I am, as of April 3rd, 4 years post D-day Number One. There was another completely unexpected, extremely brutal and, I must say, brilliantly executed, D-Day 6 months after the first one. I have since discovered that my wife's physical affair was ongoing even when she denied it was and was pretending to reconcile with me; exposing me to HIV (which I thankfully still test negative for) from her poxy chronically alcoholic partner in the process.

My wife was totally unrepentant and chronically lied about the fact of it. So I divorced her in September last year; at the first moment I had the strength to do it. It was a vital, and necessarily long-delayed step, in my recovery.

She was dumped by the OM within 6 months and from then on---to give herself a better "look" with our 11 young children--had tried a devious and completely insincere and unconvincing come-back with me. She is now without a man; in particular, any man she could hope to use to replace me as the close-in father I was to my children during our marriage. Even the sex (brilliant) she had with me she admits is irreplaceable.

The love-loss trauma I experienced immediately after the blinding shock of D-Day One was early fatal. Not that I ever contemplated suicide. I just wasted away and lost nearly all of my natural immunity for 2 years, during which I suffered three serious attack of pneumonia in a previously perfectly healthy chest. Previously to that I has been---and now thankfully am again---very fit indeed.


Three very powerful undeniable resources saved me;

1. My Lord JESUS Christ; who I put first in everything.

2. The superb self-help book "THE LOVE TRAUMA SYNDROME" by Dr Richard B. Rosse. In my case, this masterwork beat any counsellor or therapist, including MDs and every other psychiatrist,hands down. And I had read every (some 10) well-known other and recommended book extant (up to 2003) on affairs, and trauma and recovery).

3. ST JOHN'S WORT: 3000mgm per day; for me was far and away superior to serotonin potentiators and every other anti-depressant that was tried on me by my well-meaning physician.

Those were the resources.

I am now very fully recoverd, with the additional help of such real friends who did not ditch me when they saw me go down and almost die.

Recovery IS possible, but it is a very long process. And one requiring great realism and self discipline; which are, it must be said, very very difficult to muster in the terrible trauma state induced by love-loss from adultery.

That said, Rosse does say in his classic book that recovery is greatly speeded if

(a) the marriage has been of shorter duration (less that 2 years); and

(b) if the betrayed spouse finds or is naturally led to a new and genuine lover (not by throwing oneself into a "revenge affair" !).


Unfortunatly, my marriage had been 17 years long and I had a huge natural grieving process to go through. That process was completed only 5 months ago. But REALLY completed, thank the Lord !!

I urge you to consider all of the above resources; especially, and MOST imortantly, before you make the disastrous mistake of wasting time denying reality and your already gravely depleted energy trying to achieve the Impossible; that being, attempting to forgive an unrepentant and/or remorseless adulterer.

Forgiveness is totally untransactable in the absence of repentance and fully-expressed remorse on the part of the betrayer. But, note very carefully please, even if forgiveness IS transactable and granted, the achieving of it in no way obliges the betrayed spouse to accept the betrayer back as a marriage or sexual partner,no matter how repentant the betrayer appears to be. Every option, including of course divorce, is fully open to the betrayed spouse and needs to be very carefully considered.

The beytrayed spouse's recovery takes a real and deep renewal of the whole self independently of what happens to, or comes from, the adulterer. And the time for the highly necessary recovery can extend for some years beyond the transaction of forgiveness; and that time is, in my experience and opinion, rarely best spent in the close company (including sexual company) of the betrayer; with some betrayers having a perverse penchant for deliberately impeding full recovery and renewal of the betrayed spouse(as evidenced all over these Boards).

Dr Rosse tells us compassionately, personally, precisely and professionally HOW to get that renewal.

In bucket loads !!

Bless you.

MILES

My d-day (number 1) was also on April 3, 2002. Happy aniversary to us.

Such couldn't be more macabre if our wives had nuked us on April the FIRST !!!

Now, please let us here all know what stage of recovery YOU are at. I did find it helpful to get myself to summarize my trauma history and progress through it up to the present.

It's share-and-share-alike here; especially of the so-called "hard bits".

The Doctor is In.

Blessings

MILES

.....through Him who loved us !"

This is me, on Top of it All in the Southern Alps of New Zealand this time last year. Getting fit for my run up to the divorce. Mount Cook is in the right background. The mountain I'm standing on is Mount Oliver--the first peak climbed by Sir Edmund Hillary, conqueror of Everest when I was 10 years old.

As you can see, I was bathed in beautiful light and felt just FINE !!!!

us.

GREAT PHOTO!! Wow, Miles, you're (literally) on top of the world! Somehow, I pictured you as much older than you appear.

I echo your comments about the Love Trauma Syndrome book. I will re-read it. Another good one is "Forgiving The Unforgiveable" by Beverly Flanigan.

Glad to see you are back on the boards & hope you stick around!

(On an unrelated note, google: L. Ray Smith & email me your thoughts....)

Thank you, Blue.

But never go by appearances when transfiguration is in process!

And please note, neither John nor Peter, nor Elijah nor Moses are evident in the foto of me surmounting one of my earthly Rocks. I'm not so sure about the presence of the Lord in it, however; He has an infinitude of ways of manifesting as The Light.


Moving on, I'm interested to know how old you expected me to look, Blue. And why ? My real birthday was 1976,if being born again counts in your belief. And I'm said to be looking younger by the decade.

The art of staying truly alive is to live from the inside out; from the Spirit to the Material. And, at its best, back again from the latter.

Of course, because it addressed the most crucial aspect of my post-marital dilemma (correction "agony"), "Forgiving the Unforgivable" is in my love-trauma library, and was very thoroughly read.

But,I say it again, the granting of Forgiveness--as a transaction--is conditional upon repentance and showing of remorse on the part of the offender. Which immediately raises a problem with the title of Beverly Flanagan's book; inasmuch as the only unforgivable offence is the one which the offender refuses to repent from. No sweating or agonising over that by the one offended-against can change the fact; that such an offence IS unforgivable; and that through no fault of the victim of it.

My Love trauma library, as a very healthy offset, contains also many many very beautiful Life-affirmating works of art,literary and fine,on Love---altruistic and romantic(and even e-r-o-t-i-c)---which, contrarily, my wife rarely dipped into; and then only to lampoon my interest in it as, wait for it, "perverted". And we're talking about Rembrandt,Titian, Raphael, Leonardo da Vinci Michaelangelo, William Turner, Rodin, Maillol,Ingres,Caravaggio, Rubens et al of that ilk, and the very greatest of the modern painters and photographers.

Given even the uplifting power of the amazing works on Love of such Greats as listed above, in true Living

"......we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are unseen. For the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are unseen are eternal"


God, be sure of it, looks on the Heart. And only the Heart.

And here is one of my aerial portrayals of our highest mountain here in New Zealand; Mount Cook.

A VERY unforgiving peak indeed. But, nevertheless, highly enjoyable !

Wow Ami, Thank you, That was just what I needed to read right now. Particularly how you developed the thinking towards the bottom of your posting.
I feel in fact that you and Miles are actually pretty close in your thinking. I think you did explain how remorse is a door to forgiveness for the person who has committed the crime. And yes, you also explain how you can forgive without judgementally demanding remorse from someone like a WS.
I suspect that Miles is only a small distance away from where you take this thought and indeed may be there already now.
For to be truly happy, even if we separate/ divorce etc. then we must be able to leave behind the "obstacle" you describe.
For me I have felt this obstacle recently and it seems to change and manifest sometimes as a sort of barrier in my mind between me and WS. And yes I see remorse on the other side so I am lucky to see that she wants to break through to me. I am also nurturing forgiveness in my heart to see if I can work from the other side myself.
It feels something like I am almost sort of absorbing the obstacle/ barrier into me. That is how I can envisage it. I feel for sure also that if I did not do this then something would be lingering with me forever. And I must be able to deal with this if I am to move on .. either with our wihtout my WS I need to do this. Certainly I think the same process is needed if you stay together or move on. The danger otherwise is that we try to force something away out of sight and if we do this it has a likelihood to come back later twice as big and bad I think. So dealing with it, sort of making it part of your change and growth must be the way I feel.
I hope this makes some sense - I think I have rambled again.
Thank you both for your postings which both helped me today.
I wish both you and Miles all happiness,
Jerry

Just wanted to comment on what an awesome picture!  Thanks for sharing it with us Miles.

Take care....Carol~

Hi Miles,

like you my d-day was same date as yours, April 3, 2002. My wife met the OM via a Yahoo chat room. The A lasted from 11/01 to 4/02, just short of our 10 year aniversary.

We started seeing a MC immediately after the discovery. In the following July 02, we took a two week vacation to Canada to celebrate our 10 year aniversary.

My 2nd d-day was 4 months later when I caught my wife and the OM sending emails to each other. At first they started chatting using Yahoo IM but it then turned into emails to between their Yahoo accounts. But my wife did not know that I had already hacked her Yahoo email. When confronted with my evidence, I told my wife either it's going to stop now or there's the door. I mentioned that there will be no third time, this is your final warning. In addition, our MC was quite upset with my wife. He said to my wife that she has hurt me even more and all progress made to date is now gone.

THings are better now but even after 4 yrs I find it in my heart not to forgive just yet. The gloom I felt has been slowly lifting for the last four years. Given some other family issues with other relatives, the A seems minor now. However, the lying and cheating still hurt.

On the day before the 4 aniversary of d-day, wife and I had a huge fight. During the argument, wife said she was going to call a lawyer and this time, I wasn't even afraid of divorce. The argument was not about the A but I think our emotions were on edge due to the approaching date. Cooler heads prevailed and there will be no divorce. I did mention to my wife about my lack of fear of divorce. I think that statement surprised her. THis is her 2nd marriage for her, my 1st.

Kevin

Thank you for the history. But I cannot tell from it whether the affair was physical or not.

My wife's certainly was; I discovered her with the OM, very unexpectedly (on no premonitory suspicion at all), in flagrante delicto. Not an experience I would wish on any husband. Ever.

But it certainly let me know all I needed to.Including the very real risk I was at of being HIV infected by my unsuspectingly continuing to have sex with her between her still secret bouts with the OM; which risk, extraordinarily, my wife brushed off as no risk at all; and that with me being the MD!

It appears from your history that you wife's affair was an email one only; not a physical one--the opportunity for which your history does not suggest existed.

That is not to stir things anew at this time, Kevin, but simply to point out possible differences in magnitude of trauma you and I experienced; and to suggest one of several possible reasons your marriage was able to be maintained; in contrast to mine, which wasn't.

That "nothing (physical) happened" is a defence commonly claimed by adulterers against justification for, or the offended spouse's inclination towards, divorce. And that defence sometimes holds sway;
as does, extraordinarily,the one that there was no donation ("exchange") of bodily fluid; that is, "pollution" (biblically-speaking)of the wife; which I have dubbed the "No-DNA-Donation Defence".

The more than occasional acceptance of that defence goes to show that doubtful paternity does strike deep in a husband's heart. And what a relief to him know for sure, on his now-honest wife's testimony, that there is really and truly no cause for any biologically arousable angst. Or cause for divorce.

Potential donation of RNA (as human immunodeficiency virus)is however, another issue altogether. A life and death one, and indefensible as a deliberately-taken risk to the life of an unsuspecting spouse.

Thank you for reviewing the unconditional forgiveness option; which, as a matter of choice, is of course able to be tried by anyone, at any time.

With respect, even on logical--not only biblical--grounds, I see no possibility of it working for an unbeliever or a believer.

I say this because the occasion for forgiveness is predicated upon an offence, repentance from which is the necessary ground for being sorry (ie, remorseful) for; and the outward signs of being-sorry the evidence allowing of the judgment that forgiveness be granted.

Yes, there is judgment involved. But, note, not so-called"judgmentalism". Even the Courts of the land acknowledge expressed remorse as grounds for mitigation of penalty in sentence

As does God Himself. And rightly so.

Who are we to contradict those authorities ? And who can or should abide and automatically forgive a flinty-faced, guilty mocker of Right ? Which is exactly what an unrepentant adulterer is.

But, Yes, putting oneself above God is, sad to say, almost all the Rage these days.

Dear Miles,
May the suffering of all people be eased and may all people be well and happy,
Jerry

Miles:

While there is credence in the argument that repentance is part of reconciliation process, I'm not sure that repentance forbears forgiveness for Christians or otherwise.

For example, most Christians believe that Christ died to redeem them from their sins, not only before they committed the sins, but before they were even born. They teach that Christ paid the cost of all sin for all time. In addition, Christians often hold to the teaching "forgive your enemies". For these things to be true, there must be some logical disconnect between the forgiveness and the repentance of the offender.

I agree that reconciliation however, cannot take place without repentance of the offender. For example, since your wife has not repented of her affairs and her deception, you were unable to reconcile your relationship with her and the marriage was ended. While it is still possible for you to forgive her (i.e. pass on the ultimate punishment may feel she deserves), you are unlikely to restore your relationship beyond any measure that is necessary for the practical requirements of being a father to your children. In the same way many Christians believe (and the Bible teaches) that the sign of a true believer, among many things is the sincerity of their repentance, and their willingness to adhere to Christ's teachings.

I personally believe that forgiveness is not depended on any act from the offender, but reconciliation is fully dependent on such an act.

TomJ

You can forgive (and I believe must, in order to heal), but that doesn't mean you forget or accept what was done.

Vanilla

Miles,

My wifes' affair was physical. I found proof via a nice little porno tape that my wife and the OM made together while in a hotel room. That was all the proof I needed. My wife was working 40-50 hours per week and going to school at night for her MBA. I guess she did not have time for us but she had time for an affair.

When I told my mom that wife and I might divorce, she said how did she (i.e. wife) find the time?

I made the wife get tested for all STDs before I would even touch her. The OM tried to convince my wife to have a weekend holiday while telling me it was a business trip. My wife declined.

Unfortunately the images I have witnessed are forever in my mind. After the 2nd d-day, I almost attempted suicide. I did not follow through since I know it would have hurt my family but I did not care if it hurt my wife. I was in therapy for almost a year when I finally came out of the deep depression. My job was the only thing I could control. However, I could not deal with any confrontations at work. Sometimes the day would be almost like a dream to me.

Even after the 2nd d-day, the OM attempted occasional contact with my wife. I know because she told me. After the 4th or 5th time at contact, I called the OM's wife and told her everything from 4/2002 up to that date. There has been no contact since.

She met the OM on Yahoo Chat and he lives about 15 miles from us. He's married (or was) with 2 kids. What's funny is he works for his sister-in-law. I chuckle every time since he if got divorced, would his ex-wife tell her sister (his boss)?

So it has been a difficult 4 years. We are still together but our lives are forever changed. Often I wonder if I have made the right choice. Our wedding aniversary means nothing to me now. In fact, on the 2nd d-day, I burned our wedding photo album and threw my wedding ring into the lake. I have a replacement ring, but it's not the ring from our "special" day.

Kevin

Dear Kevin,
Thank you for sharing your story. I really felt for you. I also noticed your question about not knowing if you have made the right choice to stay together or separate. This is surely one of the big questions that comes up here. I wondered how to look at this and my feelings are as follows:
- It is better not to worry too much as in some ways we will never know the future outcome of our actions and so we should probably not worry about that .. after all who does know for sure.
- We should examine our motives inside when we make such decistions and if we are calm headed and know in our hearts what we feel and, most importantly, are concerned for the greater happiness of all concerned.. Then we are probably doing the right thing whatever the decision.
This is how I am looking at it. In addition I am doing one more thing I am living for now. I am not trying to do all the re-writing of the past and am trying to stop myself doing all the "what ifs" and "if onlys". So, my approach is to simply try to be happy here and now. And really that is ok for me.
May you and your wife be happy,
Jerry

PS: For clarification: My living in the now does not mean I am being some selfish uncaring person who doesn't care about the consequences of what I do now. No. I know that what I do has far reaching consequences and this is why I am ever more careful now of what I do and how I live. This awareness helps me act well in my day to day and makes me happier.

Dear Kevin

Tears welled in me when I read the courageously described history of your traumas.

First, I think I should say that to depend on one's spouse, even a continuously faithful one, for all the love we need is a desperate and unnecessary risk to take. The only dependable love is the love of God. His love never fails.

Husbands and wives should therefore always work and pray to see their spouse as He sees them. Then we will understand better, amongst other things, the importance of the commandments saliently sequenced as verses 13 and 14 in chapter 20 of the book of Exodus as follows:

"Thou shalt not kill" and "Though shalt not commit adultery".

I am persuaded that it is not possible to commit adultery against a spouse you love; or perhaps have ever loved.

Adultery is spiritual murder, destroys the original marriage, and kills human, especially married, love. Unfortunately in doing so it also engenders terrible and terrorising sentimentality--sometimes fatal--in the principal victim of it. This sentimentality leads to unrealistic craving for what has been permanently destroyed; that being, the marriage.

This matter is so important Kevin, that I would like you to email me so that I can by return send you the extremely penetrating and helpful writing "The Pain of Adultery" by Shmeuli Boteach(as a MS-word file of about 100KB). It will help you greatly, I'm sure; as I discern that you are still plainly and greatly suffering from it.

This offer of supply of that text is extended to everyone else in such need here.

Sincerely

Miles

>I am persuaded that it is not possible to commit adultery against a spouse you love; or perhaps have ever loved.

According to the book of Jeremiah in the Bible, the people of Israel are accused of adultery because they followed other gods. Since their acts are compared to adultery, does this mean that the people of Israel never loved God, or that they would never love him again? If their unfaithfulness to God can be compared to adultery, then what about our unfaithfulness to Him? Is it not the same as adultery? If you were unfaithful to God today, then does this mean that you never loved Him in the first place?

Adultery is not an act of love, and it brings a person's history into question, but to make this extreme and generalized judgement is an interpretation of the Bible that needs to be reconciled with other Bible teachings regarding reconciliation and forgiveness before it would make any real sense.

TomJ

I don't post too often, but I have to comment on this:

"I am persuaded that it is not possible to commit adultery against a spouse you love; or perhaps have ever loved."

I may be misinterpreting, but I am not persuaded of your assertion. Satan uses any stonghold he can in one's life to completely turn him upside down and render him useless. I believe that he attacks even when we may be at our closest ever in relationship to God and our mate if he has any area to seep in. In the early days of recovery from my H's affair, I went through a bible study by Beth Moore, "When Godly People do Ungodly Things". (It is also in book form and worth picking up) It really helped me to understand how my husband, who loved me and God and had been seeking to serve Him, could have an affair. In a way, it would have been easier to believe he really didn't love me, but that wasn't the case.

Tiffany,

My wife recently completed that same Bible study and found a lot of help in it. In addition, I've read (and listened to) Erwin Lutzer's book and sermon series of a similar title and thought it was also very helpful in the same way.

TomJ

"My wife's certainly was; I discovered her with the OM, very unexpectedly (on no premonitory suspicion at all), in flagrante delicto. Not an experience I would wish on any husband. Ever."

I had the same experience as you with walking in on them and I would NEVER say that my pain is greater than anybody elses because of that. To do so is to invalidate their feelings. We each have our own pain whether the affair was an EA or a PA or how we found out. Regardless the person you loved betrayed you and lied to you!! Yes there are things such as STD's that one must deal with after and I wonder just how much more bitter you would be Miles if you were in my shoes and on the receiving end of one. However even if the affair was an EA there are other things that are painful. None of this is easy!

"It appears from your history that you wife's affair was an email one only; not a physical one--the opportunity for which your history does not suggest existed."

I find this comment belittles those who have spouses who have "only" had an EA. I hope that isn't your intention

That is not to stir things anew at this time, Kevin, but simply to point out possible differences in magnitude of trauma you and I experienced; and to suggest one of several possible reasons your marriage was able to be maintained; in contrast to mine, which wasn't.

It is just so wrong to compare the "magnitude of trauma" against anybody. This isn't a competition it is real and it hurts like hell regardless of who you are.

Kid

Miles,

Nice to read this thread. I remember you from years ago. I picked up the book "The Love Trauma Syndrome" because of you. Great book.

I am 6 1/2 years past discovery day. In fact I went through many d-days: discovery of my husband's one-way infatuation with a woman at work day, discovering my husband was considering divorce day, discovering the one-way infatuation was actually an affair all along day, after a "tough love" separation discovering that my husband planned to definitely divorce me day.

I am now 4 1/2 years post divorce and happily remarried to a wonderful man for almost two years. That's my quick update.

Miles, I, too, have been frustrated by the lack of literature for the betrayed and abandoned. In fact, I decided to write a book myself. Who knows if it will ever get published? I have some great chapter titles, such as: Why you may have preferred widowhood to this; When your betrayer rewrites your marital story; when your betrayer gets religious; Understanding La La Land; When therapy makes you crazy; shattered beliefs; coping with injustice; etc....

I plan to write two or three chapters on the "forgiveness" issue and challenges. Have you read Janis Abrahms Spring's latest book, "How Can I Forgive You?" She takes an approach that may intrigue you, Miles. She sees true forgiveness as needing a repentant offender who takes responsibility for the pain inflicted upon the faithful partner.

Since there are so many ideas about what forgiveness means or includes, her premise is that when the offender refuses to repent and repair the damage, she recommends NOT forgiving. (She also calls this "cheap forgiveness" which she believes is unhealthy.) Instead, she offers an alternative which she calls "Acceptance". Sort of like finding a way to make peace with the injury, let go of the anger, without feeling like you have to grant forgiveness to the one who betrayed you.

While I don't agree with her 100%, if you haven't read her book yet, you might enjoy it.

One unique approach that I hope to take in my book is to emphasize God's love of justice and his ability to mete it out. The only way I have found to let go of my anger (and that has been in increments) has been to "transfer" the responsibility for the justice and discipline of my ex-spouse from my "jurisdiction" into God's. God's way of justice may not be in my way or in my timing -- but it is a sure thing. He WILL eventually open my ex-husband's eyes. He WILL eventually "reward" him according to his deeds. He WILL reap what he has sown.

Somehow that brings me comfort and helps me let go of the offenses. I give them over to God, the ultimate judge. By not taking matters into my own hands, I figure I am leaving room for the wrath of God (Romans 12). For me this is not just a one time thing. I end up needing to let go of specific injustices, sometimes repeatedly with the same injuries, and other times regarding new ones. I do this until the matter is settled in my heart.

Does that make any sense?

If you have any other ideas, I'd love to read them. How have you dealt with your anger?

I know you have given much thought to this.

I am an empty nester now. Miles, I cannot imagine going through what you have on top of having so many children still growing up and needing you. Wow. What a challenge. I can at least limit my contact with my ex husband, since we don't need to "trade" our kids.

You look like you have kept yourself in terrific shape. You seem like a really great guy. Some girl will be lucky to find you.

Wishing you all the best,
~JeanBabe

Jean,

I am with you in letting go, and putting it in Gods hand...

I look forward to your book.


Tom,

great post!!!!!!

Pat

Dear Tom and Ami

One irony of your "analogy" is that I am Jewish, and my ex-wife is not.

Yes, God did love Israel as a people, and as "His gifts and callings are without repentance", so that His love is immutable, covenant love, and will never be withdrawn.

But there is no proof adducible from the Good Book that all individuals in ancient Israel loved God; in fact there is a mass of clear evidence that vast numbers of that people did not, despite His commandement that "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy soul, with all thy mind and all thine heart". Hence His judgments upon Israel, including its dispersal and continuing persecution.

That is THE analogy, if one is being looked for here.

The same Book being quoted makes it pre-eminently plain that what God required of Israel was grateful obedience; which, in the best human reading of the word includes, perhaps amounts to, Love in its right expression---unsentimental, without slop and so-called "slip-ups".

The analogy attempted, above, to be struck in respect of adulterers and their legitimately questionable love, is shakey to say the least of it.

Perhaps the best answer to the apparent refutation of my post concerning "having ever loved" are the questions

"Can adultery ever be an expression of love ? Even frustrated love ? Or refused love ?" and

"If you discerned that your prospective spouse was prone to committing adultery in the event of you marrying them, would you believe they loved you from the outset, and if not, whether they would just somehow grow-into loving you ? By your blindly determined efforts to get them to, perhaps ?"

I believe that some betrayal sufferers here need to look very carefully through their now better-adjusted, higher resolution retrospectoscope and ask themselves a third question

"Were the signs of lovelessness there in my spouse before I marrried them"

And perhaps a fourth one

"Has it ever happened that one person married another without having actually loved them ? Is such possible ? And what evidence of that might be persuasive or determining in judgment of the fact ?" The hard evidence of adultery, perhaps ?

In the malestrom of apparent love-loss from adultery, with or without desertion, it is just too easy and quasi-comforting to be wishy-washy about hard evidence of prior lovelessness.

Some people even marry so that they work-out their hatred against a real live person whom they pick as one they will be able to be subtly or even overtly scapegoated for sufferings inflicted upon them in their childhood or later. The short but great treatise "THE ANGRY BOOK", by Theodore Isaac Rubin (Yes, another Jewish and probably pretty hard-nosed MD; but very qualified one) explains, simply and vividly, the dynamics of that particular perversion.

Certainly, fits of hatred (for one or other reason--as Rubin explains---usually wrongly addressed) of one spouse against another, do occur, and these are sometimes overcome; sometimes by Love. But as a recurring abberation, being not mere outbursts of anger, they are a very adverse portent for the healthy survival of a love relationship.

Itzakh Shamir, Prime Minister of Israel in the 1980s, reminded me of an excellent working principle when---speaking of enemies of Israel---he said

"We don't go by what they say, we go by what they DO"

Verbal assurances, even protestations and/or promises of love and fairness from the Other Side simply didn't cut it for him; for me neither. And, I believe, also not for God. Love is a doing word. A verb; not verbal.

I repeat adultery is never a mistake, or an even hateful "slip-up". It is spiritual murder. Period.

Hence Jesus' sole Exception provision for divorce.






PS; I am now short of time, but I do undertake to write a final brief addition to my already expressed views on Repentance and Forgiveness; partly in relation to Reconcilation as touched upon in your above post on those subjects, Tom. Thankyou.

Anyone comparing themselves to God here ? If so, please let us know how, and why, you're going about it. It sounds like an infinitely unprofitable past-time to me. Just on the face of it.

I am not sure if I dare say anything into this thread now... But anyway here goes:
My feeling is just a feeling and a commentary. I am feeling here that perhaps we are now getting rather tied up with our views about religion, god, faith, spirit etc.. and may now be missing the point what we are trying to do at the heart of this site. I just wonder if we stepped back at this point and let this go a bit then we may be better equipped to do the healing we are here to do. Before long I can see we might end up fighting over religion and who's god is better or even more likely who is more righteous etc... Can I suggest, simply, that we let it go now and move on. Each one of us will have their own religious views and for each of those people that religion can be a wonderful and powerful aid to happiness. Perhaps we should simply accept that each different person will have a different path to tread in that way and let them tread it. I don't want to force anyone to tread my path and I don't expect them to force me. So, where we make statements related to our religion they should surely only be made as gentle and helpful thoughts and ideas and not laid down as necessarily being the only path.
May we all find our own paths to happiness,
Jerry

Miles,

I was curious if you have ever read that book I mentioned before, "How Can I Forgive You?" FYI Janis A Spring is Jewish. That is why I thought you might appreciate and identify with her new approach.

Just curious.

~JeanBabe

Jerry

I fully agree. Everyone is free to choose their own path in the name (including of course their own) of anyone they like, and to tread it in any manner they like. Obviously, nobody can “force” them to take any other, least of all by tapping on a keyboard and uploading their opinions as postings on these Boards.

Please look back into my postings, and you will see that I have not said that the path I am treading is the only path there is. Patently, Isaiah and Jesus Himself declared that there are the many paths that men and women will take. Some of those paths are described as "broad", another "narrow"; whilst others could be called middling. It is also very clear that God grants every human being free choice to take them. The evidence of which is everywhere.

“Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the Lord pondereth the hearts” (Proverbs 21:2)


Where those ways or paths lead one is, of course, the subject of other statements (opinions if you will) of God, personally and through His prophets in the Bible that I have chosen to believe speaks of Right.

I am saying this because I think it helpful that contributors and visitors here understand something of the central tenents of the belief systems of posters here. It is plainly helpful to know them, and it is good that some of the contributors to this thread have honestly stated theirs.

The path I have taken happens to be one laid down by Jesus.

My arguably OK stance (apparent from my postings) towards adultery, remorse, repentance, forgiveness, and reconciliation as against divorce, would be incomprehensible without my having made my beliefs clear; just as an ardent evolutionist’s categorizing of Man as an animal only would on existing evidence result in him being classed as crazy without his belief in the theories of Darwin being somewhat explained.

Of course, is not my place to explain or criticize, least of all to any sincere believers on these Boards, anyone’s personal acceptance or rejection of Mohamed, Buddah, or even John Lennon, as examples of religious leaders. Free and fair representation of the views of followers of those leaders would not disturb me or inspire any attempted “judgment” of their writings or them personally by me if all they were doing was explaining their beliefs and actions deriving from those beliefs. As it has been my sincerely helpful aim to explain mine.

That said, Rosse does say in his classic book that recovery is greatly speeded if

(a) the marriage has been of shorter duration (less that 2 years);

I cannot disagree with anything more! This is the most inappropriate statement I have EVER read on this website. I know Miles that this may not be your belief, but I was so angered by this statement it wants me to find this Rosse and set him/her straight. How dare he/she imply that anyone's pain is less than anothers. Again Miles, I am not saying in anyway that this is your opinion.

I was married 5 months when I found out about my H's A, I was crushed. This marriage is my second marriage, and believe me when I say that I would go through the divorce 10 times over from my first H, than to endure the heartache I felt when I found out about my 2nd H's A.

Dawn

Dear Dawn

With respect, I should point out that Dr Rosse was referring to the time taken for Recovery; not to the magnitude of the intital response to the Loss-of-Love Trauma from the adultery; the latter of which can be extremely severe in a marriage of any duration at all. As you have experienced.

As Dr Rosse also says, for a number of reasons other than the duration of the marriage at issue those two parameters do not always interact in negative or positive reinforcement in respect of the acute and/or chronic symptoms experienced by the betrayed spouse.

Might I add too, that there may be reasons that your re-exposure to Love Loss Trauma so early in your second marriage could be expected to be more devastating in their effects on you than did the trauma from your love-loss in your first marriage.

One such reason could be that your trauma syndrome from the first marriage had not been treated fully or resolved completely before you entered into your second marriage; and bacause of that your various natural resistance and defences to the second trauma therefore gravely prejudiced,if not completely disabled.

This is especially pertinent here I think, as Dr Rosse also makes it very clear in his book that Love Trauma Syndrome is (1) often not diagnosed and treated as it should be; often being mis-diagnosed as being "simple" reactive depression; and (2) if treatment is too long delayed, a chronic syndrome results which is, by my reading of Dr Rosse'ss experience, very dangerous to health and even to life itself.

I say this notwithstanding that Dr Rosse also observes that the duration of a Love Traumna Syndrome from infidelity is often greatly shortened if the beytrayed spouse finds another partner with whom they enter into a truly romantic and satisfying new relationship; obviously including good, even better, Sex.

I do NOT think that Dr Rosse, in making that observation, was envisaging (much less prescribing), as a "recouping", life-recovering new relationship, a relationship entered into before the betrayed partner had had time and appropriate treatment to heal their trauma from betrayal in their previous relationship.

Only this morning, I re-read Dr Rosse's opinion and advice on this point, and I agree with him that entry into a new relationship before the time is truly right can lead to the importing into that new relationship inappropriate expectations and unresolved trauma legacies which can stress the new relationship unbearably.

Also, as a common pattern of individual human behaviour, unless highly objective, often assisted analysis is brought to bear on them,we humans tend to repeat our mistakes; and such repetition of mistakes is far more likey to be uncontrollable and when one is suffering from the multitude of judgment-disturbing diabilities that severe, inadequately addressed or only partially treated psychological trauma induces.

Putting it more succinctly for you, in the field of Love Trauma, it is very important for the sufferer from it not to blindly or inadverently, let alone willingly, risk adding Insult to Injury; even on the "best" professional advice that the risk of doing so is inconsiderable.

In respect of that,in your case,following and as a direct result of your second experience of marital infidelity, Disappointment also will have been powerfully operative against you in a multitude of ways.

In short, where your expectation was of Success in your second marriage, to be dealt Failure in such devastating degree quite naturally will have triggered a despairing "Here I Go Again" response in you. A Worst Nightmare scenario indeed; and one in which self-blame can so easily become powerfully activated to further diminish your self-esteem and your resistance to and potential recovery from the trauma, and to destroy your joy; even your very life.

Your present situation can fairly be described as a very considerable psychological going onto physical emergency, from which, it is right to advise everyone here, there is a significant mortality. Especially if you are in fact suffering from--God forbid--chronic Love Trauma Syndrome.

So please, Dawn, I strongly recommend you buy or borrow a copy of Dr Rosse's book; at least to check out my statements on these Boards concerning his analyses, insights, recommendations from his vast clinical experience (and incidentally his own experience of profound love loss as a junior doctor) and arguably very sound opinions on psychological trauma, a subject on which he is regarded world-wide as a leading authority (Dr Rosse being the discoverer and symptom characteriser of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder in Vietnam veterans in his work as psychiatirst at the Veterans Administration Hospital in Washington DC, Maryland).

I gather from your above post that you are still married, even possibly still living with your husband. But whatever the situation there, I will continue do anything I can to help---for truly useful purposes, for you and anyone else here---you help you identify, address and overcome any and all of the causes of your obviously terrible suffering.

That said, I believe that in this now very high-priority endeavour you need the urgent assistance of the most expert trauma professional you can get to.

Even Dr Rosse himself.

Warm regards

Miles

Miles,
Thank you for your very informative response. I do agree with some of the information you provided about Dr. Rosse, however there are points which I still have to disagree with, but that is something to which I do not wish to engage.

Yes, I am still married to and living with my H. As far as the possibility of me not completely dealing with my past this is not the case. I was IC for over a year, not only did I go to IC, I also attended group therapy. I went on to work with the Cabinet for Families and Children for a short time, as a volunteer, speaking to employees of this organization along with the employees of Protection and Permanency in our State about the affects of Domestic Abuse.

Again, thank you Miles for the information you provided.

Dawn

Hello,
Am I reading correctly that you took 3,000mgm of St. John's Wort? Is that amount safe? Thanx, E

Hi Edie

Yes, you read it right: 3000(three thousand)mgm, i.e. 3grams, of standardised dried extract of the plant leaf. The active principle is Hypericin, a complex, reddish natural oil.

I took it as a slow release preparation,in a once-daily dose.
Lower doses, in the 30 to 300mgm range 3 times per day, did not work for me.

The famous, but in humans uncommon, side effect of St Johns Wort is skin photosensitivity; which is why the plant, Hypericum perforatum from which the dried extract is prepared is classed as a noxious weed in livestock pastures.

Hypericum extracts produce very few side effects in humans. Some very recent research (results reported early this year, I believe) has come up with an interesting new one; the inhibition of the conduction of testicular secretion, including the spermatozoa, from the epididymis of the testicle into the first section of the vas deferens which, at 11 inches in length, is by far the longest conduit of the ejaculatory pathway. This inhibition results in a moderate lowering of the volume of male ejaculate, and some highly variable corresponding diminution in male orgasmic satisfaction. In retrospect, I had this side effect which, before the abovementioned research report came out, I attributed to depression. The side effect appears to have an incidence of close to 100% at almost any dose. In the very high dose I took the effect was on occasions dramatic, but I did not as a matter of course or even once rely upon it for contraception, and would not recommend anyone should.

In comparison, for interested males, the incidence of gential tract side effects is much higher with tricyclic antidepressants and serotonin-active synthetic drugs. With the former group the effect can be so powerful that male orgasm is practically dry, with almost zero volumes of ejaculate being produced, resulting in a dramatic reduction of male orgasmic satisfaction; amounting to extreme frustration. The primary target glands for that side effect are undoubtedly the seminal vesicles and the prostate, with the testicles and vasa deferentia probably coming close seconds.

St Johns Wort also interferes with the action of certain other drugs for which the up-to-date pharmacological literature must be consulted. Paramountly, St Johns Wort must NOT be taken in conjunction with serotonin-active antidepressants. If it is, a quite serious "serotonin crisis", with dramatic pshychological, metabolic and neurological symptoms, can result.

All that said, St Johns Wort is considered the safest preparation for the treatment of moderate depression. In Germany it has been by far the most prescribed anti-depressant agent for several years, and I understand its popularity is rapidly increasing .

FYI...
I just want to say that recommending St Johns Wort and other natural medications is OK but recommending amount to take is a risky situation..Miles I read what you did was for you but by mentioning the amount some one may read here and not read any further down your post and take the same amount as you did...and that may not be good for them.

Edie,
As Miles says be careful ...
.If you want to take natural medications please seek help from a Dr that knows you and your situation....mixing some natural remedies and drugs may be dangerous to your health and produce a toxic reaction...so please talk to your Dr or health care professional...

My sister is on alot of natural remedies and her Dr have given her the OK but warned her about mixing drugs...and the natural remedies...

pat

Sorry edited for spelling...

Just to add to what Pat has already posted - the fact is we aren't here to dispense advice whether we claim to be a professional or not. Just because somebody states they are highly qualified in a certain area, this is the internet and anybody can pretend to be anybody.

If you need medical treatment seek out a doctor who can see you and treat you. If you require legal advice, then hire a lawyer. If you need a shoulder to cry on or support, then we are your place

This applies to myself as much as to any other professional. I would never attempt to provide tax or financial advice over the internet even though I am a qualified professional accountant. There are too many things I don't know about that individual and there are liability issues to consider.....

Kid