First time I have felt confident enough to post here on Deeper Healing. I have responded to posts here, never created a thread. Tonight was big. I have been feeling that is it time to move on. Slam that door shut and accept that what I know is what I am going to know, and even possibly TRUE. Had that conversation once again tonight, following an in depth conversation about the movie I posted about on open. Ok, so is this normal? I am beginning to think maybe it is a normal progression, and Carol I am wondering if you may be struggling with some of the same issues. I don't want to project onto you of course, however, and of course cant even to begin to compare our situations because I know all of our situations are different. However.

#1)IS it normal to after you feel satiated with details of the A, and feel as confident as you will probably ever get that what you know is true...to still wonder? Will it ever go away? Is this the point of ACCEPTANCE that is crucial?

#2) Is it normal to after having spent a year or whatever the timetable is for you, searching and being paranoid, and looking out for every suspicious behavior (fight or flight)...to almost feel a loss as what to do now?

#3) What now????

I think I know my answer to that. Accept, risk again, trust again. But it is so so scary.

PS) My husband has done everything "right". Dubold's post on open today, he is definately in the category of doing what it takes. So why can I not let this go????????? By the way, I am so triggered here sometimes. To an unhealthy degree at times. Like JJ's story (BLESS YOU JJ- god my heart aches for you). How can I trust? Maybe I need a time out from here?

All input appreciated as usual.

Hugs, Hope

I will accept any and all blessings right now, although I think the turmoil of late has ultimately proven easier for me than what you presently undergo.

I absolutely understand your fears and concerns. I read an article once that said no marriage survives an A. It scared me, and I remember feeling argumentative!!!! I'd read such hopeful stories on HH and my H and I were proving to be a success story!! Now H has admitted to me that whereas the physical part of the A stopped during small intervals to appease their guilt, the EMOTIONAL A never stopped. He was living a double life and conflicted. I believe he still is. I updated my situation on OPEN.

Now I wonder. I'm sure the ability to conquer healing or pain are individualized. What are each of us willing/able to endure? For me, the decision was made after d-day #2 last March - I promised to myself I will NEVER do this again.

I will NEVER have to wonder about truth with H. I will NEVER have to throw out my BRAIN TRASH. For me, now, this is so much more comforting and I am finally at ease after 2 years. I am trying to see a future for ME without H.

I'm sure you realize that after 35 years, that will be my new hurdle.

Hope - We look to support - we search for answers - we analyze the past - but ultimately, we are individuals making our way through this crazy - albeit awesome - life.

I wish for you the strength to find your peace - where ever that path may lead you.

my thoughts and feelings are with you both Hope and JJ - I am now going off web-access for a week or so - in this time may you both begin to notice the changes in your lives and see how all things must pass in the end and yet whilst we are connected to the past in our nows, if we can STOP just for a moment or for longer here and there we can begin to appreciate NOW .. I am doing this - I feel I can trust the here and now - I am finding I can dig deep down and feel something in common with my fellow human beings and life in general - I can feel a trust in the network of loving care that acts as a safety net for us all.  Sometimes the most difficult thing is to let go and fall into the arms of this eternal web of love.  I wish you well for the coming week and perhaps there will be something you can report back.. both the bad and the good?

may you be safe and well, contented and happy

Hope,

all your thoughts are where we all have been...all I can say is that you never forget the infidelity. it will take on less importance and you don't think about it as much...recalling it doesn't hurt either...if your H is doing all the right things then you can move forward...a year is a short time to expect to forget what happened...but the questions slow down the answers are the same and your gut is telling you to believe it or not believe...it does get better...

Trust is the hard part...you want to trust what your H says and does...but then he does something that triggers you...talk about the trigger...saying I just had a flashback ...my H understood when I said this or say this...now much better,,,he was gone overnight this week..I never even thought about the possibility about his having a ONS because his behavior has changed...our relationship is better....but trust is a small step at a time...I am at 95%...will never be at 100% trust again and Hope that is good.

Triggers on the board are bound to happen...step back and say to yourself this is not me how did I handle this..just because something happened to one member doesn't mean it will happen to you...just remember each situation is different...different people, personalities...reactions...

take care

Pat



Time is precious, but truth is more precious than time.

I am going through so many of the thought processes that you are - will it ever stop hurting, will I ever trust, etc. For now, I have made a decision that I love my H and want this marriage to thrive. My H is doing everything he can to help me heal,earn my trust and become an honorable man. But there are things he won't do - like talk about the As 24/7, send a letter to OW telling her that he loved me, never her (They have not seen eachother since D Day, 15 months ago, and she has moved on and married a man her own age.) I have had to accept that I am not getting everything I want but while he has obligations to me, I also have obligations to him in terms of trying not to obsess ALL the time.

The answer seems to be to focus on myself and making sure I have a good life without depending on my H and marriage for my sense of self. I think that one of the reasons I fell so hard is that I thought my H and his love for me alone made me worthwhile and lovable. Since that was all a lie for seven years, I feel like I had no life for those years. It is so dangerous and unhealthy to depend on other people for your happiness and ultimately, that approach will not be successful.

So, will I ever be the same as I was? I hope not. Will this marriage ever be the same as it was? I hope not. Will I ever trust in the same way? I hope not. Will I be stronger and happier? Working on it.

Susan you are a fast learner!

"The answer seems to be to focus on myself and making sure I have a good life without depending on my H and marriage for my sense of self. I think that one of the reasons I fell so hard is that I thought my H and his love for me alone made me worthwhile and lovable. Since that was all a lie for seven years, I feel like I had no life for those years. It is so dangerous and unhealthy to depend on other people for your happiness and ultimately, that approach will not be successful."

Your alter ego, my dear friend the original Susan, and I had that conversation many many times over the years. We shared that view, that "I thought my H and his love for me alone made me worthwhile and lovable" yes, that is what hurts so terribly badly. Your whole marraige feels a sham. This perfect love a lie... well the truth is, in time ( damn word!) you do learn that it is essential to learn to love yourself not love yourself through someone else's eyes. A hard lesson for anyone, but especially for the betrayed.

Hope, as Pat so beautifully said all you are feeling is NORMAL! All this learning takes time so much time. You are feeling all the right things including the triggers from here. This place IS like an addiction and many of us do need to take a break. Sometimes the pain here is too raw, too overwhelming. However, the friendships are so dear, it is a difficult lure. I have taken many breaks over the years, sometimes I just read, and don't post. The lesson is follow your gut and do what feels right for you AT THE MOMENT don't worry about the future. None of us can control that, but we do need to learn how better to take care of ourselves NOW.

In time if all his actions are right you will WANT to trust, and in time in SMALL increments you will begin to trust. Like Pat,I now trust 95% I don't ever WANT to trust 100% again.. that would mean putting him above my feelings again something I will never do.

Hope you are doing so well just take care of your tender feelings, and trust YOU.

El

El, thank you for the kind words and affirmation of what I am feeling. But, fast learner? Ha! It has taken me over 50 years to get to this place and I am still struggling but at least in the right direction this time.

Had a tough night. I went with H to his AA meeting (he's been sober 15 months and the change is miraculous) and the subject was envy vs. being happy with what you have. It hid me hard - I never used to be envious. I felt so lucky to have an amazing, interesting, handsome, successful and dynamic H and a marriage that everyone else looked at as successful. In my mind,we were the golden couple with a special marriage. What a joke. While I was feeling so proud of myself for landing Mr. Wonderful, he was going out with a succession of young girls and coming home to tell me what a bad wife I was. I am so filled with loathing for that man, those OW and myself.

Now, I am filled with envy, not of material things but of how other, healthier people seem to be able to think and behave. I am envious of the woman who 1)would have walked out when a man she was dating kept her waiting in a bar for over an hour (did that) 2)would have dumped someone who was with another woman and lied to her about it BEFORE they were married (did that) 3)would have left someone who treated her with cruelty (did that). I am envious of people who don't have the devastation of A's in their lives, who know safety,peace and trust in their marriage, who don't feel compelled to watch for signs of cheating, who can fall asleep at night without playing movies in their heads of H and his OW...... and the list goes on. In short, I am envious of people who have self esteem and self respect.

So, after the meeting, we went out for dinner and I couldn't stop crying. The change is that H seems genuinely interested in understanding how I am feeling and helping me to understand how he was feeling. The truth, however, is very painful and my worst terrors realized.....he just didn't care about me, only about himself. I was devoting/wasting my life on someone who had no interest in being a good husband. I was married to a single man. Like a true alcoholic, he was the center of the universe -everyone was there to serve his needs.

So the learning is - never, never again. I have friends, a successful career of my own, two great sons - I don't need him to be happy. In fact, I would have been much happier without him for the 7 years prior to D Day. He is not a prize, just a man that I happen to love - but only for as long as he treats me well. (If I say it enough, I think I will start believing it.)

Susan,

You say words that make you seem truly "together." I hold the same envies as you, sans a few. Yes, I am "envious of people who don't have the devastation of A's in their lives, who know safety,peace and trust in their marriage, who don't feel compelled to watch for signs of cheating..."

But my jealousy ends there...I DON'T have the infidel visions anymore...and I will NOT allow my H's actions/A to put into doubt MY self-esteem or MY self-respect. I will say the A greatly damaged my confidence in feeling attractive. I'm working on that.

And then you say: Like a true alcoholic, he was the center of the universe -everyone was there to serve his needs. Bingo. And my H is still there even with our complete mess right now. He says he never wanted our M to end....but then he didn't want the A to end either.

On the phone yesterday, he said, "If you put a row of drinks in front of an alcoholic, he would drink them all." "If you gave heroin to an addict, he would take it."

To which I replied, "So then...If you put the OW in front of the WS, and he takes it...that's true love and good for the WS?"

To that, he didn't answer.


Peace is not just the absence of war; it's an exercise in compassion. -Dalai Lama
Coming to you from JJ

Thanks JJ. I feel like I know the "right" way to think but am a big fraud. I give lip service to being tough, independent, strong but inside, so not there. I work in advertising and have a lot of young women who report to me. Recently, one said that I was such a role model to her. Yeah, I am a role model all right - just a model of how NOT to behave in a relationship. After her comment, I just went into the ladies room, shut myself in a stall and cried. The only place I am honest about who I am is here and in IC. But, I am trying to change and that is a good thing.
Speaking of envy, I admit to envying you and your ability to move forward free of the garbage that has tormented our lives. I feel like an addict and my addiction is my H. I want to be able to enjoy our life together and not be enslaved by it like I have been for so many years.
You sound so healthy and strong and are so inspiring. You are not just surviving - you seem to be thriving and I am realizing that we all can thrive if we learn to love ourselves and not rely on anyone else to make us feel whole.
Sounds like you had a good time last night. Good for you. Wish we could have shared a few drinks in the bar as you sound like a woman of depth and fun - a great combination!!!!

have you ever read anything on love addiction? You may want to do a google search on love addiction if you are feeling like you may be "addicted" to H. Just a suggestion! I think there is a book written by Pia Melody called "Facing Love Addiction".

Hang in there! Hey, you can still be a role model to young women and be HUMAN!!!!!

Hope

What a good thread.

I do have to be honest too. I envy those who also haven't had an A destroy their M. My M sucked, but there was no A in it up until last year. I kick myself in the a$$ for not doing something about it sooner. I knew our M was not doing well, but was in no mood to deal with it. I also think to myself, why couldn't he do something about it if he knew it sucked too? The way I see it in my M, I am always the one who has to initiate everything that goes on from buying groceries, to planning vacations. If I left it up to H, nothing would ever get done. Then when I finally suggested that we do something about our M, (which was about 1-2 months before him ever meeting the OW) the A happened. I remember that once he was involved in the A (and I didn't know about it), telling him that I was not going to give up on us. That I wanted to reconnect with him and have a better M. Makes me wonder what went through his mind knowing what he had already done.

What I feel more then anything is dissapointment in my M. The fact that he went out to find his temporary happiness is unfair and totally selfish. I think to myself, shouldn't it had been me that would have screwed up being that H has been the only man I have ever been with? I married a backstabber and I think I am more dissapointed with myself for ever chosing him as my S.

Sorry to take over

Jetta

Jetta, I totally relate on so many counts:
-I did everything in our household from arranging our social lives and vacations, to handling our finances and managing the kids playdates and doctor appointments. I just told him where and when he had to show up and he couldn't even manage that sometimes. As his alcoholism and philandering progressed, he went out most nights and never told me when he was coming home. He has said that he didn't want to lie to me - what crap - like having A's wasn't lying. He turned me into the housekeeper/nanny/accountant/concierge and then complained that I wasn't a good wife. How could he? What was he thinking? The truth is he wasn't thinking about anything or anybody but himself. THE RAGE!!!!!! At one point, trying to resurrect our M, I suggested date nights but he was too busy with "work" to commit. HELL HATH NO FURY LIKE A WOMAN SCORNED!!!! In a peculiar way, I am grateful for the alcoholism because it offers some explanation for the craziness and cruelty.

-I also wonder what was wrong with me that I chose this man and this issue takes up a lot of my IC. Seems I was looking for someone else to fill the hole in me....no one can do that. My H was doing the same thing with his As and he has learned the same lesson. The pain comes when I say to myself, "why wasn't I enough for you?" but the answer is that nobody can give somebody else self esteem, no matter who or how many. I was engaged to someone else before my H - he was kind, gentle, loving, trustworthy but I broke it off - always attracted to dangerous men. That sickness was in me but the A's are curing it.

The rage and pain exist and I hope that they will one day recede. In the meantime, no one is forcing me to stay in the M. I love this man and want to make it work and that means that I have obligations to try to move forward and deal with his As in constructive, non-punishing ways. Not always easy but he is helping me and 98% of the time, really wonderful. The other 2% is when he gets frustrated and frightened when it seems to him that he will have to atone for the rest of his life.

The difference between pre and post D Day is that I will not tolerate the pre behavior from him or from myself.

An interesting way of puting it Hope,"slam the door shut and accept that what I know is what I am going to know and, even possibly TRUE"........you always seem to be at the same level or junction if you will,and that is another biggy for me,I seem to be at apoint where I know I must move on and trust but then I think that the trust I had with my wife is GONE, I will never ever trust her again, now I know that sounds harsh but you put it the way I feel and that is the "possibly true" part,until I can accept the possibly true as true I dont think I can move forward.

It must be normal to feel satiated with all the details Hope, but once again I am not convinced and probly never will, that I have all the info I need and I dont want to just accept what has happend, I want to understand.(of course all of our sit. are different so I am using my sit. as a reference)

On your second point, yes I think it is normal (what the hell is normal in all of this)to have been and to be suspicious and paranoid for quite some time,I guess that is the price we must pay if we are to stay with our WSs.In one way reading stories from people who have gone through this a lot longer than us does give me some hope that the pain,suspicions and paranoia does subside to a point where it it seems to become acceptable ( it olso tells me that we have quite a long road ahead of us)

You ask...What now? I guess we keep trying....I do love my wife and I know you love your husband...so we try and try and try....I think (hope) in the end it will all have been a bad dream that we remember less and less as time goes on.


I find it interesting that you feel you are triggerd here (and I can see why) but for me it is for some stupid reason the only place I dont get triggerd! and one of the only places that gives me some sort of solace.I hate it that I found this site, but I am so glad that I did!

I do accept certain aspects of the A, but I am not ready to accept that everything I now know is all there is, or all I NEED to know.  There are many unanswered questions.  They are not because H doesnt know but because he chooses not to tell me, and because he chooses to avoid. And until H can answer me and deal with what he has done, we cannot move forward.  We will remain stuck until something changes.  I do not want this to be the new "norm".  It feels fake, distant, and it is coming between us.  It's like some of the others have said, there are pieces of the puzzle that are missing.  The main part of the puzzle is the true reason why he cheated, why he couldnt come and talk to me and tell me what was going on, and chose to deal with his issues through drugs, the OW, and work.

Had H just been able to talk to me, we could have worked it out.  One thing that really angered me after d-day was that I was never even given a chance. He just up and cheated without saying a word (and did it twice)....even when I could see that something was bothering him and I would beg him to talk to me. The only way I can deal with this aspect of the A is to accept that these were H's choices and I had no control over it.  And I have let that part go. 

So yes, perhaps another stage was completed as you have said. But an A is like an onion, there are many other layers to go....or like the puzzle, with a few pieces missing...or however you would liek to look at it.  The point is, we need to tackle one issue at a time, get past it and move on to the next.  Sometimes we get stuck, and that's OK, as long as it doesnt last too long.  Forward motion is the key....even if it is at a snails pace (which is how it's going for us right now).  Sometimes there will be setbacks and we must remember that is normal.  We will get through this, one way or the other...there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

Take Care...Carol~

Carol said "I was never even given a chance"

That is how I feel too. I think that is what fuels my anger the most.

Jetta

>I was never even given a chance

The statement "I was never even given a chance" presumes that he had an affair because of some shortfall of yours, which we all know is not true. He had an affair because he could and because he wanted to, because it was "easier" to go ahead with it than it was to stop it. The statement reflects how we think the affair happened because of our shortcomings. The affair had nothing to do with what you did or did not do in the relationship.

I make these same types of statements too, without even realizing it, and they remind me how ingrained this wrong thinking is.

Tom

<<The statement "I was never even given a chance" presumes that he had an affair because of some shortfall of yours, which we all know is not true. >>

Excatly Tom, which is why I said that it was his choice.  His choice to cheat had nothing to do with me.  Once I truly believed that it wasnt my fault and his choice, that is when I let it go.

I think a lot of that wrong thinking as you put it, has not only a lot to do with how we view marriage but it has a lot to do with how society views cheating and how we have all heard "If they were happy at home they wouldnt have cheated" "If their spouse met their needs they wouldnt have cheated" "If they were getting sex at home they wouldnt have cheated" "If their spouse was mor attractive, more attentive, more whatever...they wouldnt have cheated" and a million other sayings and thoughts as to how it is the BS's fault for the A. We are being told it's our fault by society and many times by the WS themselves...so that is what we think. The truth is far simpler and less complicated but also less accepted.  The truth as Tom pointed out, was simply a choice made by the WS for whatever reason.  This is how the WS chose to deal with their issues and it was wrong, period!

Take Care...Carol~

Carol:

You're absolutely right, we have a lot of "programing" to overcome to really see the truth about adultery, not just in concious minds, but deep down to become part of our instictive knowledge. However, the payoff is that when we no longer feel undue responsiblity for someone else's behaviour, we are in a healthier place to be able to give forgiveness. I think this is because as we try to avoid forgiveness by lending excuses to our WS's choices, we often site our own shortfallings as yet another excuse for them. Apparently taking responsibility for our spouse's affair is easier than giving forgiveness... that's how hard it can be to truly forgive this! However, when we reach the point were we can say, they did this, they were wrong, but we forgive them (whether or not we choose to reconcile with them), we are finally able to heal.

Tom

Can I make another shameless stupid plug for this movie "The Last Kiss"? One would think I worked for the production company or something! In this movie, the guy had a GEM of a gal...it was NOTHING about her that made him cheat...all his own stuff. Now of course, my traumatized brain says, well, i was never that pretty, smart, whatever! but still the point remains, this filn shows that it WAS and IS all about the WS and their F'ed up issues.

Hope