I am bothered. I just heard a therapist on the radio state that "the betrayed always knows..." Did you know?
I truly did not know. I knew he was depressed HOWEVER, his four affairs went on for years before I had a clue. My first realization of the remotest possibility was about 6 months before d day. I had so much love and respect for my H that I truly never thought this was a possibility.
The FIRST hint I had was when I said " If I didn't know you better I would swear you are having an affair" I was shocked these words came out of MY mouth in front of my daughter no less. I could not believe I said that. From that moment on, I started to wonder what was wrong with our relationship. However, for years before that I truly believed he was depressed. I did not ever think "we" had problems. I felt he had problems and all i had to do was love him through it. He had been fired ( start first affair here) and I knew that was a huge blow to his self esteem. I was supportive financially and emotionally. Never suspecting the truth.
My therapist says the reason I had no suspicions is cause my H was bordering on psychiatric. His world was totally and completely divided and no one not even a therapist would have been able to figure out the truth. My H had totally hidden from himself all reality.
Obviously this is still a real sore point for me.
I have discussed this in therapy many times. My therapist assures me that my intuitive skills are excellent and I was not in denial.
THis is so important to me, cause I felt for years that I lost trust in myself and my feelings. I am starting to get me back. However, when I heard this therapist make this comment I was upset.
I truly had no clue. It bothers me. Am I stupid? My H had affairs for years... I really need help here.
Thanks
El
This message has been edited by hurt on Nov 30, 2004 2:32 PM
Nope I don't agree. I agree that there are situations where the signs are as huge as the flashing lights on a vegas strip but not always.
I consider all the cases I know of myself and each time, even beyond my own, people have said "I had no idea". There does come a time in some relationships when the betrayed starts to suspect. But they don't KNOW until they know, you know?
In my case I was completely taken by surprise. Yes, my H had withdrawn from me emotionally and sexually. But I had so much confidence in his integrity and in his very often stated positions against adultery that I did not suspect an affair at all. I suspected depression, self-esteem issues, and even at one point, a health issue, but never adultery.
And I know of at least three other cases where the betrayed spouse was completely taken by surprise. Two of them that I knew personally were also a total and complete surprise to me given the behaviour and state of those relationships. One wasn't -- all of this guys friends knew what a cad he was -- but it totally shocked his wife.
So El, don't feel like you somehow have to take responsibility for "knowing" or "not knowing" what your spouse was up to. Its not our job as spouses to play policeman and ensure our significant others aren't cheating on us. That is their job -- their job to live up to the vows and commitments they made.
El somewhere deep inside I must have known since I uttered those words "if i didn't know you better i would think you were having an affair" on two seperate occasions, near the beginning and the end.
However, I trusted my ex completely and therefore the sheer idea of him having an affair seemed ludicrous....i thought it was me with the problem. No way would a man I just married 2 years before, whom I loved, who loved me do that to me. So regardless of how some clues may have added up they had to be something else.
Sorry, EL, I don't think I could be of any help there...
For over 1 1/2 year 'things' were dicey at my house... I had a very stressful position, I had lost my dearest friend, I really thought I was loosing 'it'... a family-of-choice member started looking into my 'funk' and asked some pointed questions re. that young woman who appeared out of nowhere and was often among us. I could not 'see' it - however my body started slowly to scream at me... something is wrong !!!
See, before getting married, we lived together for 4 years. He knew my 1st marriage had ended with an exit affair, and we knew where we stood re. extra marital affairs - or so I thought. god, I remember saying "an affair? it is between you and your conscience - don't include me in the picture, pack your bag and leave". "What she does not know won't hurt her" slowly became his motto.
Heck, I could do a 'family assessment' with strangers in 5 minutes flat, and could not see what was going on in my own house... Once I had all the cards in my hands I could 'foresee' the 'moves' and that in itself was a big problem for my H... "she won't do that, how do you know she would do this... etc...stop analyzing the situation, stop analyzing me, I feel like one of your clients", and I could not help myself... and I was right on the $$.....
So, NO... I did not know - I really thought he had my six... you know, I thought I was protected, at least in my own home, in my personal life, in my marriage....I never thought about being knifed at HOME...in the 'streets', by a disgruntled and angry parent, in my home, never.... thinking about all the hoops I jumped thru... I am at times amazed at what I put myself thru, and the poor child thought I would just roll over and disappear LOL...she was the one who gave up - finally....
At this time of the year I remember... he turned 7 this past weekend... I knew of his birth, but was only told of his paternity 6 months later....and my world toppled...
I still don't like this time of the year !!!! too many memories... to many losses...
El, despite the fact you knew nothing of his affairs you couldn't have stopped it anyway in my experience.....now what are YOU doing beating yourself up about this ?
I as you may recall knew my wife was headed for an affair and in fact brought that very subject up with her....I asked her point blank...what would you do if "she" came unto you?......Donna replied..."well that would be the end of our friendship!......of course it was just the beginning.
I also knew because the Ow was always around and my wife started puttin her ahead of me.....which started me to become a spy which led to even more suspicions.
I actually knew in my heart the day the had sex.....I just felt something inside telling me it was happening and that same day I stood on a ferry contemplating suicide knowing in my heart she was gone.
Knowing what was happening was terrible...kinda like watching an A bomb drop and being powerless to stop it or change its direction....simply powerless....pure torture....I remember the looks that they gave each other during the Emotional part of the affair,......I felt like I wasn;t even alive when we were together in the same room.
I am so sorry that you are dealing with this self doubt....many of us here were living with ....as Cory has pointed out....Blind Trust.
I am starting to get me back again after all this time,but never in my wildest dreams or I should say nightmares would I ever have thought my H was capable of what he did. Over the years we knew of other people who were having problems and having affairs and I remember saying to my H..................if we ever get to this cross in the road I want you to promise me that you will be man enough to be honest and tell me the truth rather than hurt me and letting me find out from someone else..........I also promised him...............He was my friend, soulmate, lover and husband so I felt safe that I would never be in this situation that I now find myself.
Maybe that is why when it actually happened I couldn't see beyond my world that he was actually having a long term relationship with another . I have to admit after a few years of trying to figure out why he was acting the way he was I figured out he was sick................had bipolar tendancies as my younger son put it. Actually persuaded him to get help to save US and he did, but forgot to mention to his first Dr that he was having an affair. So I went along thinking he was sick and of course I would stay with him.............after all I loved him and was willing to sacrifice ME to help HIM.
Needless to say, I am still not certain what came first...........his affair or his illness.........maybe his illness was triggered by his infidelity? Or his infidelity was a byprduct of his illness?
El, I had no clue I was dealing with an A............I shut myself down to the thought of it in retrospect. I believe we don't ever want to believe the spouse we trust with all our heart and soul could be that self centered and selfish to lie and cheat on us especially if our relationship has been a long one founded on trust and love.
I am still battling the trust issue in my mind but things have been good and I am trying to live again one day at a time.
Of course you are not stupid! You never have been stupid! You are simply guilty of being a loving, trusting, and devoted wife. You believed in your H and your marriage and there was and is nothing wrong with that. We did not know because they didn't want us to know! They were able to creat another life where we did not exist! They were able to keep their two lives seperate.
Hence, reality and lalaland. Who better to fool us into thinking our lives were fine, even more than fine, than the one person who knows us best. The person who knows what we need and want to be happy. As long as they told us how much they loved us and wanted us and needed us and how happy they were with us they could keep us in the world where we belonged and not in their private world of lies and deception.
I think both your H and mine were troubled or depressed with their lives and with themselves. We know that this mess starts somewhere other than in the here and now. It started a long time ago with choices they made all through their lives. We didn't make those choices they did.
I have asked myself over and over what it was that I missed. I knew there were times when things were strained and difficult, but I also thought love would get us through those times so I didn't or couldn't imagine he would turn to the things he did.
El, you have taught me so much in the last couple of years. One of the most important things is that life does go on. Life goes on however we choose it to. We both chose to stay because we thought it was worth doing, and it has been for both of us. Our eyes have been opened to some of the worst life can give, but you and I have also seen that people can and do change for the better. I have come to believe at this point it just does not matter!! It happened, I didn't see it coming or going, but I do know it is gone now. I also know I can not let myself dwell on the past any longer. It is being absorbed into our history and in time will just be a small part of our lives together.
I know it is time to let go of what I can not change, of what only does me harm to even think about. Life is short and I want everyday to be the best we can make it. I can't do that if I keep asking myself all those questions that there is no real answer for. El, it is time to give yourself a break. We had to learn how to accept and live with the past, now live with the new and wonderful love you have for each other. Accept it for what it is now.
I knew something was wrong. He was only here 5 days after he had the A. We had got in a big fight that I started because I was feeling insecure, he had been working out of town blah blah blah. I knew something was different, since the fight. But never in my wildest dreams was I prepared for what I would find out in a week. I confronted him and asked what was wrong, he said he was having issues with me and my control and insecurity issues that he was holding in and not talking to me about and now resented me to the point he felt he hated me when we got into the fight, then he said he was moving out. I was in shock, tell me there are problems, never try and fix them then just up and leave one day. I couldn't beleive it. One week after he left he told me about the A which was a ONS. It happened the night we got in that fight. He was so angry about everything that he had been holding inside and the mean things I said to him on the phone that he went out, got drunk and did the most selfish and hurtful thing you can do to another person. He totally owned up to the A being 100% his fault. He had a choice, he chose not to talk to me about issues, he chose to let the anger build up inside him, he chose to cheat on me. When he told me about the A he also told me that he didn't love me anymore. One day later he realized he did still love me. Now in this period of less then 2 weeks when he thought he didn't love me anynore he did have phone contact with the OW. I didn't beleive that he didn't love me any more. He said he felt he didn't love me anymore because he wouldn't have done this to me if he did. He said he was so angry at me for the resentment he built up and so angry at himself for what he did that he couldn't see beyond that anger. When he realized he was still in love with me he was working out of town and I had pretty much started NC with him, only talked to about him coming to get his stuff and the kids. As soon as he got back into town he went to see the OW and told her it was all a huge mistake and he never wanted to talk to her or see her again. He did not tell me that he still loved me or that he told the OW it was over or anything until R day. When he came to get the rest of his stuff, after he packed it all up and put it in the car I said so your sure this is what you really want? He said no and told me everything else that had took place since he told me about the A. He moved back in that same day. My point was that I did know something was wrong, just not what. But my F was so angry at himself for what he had done that he couldn't hide it. It did take him about 2 weeks to tell me about the A but I didn't have to find out on my own, obviously he hadn't been lying to me for a long period of time. I think people who get caught up in the affair can become pretty good at lying and that could make it very hard to see the truth. In my case he did not become a good liar. I think we also can't face the reality so we stay in denial because it is safer and less painful. I saw something coming but not that my whole world as I knew it was about to crash down on me and bury me alive.
I wouldn't have been looking for the clues I ultimately found if I didn't know something was up.
I think the answer to this question depends entirely on whether the d-day happened because the betrayer told "out of the blue", or because the betrayed found out on his/her own.
Every therapist who makes a blanket generalization doesn't know what they are talking about. (now read that sentence again)
There are two key reasons why most betrayed spouses do not know about the affair until they know about it (huh).
1 Almost by definition, affairs are about deceit. If it were out in the open then it would be something else. Wayward spouses hide their affairs, some better than others.
2. Most betrayed spouses do not suspect that their spouses could or would stray. We love them and we trust them. There is often a special bond between spouses – the two against the world. We trust them with our finances, our secretes, our dreams, our lives and most of all our love. We trust them as we would never consider trusting anyone else. Because we trust, we are so easily deceived. How many of us have asked “how could I not have seen it?” We don’t see it till the blinders are ripped from us, then it’s just so obvious.
Why is the spouse the last to know? Because that is who it is being hidden from and the one least likely to suspect.
On this board our reference point is D-Day (Day of Discovery). There is the time before D-Day and the time after. We each have our own stories about D-Day, the shock, the pain, the world spinning out of control. We talk about D-Day because that is the relevant point in our lives – D-Day. We don’t use the start of our spouses’ affairs, the day they first “did it” or met the OP or any other point in time the way we reference D-Day. Simple reason is because D-Day is when our world crashed in on us. Do you need more evidence than this that BS typically are not aware of an affair….until they are (D-Day).
So to answer the radio therapist….Yes we all know about our spouses’ affairs, once we learn about it and not a moment sooner. Just ask any BS, most can tell you the exact time and place when the awful truth was revealed.
Jack
PS: El, I thought you much wiser than to be hoodwinked by Fraiser Crane. Media therapy loves controversy and nothing like blaming the BS to drive up ratings.
dear el, most of us were blindsided hence the horrible reactions so many of us had. I think when people say a bs knows they mean a bs must have sensed something was off. I did sense something was off but an affair wasn't even remotely on my radar. never did I think it an option he would ever take and to suspect him, would have been an act of disloyalty on my part to him. I too teased him about a girl whose name had been popping up a lot but never put two and two together. I truly thought it was work pressure and his mother's ill health at the time. I was content and secure in myself, him and us.
looking back, my subconscious did know which I find fascinating as it hid the truth from the fully conscious 'everyday me'. I am not the most street-wise of people, obviously lol. during his affair, I got patches of the blues, unexplained insomnia (where I'd jump up from bed in the wee hours for no apparent reason) and rented a couple of infidelity themed movies on a whim. I wasn't much of a movie watcher, let alone ones about infidelity! I had also discovered my then boss was a rampant adulterer. the signs were all around me yet still I had tunnel vision.
I can honestly say hand to heart it wasn't out of fear that I didn't connect the dots. it was lack of real life experience and the belief he could or would do this either me or himself. guess I had blind faith.
I used to beat myself up something horrible thinking that if I had known sooner, before it got hot and heavy, things would have worked out differently for us. perhaps it would have. he didn't want me to know which is why it was kept a secret until of course, he decided to be with her.
so even if we did know, what really could we have done about it? you can't address something you don't know nor make someone stop something they want to do. on the same token, you can't make someone cheat either. many ws's end their affairs before or without their spouses ever knowing. so while knowing is usually a good thing, it does not necessarily influence the outcome.
El, I am in a different position than you in that I had already been thru D-day one...I suspected but was told I was crazy...this went on for about 2 yrs...hard to prove ONS's. I had also found condoms in our car after a fight...early in our marriage...so I was alert...
The next round I suspected a couple of ONS's but had no proof...The A ..I think I had a gut feeling something was happening about 3 weeks into A...I developed a gallbladder problem after gallbladder was removed ...I lived on antacids for a year...But didn't confront H because of Daughters wedding and we had planned some trips...I was not allowed to touch H's cell phone...he talked to her all the time but went outside to walk the dogs...cell phone hooked to ear...he was aloof..didn't want to do anything with the family...listened to music all the time...went thru a bottle of after shave or cologne...the signs were there...I planned to leave H and had my plans in motion...I confronted him...when I finally found out his code and checked a message on his cell phone...I was so angry that I told him off before I formulated what i wanted to do with the message...not my plan...A ended... we are together...
You are not stupid, we don't want to know...we don't see the signs, because the signs are different for all people...but now you know the signs...
El don't beat your self up with this issue...you were busy with kids, You had no reason to distrust H... We have a blind eye towards anything that hints of an A...
Don't let yourself go backwards...listen to your gut not someone who makes a blanket statement...
All I knew was that he was being super critical, picking fights constantly and acting like a jack**s. Other than that I had one small clue about 4-5 mos before I caught him. He kept a little bag to get showers after his workouts in his backpack that he always carried to work and I found cologne in it. I questioned why it was in there and he said "to smell good for you when I get home" and I kind of sat there thinking that I didn't remember when he'd smelled good coming home from work lately. I took the cologne out and left it in my car. Funny things is that on D-day when I caught him, I looked and found another bottle of a different cologne in that bag. Too bad I didn't go back and check later on again. I trusted that he would NEVER do that. ugh!
Charlie
This message has been edited by hurt288 on Dec 1, 2004 7:57 PM
El,
You ask, “Did you know?” This is a hard question to answer because I believe there are degrees to which a person knows or suspect and then denial plays a huge roll in what we allow to enter our deductive processes. When the therapist made this blanket statement, “The Betrayed Always Knows.” she did not take into account the thought processes of a betrayed during deception and then how we put two and two together afterwards in a sense rewriting what we actually thought or believed.
Getting back to “Did I know?” On a very basic sub level of nagging doubt way in the back of my mind that my defensives immediately squelched with denial, YES I knew. Does that mean that because I had an inkling way back at the beginning that could have been disproved as easily as it could have been validated that every single person being cheating on should have that same inkling, HELL NO! That is utterly ridiculous. Our spouses are all different and some our better at hiding things then others. My H has had a problem with trust, for years he suspected me of cheating on him, non of his fears were based on truth. Because he feared being cheated on for years if I had finally proved him true would it make the years he feared it true, NO! Just as they still are not true because it never happened and never will.
A Waywards behavior has many other valid explanations. You mention that you attributed your husband’s behavior to his on going battle with depression, this was probably true. It is my belief that WS’s are not people healthy of mind, so it makes sense that you would come to the conclusion that he was depressed, he was. BTW my H has battled depression for years also; you get used to it and learn to just ride out the wave. I know that my 2nd thought after the inkling that he had found some one else was that he was using drugs again. For me this was a much more plausible explanation to my nagging doubts and I went with it. This proved not to be the case, he was drinking very heavily giving me a reason to attribute his behavior to this other then infidelity.
Going on to Denial. Denial is not such an awful thing. We need denial to help us to work our way up to things and not have to deal with them full force right away, which as we know can be way too much. You mention your having suspicions 6 months prior because of comment you made. Could it be that this comment set the wheels in motion for you H to start self evaluating and owning his behavior? Giving him and you time B4 D-day to prepare, whether you realize it or not. For me the 9 month period between my first suspicion and D-day although extremely difficult served a purpose for both my H and me. I switched my focus entirely to him and he began to think about what he was doing. Had we not had this very important time prior to D-day I believe our out come would have been very different. I have said over and over timing is everything. So Denial does not really make our life a lie, it just gives an opportunity take it in slowly. As long as a person does not get too comfortable in denial and ignore the obvious I see no reason to condemn denial as living a lie.
Ami
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