I just saw that movie a couple of nights ago. (I have to wait til they come out on video/DVD). I always love Jack Nickolson's acting.

I can totally relate to Diane Keaton's character. (Her daughter was a little loopy, tho.) Except I wouldn't work with my ex.

I just don't know if I ever want to get married again, really. And this surprises me--me being a Christian, and all. See, because I really miss companionship and sex. I really wouldn't mind some sex. It's been since about Christmas 1998. Even back then it wasn't great, but it was something.

I've always maintained that I'd get married before I have sex again. After all, that's how I want to teach my children.

But now...getting married just seems like too much hubbub. I'm 38 years old. The vows with some man just wouldn't mean the same to me as they did the first time around. They ring hollow to me now. Is it my cynicism, end of innocence, or just not wanting to get burned again? Vows are just words...easily spoken, easily broken. I don't want to put my heart in the hands of some man who relies on his "feelings" to decide what to do....whether he "feels" like commiting to me after a time or "feels" like screwing around with someone else. And how would I know if I've got a man like that again?

I really wouldn't mind having a companion. But I don't know that I want him around all the time...anyone know what I mean? I don't want to have to worry about my companion treating my children well, or my children liking him. At the same time, I'd never marry someone who didn't love my children dearly.

I guess I'd like a man who has his own life, who wouldn't want to be with me constantly, but who would like to share some good meals, a hobby maybe, and some affection. Is that so bad to want? Honestly, I don't know if a man could put up with me, I feel so skittish. But, I would like the companionship. I've been separated since July 2001, divorced since last year.

Ugh.

Jean

maybe I just shouldn't watch these kinds of movies.

Jean

Hun, I'm going to be 40 in a month (!) and I know what you mean.

(And btw, I actually really liked that film. And I relate alot to Diane Keaton's dilemma..)

I'm still living with my HINO. We aren't divorced yet. But we will be as I'm not going to live this way forever so here's what I think.

I don't know if I will ever marry again. But I will find a companion who will share a casual relationship with me. I'm Catholic and not even divorce is "allowed" but I don't really care what the Pope or my priest says because they aren't living my life and they don't have the suffer the pain I suffer. They made their life decisions without any reference to me so why should I care what they think?

Of course it's okay to want a relationship. We're only half way thorough our lives!!! If I wanted to remain alone and celibate I would have enterred a nunnery and at least served humanity. But I didn't do that and I don't plan to lead the rest of my life that way. But marrying now would not ring true to me either. What are vows if I know they mean nothing in the end? And why marry with the thought that "this may not mean forever but let's get a few years out of it."? For what? To have another man rob me of every cent I made and every feeling of good will and love and romance and faith I have?

No way.

I'm with you Jean -- find a nice man with similar interests and his own life who I might see for dinner and travel with and yes, have sex with dammit(!), but not who becomes this semi-permanent, temporary part of my life.

Jean and Jane:

I know how you feel. I want companionship, but not a relationship. But I don't think I'm anywhere near healed enough for anything yet. I still feel almost dead inside or numb emotionally. In Kenny's thread, El describedhow I feel very well:

>>Then I tried to get the old me back, I could not. I have told my husband I will never love again as I once did. For a long time that bothered me. Now, I finally accept all of it.<<

I'm hoping I get the acceptance some day. I just don't think that after all the hurt and the blame and general bullsh** that was dumped on me by STBX can be easily "processed" or healed so that I can love again. I'm just trying to make new friends and that's hard enough. I just joined the local Parents Without Partners group and three(!!!) people, not members of the group, have said something like, "Oh, I know ____ and ____ met through them and they are married/living together/hooked up". I just go cold inside. I'm ambivalent about "hooking up". Everyone assumes that one must be looking to "hook up". Like you, I want the companionship, I want to be loved and because of the affair fallout, I want to be validated as LOVABLE. But another part of me is scared to death to ever let someone close to me again. Am I making sense?

I know I'll have to work this out my own way. I know that if I really wanted to, I could find someone to have sex with....we all know that's not the issue.

I know that for spiritual, emotional, and physical reasons that I want my children to wait.

Does anyone else want their children to wait until they're married to have sex? And so what if my children know that I've not waited? (I'm sure at some point when they're teenagers, they may ask. And I just feel hypocritical telling them to do one thing and me doing another.)

You know, I'm scared to develop a relationship with a man. I want one, but I'm scared. I'm afraid I'll feel alive again and he'll be so wonderful and I'll decide to have sex and then regret it later. Or things will get messy as they usually do and my children will have to endure their mother with another broken heart.

Is it worth the risk? I don't know. I've actually numbed ny sexuality for quite some time, but now I find its aspects popping up here and there, and I don't know what to do with it!! Often I would rather not have it. It seems like a cruel joke that God plays.

And even tho Chris tells me differently, I'm still skeptical that their are any men out their in my age bracket who are willing to wait til marriage. And with me maybe not even wanting to get married again, I'm in a real pickle.

maybe there's a nice rich widower out there who doesn't have these commitment fears who could win me over...yeah, but I probably have a better chance of getting struck by lightning (remember those stats about single women?).

well, I burned my hand really bad this a.m., and it hurts to type...& ice is dripping here.

Jean

re: "I want a lasting relationship next, but I want to find someone who will treat me really well and who loves my kids dearly too."

I would like that too. I don't want a casual relationship. But I'd like one where I don't feel suffocated or pressured physically.

My pickle is this: I'm really wary of another marriage and "vows," but for my sake and the sake of my children, I don't think I should have sex without it. So I'm wondering....do I swear off sex, do I "modify" my convictions, or do I live my life thinking one day I actually will find a "miracle man" who will actually want to marry me and thinks similarly??

I don't want to go thru another marriage ceremony...all those people--friends and family--witnessed our marriage vows the first time--they witnessed how trusting I was. How am I qualified to choose a good man this time? Love was supposed to last a lifetime the first time. So why go thru the ceremony a second time? The words would be the same, right? So how would I know he would stick by them? I guess one never knows. Well then, why make those promises--in public, even??

I want a man's companionship and affection, but I'm scared to death of the prospect.

Jean

Is this a "girls thread only" or can I chime right in?



I liked the movie, too.

It seems to me it was about people like us: afraid for various reasons to let someone get close again. (It wasn't just the Diane Keaton character who discovered that about herself, you know. The Nicholson character also put himself on the line, waaaay out there. He took a big emotional risk.)

And Jean, almost a year without a hug, a kiss, or getting naked has changed my mind. I could just about take what Jean and Jane have written and insert "woman" where they wrote "man". I'm in agreement with you and Jane, more or less. I DID wait until I was married to my boys' mother...so I've met that obligation. I ain't waitin' again. If it works out that I find mutual attraction with someone, then I'll just see where that leads. (Odds are it'll take me quite a while, just like it did the first two times around.)

But I won't be having overnight guests when my son is with me, nor will I be going out on dates while he sits home. My first and most important obligation for the next four years is him.

I have, though, signed up for an interesting class offered by the local university. The "classroom" is in the neighborhood mall. (First time since 1981 that I've been in a classroom.) I figure the only way to meet people is to get out and meet people with common interests.

Chris.

Yes--I meant to add earlier that Jack's character was taking just as much a risk if not more (because of his own personal demons) as Diane's character.

I have a question for you Chris--if you're not offended and willing to answer.... What did you tell/are going to tell your sons about sex and marriage? Do you tell them to wait? Do you think they'll ever ask you if you and a significant other (in the future) are "waiting"? If I didn't have children, I don't think this issue would be so hard for me. I know I miss sex. I miss being desired and feeling like a woman in the one way that sex makes me feel like one. But I also want to be authentic with my children--not to offer them any information, but to be able to answer them with discretion and yet with honesty.

My motto before I became a Christian was don't have sex with anyone unless you're prepared to have a baby--just in case that happens, and I only had sex with one man. After becoming a Christian I only had sex with my former H. But I feel really cheated on that. We hardly ever had sex. So now I want some!!! But not just sex. I want the "package"-- but I don't "need" a man like I thought I needed a man when I was younger. I'm not desparate--just wanting to share life's deep and affectionate pleasures. Eventually I would like to grow old with someone.

I think my convictions may be changing and I don't know if that's a good thing. Sex is still sacred to me...but do I need those marriage vows in order to give myself permission to enjoy it? Vows that are so easily thrown away? I don't know.

I do know that my hand has been on ice for more than 8 hours and it's still killing me, so I think I'm taking a trip to urgent care...but what can they do....perhaps give me some painkillers so I can sleep tonight. This burn is really ugly...

Jean

>>I have a question for you Chris--if you're not offended and willing to answer.... What did you tell/are going to tell your sons about sex and marriage? Do you tell them to wait? Do you think they'll ever ask you if you and a significant other (in the future) are "waiting"?<<

I'll admit to not being very good in this department. "Those" talks have always scared the stuffing out of me. I avoid lecturing, but it isn't much of a talk, either. I usually jokingly point out that my mother was a grandmother at 50 and I'm not interested in having the same thing happen to me.

I have sons, Jean. I bet they'll assume something is going on even if it isn't. Son#1 is off to college this fall, so we'll not be in each others' daily lives from now on (which is usually how sons want things, in my experience).

Knowing my son#2, once his mother starts dating openly, he'll stop harboring hope of reconciliation and he'll be all over me to find someone so I leave him alone .

The example I want to set for both kids is that even when you get knocked down, you get up again and keep trying. After all, I do want grandchildren and I'd like the boys to be married to the mothers of my grandchildren first.



Chris.

That movie was great!

re: "After all, I do want grandchildren and I'd like the boys to be married to the mothers of my grandchildren first."

thanx for the reply. But what I was really asking you was about your children and sex, not necessarily having children. What about sex outside of marriage for your children? Would you even broach the subject, or leave it up to them to decide without your input? Just wondering, as from past posts, I believe our beliefs were similar.

If you choose not to answer, I understand. I'm just in a tough spot myself. I want my children to wait, but -- myself -- I think I may be waiting forever, and I don't want to do that. That makes me feel hypocritical.

Jean

I think this is one of those "age" things.

We don't let kids drink or smoke even though drinking and smoking are legal. We can guide and lecture and talk until we're blue in the face, but they're going to make their own decisions once they think they're ready. We can't live their lives for them.

I have the same outlook about sex, and I don't think there is anything hypocritical about it. Our situations are totally different. I KNOW what sex means to me, I have years of experience, and I know what the pitfalls are. My boy does not know any of this (regardless of what I try to tell him) until he has his own experiences.


Chris.

Jean,

After reading your post last night I dug through my assortment of books trying to find something I remembered from a few years ago. I hope this proves helpful to you.

Chapter 13 of Sex Facts For The Family by Clifford & Joyce Penner is titled: Single, Sexual, and Sanctified. They deal in-depth with the subject from a Christian, Biblical (and yet very realistic) point of view. The book also has some useful information on how to talk and deal with children on the subject of sex.

Another book that you might want to check out is Sex for Christians by Dr. Lewis B. Smede. He also handles the issue from your perspective.

Mike

Jean

"I think my convictions may be changing and I don't know if that's a good thing. Sex is still sacred to me...but do I need those marriage vows in order to give myself permission to enjoy it? Vows that are so easily thrown away? I don't know."

This is really just your personal choice on how you want to handle that.  I don't think anyone here would think your were horrible if you decided to have sex before being married or decided to wait either.  While I have had sex with no one but my H for the past 17 years, once we are legally separated, I don't think I would have a problem with it if I was to meet someone I truly cared about.  Definitely not some casual experience (but I'm not bothered by people who do that) but what I think of as a long-lasting relationship with someone who treats me well.  I still think sex is sacred to me and certainly wouldn't give it freely but I don't see anything wrong with it once legally separated.  It really is a personal choice for each person. 

Jean, if I may, what I'll tell my kids...

I'll tell my kids that I don't think teenagers are emotionally equipped to handle sex. I think teenagers are reckless in too many ways. They won't protect themselves from STDs and pregnancy. Nor will they protect themselves against the emotional impacts of sex. Sex is pretty powerful and the problem is that, physically, we haven't really evolved enough to have our sexual urges show up later in life even though as humans we live longer. Medicine has only extended our life expectancies over the last 100-150 years. But that's not enough time for our biology to evolve so that we don't start wanting to have sex and babies at 15!

Its amazing how as I grow older how I feel about sex has changed. As a teen I was intrigued with its power and "mystery". I wasn't active as a teenager unless you count kissing and groping (over clothing) as active. As a young adult and a young married woman, sex was indeed "sacred" because it was about connecting with my H and initimacy and sharing and having children. Now as a woman approaching 40 who has "been there, done that" and is past child-bearing prime but also far less naive about what true intimacy and sharing is about, I now know that it's not the act but the love that is sacred.

So when my kids are old enough this is what I plan to tell them: sex is amazing and powerful and fun and scary. And anything that involves that much emotion needs a mature person to handle it. Because there are so many consequences that go with sex -- potential pregnancy, STD's, emotional attachment etc, -- I don't want them having sex unless they are old enough to deal with the fallout. If they can't handle someone seeing them naked one day and then next day telling all their friends about where that special mole is -- then they better not be getting naked!!

I think that the best way to entice a teen to do something is to make it forbidden. But, give someone all the information and explain to them how it might impact them on a personal and social level and they'll come to making the right choice.

Jean, you are a Christian right? How did Jesus teach and explain to his flock how to conduct themselves? By prescribing rules and regulations? No, that was done via the Ten Commandments. He used fables and stories and parables. And he did this because people have a free will and are faced with choices every day and they need to make the right choice for them based on the situation they are placed in. So he illustrated behaviour by creating a story and then describing how the characters behaved as "models" to emulate. I think that's how I like to work with my kids -- paint a picture and then let them finish the story. They are going to do it anyway.

I have no one in mind, and if I did,that probably wouldn't matter anyway. Because I had another seizure in my sleep Saturday night and I'm still trying to recover my full mind and energy. Last one was Jan. 1st.

Let's see, if I could choose between two eligible, available men--one who has had seizures and one who hadn't--I'd pretty much go for the man who hadn't. I'm not into thrill issues like that, and I figure no body else is, either.

This sucks -- really exhausting and lonely. Apparently I called my sister in VA on Sunday or Monday and we had a nice conversation. My sister filled me in on it yesterday. I don't remember it, myself.

Oh, and did I mention I lost my job 3 weeks ago? The world is just peachy, yesiree.

If anyone knows how in the world I can stop "recovering" from everything all the damn time and simply live for a while, that would be really cool. I'm so tired of just trying to make it day to day right now--I've got my hands full. My children deserve more than I can give them, and that's the part that hurts me the most.

Jean

I'm sorry to hear of the added emotional/financial pressure. That is no fun, and I know it firsthand.

Keep one thing in mind: your children "deserve" your best, whatever that is. Do not fall into the trap of believing that they always deserve "better" from you.

I've never been one to quote scripture around these parts, but I'll offer this to you because I know you're a Christian.

When Christ said "look to the lillies of the field" in his lecture on not worrying, he was NOT trying to say that God will perpetually bless you with everything you need to have. I believe he was trying to tell us that worry and anxiety is unproductive, even destructive.

I now know that's my biggest enemy: worry and anxiety. It starts with the familiar gnawing in the pit of my gut, then the "what if" thoughts bubble up into my brain as I construct "worry scenarios". I stop eating right, keep silly hours, neglect household tasks, and function at a very low level. Then I get sick and tired, and function even less well.

Jean, your "comeback" has been a real inspiration to me these past few months. You have shown me, and all the others here, that we WILL survive whatever comes. What remains for us to do is put one foot in front of the other, all day, every day, THE BEST WE CAN. When we hit bumps or setbacks, it does slow us down and we must accept that.

You're Jean, not SuperJean. And thank God.

Chris.

re: "When we hit bumps or setbacks, it does slow us down and we must accept that."

You are right, and I thank you for posting.

I suppose that if I were "SuperJean" that I'd be even more of a pain to be around than I am now.

I just see so much beauty in life, and so much to be done.... and my health issues just keep me from doing all that I want to do, and even keep me from doing the stuff that's staring me in the face.

And sometimes I do feel that God lets me down. The sleep seizure thing freaks me out. I still have a hunch--maybe wishful thinking--that this is not epilespy. It started in 1998. I've only had them in my sleep, and I can go for years and not have any...then, have just one, then go 1-2 years without another one. and never once when I'm awake. My family doctor (wholistic, naturopathic chiropractor brother) is pretty certain they are blood-sugar related, and says this is why I'd probably never have one while awake because I would have reached for something to eat long before I got that bad. hmmmm. I hope he's right.

Apparently better stress release/control, more exercise, and losing more weight (I've lost 10 lbs!) is the way to go. Apparently I "internalize" a lot of stress...that's what my other brother told me.... and I always thought I was just "bucking up." You know, stiff upper lip and all that stuff.

Then again, as I look back on the past couple of years, it's been really rough. My daughter's sleep issues. My parents being very ill and frail, and my father's almost died a couple of times. My ex's repeated infidelities, lies, and betrayals, and then the divorce. My nephew over in Iraq twice. The rest of my family is spread out so I have no practical support.

So how does one go about getting practical support? Actually, I remember a single mother's support group advertised at the library. I think I'll try there. Any ideas from any of you fine folks would be great.

Jean

The combo of stress, worry, and anxiety can't be helping your health any (was my sort of too-subtle point).

There used to be an organization called "Parents Without Partners", but I haven't heard much about it since the 80's. I think it was a national umbrella with local chapters. Of course, I had no need of it then...

Hang in there, Jean.

Chris.

I'm hanging in there, Chris. I've prayed and am trying my hardest to give this seizure stuff over to God and have some good come out of it. One thing: it gives me more incentive to lose weight...11 pounds and counting. 2nd thing: after several days of panicky "I can't believe this happened again" "what if it happens when I'm awake" "what if I can't drive or scare the living crap out of my children..." type stuff, it is forcing me to live in the moment and enjoy it for what it's worth. I tell ya, that's a hard discipline for me.

Thanks to my tight budgeting and the child support/alimony, I can do okay for just a couple of months without getting another part-time job, so I think that's just what I'm going to do. Most of my family's telling me to just take the rest of the summer off and enjoy it with my children. So we're going to go to the beach a lot. And we're going to go the library and get a bunch of books and videos. And I'm going to get 9 hours of sleep every night, drink lots of water and stay on my lo-carb plan. Maybe all this is what I really need...to build my reserves back up--that always takes longer than I think it will, but maybe it took a seizure to bring me to this place where I realize that I'm important enough to take really good care of me.

And my sister's been involved with Parents without Partners. I think I'll look into that too.

Jean

See, you already knew what to do...



Chris.