"Recovery Beyond Year One Long term personal development, building a new marriage, and/or a new life."
Sometimes I wonder if I still fit in around here. I really don't want to talk about affair recovery as much as I once needed. (This place was very helpful when I was in pain) I do try and help out newbies from time to time in chat or through a post. Sort of feels like paying back for all those who helped me when I first arrived here.
But now I have moved beyond that past life and I'm trying hard to build a new one. These days I'm more interested in talking about what is happening in my life now, not what destroyed it back then. Seems like several of us are in the same place;
*dealing with the headache of a divorce
*recently (or soon to be) divorced
*custody/chidren issues
*the pressure and fears of being single again
*the fear of ever trusting someone again
I realize the big goal for this forum is to save marriages and relationships. But like I saw many moons ago, some of us go splat while attempting that climb.
I'm excited about Chris rejoining the dating world (btw we need to talk and compare notes). I'm worried about some who are terrified about future relationships. I can relate with some who have fretted about never meeting someone again. I'm uncertain what to tell my kids.
So is this the right place for that. I have had a sense this was morte like a place for those who are still in their relationship years after D-Day. Kind of a mixed group of people who have taken different paths.
Is it the primary goal of this board to save marriages and relationships?
I don't think so. I think the goal is exactly as stated -- helping people either build a new marriage based on the new realities of their lives after an affair or build a new life. That's what's stated right in the heading.
The reality is that a large percentage of marriages DO NOT survive an affair. I don't know the exact stats and whenever I read them it depends on who's pulling together the statistics. I would bet that its probably bigger than people realize in that so many affairs stay secret and marriages end sometimes for apparently different reasons without the affairs ever being revealed.
So to me healing is whatever healing means to you. If healing to you means figuring out how to date again or deal with family fallout or divorce challenges, or regaining your self-esteem and identity, then that's what you need to do to heal.
Others who are still in their marriages provide a sort of "half-full" picture. Whatever percentage of marriages don't survive, there is the complementary number of marriages that do. Those rebuilding their marriages have to go through the same struggles I do to regain their sense of faith and trust and security. They just happen to be fortunate enough to still have their partners in that journey.
So even though the path may be leading to different places, many of the steps are the same. So I say its still a great place to discuss those issues you are having.
Recovery Beyond Year One
Long term personal development, building a new marriage, and/or a new life
Jack you are beyond Year One....and your starting a new life....so Yeah, you've come to the right place!
There is such a new life out there>>>>start your new dreams! All the best to you Jack on your new exciting journey!
Jo
Deeper Healing is about: pork, veggies, tofu, chocolate, jokes, poems, prayers, songs, flowers,tipis, encouragement, discouragement, venting about X''s, STBX's, HINOS, WINOS and on occasion, a HO COW thrown in for good measure.
It's about sharing our lives with others who have struggled and succeded whether they stayed married or not.
When I first started visiting the Deeper Healing predecessor board, it was mostly populated with people who HAD stayed married and either (1) characterized their marriages as successful partnerships, or (2) struggled mightily with "something" on a continuous basis. I could name names, but I think we all know who's who.
The recent separations and pending or new divorces are largely among the #2 population.
From the extremely non-scientific sample we represent, there are four categories represented:
Fast fixes (Cory is one example), where both partners are fairly quickly (under a year) fully committed to doing what it takes to fix things
Slow fixes (Kat comes to mind here...a painful separation followed by reconcilitation, as does SWN)
Fast divorces (think DAG and Cherish)
Slow divorces (WR, MM, Jean, Jane, Bart, you, me...)
Most in that last category saw themselves two years ago as being in the "slow fix" category, as reflected in the agonized "what am I doing wrong" sort of posts we often posted.
Now we're all in various states of separation and divorce and dealing with kids, houses, debt, and new relationships. For me, that last is especially hard, since I'm one who simply didn't allow for opportunities to deal with interesting women while I was married. (I always figured that "forsaking all others" in my vows meant more than just "I won't get naked with anyone else".)
So Jack, I figure you're in the right place. Even in divorce and dating, the fallout of being betrayed will be present and the people here similarly situated will understand better than anyone else.
I took the real Ho Cow to the cattle auction two weeks ago Thursday. She wouldn't stay in my west pasture but insisted on going over the fence into the neighbor's on occassion. (sounds familiar to some of us...) My guess is you could meet her at your local McDonald's soon if you like hamburgers.
Sounds like the HO COW deserved to be sold at auction. I hate cows.
This is due to working on my dad's ranch, connecting main line irrigation pipe in 100 deg. weather. Eventually we bought a Rain-bird that ran along a cable a mile long. Sometimes the run would end at three in the morning. Waking up and getting in a jeep with a flashlight to go out and shut the sprinkler off was a whole lot of fun! NOT. I did this off and on for about ten years. I hate cows.
You guys could be just the experts I need on the subject of stray animals. I live in the city, unlike your good selves who are used to the wide open spaces, but even here, we have a group of feral cattle that keep on trying to get into our yards and houses. I shooed one away a year or so ago, but whaddya know? She came back!
Seems she has her heart set on my house, and I think my husband doesn't want to see her disppointed. Those big brown eyes get him every time.
Any of you got a spare cattle prod? (What is a cattle prod anyway?)
Thanks for responses. I must say, I felt weird talking about dating on an "Affair Rocovery" board. But the fact is, that for some of us, that is what recovery means.
A special thanks to Chris for catagorizing everything for us. (you just can't help it can you?)
But I guess Mike hit the nail on the head. This site is about how we handle Ho Cows:
* Some trust them not to jump the fence again
* Some build higher fences
* Some take them to auction
All I know for sure, is that I'm eating lunch at McDonalds today.
Jack
PS: Chris, its Monday. We expect full details on your class. Just keep your priorities straight. Remember why you are there. Any geek can get an eduction, but it takes brains and determination to find a date.
Class was rescheduled, and doesn't start now for a couple more weeks. Such is part of the joy of "just for fun" classes, I guess.
Chris.
ps. I just thought of one more "aspect" of this dating side of recovery...how do we know if people are telling us the truth about being single themselves? How many people actually get caught up as the OP unintentionally? It seems possible to be a little "needy" or desperate at times, which might cloud one's judgement.
(I'm thinking of the other woman in the Scot Peterson case.)
Chris - <<how do we know if people are telling us the truth about being single themselves>> Look for the obvious first.
Whats the first thing I check-out on a woman? her eyes, the nice smile, legs, tush, breast.....naw. I first glance is to that ring finger.
Of course they can always slip it off (but start with the obvious). Women and men tend to behave differntly. Guys looking to cheat, slip off the ring. Women tend to fall into affairs, first becoming emotionally attached. And the truth is that if a woman simply wants to cheat (or get laid) she doesnt need to lie. There are plenty of guys willing to provide the service.
Other signs are things that can easily be picked up when talking. If they are reluctant to give you there home number, but insist you call there cell or pager is a warning sign. Unlike us men, women are ussually quick to talk about past realtionships. Just ask "I can't someone as nice/beautiful/charming/smart as you hasn't already been taken."
Do you mean to tell us that the COW is back in your lives? What are we gong to do?????
The COW in my case is a dear friend of my MIL and SIL. The whole scenario ate a whole in my stomach- NO more. She is nothing but an insignificant piece of fly sh--t.
Hey do you want to take the chunnel over to Paris the first part of Sept. and meet me there.
My girlfriends daughter had her baby, she lives in Paris, and guess who's going? Tee Hee, little ol me!!!
Jack wrote >>I realize the big goal for this forum is to save marriages and relationships<<
I confess, that was my focus for several years. IMHO another big goal might be "personal recovery and growth". I don't think I've ever read a post in which someone opined that we need to get lost if we go splat attempting the climb.
MM wrote >>Deeper Healing is about: pork, veggies, tofu, .... <<<<
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Pork? Definitely. Veggies? Maybe. But tofu? Sheesh. We may not have many standards but we do have some.
Chris wrote >>I could name names, but I think we all know who's who<<
Oh go ahead. Name names. "I have not now nor have I ever struggled mightily with 'something" on a continuous basis' but I think Wild Rice might have had a dalliance or two with struggling mightily."
>>From the extremely non-scientific sample we represent, there are four categories represented<<
I'd put Joseph (beloved author of the classic "why I need to know" post) down for a category 3 result. Tom gets a category 1 but with elements of category 2 thrown in for good measure. I'm going to give JC a solid category 2. Unfortunately, there are too many category 4's to name. Many departed long, long ago.
Mike wrote >>I took the real Ho Cow to the cattle auction two weeks ago Thursday<<
I was there. I wouldn't say that the bidding was fierce - I've never seen so many cowpokes(?) sitting on their hands.
Annieliz asked >>What is a cattle prod anyway?<<
There are several types of prods but one that I want to mention here is the type that can be used to deliver considerable sub-lethal amperage to the haunches of a recalcitrant beastie (including ones with oversized, doleful eyes). A most handy device - even for urban folk. Git aloooong little doagies.
Jack wrote >>All I know for sure, is that I'm eating lunch at McDonalds today<<
Make mine a double quarter pounder with extra pickle, hold the cheese.
MM wrote >>Hey [Annieliz] do you want to take the chunnel over to Paris the first part of Sept. and meet me there<<
Put me in the Fast Divorce category. From the time he moved in with OW to divorce: 10 months.
The morning after he packed his bag and left, I was at the lawyer's preparing the filing.
He was cruel to me and our children. Always angry, irritable...and neglected us to the point of treating us like were invisible. He had no respect for our individual characteristics and wanted complete and utter control of every one of our actions and reactions, words, etc.
His infidelity allowed me to cut the cord for good.
I have no regrets about divorcing him.
Just fears about creating my financial future after over a decade of being a SAHM. But I'm moving ahead the best I can.
LOL. I look at the ring finger first, too. All the time. And I agree completely about women who want to cheat having an easy time finding a mark...but I just don't want to BE that mark. I don't need Mr. Sluggo mad at me because Mrs. Sluggo lied.
The class is on Frank Lloyd Wright. (If you were watching "Dateline NBC" on Friday night, the candle-lit narrator segments were filmed in the "Ennis-Brown House", a Wright design in LA from the 1930's.)
Oh my, I'm a vegetarian country gal who decided to get the big D as in divorce. I'm now a year past and thankful I opened the gate! Dating is scarry stuff, but a great way to learn, be open, and have fun! Actually, I'm not that experienced at it and am only dating one person since the D. I think the most important thing is to be yourself- even if that self is untrusting and cow shy. Trust your gut and listen to your heart.
"Fast fixes (Cory is one example), where both partners are fairly quickly (under a year) fully committed to doing what it takes to fix things Slow fixes (Kat comes to mind here...a painful separation followed by reconcilitation, as does SWN) Fast divorces (think DAG and Cherish) Slow divorces (WR, MM, Jean, Jane, Bart, you, me...)"
I noticed you didn't put me under any of those categories and I sat here and looked at your 4 categories and couldn't figure out which one I fall under LOL!
I think mine fell under the fast fixes and then several months ago very quickly changed to a fast divorce although it may take forever for that to actually happen so maybe its a slow divorce. Okay, who cares anyway, right?
Some of the rest of us thought we were reconciled too, Charlie. When the selfishness resurfaces, and we see that we were taken advantage of, yes a fast divorce may then occur. I'd still put that in the "slow divorce" category.
It seems a lot like cancer: if you can get past it 5 years and no recurrence, then you're probably in the clear.
Technically there was a recurrance in my fifth year Chris.
But things had gone all the way down the tubes by then anyway.
Maybe if you're still trying, together, and make it through 5 years (without the affair continuing in any way, shape, or form) the thing will stay away or in remission.
There's still a chance, however, that your heart will drift away from the person who betrayed and hurt you so badly--like a stubborn and determined separate entity from your mind's best intentions .
Isn't it Peggy Vaughan who wrote that she believes that it takes a minimum of two years to rebuild a marriage after the discovery of an affair? I think she also said that it was about 10 years before she had fully recovered (personally) from the impact of her h's multiple affairs.
When it comes to timelines for marriage rebuilding or personal recovery, I suppose it goes without saying that everyone is different. Still, five years ago it might have helped me to have a clearer idea about what I would be facing over the next 2, 5, and 10 years. I hope that counselors and self help book authors don't soft peddle information about timelines because they believe that it is best that people not know too much it. They wouldn't do that would they (he asked, ironically)?
Bart, you asked, "Isn't it Peggy Vaughan who wrote that she believes that it takes a minimum of two years to rebuild a marriage after the discovery of an affair?"
I think what she said was that it takes a minimum of two years just to get over the initial stages of shock, anger, etc., after the discovery. I may be wrong on that. I would check my copy of Monogamy Myth, but it's lent out right now...
Soft peddling... Self help authors don't do that. C'mon, that would be like, lying or something, wouldn't it?
In time, we ALL recover. The big questions are, how much time does it take, and will it be with or without your spouse? Much of that timeline has to do with how individuals react, how their spouses react, etc. From what I've seen through the years, the marriages that seem to survive and succeed are the ones where the cheating party is TRULY repentant (takes some longer than others for this), their commitment to WIN in rebuilding (WIN = Whatever Is Necessary), and the BS's willingness to fight like crazy to heal and rebuild. Both parties need to heal and recover, and both parties must be willing to look at themselves, AND their marriage, from a completely different perspective. Without this bi-partisan approach, it won't work, period.
We all grow up listening to and reading the stories that end in "happily ever after". There is a reason why these stories are called Fairy Tales. They're just not true. Unless you AND your spouse are committed to working your arse off, to rebuild, grow and maintain your marriage, it just isn't going to happen. Marriage is the hardest and most stressful job in the world. It CAN also be the most fulfilling. It all depends on the parties involved.
My .02, and as Bart is famous for saying, your mileage may vary.
I was thinking of Jack, Bart, WR, and me when I wrote 5 years regarding the "slow divorces".
The self-help people sell the 2-year idea, but it seems to me that the marriage needs to be cancer-free for five years. I don't mean "no more affairs". I mean "no more selfishness and hiding one's true self", a pattern which merely showed itself in our betraying partners' affairs.
It took me that long (and MUCH posting and reading here) to sort out the non-affair lifelong patterns and normal male-female stuff from the affair crap, and it seems that it took these other folks about the same. WRRW once called it "stripping away the veils".
Yep, I know about that "stripping away of the veils" It took me about 3 months after we decided to divorce and an excellent counselor to strips all those veils. I had to put our entire relationship together and look at it all at once instead of the bits and pieces. I now realize that the selfishness in our marriage was going on the entire time and I'm not sure why I would defend him. I remember having to explain some things that he did to my own family which is kind of screwed up on my part.
I won't say my H wasn't a good provider because he was and he is excellent at his job but he thought his responsibility stopped when he came home. I remember making the comment about how he treated his employees better than his own family many times. I guess I saw it but couldn't let go because of the kids.
So many times I've thought we've been married to the same man.
"I had to put our entire relationship together and look at it all at once instead of the bits and pieces." ditto.
"I now realize that the selfishness in our marriage was going on the entire time and I'm not sure why I would defend him." ditto.
"I remember having to explain some things that he did to my own family which is kind of screwed up on my part." ditto. (i.e., me:
He couldn't come to dinner/church/birthday party/wedding (whatever it was)... because he's working ...or..he's too tired from working.... he needed some time "off.".... whatever.)
"I won't say my H wasn't a good provider because he was and he is excellent at his job but he thought his responsibility stopped when he came home." ditto.
"I remember making the comment about how he treated his employees better than his own family many times." ditto.
"I guess I saw it but couldn't let go because of the kids." ditto.
My ex is a damn selfish, immature man. I hope that I have been changing for the better in such a way that I would be able to spot another "man" (term used loosely) like that in the future and steer clear of him. You and I deserve so much more than that, Charlie! As I say, it's much better to be alone than lonely with someone else.
Altho I can't remember your story, really, from this post, I can see that we are in the same place, I think. In fact, about a month ago I posted a "goodbye" post to this forum, feeling it was time for me to leave, because I really got tired of revisiting my own trauma, and found I had so much "mo better" things to do than continue to analyze what happened. Not to minimize the importance of analyzing, supporting, and sharing, but it seemed time to move on.
Well, I am moving on, in just the right way for me, I guess, and it feels good. But now I find it's good to see how others here are moving on, too. One thing that always got me a little nervous was the fact that I had a hard time remembering the important details of posters' particular stories, and I felt I often couldn't respond appropriately without knowing these details. So...I would attempt to read up on a story before posting and I spent a lot of time, what I found to be be too much time for me...doing this. It took too much time away from my children, especially at night.
I have a feeling that my posts tend to come across as heavy on the cut-n-dried, black-n-white, right-n-wrong thinking and advice, and not so much on the compassionate listening and encouraging side, which is probably why I usually stay away from the Open board a lot. It is good that there are many loving, compassionate people here that post good advice in a way that makes it easier to receive. I really like that.
And I still deal with custody, "ex" and single issues, so I like leaning on all of you here for that.
So very true. I do realize that I was very lonely with him too. His job kept him away a heeuugge amount of time, when he was home he worked from 4:30am to 6-8pm nearly every night, and when he was actually in the house, he would try to stay on the computer or watching TV more than he would spend with us. He got angry at me when I'd ask him to get off after being on for about an hour because I wanted him to spend some time with us or the family. Right before he left for 6 months, he spent 3 hours on the computer downloading music--that was a few months before we decided to divorce. He was clearly showing me that he really didn't want to invest in our relationship and I was angry about it but he really didn't care how I felt. I just can't believe I was married to someone that selfish for so long and someone that constantly lied to me. I don't think he even knew when he was lying he got so good at it!
Jean
Let's raise up a glass of champagne and toast to getting rid of these selfish H's, and your right, I'll be looking for the exact opposite of my H and I'm hoping it won't be too hard to find! I had little clues when I was dating him but I was FAR too young to know any better when I started dating him at 18 years.
We do seem to be in very similar places (except all my exes live in Texas).
Don't worry about remembering my story (hell, its mostly a blur to me). Its mostly the smae old song and dance - Spouse cheated, devestated me, tried to to repair, W minimized and wanted to sweep it under the rug, it ate away at the marriage, I went splat, and we are no longer together. (How's that for summing it all up?)
I see alot of posts I start to respond to and then pull back. I realize they need compassion and I find myself wanting to say, "this must occur or it just won't work. If both can't/won't do the following then just give it up and save both of yourselves the pain and time"
But now I mostly want to focuss possibilities and the future - my kids, my carrer and a new personal/social life.
" see alot of posts I start to respond to and then pull back. I realize they need compassion and I find myself wanting to say, "this must occur or it just won't work. If both can't/won't do the following then just give it up and save both of yourselves the pain and time"
That is exactly what I did in a healing post a minute ago. Maybe I shouldn't have???
Jean wrote >>I have a feeling that my posts tend to come across as heavy on the cut-n-dried, black-n-white, right-n-wrong thinking and advice, and not so much on the compassionate listening and encouraging side, which is probably why I usually stay away from the Open board a lot. It is good that there are many loving, compassionate people here that post good advice in a way that makes it easier to receive. I really like that.<<
Are you sure you're talking about yourself, Jean? LOL.
Charlie and Jack wrote about being uncertain about a "cut your losses" post.
I wrote one of those already today over on Healing, to the girl whose hubby cheated before, during, and after the wedding. I also tried to be a little compassionate; sometimes the compassion puts posters enough at ease to really see their own words and their own situation clearly.
Chris.
ps. And thank you Jean, Charlie, and Jack for sticking around. We can all rebuild at the same time. And Jean, give yourself permission to be less than perfect. It's ok. Really.
"I also tried to be a little compassionate; sometimes the compassion puts posters enough at ease to really see their own words and their own situation clearly."
I was just shaking my head in disbelief that you said that LOL!
That was exactly what pretty much this whole board did when I found out about the H doing all that other stuff, still lying and finding out about multiple affairs in my "Add me to the Many D-days and divorcing group" thread a few months back. I wanted to say that just seeing the sympathy in those messages everyone wrote was enough for me to look at the total picture and realize what I DID NOT have LOL!
BTW Chris, we're glad you stuck around too! I want to get to the point where one day each of us will actually meet that person of our dreams and be really happy. I'd like to know when that actually happens for each of us.
This message has been edited by hurt288 on Jul 26, 2004 6:56 PM
Chris, re: "Are you sure you're talking about yourself, Jean? LOL." Are you being sarcastic or real? I'm often really not quite sure how I come across... When I was growing up, my gut instinct, my opinions, and my preferences were generally disqualified, as a rule, by many of my siblings and my mother, so I always found that I was second-guessing myself. So add that to my faith that began mostly in my head (moral absolutes in abstract) but continues to slowly and unevenly filter down into my heart, and um....well, things get a little messy.
What the heck did I just say? I don't know..... BUT, since it's okay that I can be less than perfect, I feel better. Thanks, Chris. I'm glad we all stuck around, too.
Charlie wrote: "I want to get to the point where one day each of us will actually meet that person of our dreams and be really happy. I'd like to know when that actually happens for each of us."
Charlie, I raise my glass to you and me, and the rest of us who have slogged thru the betrayal pit and have climbed back up the other side. Cheers! Let's be happy NOW. Of course we'd all like to find a special happiness with another person, but why wait for that? We can surround ourselves now with those people that we love, and the things that we enjoy.
I don't know why I accepted such a morose and brooding husband the first time. He put me on a pedestal and he told me that I made him happy. YIKES! And I believed him, like a dummy (it was flattering). But it didn't take me long to fall off that pedestal. Since I couldn't stay up there, he was always mad at me. He was even mad at me when I got sick, like I did it on purspose.
Anyways... two of my sisters told me that the further I got away from that abusive marriage, the stranger I would see that it was. It's true. I hope my children never have to go thru half of what I did. And, as was mentioned on another post, particularly by Jbean, I think, that's why I've had so many health issues in the past 5 years. But I hope I can reverse some of that. I'm trying.
Jean
This message has been edited by Jean150 on Jul 27, 2004 11:44 AM
oh, I get it. No offense taken, just couldn't quite figure out what it meant, and, as you and I both know, we GOTTA know what everything means.
(The ex hated to get in an argument with me when we were together because he said I was too good at it and very literal...he said I should have been a lawyer. I think he just didn't like my being right. Well, gee, just how right could HE feel while being unfaithful? hmmm)
