I don’t know if this is codependency rearing its ugly head again, or if this is just me being a mother but....
I still feel bad for my children. My little 4 yr old girl said to the babysitter “when I grow up, I’m going to marry [brother’s name]. And Mommy’s going to marry Daddy.”
Ugh. Even tho he left when she was one yr old, she still knows how things are supposed to be.
I’m getting along fine with my healing except when it comes to them. The way that he blew them off and how he continues to do so really angers me.
Like this:
This past weekend (Fri p.m. thru Sun. a.m.) was the ex’s weekend w the children. My son and I have been trying to put a report together for his 2nd grade class of our recent trip to to Niagara Falls. Well, this past weekend was really the last time I’d have to help him with it. When the ex came to pick them up, I was thinking out loud and asked the both of them (my son and the ex), if they would like to do it together. I had all the materials, info, postcards, posterboard, etc., ready. All they’d have to do is put it together ... I thought it might be a nice project for them. They both agreed.
Well....
Sunday a.m., the ex brings them home....with one postcard taped to the middle of the posterboard. That’s it. The ex said that our son was “really tired” at 10:30 p.m. Sat. night when they started working on it. Uh, duh. Apparently they played all day -- PC games and a movie. And I find out also that that night the ex was watching “The Terminator” which really upset my son, because he knows he’s not supposed to watch that stuff. He offered all this info to me-- he said “Mom, I tried not to watch, but [my 4 yr old daughter] was watching a lot of it.”
UGH!! This is a man who, a few months ago, didn’t even know what grade his son was in. It’s always about him—what HE feels like doing. He’ll play with the children, as long at it’s something HE likes to do.
It wouldn’t have bothered me so much if it didn’t bother my son so much. He came home rather angry. He and I ended up putting together a great report last night, and he just told me on the phone that it went well at school.
ugh. I knew, right after the words left my mouth (about--would you two like to do this together?) that I might be getting into some expectations and then disappointment. I very rarely suggest anything for the ex and our son to do together because our son's been disappointed by him so much in the past. I happened to be thinking out loud this time and didn't catch myself.
I just wish my children didn't have to live thru all this. How, how can a man be so self-absorbed??
I know I'm venting. It feels good. :-[]
Jean
Edited to add: I feel responsible because I married the man! After 6 yrs of dating. As Dr. Phil says, "What the hell was I thinking?" I actually really believed that he'd make a good father....
This message has been edited by Jean150 on Jun 1, 2004 5:42 PM
Look I know how you feel. I left my HINO one task to do yesterday -- to get his son dressed for a group picture with his dance studio. I gave him detailed and specific instructions about where to find the outfit.
He said "Yeah, yeah don't worry about it. I won't forget." Un-huh. Heard that one before. Wouldn't you know it at 5PM (which btw is the time they should have been dressed and LEAVING) I get a frantic call from my daughter about where to find her brother's outfit. I should have known.
Two weeks ago I told him that I don't care how he did it, he had to come up with $560 to cover a monthly bill for the kids' dance classes. "Sure, of course. Don't worry about it." Okay...its June 1 he hasn't covered it. And he wanted ME to call the studio and tell them to hold on to the cheque a few days. No friggin way, I told him -- that's your job.
The thing is I expect him to let me down -- he's done that many times but when he lets his kids down it burns me up.
You know I get you regarding I should have known better when I married him. I think that in the "fog" of a loving relationship we see these weaknesses and we tell ourselves "Well, nobody's perfect. I can live with these faults." And I'd say that this is a pretty common outlook in marriage. Would I have continued to put up with this behaviour if he had remained committed and faithful towards our marriage? Yeah, I probably would have. I'm not perfect either. You make these sorts of trade-offs.
But when things go sour in a relationship, everything that was wrong is just magnified and all those things we were willing to support seem like huge issues all of a sudden.
So don't beat yourself up Jean. You made the decision that pretty much everyone getting married makes -- for better or worse, warts and all.
re: "Would I have continued to put up with this behaviour if he had remained committed and faithful towards our marriage? Yeah, I probably would have. I'm not perfect either. You make these sorts of trade-offs."
yep. and I did put up with a lot. But that line of disrespect and his apathy was crossed just too many times....let alone his infidelity. The infidelity was just a symptom of his selfishness, anger and immaturity that permeated our marriage.
which again, leads me back to the question "What the hell was I thinking?" I put up with too much in our relationship even before we got married. It never occurred to me that I deserved better, now that I see with 20/20 hindsight. I was grateful for his love, but he was selfish back then, too; I was usually pursuing him, apologizing for whatever I could whenever he withdrew emotionally because he was mad.
It's funny--and Chris would probably appreciate this -- the better I became at enforcing my own boundaries in a respectful and effective way, the angrier and more withdrawn he became. It was a big power play to him, unfortunately, and I had fallen for it for years. So I take responsibility for this part, and because I was part of this ugly "dance" my two children must grow up w/ divorced parents.
that's what I'm mad about. But I know I need to let it go, as there's nothing to do now but go forward. And usually that's what I do.
Re: How do I not feel responsible for the situation they’re in?
June 1 2004, 7:18 PM
Jane, wow. You made some really good points. You are exactly right. When things change they really change.
Jean, I feel your pain. My oldest is now 23. I STILL feel that guilt that you are talking about. I don't think it will ever go away. But, I am learning to live with it and not be so hard on myself. Guilt is a horrible thing. My C has been trying to help me with it for 10 yrs and it wasn't until this A, when I kept blaming myself for it, that I was finally able to understand what he was saying. I can't remember quite how he put it but the understanding is there. He basically said that none of us are perfect. None of our parents are perfect, none of us will be perfect parents. But most of us do the best we can.
Yeah, we made some huge mistakes when we married those jerks. Real doozies if you ask me. But we sure didn't intend to hurt our children when we did it. Our hearts are in the right place. All of us are dealt different lots in life. It's up to us how we choose to handle them and it's going to be up to our children how they handle theirs. All we can do now is to do the best we can to help them grow. Be there for them, set examples etc.
We didn't fall off the face of the earth because of the mistakes our parents made. Our kids won't either.
It doesn't make it hurt any less, I know, but it could be worse. They could have TWO jerks for parents.
Jean, you are a good mom. That is what will get them through.
What's most tiring about being a single mom is that it all rests on me.... I make all the decisions, the tone and character of the home all rests on me, all the time.
Sometimes I wish I had a mom I could lean on.
I do have a mother, but she's emotionally unavailable....has been as long as I remember, even tho I know she loves me. I'm thinking that's one reason why I put up with my H's emotional withdrawal--that was "normal" for me to experience. This makes me think--what am I teaching my children as "normal?" It's a sobering thought. I don't want them to put up with what I put up with.
I'm not really second-guessing myself. I just get tired.
This is a whack and then a hug. There is no doubt in my mind that you are a good mom. My God Jean. Look what you are up against. You are teaching your kids that nothing can hold you back. You are teaching them that no matter what, they need to continue to put one foot in front of the other and 'keep on truckin.' You are teaching them that they can win against all odds.
I have 4 daughters, 20, 18, 17 and 5 and 1 son, 23. My mom was an alcoholic so I didn't have her either. I used to think that she was so horrible until my kids turned into teenagers. And then life slapped me upside my head and I realized that I had a very good mom. She just happened to have a pretty bad drinking problem. We had no contact at all until a few years before she died. Her brother notified us that she had cancer and suddenly I realized how important she really was to me. We lived on opposite sides of the country so we got close by phone and I got to see her once before she died. God I miss her. I had the opportunity to learn why she did some things that I didn't understand. Boy was it a slap in the face. I had no idea the hell she went through to protect me.
Jean, what makes a good mom? Do they have to be perfect? I have never met a perfect mom, have you? To me, a good mom teaches you right from wrong, feeds you healthy food, lets you pig out on junk food once in awhile, plays with you and most important of all, she loves you, with all her heart. What more can you ask for? I'm sure I'll think up all sorts of other things later but you get my point.
Jean, you are the best mom that you can be. That's all anyone can ask for. That's all you can do.
My children are now teaching me. Especially after Dday. They will tell me, "Mom, you taught us not to put up with that crap so why do you?" I'll ask them how they figured this or that out and they'll tell me that that's what I taught them. That's how I brought them up.
We try to drill things into their heads to protect them and then they go and do some pretty stupid things. (You will understand exactly what I'm talking about when they become teenagers) You will think that nothing you have said has gotten through to them. And you'll worry like crazy about the bad influence that your messed up X has set for them. But in the end, you will find that they really do listen to you and that you really do get through to them. It's just that they have to live it for themselves. They have to make their own mistakes and figure it out on their own. And sometimes they follow in their stupid mother's footsteps (referring to myself here) and then you have to watch them learn the same lessons that you tried to protect them from. But it's their right to do so.
OK, I've yacked long enough.
Jean, Jean. I want to slap you upside the head and hug you too.
YOU ARE A GOOD MOTHER!
We can tell by your posts. We can feel it from your heart. Don't ever forget that.
I struggle with the "Am I a good mom" question all the time -- pre-affair, post-affair and now. Actually I struggle with the fact that I am trying to live in this pseudo-relationship for the sake of my kids and yet I feel I may not be giving the right message by doing so. I have no clue if I am making the right decisions on their behalf.
All I know is this: I love my kids to death. My entire life revolves around them and their health, well-being, education, entertainment etc etc. And, unlike my HINO who is also a very loving father, I back that up in every way. I back it up with action and money and the decisions I have made in my career. My HINO loves his kids to distraction and would go to the ends of the earth for them but...he still is quite selfish at heart and while he will meet their needs when they are pointed out to him, he won't make the effort to truly understand those needs.
I look at my own mom -- she isn't perfect. She is emotionally high-strung, over-anxious, and currently at this point in her life, quite absorbed in her own health issues and struggles. She did her best raising my sister and I. And yet her tendency to over-protect us and shelter us from the "world" I think was a HUGE factor in my decision to marry my H. She didn't like him and thought I could do better. She was absolutely right and yet, because she was so controlling and I was so anxious to get away from her grasp, I married my H in spite of her protestations.
But can I blame her entirely? No. I should have found another way to break free from mom's apron strings. She did her best. And I am doing my best. And I'm going to make wrong decisions raising my kids and so are you and you know what? They'll be okay because you love them and the fact that you even care enough to ask these questions demonstrates how much you care about being a good parent.
Reading through this thread, I was struck by how similar our stories are:
Emotionally unavailable mothers. (Mine is the poster child for NPD, LOL!)
Emotionally unavailable spouses who cheated.
HINOs or Xs who are good fathers when they want to be or when it is convenient.
Over-compensating for our children's well-being because of the parental situation.
I'm not a psychological professional by any means but am I the only one who has talked to their therapist about repeatedly trying to fix their childhood through adult actions? I always feel like I'm the embodiment of "those who not remember history are doomed to repeat it". It is this very observation that makes me think I will never marry again.
>>How do I not feel responsible for the situation they’re in?<<
This has been a real struggle for me too - it was probably a big part of the reason that I waited almost four years before getting serious about divorce. I definitely fell victim to the "co-dependency" thing in the original sense of the word - to describe people who live with an alcoholic. For the better part of three years I spent almost every waking moment trying to figure out how to get my wife to change (stop lying, stop denying the affair, talk to me about it, etc.).
A couple of weeks ago I found out that my w had started drinking again and our two boys (14 and 17) have been living with me ever since. Jenny has told me many times that she is planning to move and has been looking for a job a couple of thousand miles away. A couple of days ago, she had the boys over to the house for the first time in two weeks. She told the boys that she is going to get help but that she can't tell them when she will be able to see them again because her work schedule is too crazy.
I'm trying hard to stay out of her bidness. If she wants to move two thousand miles, that's her choice. If the boys can't visit her on some kind of regular schedule, that's also her choice. Obviously, I'm not happy about the impact those kinds of things on our kids and I'm not happy that she doesn't appear to be taking them into account when she makes those decisions.
On the other hand, I've seen first-hand what happens to my kids when I spend alot of my energy trying to get my w to "see the light". I have less energy for my kids. I have less energy available for getting my own life (which is still pretty messy at times) back together (which means that I have less energy for my kids also). I'm also sending them the message that I'm willing to take some responsibility for their mother's behavior which could mean that they are also partly responsible for her behavior and maybe even for my behavior too. It all gets very confusing very quickly but if they are anything like most children of alcoholics, they are confused enough about who is responsible for what, without my adding to the confusion.
It's a struggle to let my w do things her own way. Last week, I started asking the boys to call their mom. The eldest said "yeah, okay, but why hasn't she called us?". Good question (I said to myself) but I covered for her - I explained that she was probably embarrassed, guilty, ashamed. I know that was a mistake but I just can't seem to help myself sometimes.
By the way, in the Encyclopedia Brittanica, my wife's mother's portrait appears above the caption "emotionally unavailable".
>> It was a big power play to him, unfortunately, and I had fallen for it for years. So I take responsibility for this part, and because I was part of this ugly "dance" my two children must grow up w/ divorced parents.<<
When we think we're acting out love, it's amazing the "power over" we give away to someone who does not deserve to have it.
Re: How do I not feel responsible for the situation they’re in?
June 2 2004, 8:40 PM
Jean, how do you not feel responsible? By telling yourself you're not.
Your exH is a screwup, and that's not your fault.
Time after time, you create opportunities for your children, and he lets them down, not you. Even after he let them down, you rose like a phoenix from the ashes.
I think as mothers, we tend to make ourselves feel guilty. Don't.
Are you a great mother? Do you do all that you can to communicate and demonstrate love? Do you more than help with their education and health?
YES YES YES.
So how can you be letting them down?
Don't forget that children need to be shown how not to be victims, how not to think they are trapped, but to stand up and take responsibility for the direction of their lives. And in your case, you are showing them that the direction and example in their lives is very important. How can that be letting them down? If you did everything to keep the marriage together legally, what is that teaching them? That their emotional happiness and wellbeing is second to a piece of paper? Their father didn't have that opinion (neither did my H). So f*** that as an example of what marriage is all about.
You are showing them about principles. You are showing them about commitment instead of fear. You are showing them that your love for them wins out over pleasing yourself. You are doing a great job. For that, you have NOTHING to feel guilty about. Also, the children will be old enough one day to figure this out for themselves. They'll remember who helped them with a tough project, who showed up on display day, who saw the teacher with an appointment to check on their progress, who was there for them day in and day out.
Teri, thanks for the whack and the hug. When I get really tired w/ the fibro, I tend to get a bit discouraged. There's so much that I want to do that I just can't.
Yeah, I do love my mom. She had a pretty lonely childhood; she hardly ever talks about it.
re: "My children are now teaching me." Mine, too. Isn't it amazing? It's true--if I didn't marry their father, I wouldn't have them, and they are SO COOL! They teach me a lot, and being their mother teaches me a lot, and I thank God all the time that I have them.
Jane, re: "They'll be okay because you love them..." I hope so, Jane. I believe so.
Misha, re: "...am I the only one who has talked to their therapist about repeatedly trying to fix their childhood through adult actions?" That's like what my counselor said above. I don't know if I want to marry again, either. I'm content being single, but the fact that I may not want to marry again makes me feel like I'm wierd. I would like to grow old with someone. I watch my parents in their marriage of 54 years and think that that would be nice--to be with someone who knows you that well and continues to love you anyhow.
Bart, re: "If the boys can't visit her on some kind of regular schedule, that's also her choice. Obviously, I'm not happy about the impact those kinds of things on our kids and I'm not happy that she doesn't appear to be taking them into account when she makes those decisions." I'm sorry for your sons. Man, what can she be thinking?
Bart, Re: >>The eldest said "yeah, okay, but why hasn't she called us?". Good question (I said to myself) but I covered for her - I explained that she was probably embarrassed, guilty, ashamed. I know that was a mistake but I just can't seem to help myself sometimes.<< Perhaps you could simply say "I don't know...why don't you ask her?" That way your sons direct their disappointment directly to their mother, where it should be. That's one thing I did from the beginning--direct my son's questions about his father directly to his father. It made the ex real uncomfortable, but too bad. He SHOULD be uncomfortable--he was making bad, selfish choices. I never put it to my son that way tho. I never tried to explain away his father. I just told him that his father didn't want to be married to me anymore. And that I wish he hadn't made that decision, but he did.
Teri, re "Wow, you touched on something I hadn't thought of. When they see us trying to fix another person, they may think it's their job also. Great point!" That's scary, isn't it? It's amazing the lessons children learn from us even when we don't even realize we're teaching.
Chris, re >>When we think we're acting out love, it's amazing the "power over" we give away to someone who does not deserve to have it.<<
Hmmmmm. Is it real love that is our motivation if we end up giving someone the "power over" us? Or was it an unhealthy or unmet need in ourselves that we looked to our (former) spouses to fill for us? I realize now that right before we were engaged, when it was make it or break it concerning a future together, I believe I was trusting my husband-to-be more than I was trusting God or myself.
But you're right, Chris. He didn't deserve to have the "power over" me, and he didn't deserve my heart.
re: "Your exH is a screwup, and that's not your fault." Yeah, but I married the screwup. Occasionally I revisit what attracted me to him in the first place so that I know how to avoid that in the future.... If I am to have a future with any man. I know pretty much that I won't have a relationship until I lose some weight, anyway. I just can't seem to send out any "available" vibes when I'm feeling fat like this. But then again, staying fat is my way of staying "safe", I think. But I don't want to be a coward this way forever.
re: >>Don't forget that children need to be shown how not to be victims, how not to think they are trapped, but to stand up and take responsibility for the direction of their lives.... If you did everything to keep the marriage together legally, what is that teaching them? That their emotional happiness and wellbeing is second to a piece of paper?<< You are right, FR. Thank you.
And thanks to you and the rest for your vote of confidence. As I may have mentioned before, the fibromyalgia makes me tired and frustrated, because I want to do all sorts of things with my son and daughter. And so when I see how their father just blows off a school project with my son, it makes me doubly frustrated. You know, the second morning that we were at Niagara Falls, I literally couldn't even stand up straight! I was half-crawling around the hotel room. (I took a whole lotta Motrin, a hot shower, and extra rest, then I was ready to go again. And yes, it was worth it!)
Jean wrote >>That's one thing I did from the beginning--direct my son's questions about his father directly to his father<<
Sounds like a good way to go - I'll be trying to do the same - encouraging my sons to ask their mother the questions they have about why she does the things she does.
Bart -----> Ahem (he said, clearing his throat). What am I? Liverwurst?
No, my dear bart. You're a big hunk of guy who I greatly admire. When you posted the poem about not living quietly, I printed it out and put it up on my office wall. So I don't think you're Liverwurst.
OK, as PARENTS, we tend to make ourselves feel guilty (except for Jean's H and plenty of others). We even agonise over doing what's right and whether doing right is the right thing to do, lol.
I hate punishing my kids, like taking something off them or grounding them. The advice just rings so true that 'this will hurt me more than it hurts you'. It hurts a lot.
Jean, you might have married a screwup, but I bet you didn't know he was a screwup back then. I bet you thought he'd be a great Dad and H. And don't worry about the weight thing, OK? I'll lose it with you. Yesterday I bought a Susan Powter DVD and exercised WITH MODIFICATIONS (that's a Susan Powter term), but I kept moving the whole time. I started eating better today, and I'm going to change my life around. I'm out of work, but I'm going to set my life in a happier direction and look bloody fantastic while I do it. I'm going to walk my way to happiness. I've been in a glut. I'm sick of the glut. Now climbing out of the glut.
Here is a picture of me. I want to lose 25kg, which is about 55 pounds in your measurements I think.
FR
This message has been edited by FaceReality on Jun 3, 2004 12:11 AM This message has been edited by FaceReality on Jun 3, 2004 12:01 AM
Re: How do I not feel responsible for the situation they’re in?
June 3 2004, 12:17 AM
Thanks Misha. I am overweight, and luckily I seem to be able to 'carry it' OK, which isn't really true of anyone. I'm only fairly tiny at 5'2", but now you've seen the red hair, you know where the temper comes from.
Yep, that's my bathroom after it was renovated. You should have seen it before - shall I say - GROSS? I wanted it tiled to the ceiling so there wasn't any no-mans-land of paintwork required. The theme is greeny/blue and white with a huge corner bath and also a corner vanity. My H and father did it in April 2001. We're slowly getting there. So lets see a pic of you now, and anybody else who is reading. I've got tons I can show you.
Re: How do I not feel responsible for the situation they’re in?
June 3 2004, 11:05 AM
Wow FR
You are a nice looking gal and don't take that in a weird way LOL! Your hair color definitely explains some things :>) I'd post one but don't know how to make it smaller to fit in there. I tried a lawn one a long time ago and it didn't work!
Charlie
This message has been edited by hurt288 on Jun 3, 2004 11:06 AM
Re: How do I not feel responsible for the situation they’re in?
June 3 2004, 11:07 AM
Bart
"The eldest said "yeah, okay, but why hasn't she called us?". Good question (I said to myself) but I covered for her - I explained that she was probably embarrassed, guilty, ashamed. I know that was a mistake but I just can't seem to help myself sometimes.
By the way, in the Encyclopedia Brittanica, my wife's mother's portrait appears above the caption "emotionally unavailable". "
My youngest son was mad at his dad last night for not giving him desert because he wouldn't eat something dad made for dinner (he actually threw it up because it bothered him) and he came home and thought I was going to give him desert b/c dad wouldn't. I made sure that I set him straight right there and then telling him that dad was doing him a favor and trying to cook a good meal for him and that he should appreciate it instead of complain about it and that NO he couldn't have desert if dad said no. I think my son was trying to get between the two of us because he saw that I was upset with H earlier in the day. These situations with our kids can get real sloppy if we let them but I want things to be easier for my kids and if I had stuck up for my son and downed dad (which I never would have done before the divorce either) then I could see this big problem starting between his dad and him and I don't want him to be unhappy to see his dad. It is really hard trying to do the right thing when you are so angry yourself!!!
Also my H's mother could also be pictured in that Encyclopedia!
This message has been edited by hurt288 on Jun 3, 2004 9:38 PM This message has been edited by hurt288 on Jun 3, 2004 11:17 AM
Re: How do I not feel responsible for the situation they’re in?
June 4 2004, 8:10 AM
Yep, your right Chris. I actually called my H the next day and told him about the situation and that my son was mad at him. I told him I wouldn't ever bad mouth him and that I set my son straight. I guess I was making sure he knew so I would get the same in return. He says he wouldn't either. I hope that is true. Time will tell.
