I think my H has gotten too comfortable. Since he is already doing many things, I guess now he feels it's OK to take a breath and relax a little. NOPE! It's not OK with me!!! For years I have been working overtime trying to keep my marriage going and when I finally give up, he decides to finally do something. Two months later he feels all safe & secure again and is slacking off. I still have not let him move back in completely and I won't until he does all I have asked. I cannot risk my heart again...I refuse! If he cant do those last little things I need done, then I dont need him or want him to come back. I am tired of compromising and I have waited long enough.
Last night I wrote him an email about my feelings. I reminded him of what I need him to do and why. If he really cares and is serious about reconcilliation then he will get his behind in gear and do them PRONTO!
I am also having some major triggers lately. They all started on H's birthday, it was his 40th this year. His mom had his party Sunday at the same place they had mine when I turned 40. It was like dejavue! Same place, same age, same scenario. It was too much for me. When I turned 40 I had just had d-day #1, he turns 40 and I just had d-day #2. Last time he said it was over and promised to do everything I needed done. Does this sound familiar to anyone? YEP!!! So you can see why I am hurting here. Yes, I see action this time, but last time there was some action too, until OW called him up and they restarted the A. How do I know that won't happen again? I dont know. UGH! This is so gosh-darn hard.
I am open to reconcilliation but I am not open to being a doormat ever again. I just keep saying to myself "boundaries...uphold your boundaries and keep communicating your needs", so that's what I am doing. But I will not wait forever for results from him. Maybe I want too much too soon, but I already feel I have waited too long. Last time I waited, and waited, and waited some more. I waited 4 years altogether for H to pull his head out of his a$$. Time is up! Life is just too short and I deserve better.
Take Care...Carol~
This message has been edited by pizzalady on Mar 7, 2007 2:36 PM
Carol, I sense you are feeling a bit down.. I don't know if this is because you are experiencing real setbacks (ie what is he slacking off with?) or if it is you feeling things are not as wonderful as you had in mind? You have had such a tough time of it there is also the possibility that you are just plain tired out.. believe me I know that place. My only concern from what you wrote is if you are expecting too much.. because that is something you can change in yourself.. Just remember that the world is just not fine and great all the time.
My solution would be to suggest you listen to your ever-true gut feeling. How do you feel about this .. I would like to bet if you listen to your feelings in your body then you will know where things are really at.. And.. they could be fine after all and it may be your head is simply going off into its own perfect movie of how life might be.. but .. usually is not for most of us anyway.
I feel like you need another English hug Carol ((((Carol)))) and perhaps one of those Englishe cups of tea too.
A book I read talks a little about this stage. When the WS starts to respond, the WS hurt can turn to anger. Now instead of the BS working to keep the WS, she is not sure she wants him anymore, or that she could ever really forgive and live on with him.
It is just another stage and will pass with time like the others.
Not to say you should let him slack off at all. He needs to continue his actions to show he's seriou. This needs to be a permanent change and not just something he was doing to pascify you until you calmed down.
I appreciate the hugs and the tea. It is so funny, but I was responding to your post on open as you were responding here to mine. How insync is that? LOL. Perhaps I could use a little of your English patience as well, lol.
I am a bit down because H has not done a few of the things I have asked, plus all the triggers lately. And one of the things he made an excuse for and I will not allow him to make excuses. He either does it, or he doesnt. Like Yoda says "Either do or do not, there is no try." And if he doesnt do it then he doesnt come back home. It's that simple.
I guess I am speaking to you in riddles. I will just come out and tell you what it is I want and expect from H. H put everything in his name only. I told him that as a sign of respect to me, and a desire for our marriage to be an equal partnership I want him to put my name on the house too. Well, H says since we plan on buying a new house my name will be on that house. This says to me that he doesnt get it. I dont care if we buy a new house next week or next year, I want my name on THIS house. This is where we live now...this is OUR house. If my name is not on it I do not feel like it is OUR house. Does this make sense? It does to me, and if it is what I need what is the problem? He looked into doing it but that is as far as it got and when I asked him what the company he contacted said that is when he gave me the excuse. Sorry, I am not going to sit here and take it. The old Carol would have said "ok honey, I guess you're right. I can wait and just have my name on the new house". Not anymore Jerry. I am not going to let him do this to me again. My name goes on the house! I get half the hosue whether my name is on it or not if we divorce, so that is not the issue.
<<He needs to continue his actions to show he's seriou. This needs to be a permanent change and not just something he was doing to pascify you until you calmed down.>>
My point exactly Trinity. Thank you. I feel he is slacking off because he now feels the threat of me leaving has passed. Well it hasnt passed, as you have stated as well. In time maybe it will, but right now I am still not sure I want to stay. And H making excuses only pushes me in that direction.
I just wanted you to know that I have been thinking about you. I hope that you stay strong because you have worked so hard to stand up for yourself. It is hard to keep doing though isn't it? The independent woman that we are becoming is great. I sometimes feel myself going back to my dependent ways and I always think about you. Your posts give me the strength to keep going.
You're right, it does seem like the WS can become complacent once they think the BS is "getting over it". In the time since D-day #1, I felt most loved and appreciated in the days immediately after #1 and #2, when he felt there was a real risk that I would kick him out. After #1, that died away when it became clear I was still there, still letting him go his own way. After #2 it was different, because like you I was prepared to be without him and he really did have to contemplate the prospect of life on his own. That put him in a panic and he tried very hard to do what I had been asking for so long. After a while the intensity faded, but he still knows what I need and responds immediately if he senses or I tell him I have a problem.
So like the others have said, stick to your guns and maintain your independence and distance. You are the new Carol who has looked at what life without him would be like and doesn't mind what she saw.
"If he cant do those last little things I need done, then I dont need him or want him to come back."
What scares me about that statement is that things on a list are measurable. He did or did not smoke pot. He did or did not put your name on the house.
but what really needs to happen is a change of heart. How do you measure if he really respects you?
How do you measure if he's committed? How do you measure if he sees you as a partner and not a housekeeper, errand-runner, babysitter? How do you measure if he loves YOU and not just love what services you provide for HIM?
And these need to be changes and behaviors over the long term... not just long enough to get back in the house.
He made serveral changes really, really fast and maybe (maybe) he's adjusting to all of them now, gearing up for the next round....OR maybe it was a really good act.
and the list is a fantastic idea and you deserve kudos for keeping your boundries and that is fantastic.
It's the next step and the things that are not so easily measured that worry me.
((((((((Carol))))))))
I understand the feelings and emotions behind what you wrote. You are so charged and happy that they understand what you want and need and they jump in...it's great. But, then they don't follow through on all that you asked. Why can't they just finish and do the entire list? For some WS, I think that they are just lazy and figure they've done most, isn't that enough? I think other WS, the ones that still don't 'get it', simply do the things on the list that get them back in the BS' good graces. Others, I don't know. Does your H think that doing 80% is enough? 90% is enough? I know that my H has said that my list was a 'list of demands' and that I was trying to 'control' him and requesting IC is my way of 'fixing' him and he doesn't need fixing. My H is a great starter and a lousy finisher - and he openly admits it. The items I asked him to do in March of this year, he started and did briefly, but at this point, he isn't doing any of them. He quit IC, he has talked with no one or set an accountability partner and he has clearly stated that nothing I do will change that...it needs to be from within him. How long do we wait for that? Do we simply accept that it is as much as they can do and begin to move on? Do we force our hand?
You are in a situation where you have the ability to enforce your boundaries - from my experience, enforce your boundaries! Stay strong! Stay strong! I know that you won't allow yourself to be a doormat, you have shown us through your words that through a great IC, you have become the woman you want and need to be.
Stay strong Carol...stand your ground and accept nothing less than 100%...we deserve it.
Thank you all for your responses and encouragement. I am staying strong. I am not going accept less than 100%. I would say right now he is maintaining 80% of what I have asked. That is far better than the 5% I was used to. And that is positive change...no more pot, going to IC, no contact with OW, taking a day off a week, doing things with me and going places with me and the kids....doing the dishes and other things around the hosue, and showing real concern for me and my feelings. His dedication to us as a family is amazing right now and I am very happy with that. But I am not going to let that sway me into giving up the things I need personally from H...like the house and car in my name. To me, if he does these things, it shows me that he respects me and that I am his partner. For so long he put everything in his name and I was not a thought...he could sell the house tomorrow if he wanted to and I could not stop him, unless I have him sign a legal separation. Yes, legally I am entitled to half but only if we sell after a divorce. Right now he can still do what he wants. I want to make sure I have a say in my future, especially since I cannot trust him yet. I will never let that happen again, where I give up my rights as a spouse and partner. I was naive when I allowed it! I admit it. I am far wiser and experienced now.
Susan asked how do you measure love? I think there are many, many ways, and each couple is different. But there are, as with EVERYTHING, general guidelines. I think one way to measure love is to see if the person is willing to do whatever it takes to make it work. Not just listen, and not with just words, but back it all up with action. This was a hard lesson for me to learn. I wanted to believe everything that came out of my H's mouth. And I would say that when he was lying and cheating he certainly wasnt showing me any love. But it was there, hiding inside of him. He needed a jolt into reality and out of his world of self-pity to recognize that it was still there. It is so very sad that only when faced with losing everything do you realize how much you love someone. I believe it is that fear and panic that made H want to do everything right away. Like Liz said, he has calmed down and feels safe that I am staying put for now. After the letter I wrote to him I do believe he will get back on track. He replied by saying that me and the kids are taking up all of his free time and he is basking in all the positive that has brought into his life and he is enjoying it. He apologized for all the pain and triggers and siad he understood. He also said he did not realize that he was slacking off and he thanked me for the letter and for allowing him the opportunity to make things better. So I will give him a little more time. I loved what he said, but I need to see action. And like I said to him, I will not wait forever.
Carol, I would continue to pressure him about the house and car, if for no other reason to protect yourself. I'm not saying that you're definitely headed for divorce, but if that happens, you might not get your share of the house. Heck, if H gets a good enough lawyer, you and the kids could wind up out of the house and he gets it all to himself since it is legally just his house.
Again, I'm not accusing your H of having ulterior motives, but that could be the reason for his reluctantcy. Any lawyer would tell him not to put you on the title of the house if divorce was a possibility in the future. I know laws vary from state to state. You're in PA and I'm in MD, but I know someone that this happened to. The house and car were in the H's name only She and the children had to move out. She tried to at least get the car but he sold it to his parents for $5 and gave her half -- $2.50. Protect yourself and your children. Insist on this.
hi carol, i think you are doing a great job, maintaining your strength and dignity, keep it going.
remember too that it has taken you a long time and a lot of hard work to get to where you are now and to learn these 'new' things and way of living.
the same can be said for you H, he has spent a long time being and learning to be a certain type of person or to have certain types of behaviours. IT WILL TAKE him a LONG time to learn new ones, ones you want etc.
after all crisis periods there is what we call the 'honeymoon' period where lots of effort etc is put in, this usually lasts about 6-8 weeks, then people start to lose momentum, slow their pace in their learning, or maybe are just coming out of the crisis phase. this is normal and when the real work on relearning starts. in some ways it is the toughest time because some people can seem to forget what it is they are working for. this is normal too.
so it sounds like he might be at this spot. but as you said he has done 80% of what you want, 3 months ago or whatever he wasnt doing anything of what you wanted at all, so that is a big move for him. but as you said their is more work for him to do, for himself and for you. that is his choice.
remember too that you are so much ahead of him in the learning, and it can be frustrating to feel someone hasnt caught up to you quick enough.
he has a lot of unlearning to do, and a lot of learning to do, he cant undo himself or some of his behaviours 'overnight'. yes there are triggers and risks that in the end he may not come up to what you want or he may make other choices. but you have also made other choices (eg him moving out) and in the future you will also have choices for you, regardless of his actions.
take care hon, you are doing really well and i hope you and the kids are finding some piece during this time, you deserve it after all the years of trauma etc
I've been wondering how you are holding up. Seems like things are going fairly well with the H. Stand your ground on the house. He'll get that taken care of I'm sure. I don't have any energy right now to read what everyone has posted, I just want to let you know I'm thinking of you. And hope for the best........hugs, C
Things are going fairly well, but I am growing impatient. He is avoiding doing the last few things that I have asked. And now I am starting to get a little pissed off here. I understand that it takes time to change but that does not excuse his avoidance. I am not going to give up what I need because he is avoiding something. And if I give in it will only reinforce his avoidant behavior. So, I can't give in if the marriage it to work. And I wont give in because I have worked too hard on ME.
Every Monday we spend the day together now doing things that we have both always wanted to do. This Monday we went for a motorcycle ride to view the fall foliage and to buy me a new helmet. We also got massages, which was wonderful. Then we went home and made dinner together and ate with the kids. We had a great day together and H said he looked forward to being with me on Mondays. Well, for some reason that was a trigger for me. I wondered if he looked forward to seeing OW on Thursdays, so I asked. He said he looked forward to seeing me and why would I want to ruin such a great day by brining that up? Ok, well, that ruined my day! Why shouldnt I bring it up if it was bothering me? And besides, I am not the one who cheated and ruined our marriage. So I thought "how dare he tell me I ruined the day". What the he11 is one day compared to our marriage? What the heck?!!! This is what makes me so mad. I'm the one ruing things?!!! PUHLEEEZE! Ugh! I am the one hurting here and you just dont like being reminded that you're the one who caused this pain. That's what's going on here! Well, I say "too bad". These are the consequences of your actions...cause and effect! Deal with it buddy!!! Last time this caused me to walk on eggshells. Well, Im not going to do it. I will stand up for myself this time and always, from now on.
carol mate, it is good to hear from you, i was wondering how things were going.
part of our healing as the BS is to go with the new and the good and to balance our triggers.
it is early days for you at this point, trying to balance good stuff with **** stuff.
we have been there, done that and got the t shirts. please try not to let the triggers override NEW good times. it is a new thing for you to learn, it isnt a step backwards, just another thing to learn.
for me i learnt it the day my H was talking about another female collegue, not the OW and he said in response to me being bitchy about a good day and women he might have spent it with, he just said "kate (not OW)is a nice person not like you are being now"
i sat on that for a bit and realised there were some things i still needed to yell from the tree tops about what had happened for me and my pain, and then some things i needed to get into a balance or perspective.
again, i hope this makes sense -sure vent - we need to do that, but the lesson now is "what to vent at for a bitchy purpose and what isnt". a bit like "choose your arguements"
I am sorry you are feeling hurt. Boy, do I understand what you are saying.
OK, here are my fairy cents' worth.
Tell him--remember he is no more a mind reader than you are--that when you are triggering, he needs be honest, but just as importantly, or perhaps even more so, he needs to say, "I am sorry you are hurting, Carol. I am glad we had such a wonderful day together." If he says something from the heart like that, he will be acknowledging your heart without letting his ego get in the way.
Further, I suggest that you tell him that by not doing EVERYTHING that you have asked him to do, he is not making you feel safe, secure, able to trust him. He MUST understand that it is up to him to do what you request of him when you tell him those are the actions that make you feel he is being trustworthy. It doesn't matter a hill of beans if you are buying a new house or not. The fact is that you have told him you need him to put your name on the title. That should be enough. Ditto for the car.
Of course, I am sure that you are acknowledging the excellent work that he has done so far and telling him that while you hurt, you are proud of him for working so hard.
It really does suck dealing with A, no matter how far we have come.
I am proud of you for being your own best friend, Carol.
Thanks Kath & FF...yes, I am telling him how proud I am of all the good things he is now doing. He does see the benefits of his hard work. I know I need to choose my battles but I feel if I am hurting I should be able to tell him, not feel as if I am ruining something. I guess, perhaps, it was his choice of words that got me going. I did not say EVERYTHING I wrote here...most of what I wrote was what I was thinking, not what I said to H. I just feel he ruined so much and he gets upset with me because I was ruining the day. I try very hard not to bring up the subject of the A on our Mondays together because I want them to be good memories and a bonding experience. But some times you just get a trigger, ya know? And I too look forward to our Mondays together. Next Monday we are going to see the Red Hot Chili Peppers. It is a band I have wanted to see for a long time and I am excited. But I am also worried that it will be another trigger. I dont know if anyone remembers, last summer I took H to see Dave Matthews and things did not go well because I did not know he was still seeing OW. We did not connect at all that night and it is still bothers me. At least now I know why he was acting like such an ass, lol.
Red Hot Chili Peppers will be much more lively, shall we say, than Dave Matthews sometimes is. Besides, think of the fodder for future jokes you will get. You know, comments like, "If you EVER make the mistake of having another A, I won't go see Red Hot Chili Peppers with you, I will stuff them up your a**!" said, of course, with a huge smirk.
Hmm. I guess you have an idea of the kind of bantering that goes on between my H and me.
And you are so right Carol. We couldn't "ruin" a good day if they hadn't done what they did. Ack!
Anyway, life does get better. And the further into recovery you two get, the less likely he will be to say things like that to you, or if he does, when you call him for those comments, he will apologize and tell you that you are right and that he is sorry and that he loves you.
Even though I don't feel like I should give advice because I feel like I am starting to really come to terms with things now. But I wanted to comment on something.
You said that you were afraid that you wouldn't connect because you didn't before. We did the same thing. A month after I found out, we had tickets to see Keith Urban. I didn't think that we were connecting at all, in fact just a couple days before we got into a huge fight and I told him to take the OW instead, anyway, We went and even though I thought sometimes he was thinking about her-that glossed over look-we had the best time we had ever had. I can say that I still look back and can say that it was a great time. I say just give it a chance. Don't bring any other memmories into it. Go and have fun. It sounds like your Monday's are wonderful.
I would also tell you to keep on saying what is on your mind. The biggest thing you will have to do is let him say what is on his. Because that is what he is thinking. If he can get comfortable with saying what he is thinking without you making a huge deal out of it, then he will start opening up more. I think alot of us BS's get mad because we want to hear certain things that we think they should say but most of the time they are thinking something else. When they tell us we are hurt and disappointed because they didnt say what we thought they should. It is ok to be mad but don't let it out everytime.
I am the same as you. Once we got our "voices", we know what it takes to not back down now. We just have to learn when they need our understanding too.
hey carol, when i read that my reaction "jesus H christ", at the risk of being offensive to those who are more christian than i, that is what i truely thought.
WOW that is such a huge shift for your H, amazing, this may say than any of his words can, besides, if it doesnt work out the way you want at least you have your name on the house deeds.
sounds like he is trying (dare i say something -who knows what) but you cannot lose here, you are being presented with your rightful position and about effing time!!!!
well done to your H and congrats to you for all the work you are doing
It has been awhile since I have read here. I saw your post and it reminded me so much of our early recovery days!
When BT started to change his ways I expected everything to change at once! Of course it didn't. I had to remind myself it took almost 50 years for him to become the man he was. It was going to take time for the change I was hoping for. I also had to remember he wanted to change as much as I wanted him to. He actually used behavior modification techncis to help change not only his physical behavior, but also to change his complete thought process about most things! He didn't come up with this on his own we had some good counselling.
When he would slip up and do or say something I would let him know I would not stand for it! I also had to start to believe these things were not usually intentional. They were things said or done without thinking them through. Real long lasting life changing behavior takes time and patients. Those were two things I had given for so long already! It was hard for both of us, but we did have the same goal..a real marrige with love and respect that only had room for the two of us and God.
I also began to see that when things were getting better I would find a way to sabatog them. I would make a mean comment or ask a question That was impossible for him to answer without me getting upset or mad. I think it was my way of testing him over and over. I ruined many good times. Yes, I do take responsibility for that. Now, I can see sometimes it was hard for me to allow us to be happy. I had to get used to good times again, and to being treated the way I should have been all along! We both had huge adjustments to make. We both had to start to feel safe with each other again. I had to believe in him again. We both had to learn to trust each other. He had to trust me enough to tell me all his dark secrets and know that I would still love him!
Carol, recovery is hard work for both of you. He can change, but he can't do it alone. He can't do it because you told him to. He has to want to. You have to both understand there will be slips along the way. You need to be there to pick each other up when they happen. The last four years have been the hardest of my life. I never dreamed life and love could hurt so much. It should not have been this way, but it was.
After four years we are so much in love. We have a great marriage and life together. I will be honest though. We lost something we will never have again. I can't even put a name on it. I just have to accept it and not let it effect our future. I still from time to time fight off triggers. They have become old and monotonous, and come and go quickly. We have already lost enough I will not let this ruin another moment of our lives together.
Recovery is a long, and hard uphill road, but is worth the travel.
Good luck, and stay strong.
Lynndie
This message has been edited by Lynndie on Oct 29, 2006 11:09 AM
I am actually doing much better with the triggers. They do not last as long and I am not letting them ruin my good time or H's. I still asks questions but I feel there is nothing wrong with that. It is not meant to ruin our good time, I just need to know. And he needs to understand that and not turn it around on me, like I am the bad guy here. I have had enough of that through this whole A mess, and I am not going to put up with it anymore.
And H is going to IC. He even told me today that there was so much of his childhood that he blocked out. I hope IC can help him. I am sure there is much of the A he blocked out as well. I also know it takes time to change. It took me two years to get back to just being more like myself and to start sticking up for myself. And like you said, I have already given him a lot of time and patience which makes this even harder. But like you, I am sure we will both make mistakes and I dont expect everything to be perfect all of the time, and hopefully we will have a happier marriage in the end.
Take Care...Carol~
This message has been edited by pizzalady on Mar 7, 2007 2:36 PM
