In a post on Open, Dragonfly wrote:

"Knowing that he has been with OW, touching her, kissing her, telling her he loves her, the thought of his skin on mine makes my skin crawl (and it is so strange to me because the thought of him with anyone else before me didn't bother me at all.)"

To me, this strikes at the very heart our our pain. Many of us have spouses/SO's who were married before, or had sexual encounters with others. I daresay few of us (I should only speak for myself here, I guess) are bothered much if at all by that fact. I really wouldn't have cared a whit about who she had made love to before we became serious...

But because the A's involve the betrayed person at such an intimate level, and because they are accompanied by the lies and betrayal of trust factors, they go to a whole new level. What I'm saying is, it's not so much about the sex in and of itself, is it? Maybe I'm stating the obvious, but it just hit me as strange.

The weird thing is, my W actually harbors residual anger and sarcasm towards me for having sex with women before I even met her! Considering the stuff she pulled, I find this just a wee, wee bit crazymaking.

I avow that we have the RIGHT to be dumped, rather than cheated upon. In my first truly serious love relationship, I was cheated on & then dumped shortly afterwards. Although painful at first, I got over it. This other deal is becoming a life challenge!
BB

I would rather somebody had the guts and respect for me to come to me first and tell me that our relationship was over and then go bop their hot babe. To me that isn't hard......it is just the right thing to do.

BB it is a little crazymaking that your ex's bother your wife. Hmmmm strange!

You are so right in that it isn't the sexual act itself that is so bothersome (at least not to me) but rather the lies, deceit and the disrespect given by the WS. This is the person that you entrusted with your life and who you shared your intimate and secret thoughts with - and they took theirs and shared them with somebody else.

Affairs are just senseless acts - there are far better ways to tell somebody you aren't happy or it is over

Kid

This is totally what I struggle with. I wonder if having H as the only man I have ever been with plays a huge part in my trying to move on stage?

Jetta

BB,

You are right; H was married before our M and the fact he was intimate with W#1 was never a problem for me. It's about the betrayal of trust, intimacy, and love that hurts. And Jetta, I think you're right too...for me H has been my first and only; increasing the betrayal. My fault for that additional pain - too trusting, and too naive. I put my eggs in one basket and felt they would never break. My poor choice was to allow someone else to carry the basket.

I was thinking just this morning of so many lies that had been told to "alleve" my pain from my H during and directly following his A. And then I thought of the old adage:

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

How many of you have been told by your W/H/SO that the lies were to "protect" you, or to "ease" your pain...or with the philosophy "What you don't know, won't hurt you"? ...and then the TRUTH emerges and the pain is greater than a nuclear blast in your chest.


Peace is not just the absence of war; it's an exercise in compassion. -Dalai Lama
Coming to you from JJ

Yes I would much prefered to have been dumped and I dont care how many men my wife would have slept with before we were married,but I wonder about the fact that maybey it bothers me more that I was her first and always thought I would be her last and then found out she had sex with other men AFTER we were married, that statement just typing it really hits hard in the gut, I actually feel sick thinking about it. I was always proud ,glad i dont know the word to put here but was I guess proud of the fact that I was the only sex partner she ever had,and to find out that is not true,that she had other men IN our marriage really hurts to a point that I cannot describe

I just wanted to add to what JJ said,and that was about the WS telling me that she lied to me after getting caught she lied to me to protect me.......ya what a load of sh!t, I think,no I know she did it to protect herself from the shame and stupity of what she had done and not coming clean ASAP caused more pain than she could ever imagine. It proves to me that this person who cheated on me and betrayed me in the worst way possible,still wants to stay with me but is willing to lie and betray so that her life does not get more complicated....her life not mine.

I was also proud that in my heart there was one thing in this world, one anchor that could be depended on....my woman's true heart. Or so I thought.

Look, I don't want to come across as a bloody martyr. I had my share in screwing up this relationship. I only wish she would have permanently bailed when she decided she had the hots for her other guys, and living with me was not her thang anymore. Believe me, we both would have been better off. But my wonderful daughter would never have been born....although her conception came dangerously close to my lady's last fling...but I'm pretty sure she's my kid. What a rotten thing to even have to be concerned with!

BB

I olso am concerned about the same thing BB, my daughter was conceived DURING her first A.
makes ya think in a way you dont want.

OK boys...get this....while my H was cheating he brings into question the paternity of our first born. Why? Because OW tells my H that since our son looks like me, he cant be his!  Can you believe that crap? OW did this to put doubts in my H's head that perhaps he is justified in cheating on me because I must have cheated on him at some time. I have never cheated on him and if he thinks our son is not his I told him to go take a paternity test.  I wonder if this was part of the reason H was treating the children so badly too.  All I know is that a lot of crap comes up.  But how dare he even think our son is not his because HE is the one cheating!  UGH!!!  Now you guys got m going, lol.

And to answer the original question...yes, I would have rather been dumped than to have been cheated on.  I told my H when we got married that that is exactly what I would do to him if I felt the need to cheat and he said the samething to me. Guess he forgot all about that conversation.  But the point is mute isnt it?  We are eitehr the back up in case the OP doesnt work out or they never really wanted the marriage/relationship to end, they wanted it all!!! So they are selfish.  Selfish people seldom do the right thing becasue they are only thinking of themselves and what THEY need at that moment and not about the consequences. If tehy can help it there will never be any consequences, hence all the lies!!! So yes, the lies are to protect them, not us. But yes...honesty would have been much more merciful!

There's lots of crazy making stuff out there. I value every one of my HH family members more than you'll ever know.

Here's a song from "THE MUSIC MAN" called "The Sadder But Wiser Girl":

No wide-eyed, eager,
Wholesome innocent Sunday school teacher for me.
That kinda girl spins webs no spider ever--
Listen, boy--
A girl who trades on all that purity
Merely wants to trade my independence for her security.
The only affirmative she will file
Refers to marching down the aisle.
No golden, glorious, gleaming pristine goddess--
No sir!
For no Diana do I play faun.
I can tell you that right now.
I snarl, I hiss: How can ignorance be compared to bliss?
I spark, I fizz for the lady who knows what time it is.
I cheer, I rave for the virtue I'm too late to save
The sadder-but-wiser girl for me.

No bright-eyed, blushing, breathless baby-doll baby
Not for me.
That kinda child ties knots no sailor ever knew.
I prefer to take a chance on a more adult romance.
No dewy young miss
Who keeps resisting all the time she keeps insisting!
No wide-eyed, wholesome innocent female.
No sir.
Why, she's the fisherman, I'm the fish you see?--PLOP!
I flinch, I shy, when the lass with the delicate air goes by
I smile, I grin, when the gal with a touch of sin walks in.
I hope, and I pray, for a Hester to win just one more "A"
The sadder-but-wiser girl's the girl for me.
The sadder-but-wiser girl for me.

(In all fairness, I TOTALLY disagree with the line: "I hope, and I pray, for a Hester to win just one more "A", which refers to Hester Prynne from "The Scarlet Letter".)

But my point is that those of us who were the first and only sexual partners of our mates sometimes wake to the shock that they decided to try something new on the menu. I was the first real sex partner of my W's. Egged on by her sister--("You don't want Blue to be the only guy you'll ever fu@k*, do you?")-- sure enough, BINGO.

Yes, the sadder but wiser girl for me.....

*registered trademark

BB

Okay, now here's the thing for me, and I know that this isn't everyone's experience, but there are times when honesty doesn't absolve the WS of anything.

I WAS 'dumped' before my W got it on with the OW - about 10 whole days before! My W WAS honest with me about not wanting to be married to me, and believing it was over. And she maintained that she wanted a divorce for months after D-day. But I took that statement in the context of her having done it to me before, when she was badly depressed and confused, and then coming back to me.

The thing is, I hadn't given up, and I thought it was just a bad patch she was going through. Then, when she DID start her A, she didn't tell me about it, but carried it on under my nose until I found out by accident.

In fact, she was honest with me about her A from the moment I found out about it (LOL - yes, that sounds funny - but she was honest with me that she wanted to see someone else and 'sleep with other people' the night she broke up with me). My point is, that 'statement of intent' didn't make me feel any less betrayed or shattered when I DID find out she was having an A. She has denied it and we have discussed this, but I feel that somewhere in her desperation and depression, she was giving herself permission to get together with the OW (she DOESN'T feel this way, but there you are). And time has shown me (and her) that is WAS an A, despite her rationalisation and 'honesty'.

So what am I saying here? Or am I just differing because I can?

Well, what I am saying is that telling someone you're going to shoot them right before you do it may be honest, but it still doesn't make it right!

Dave

[edited to add: Oh yes, and there was the small matter of our marriage vows, and 16 shared years which I didn't feel could be summarily dismissed by simply stating that they were inconvenient, meaningless and a mistake.]

"Well, what I am saying is that telling someone you're going to shoot them right before you do it may be honest, but it still doesn't make it right!"

Right on, my man.

The only A that was behind my back was her fling w/ OP#1. The other 3 were done after she temporarily moved out, and she made sure to rub my face into each and every one. By no means were they done in secret, like #1. Sh!t, they gave her the key to the city....! Counting me, she had 5 guys going pretty much at the same time over an entire Spring & Summer. There's a name for a woman who does that, begins with "s".....

But the first cut is the deepest, as they say.

>Well, what I am saying is that telling someone you're going to shoot them right before you do it may be honest, but it still doesn't make it right!

This goes along with my comment to my wife on D-day:

There's a process you're supposed to go through before you start another relationship... first you get counseling, and if that doesn't work out, you go through separation, and finally divorce. After that process is completed, then you can start new relationships and not until then.

Although there are certainly exceptions to the part regarding new relationships while separated, I don't think it goes along with the concept that separation is a step toward divorce, rather than a substitute for one.

The bottom line is that my wife didn't have the affair because she was seeking a divorce. She had it because she though she could without getting caught. However, she forgot that she had a conscience and I have eyes and ears.

Tom

Well said tom.Very well said.

Tom - I am quite shocked to read that your wife had an A because she thought she would not get caught.  My wife seems to admit the same thing to me too - something she learned as a child ie if the grown ups don't find out then it is ok.

What shocks me is to hear this from you.  And to see the strides you have made in forgivness and working out your marriage.  Your example now seems to be very much at odds with the way things are going for me.  Perhaps, if you read this you can help explain the differences to me.

In my case the realisation of the superficial depth of commitment and care my wife had towards me has been one of the things that really has eaten away at my ability to come back into the marriage.  I see her actions as essentially being rather superficial and uncaring and .. well this makes me feel I cannot trust the basis of our relationship.  Indeed still now I am finding that her explanations of how things were and are between us leaves me quite exasperated.. It feels like we are living on different planets sometimes eg "Of course I always loved you.  When you feel better then things will be ok".. I don't think to this day she realises what love is all about. 

may you be safe and well

Jerry....my H said something similar.  He figured that what I didnt know wouldnt hurt me.  But he was wrong! Unfortunately every male in my H's family has done the same.  So why would H think it's wrong?  The legacy...the things we teach or children <sigh>

Take care...Carol~

Jerry wrote:
>Tom - I am quite shocked to read that your wife had an A because she thought she would not get caught. My wife seems to admit the same thing to me too - something she learned as a child ie if the grown ups don't find out then it is ok.

>What shocks me is to hear this from you. And to see the strides you have made in forgiveness and working out your marriage. Your example now seems to be very much at odds with the way things are going for me. Perhaps, if you read this you can help explain the differences to me.

I'm sorry to have taken so long to respond.

First of all, let be begin by stating that this is only one of many reasons that my wife had her affair. Being able to hide it is only one of the enabling reasons she had it. In addition, she wanted to feel the "high" of a new attraction, she felt lonely, she didn't deal with her situation in a more appropriate manner, she was angry at me for allowing our living situation (me living away from home during the week) to continue... the list is long.

But, certainly one aspect of having an affair is the feeling that you can do it without consequence. Since I was living away Sunday night through Friday evening, and she could deal with our kids (i.e. they were too naive to "see" what was going on, they were in school during the day, and she could get sitters to take care of the pre-school ones), her neighbors wouldn't "see" (we lived in a very rural setting, and the affair was with our one neighbor within visual distance), she had several circumstances that made it relatively easy to avoid detection.

He attitude of “getting away” with bad behavior wasn’t widespread, although there are a few other examples that I could site. The affair is by far the most notable of those, but earlier in our marriage she had opportunities to have at least one or two affairs, without getting caught, yet did not engage in them. I think one reason she did not participate in those affairs was because the OM’s did not persist as the OM in her actual did. This may be true because she might not have flirted as much in those early situations as she did with the OM in her affair.

However, she was certainly brazen as well, since the OM would visit her with the kids upstairs in their beds, or she would chat on the computer when she knew I had enough know-how to "catch" her if I became curious, and she went to restaurants and a movie theater with the OM where she could have easily encountered one of our friends.

Of course, as you have mentioned, these attitudes are very, very offensive to me. I find her actions to be premeditated since she weighed the possibility of getting caught as she became involved in the affair. I also find her boldness to be offensive, because it shows that she reached a point where getting caught was not a concern, neither the possibility nor the consequences.

However, I also accept that once a person begins to engage in any kind of bad behavior they "automatically" put the possibility and consequences of getting out of their mind. I remember my own experiences and that's how I went from my hesitant fear to moments later enjoying that very thing. I remember how I forgot, and I also remember how I'd occasionally feel that fear again as I'd momentarily "awaken" to those consequences. To me it's just one of the aspects of our nature.

Consequently, I've realized that because I forgive my wife for her affair, I also forgive her for the "acts of her nature" that allowed her to do it. My wife showed through the affair that she didn't have the personal "tools" (i.e. discipline, honesty, humility, fearful, insightful...) to deal with her nature. She had been allowed and even encouraged to live undisciplined, unenlightened, unfearful, full of pride, and without integrity. As we all fall short I knew forgiveness was needed. As I had a desire for reconciliation, I knew forgiveness was the first step.

However, this doesn't mean I have accepted reconciliation without her dealing with those issues. Absolutely not. I have insisted on a new attitude toward honesty and humility. I have asked that she work toward greater insight and greater personal discipline. Without her taking those steps and continuing to take those steps, our reconciliation will be doomed. I'm glad that she is taking them, because it allows trust to be rebuilt, not only trust of fidelity, but trust that the relationship is more than a convenience, more than what makes the most sense for her, or even for our kids.

Hopefully it is clear why I separate forgiveness from reconciliation. I believe they must be separated in order to allow us to heal. Forgiveness was something I would have needed to give with or without her repentance. To do otherwise would have kept me locked in as her victim, although I think it would have been harder to forgive her if she had not been repentant. It doesn't mean I'd have to like her. It doesn't mean I'd have to continue any kind of relationship with her. For example, if I forgave her without reconciling, I could rightfully have a relationship where any contact was through a third party if I needed that boundary for protection from her.

Reconciliation takes cooperation from both parties. If she was not repentant, or if I did not desire reconciliation, then our relationship would not be reconciled. Reconciliation can only take place with both parties desire it.

In addition, I'm not required to reconcile with her simply because she "earned" another chance through her repentance. I am free to choose reconciliation or not for my own reasons. When I made this decision, it was based on my desire to continue our relationship, her willingness to reconcile, my children's needs for an intact home, my parent's desire to see us reconcile, and her parents desire to see us reconcile, probably in that order of importance.

In addition, it is not a "once and only" kind of decision. I believe that reconciliation should be constantly re-evaluated, especially based on the behavior of the wayward spouse. There were times when I doubted that she was repentant, because she was still lying and being prideful. I couldn't continue with reconciliation under those circumstances, and I told her so.

I don’t know if this explains the differences or not. I admit I don’t fully understand what is behind your decision to separate. Because I don’t understand this, it’s difficult for me to draw out differences and contrasts to between our situations. However, one thing that I continue to question is that any differences might be due to our different views on human nature, because I don’t know if I could come to the conclusions that I hold if I didn’t believe that my wife and I are both intrinsically selfish by nature.

TomJ

Hello Tom, I don't know if I should respond here or start another thread - but I will say something here and also start another thread in Open I think.

I want to say that I appreciate your full response which is clear and full of experience and understanding as always.. I wish I could be so coherent at times!  I also agree with all that you say.  The only point I have that I believe is different is that I don't seem to be able to find that desire to continue the relationship.  This leaves me feeling very very selfish .. I found myself feeling this whilst discussing my situation with my grown up son and his girlfriend this evening.  I now realise that it is me that has changed and me that wants more in the way of loving commitment from my wife.  I simply can't find it in me to believe that she has this to give.  And my only logical future route back to being reunited is that I see and feel that we have both changed - This seems to be quite a high level of expectation and it is really needed to help me overcome all my reservations.

Please look out for my other thread or reply again here.

many thanks again Tom

may you and all your family be safe and well, contented and happy

<<In addition, it is not a "once and only" kind of decision. I believe that reconciliation should be constantly re-evaluated, especially based on the behavior of the wayward spouse. There were times when I doubted that she was repentant, because she was still lying and being prideful. I couldn't continue with reconciliation under those circumstances, and I told her so.>>

Tom,

Thank you for writing this. I guess I am at a point where I am re-evaluating things.  Yes, my H has done many of the things I have asked but we seem to be stuck right now.  H has been refusing to talk again...I just am not willing to accept that anymore. I have gone back to having anxiety attacks because I am holding everything in again.  I want to say what's on mind (not yell, just talk and let him know how I feel or my thoughts) but he always has an excuse...too tired or now is not the time, or whatever.  I just cant deal with it anymore. Maybe I just need a break. But H really was trying for the first 3 months but seems to have fallen back into his old ways of avoiding and not wanting to deal. He still has not told me the A story or answered all of my questions. BUT He is still pot free as far as I know and there has been no contact between him and OW, again, as far as I know.  And I do know for sure he is going to IC, but we seem to be hanging on by only a thread right now. Any advice?

Take Care...Carol~

Carol:

It seems "normal" to me that our wayward spouses would have times when they backslide. I've tried to deal with backsliding by telling my wife that I notice it. After I'd tell her, she would improve somewhat, but often there were a series of "incidents" that would escalate the tension in our relationship until a "melt down" would occur. Often this was nothing more than me reaching a point where my anger was at the point where I didn't want any initimacy with her at all, not even touching. I believe it helped us when I didn't hide my feelings or keep them to myself. It gave her the feedback she needed to know that things needed to change.

A few times I reached a point where I made it clear that I was at the end of my rope. No one left the house, but I remember one time when I told her that's what I wanted to do, but I not yet decided to take the step. I always tried to explain why I felt this amount of anger. It was normally due to some insensitivity, some dishonesty, or some other redemonstration of affair enabling behavior. Again, I think it helped her to know that her behavior wasn't meeting my expectations, and that changes were desparately needed to stay on the road to reconcilation.

It is important that the betrayed do whatever they can to make sure the needed conversations take place. If the attempts are still rejected, then we have to find unavoidable ways to make these feelings known and understood. If repeated attempts are met without meaningful response, then it's probably time to reconsider the reconcilation.

TomJ

Thank you Tom.  Your words have been very helpful and I appreciate your response

Take Care...Carol~

Tom....I talked to my IC today and he said pretty much what you said. I need to let H know how I feel and that he is not cutting it by refusing to talk about things. That I need to be more insistant about my own needs.  I recognise that I was falling back into that pattern of letting H get away with it because I am focusing on him and not me.  Time to focus on me again which is why my anxiety attacks have come back.  I do not want to go back to feeling that way! Thanks again

Take Care...Carol~ 

Since my H's A occured because he thought our marriage was over and was trying to push a desicion one way or the other, I would say I would rather he had tried to end the marriage than give me an excuse to end it. I find it a cowardly way to deal with problems in a relationship.

Trinity