guy - I know what you mean about him ... blows everything out of proportion constantly.
>>I think Bart once “accused” me of implying that reconciliation was possible in all cases<<
That was Chris. I'm sure of it.
>>Sometimes an affair is the problem and sometimes it’s just a symptom<<
That's a fact. I also believe that figuring out which is which is critical but very difficult, especially for the first couple of years after d-day.
>>There’s been 4 or 5 guys since our divorce that thought they could be happy with my X - they were wrong too!<<
Perhaps it will affect me in some unexpected way but I'm actually looking forward to my STBX meeting someone who believes that he can be happy with her, partly because I want to know whether she can make a go of it with someone else. If she can, I'll just tell myself that the two of us "weren't compatible". If she can't, well ...
I am sure that some distance down the road I'll get my life all back together in a way that's satisfactory to me.
And I am pretty sure that (like you) there isn't much I'm ever going to find to like in my wife. I don't like her now. I don't like the chickenschmitt way she's done this whole thing. I don't like the way wants to tell me what I should be doing with my life, even after telling me she doesn't want to be a part of it. I don't like the way she whines and plays "hurt little girl" when this is HER choice.
I told my pastor yesterday that I know what I want will never come. She will never take responsibility for her part, she will never apologize for dragging me through these years of hell...because she acts as if it's all me.
And if she's not going to do it now, I sure as heck don't want it later.
And like Bart, I'm morbidly curious to see who hubby #2 is and how that works out.
Or 3 or 4 or whatever. This was a good lesson for me to learn. My X was very abusive and neglecting. A true narccisist(?) as I discovered from Chris post. I figured he would be the same no matter who he was with but there was always that nagging feeling that maybe it really was me. Now that he has been married to someone else for a few years, someone a lot like him, I might add, I can see clearly that it most definately wasn't me. It's too bad that it takes so long to get to that point. I think last year she left him 7 times. SHE throws things at HIM. She goes balistic worse that he does. Her kids are so messed up. The oldest son just got out of jail, child porn on his computer. He is married and has a toddler, which he can only see with supervised visitation. The baby and wife live with his mom, my X's wife and X. Daughter #2 is pregnant with child #2, the daddy of this child is her cousin's (who has lived with them for the last 10yrs)boyfriend. The daughter and the boyfriend also live with mom, ie: XH. Police are at their house off and on, X is always leaving on hunting trips, pays only HIS bills, she has to pay for everything else. I think she could come close to killing him if he ever hit HER. The whole situation is just bizarre to me. My kids refer to them as 'The Jerry Springer Family'.
I look back and cannot believe that I could possibly have been married to someone like that. He is getting his just rewards though.
This will come to you guys in time. You will look at them, and so will your children, and you will wonder what it the heck were you thinking. The really sad part about all of this is that while we are able to get away from these 'sickos' our children are not. And some of them, one of mine in particular, wonders if she has some of these traits of her father. He is so slow. You try to explain something to him, and you feel like you are beating your head against a wall. Simple things like instructions. My daughter, somewhat the perfectionist, is almost always the last one taking a test or writing assignments at school. But, she will often get the best grade in the class. Unfortunately, she worries that this means she is slow like her father, not seeing that if she just whipped through things and didn't get as good a grade, she would be just like the rest of the kids.
My kids are embarrassed to take their friends over there. They are just now choosing to spend all holidays with me instead of them. X's wife gets ticked off and doesn't understand why. I just smile real big deep down inside.
You wrote, "she whines and plays 'hurt little girl' when this is HER choice"
I responded, "Barf".
Teri,
Thanks for the new and useful term. Trailer court trash is old, and.....trashy. The Jerry Springer Family has a nice stinger in it. I'll be using it.
Time will tell with the ow and the X. I see a horrific adulterous beginning resulting in two rough divorces, several kids involved, pot headedness, and alcoholism as potential problems for them. What do you all think?
This message has been edited by WRRW on May 1, 2004 11:59 AM This message has been edited by WRRW on May 1, 2004 11:58 AM
My wife will eventually come to realize her part in our failure, and never confess or admit it to me. But she will make the necessary changes in herself, and go on to a successful and rewarding second marriage...one that with appropriate effort, she could have had with me.
I know myself well enough that I would be angry and hurt at those circumstances, angry and hurt enough that I could not wish her well or be happy for her progress and happiness. I feel as if the ONE thing...the ONLY thing...she really owes me is to admit that she knows she did a lot wrong by stonewalling instead of engaging.
I just put a name to this in my talks with my pastor, and realistically, I know that what I want will never come...it didn't come when it SHOULD have, and whether it comes later or not, it'll be something for me to be upset about.
So I'll work hard on disconnecting and accepting that her character is flawed in a way that doesn't permit her to own up to what she was responsible for in our marriage's failure: her failure to engage, to clarify, and to deal in some ongoing constructive way with deep and difficult issues.
This is the stage provoking the latest bit of anger (and the hurt underneath it). I hope that's the last unexpected hump on the rollercoaster, and after that the ride will slow to a stop and I'll get off.
She will NOT change when she gets with another person. You will see. She is who she is. Some things may change. But the basic crappy stuff you have dealt with all these years will not. For example, my X hardly ever worked. Now he works and makes good money when he does. But, he only works long enough to pay for what he wants to, then takes off on a hunting trip for months at a time. He doesn't pay for even food for his wife. No joke. Basically, he hasn't changed. At those emotional dealings - same stuff, same person.
"My wife will eventually come to realize her part in our failure, and never confess or admit it to me. But she will make the necessary changes in herself, and go on to a successful and rewarding second marriage...one that with appropriate effort, she could have had with me."
Chris--I've said these exact same things to other people. I've said what if my H never has another A with someone else when he marries, then won't need to lie about it and everything else because of his guilt. I do get the feeling that he was not planning on any more affairs after I caught him even though he was still not telling me about all of them. I think he cried enough about it and blamed himself for everything right after I caught him and it seemed truly remorseful. Now I also get the feeling that he may have learned by that. Who the heck really knows. I don't, however, think he can completely stop looking at pornography and to an addict that is really bad. I do think it will take longer for someone else to find out though because I'm willing to bet that he'll hide it very well like he did to me. He won't have a bad relationship until his spouse gets to know him really well which is kind of sad for whoever gets in his life next.
I'm wishing you a good, happy weekend. We WILL get through this okay!
My wife will eventually come to realize her part in our failure, and never confess or admit it to me. But she will make the necessary changes in herself, and go on to a successful and rewarding second marriage...one that with appropriate effort, she could have had with me.
I know myself well enough that I would be angry and hurt at those circumstances, angry and hurt enough that I could not wish her well or be happy for her progress
I have had that fear for a long time. I think it's what has made me stick around so long, hoping he would change for us, knowing it would be awful to see him ride off into the sunset with someone else.
I'm just sort of getting over that. He's killing any love by hiding, not talking, feeling powerless - being depressed.
"...and never confess or admit it to me. But she will make the necessary changes in herself, and go on to a successful and rewarding second marriage...one that with appropriate effort, she could have had with me."
yup, me too! oh this one stings and is soooo hard because on one hand you don't want to be wishing bad things yet on the other... it seems like it was YOU who was the problem which further justifies their affair.
I remember when reading 'not just friends' about deciding to stay or not, the clincher being was it a behaviour or a glitch. think glitch people get back on track rather quickly whereas when it's an innate behaviour problem, you get the hemming and hawing, ambivalence and inability to see their part in it, little or no remorse. it's who they are so they can't separate their behaviour from themselves.
re: "But she will make the necessary changes in herself, and go on to a successful and rewarding second marriage...one that with appropriate effort, she could have had with me.
I know myself well enough that I would be angry and hurt at those circumstances,...."
This fear is the fear of ultimate rejection, and it HURTS LIKE HELL. It's a fear that yes, the unrepentant spouse is ABLE and WILLING to put forth the effort to make a relationship work, just not with us. Not with us after we have given them EVERYTHING we have, all our strength, all of our acceptance, all of our tears...everything. But no, they decide that, after they've peered into your soul, watched you writhe, sob and throw up....they have decided that .... you... are....not ....worth it. THAT is this fear, and it is a hu-uge one.
Still, the issue is about THEM, not us. It is about what THEY value, not OUR inherent value. IMO this truth has got to sink deep in your soul.
Count me in on the "family background horror stories". Wouldn't it be spooky if your partner was as crazy as all get out but had no "family background horror stories"? That would make things quite a bit more difficult. In my case, I always marvelled at the way that my w seemed to have beat the odds, escaped unscathed, and found a way to keep it together in spite of the mess that her siblings and parents had made of their own lives.
>>The way of determining that it was a "mistake" is that it was the first time and/or it was never repeated after discovery<<
I still believe that one of the biggest gap in the self-help literature on affairs is the chapter on "ways of determining if he/she will ever get it" (or "ways of determining if it was a 'mistake'"). Perhaps Mira Kirshenbaum has already done the job with her book "Too good to leave, Too bad to stay" but at some point we really ought to come up with our own list of "ways". The "family background horror story", for example, seems to be an important clue.
Perhaps another important clue is how quickly the unfaithful partner (a) recognizes the extent and depth of the devastation and (b) develops their own action plan to begin to deal with it (rather than begrudgingly and half-heartedly getting a start on one or two of the hurt partner's demands). When I look back, the only "plan" that my STBX ever seemed to put into action was the "Affair? What affair? Yaknow, you look awfully depressed. You should really get some help" plan.
>>It's a fear that yes, the unrepentant spouse is ABLE and WILLING to put forth the effort to make a relationship work, just not with us. Not with us after we have given them EVERYTHING we have, all our strength, all of our acceptance, all of our tears...everything. But no, they decide that, after they've peered into your soul, watched you writhe, sob and throw up....they have decided that .... you... are....not ....worth it. THAT is this fear, and it is a hu-uge one.<<
Well said. My ex married his mistress less than a year after our divorce. According to the kids, he's a great father and treats his second wife like a Queen.
He was tremendously emotionally abusive in this household. The impact on my daughter has lasting effects. The impact of the fracturing of our family has caused my young son to turn from a nature of joy to seething anger.
And I made many sacrifices to "relieve his stress" such as staying at home, and as a middle-aged woman, I've had to start over at the bottom professionally. At least, before I stayed home to cater to him, I finished a master's degree, that's my saving grace now.
I was very supportive, understanding, and kind. But I differ with one part of the statement above -- I don't believe that he peered into my soul. Quite the opposite, the interpretation was his filter. He did not see me as a separate, detached individual to himself. He did not treat my opinions, feelings, or acts as valid and worthy.
And that's why, he threatened me continuously that he would leave if I ever expressed hurt or anger at his affair. Well, guess what, I held back and simply listened. He left anyway.
Did he ever act out his emotional abuse/controlling behavior around the kids at first?
Were you like me, trying to present a "united front" to the kids, with your spouse taking full advantage of your attempts to keep disagreements private? I remember you writing that when you finally got assertive, that was when he started in on the kids.
Everyone says "kids just know". Well, they DON'T know if the parents keep it behind closed doors...and that's where emotional abuse begins, in private. I guess I'm suggesting that it takes awhile even for it to get to the level that the kids sense.
In those earlier "vague discomfort" years, where your inner alarm was going off saying "something is NOT right", the kids wouldn't necessarily have noticed anything. So I wouldn't put a lot of stock in what the kids say. In the honeymoon years, the "emotionally overfunctioning" spouse in the relationship doesn't yet have the full sense that their partner is really just a taker. Wife #2 just hasn't gotten tired of giving without receiving yet.
It was very much private, behind closed doors. He acted very differently at church, for example, than home. He was a prayer leader, laying hands on people at the altar. At home, he was cruel. I even went to the minister and pleaded for help, telling of the "split" between his church persona and his home persona. The answer I got was "that's common." And the minister said they could pray with me, but they could not change him. That was four months before the affair.
When he treated me badly, I would talk to him in private. When I disagreed with how he treated the children, I would ask him to step into our bedroom -- but I chose my "opinions" carefully. I had learned long ago that his response would be to not participate in our family life for three days as punishment to me for disagreeing. And then I'd try to speak to him when he was "better" -- but then the events meant nothing to him.
The final year, leading up to the consummated affair, was filled with his emotional abuse, anger, irritability, and two failed attempts with two other women (who later came to me and told me he had been inappropriate with them -- so how many others did he rub up against?). It was particularly during this year that I challenged him. He was very bad to me. We would sit in our adult Sunday School class and I'd lean forward to contribute to the discussion --- he would press his hand on my shoulder and whisper in my ear, "You've talked too much already," or "No one wants to hear what you say." I was even at a business meeting with his boss and his best friend -- hoping to get a short-term consulting assignment and a) he wouldn't get me lunch, saying I was five minutes late and the place was too crowded, b) when I began my proposal, he interrupted me and declared that he was the one who knew what's what -- a total cut. I remember speaking to him later that night in our bathroom and saying that he mistreated me in a business discussion and requesting that he give an explanation to his boss. I didn't get the consulting assignment.
The woman he married is much younger than him. She's never been married before or had any kids. It is true that she is probably giving and giving -- and he probably is now, too. But he truly hasn't dealt with his issues. It will only be a matter of time before he acts selfishly. But he is subtle. Like me, I assume she'll have a nagging, vague feeling for a long, long time. After she has her two children with him (he'll be in his 50s), she won't be able to lay her finger on it. But she'll think, as I did, he's steady -- he's never sick and he gets up and goes to work at his six-figure income job every day.
I guess you see my point. It'll be a while before your kids see him mistreat her, if ever.
If he really hasn't dealt with his issues there are two possibilities.
1. The new wife may have come from a background where your XH's behavior is considered "normal". She may never truly realize any ill effect of it, if she was raised in such a family. Or,
2. The vague gnawing will start, and someday she will put it all together.
I guess there will probably always be a part of me morbidly interested in whether justice is served in my wife's life eventually, but I probably won't have the satisfaction of knowing or seeing it.
I may know if she "figures out" it was about him, not me -- if the kids are still involved with their Dad in a meaningful way 20-30 years out. I don't ask them questions about what they see at her house, but they volunteer information once in a great while.
I've thought about it, though -- When will she catch on? For me...it was an extreme...my daughter was severely affected by her father's emotional abuse to the point where I had to find a psychiatrist and a therapist to treat her. That's when I drew that boundary, "You have to get help. If I have to choose between our daughter or you, I will choose our daughter."
And by the way, where I live Child Protective Services is worthless. They would not write him up because it was "only" emotional abuse. So he has full custody rights.
However, the new wife protects my daughter from my ex's moods and temper. I hope she remains a "valid" voice with my ex. That's the worse part of divorce -- the person your ex winds up with can either be someone who protects your child or destroys your child. My brother's second wife is very mean to his daughter from his first marriage -- very controlling to the point of dictating how she should precisely fold her dirty underwear -- plus she makes disparaging comments about my niece's mother. Mind you, she met my brother four years after his divorce.
As to the new wife, because my husband travels for his job and so do I, there will be times she'll wind up taking care of our children. I figure that's her price to pay for getting involved with a married man.
<<According to the kids, he's a great father and treats his second wife like a Queen.>>
<<However, the new wife protects my daughter from my ex's moods and temper.>>
There is major CONTRADICTION here.
If he is such a great father, why is she protecting the daughter from him? His moods and temper? That doesn't sound like he treats her like a queen. Maybe he puts on a front before the kids and others, just like he did with you.
Same person, same garbage.
Glad for you that you are out of that hell. My God. I thought my X was bad.
"Like me, I assume she'll have a nagging, vague feeling for a long, long time. After she has her two children with him (he'll be in his 50s), she won't be able to lay her finger on it. But she'll think, as I did, he's steady -- he's never sick and he gets up and goes to work at his six-figure income job every day."
You know I really do wonder if (and I'm not generalizing here because not all men are like that, I've seen you on the site) sometimes success is what drives our men away from us? My H is also very successful in his career. Do you think that some men start to think they are something special because of their success on the job and that is why they give in so easily if they have some sort of emotional abuse or addictive type behavior. They are less likely to change it because of their success? I mean, they think they don't have anything wrong with them because they are successful in their jobs so why does my spouse think there is something wrong with me? I really think that is the case with my H. That and extreme selfishness.
This message has been edited by hurt288 on May 3, 2004 12:10 PM
An explanation, not an excuse...and maybe this doesn't work in your case or in any case of a cheatin' husband. I intend this as a general statement about men who do well in their work.
I can categorically say that when I was most successful in my career, I most wanted respect and admiration for my accomplishments...and I wanted my wife to understand that it was for her and our family and not for me. A successful man can't necessarily punch the clock for 40 hours, and he may be working longer hours to maintain his success. That can start to look selfish to his wife. (It did to mine.)
I don't particularly think it's selfish for a successful man to work extra-hard for his family and then want respect and admiration. I think it's selfish if the man turns outside his marriage, though.
It is not uncommon for a successful man to get the attention of women he works with. If she makes the "right" noises ("you're so dynamic" is one I heard once), he will be drawn to her. If he doesn't have the right internal brakes, he'll be drawn right to her for lunch, dinner, and extracurricular meetings.
Now, I know this might look or seem like fingerpointing, but it is not. I think a couple can get through situations like this if they communicate AND if the more successful spouse has some appropriate limits in place.
First of all, I think the definition of the OW is needy, greedy, and selfish. The OW knew he was married with two young children -- one that was under treatment for a chronic illness.
As to the greed, he was the second highest paid person in the company. She thought, "That money will be mine." She got pissed as hell when she found out that he had to pay alimony to me for a couple of years.
When all hell broke loose, I had to leave my children in the care of an old friend while I saw a therapist, attorney...I assembled my "support team" very quickly. My friend's husband had worked with my husband 13 years earlier over a period of three years or so. I had asked the whole family to come to dinner over the years, but she would nearly always negotiate an afterschool playdate instead. My friend's husband said to me, "Didn't you wonder why I only came to your house twice for dinner in the past 10 years? I never liked your husband. He's arrogant. He went around work like he was smarter than everyone else."
So the answer, Charlie, to the infidelity/successful man question is arrogance that breeds entitlement.
"Do you think that some men start to think they are something special because of their success on the job and that is why they give in so easily if they have some sort of emotional abuse or addictive type behavior?"
I've experienced this directly, only opposite gender. In this case my W's success brought out underlying 'entitled pattern' behavior that led to the A. See site below for more.
Someone who has emotional dysregulation disorder (AKA Borderline) cannot control the emotions emanating out of such experiences AND the emotions are often inappropriate.
"Now, I know this might look or seem like fingerpointing, but it is not. I think a couple can get through situations like this if they communicate AND if the more successful spouse has some appropriate limits in place."
I know what your trying to say. You see, my H didn't have any appropriate limits in place. He was away from home all the time because of his job, when he was home he worked really late hours and then when he was actually inside our house all he wanted to do was watch TV or play games on his computer. I didn't mind an hour or so but he would stay up there until I got mad. He also drank every single night, not a lot but 2 to 3 drinks every night. My counselor said that is not normal behavior. If he was gone so much for his job he should have prioritized family when he was home. She thinks that its possibly because of his addiction, cheating, and guilt all those years that maybe he was getting away so much to get away from the guilt and shame he was feeling. He was also trying to numb his pain with alcohol. I told her he wouldn't get drunk but she said it didn't matter, that was too much drinking. I agree with her but H would always justify why it was okay. Also his mom was controlling and it's also likely he was turning me into mom by doing things I hated and then avoiding like he did her. His whole family trys to avoid disagreement with her by staying away from her in the same household. My H spent 3 hours on his computer making music CD's the night before he left for 6 months. Do you think that is excessive?
Maybe it has nothing to do with his job really, he just simply has problems he needs to get help with. I need to remember that even unsuccessful people have addictions too. My H just used his job to hide away from his problems but if he hadn't had that busy job, he would have just spent more time avoiding at home anyway???
For a long time, one of my wife's major complaints was that I spent too much time and energy on work and not enough time and energy on our marriage and family. One of our marriage counselors suggested that I worked excessively because I was trying to avoid "problems in our marriage". She also suggested that we both drank heavily for the same reason. In fact, now that I think about it, that marriage counselor took the view that my wife's affair, my overwork, and our heavy drinking were all symptoms of underlying "problems in our marriage". At one point, she suggested that we were smart enough to figure out what those "underlying problems" were. She was definitely wrong about the last part.
Another marriage counselor seemed to view things a little differently. He believed that it is difficult to maintain a strong marriage under the pressure of two demanding jobs and raising a family. Jobs and raising kids simply leave little alone time for a couple and they just "drift apart".
I've thought about all of this alot but haven't come up with any great insights. Since the discovery of my wife's affair, I've had very little interest in my job. With the benefit of hindsight, I haven't been able to sort out why I worked so hard. I liked my job, that's for sure. I liked the recognition that I got for doing it well but I would have liked it even if I didn't get much recognition for doing it. I don't see how I can know how much I was motivated by personal ambition and how much of I was motivated by altruism - doing it for the financial security of the family. The only thing that seems clear cut to me is that it is almost impossible to figure out what my "true" motivation was.
Charlie...can I add that being married to a man who has issues of self-esteem very sucessful in the business community...he was faithful at home because he set limits...didn't have anything (meaning ONS's) to do with employees at his business. When he traveled he was "lonely" so he had ONS's pattern that started,when angry at me for smoking, not having the house perfect, being heavy, (was a size 14) 5'8" ....it was all my fault so he told me...gave up smoking 18 yrs ago...
He is ADD...addictive behavior concerning work...really gets into projects it is why he was so sucessful...he worked long hours but was there for family things that were important...
When he retired no longer had the positive feedback from the work place that told him he was wonderful...I couldn't fill the void....A with needy selfish W who saw a patsy who had money and used him...
With a lot of MC we are getting these issues worked on and learning to communicate with each other...the WS has to want to change behavior and deal with issues that cause bad patterns of behavior...right now we are trying to teach H to relax...he doesn't know how to do that..he has to be active all the time.
Just my thoughts...
Just adding that I agree with Chris that long hours at work don't affect family life really...we realized that he was doing a job and we were the the ones who benifited from his efforts...I don't think my kids ever felt unloved or missed dad because he was always there for them...they turned out to be great!!!!
My H needed the praise he recieved at work that was his addiction fix...and he recieved a lot of praise...he needed to be appreciated and was...
He is a great person who didn't know how to keep his pants on...
Pat
This message has been edited by dancin-gal on May 4, 2004 11:03 AM
