EDITED TO ADD SOME CLARITY:

This was a conversation between my H and I last night and I was asking him questions about the A.  He had not been wanting to talk. H is not with OW. I am sorry I did not make myself clear about that.  We are trying reconciliation.  It has been 6 months since d-day #2.

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I asked him what did he say to himself that allowed him to cross that line? He said he felt entitled! So what do you do with a WS who felt entitled to have his cake and eat it too?  One who had no intentions of ending the marriage or the A but discussed this with OW. How f-ed up is that?  He said he worked so hard that he felt he was entitled to do whatever he wanted and he wanted both worlds. He said he couldnt give up either. I said what about me? I worked hard too, made sacrafices....where was your loyalty to me? Wasnt I entitled to a faithful spouse? I said I was lonely because you left me alone adn all you cared about was the pizzeria.  I could have justified having an affair to myself too, but I didnt do that. How can someone feel "entitled" to cheat?  I dont get that!  I mean, I know what he is saying but I dont know how he could think that way or do what he did.

This is when I felt something "snap" inside of me and I said "the marriage is over" to myself. I told H that I didnt want him here if he was pining away fro someone else.  That I needed him to profess his love for me.  If she was still in his heart I wanted him to go.  He said that that's why he's here....because he loves me, not her and that he is trying to prove his love to me. I just dont know....is this the loss of the "old" marriage?  Can a "new" marriage be rebuilt? Or is it just over with?

Carol~

Did I miss something in your post or is your H still having contact with O/W? If so, it is my opinion that you can't go forward because he is still stuck in limbo, and it is up to you to decide if you have had enough. If you can, look back in the Healing Heart message boards to Snowed post because she went through a lot of the same things. Her husband wanted her and couldn't/wouldn't break it off with other woman, and well, for her it was time for her to find herself, and her own path, not to say that is what you should do, but just a suggestion to read those back posts. I certainly am not an expert since my husband is just the opposite of yours. He stopped all contact, begged for forgivness and is in China waiting for us to join him. He is so remorseful for his infidelity that he thinks his time in China without us is punishment from God for what he did. Even though I still have to deal with everything at home, and my time alone is filled with memories of his affair and the contact the O/W had with me and the conversations via e-mail, and phone calls, but China will be a new beginning for all of us and I am looking forward to it. Any way, take care and look out for yourself. At this point, that is the most important thing, securing your future, and protecting yourself, personally, financially, and in every other way. Good Luck, Mouse

The many years ( I haven't a clue how many anymore!) I've been on the board I have heard THAT story MANY times.

I hope I can make this clear. It is a combination of our interpretation of their foggy thinking, aided by OW manipulation.

I learned this over the years here. Ya gotta trust me on this!

If your H truly loved her he would have left you. If your H did not love YOU he would not be putting up with your nonsense now.

He felt entitled. Yeah, that concept I do understand. It is a common one.

What you need to do a lot of research on is foggy thinking. You will learn that some version of the above story is so common. So very very common.

Carol, you are going through a painful time right now. I could go on forever trying to explain it to you, but the best I can do is say in time you will learn the real truth.

One other example might help..

When I was trying to understand their relationship, I asked the guys here for help about sex. They told me, to a man ANY sex is good sex! I needed to understand that cauese to me love and sex are the same.

We each understand things differently and give our own personal interpretation to them. H did NOT plan on using you, much as it feels that way to you. That is cause LOGICALLY that is what you heard. It is NOT what he meant.

What he meant, was "they " could go on smoking and effing, the kids could have their Mommy, the Pizzeria could continue to function, and he could have what he is entitled to.. a loving wife and a mistress. It is what his father had, it is what a lot of men feel entitled to. You gat a problem with that? It was not about hurting you, it was simply that is how life is...

It took me time to understnad this thinkig. It was when H FINALLY proved to me ( it took time) that his love for me was the ONLY reason he was here that I stopped feeling the pain and started hearing his words, not MY version of love, affairs, and life. Once I understood his simple stupid logic.. not my painful, moral emotional interpretation once I understood HIS view point,.. I finally understood.

I hope I've helped.
EL

El is so right. We always see things through our own lens - it is impossible for me to understand the crazed thinking of my H during his A's.
And, like your H, Carol, mine told himself all kinds of insane things:
-He was entitled because of how special he is
-He was entitled because he wasn't getting enough attention at home
-You only live once; shouldn't deprive himself of experiences
-He is European - that is what European men do
-I wouldn't care because I was so involved with our kids
-He was unique, a rebel - rules of ordinary people don't apply to him
-I would understand because I understand his need for excitement
-He would be a fool to give up an opportunity for sex with a young, adoring fan
-I didn't really love him - just wanted his money (really crazy when I make almost as much as he does.)

My H was also addicted to alcohol. I think, Carol, that your H also had addictions, which, I have learned add fuel and justification to A's.

My H also became addicted to the excitement, the thrill and its clandestine nature.

How could any sane person accept that kind of selfish, cruel ridiculous thinking?

And, the truth is that he wasn't trying to hurt me or humiliate me....and maybe that is the most hurtful thing ...the truth is that he didn't think of me at all...and the OW certainly didn't. I feel like I didn't exist.
He didn't think of me, alone, lonely and abandonned every night while he was out getting what he was "entitled" to. Told himself that I was getting what I wanted - life with my children.So painful when he was the center of my life and the one who was supposed to cherish and love me.

No more. Never again.

Thank you El....yes, it did help But I wonder, can there be more of a selfish (or narcassitic) excuse than I was entitled? That just blows my mind! 

And thank you too Susan...yes, my H has addiction issues...work, pot, the A, and who knows what else.  He is also passive-aggressive, as most who have addictions are. I think the "high" they get from substance/alcohol abuse gives them "delusions on grandure", lol. My H is also European. He moved to the US when he was five...and they still do everything "the old way".  His father cheated (as El pointed out), and so did every male in his family.  So yes, I guess he thought he was entitled. I informed him last night, that he wasnt, and he had no right to do what he did! All he could say was that he was sorry.

Take Care ...Carol~

Susan and El,

all I can say is beautifully said...

Susan, I can see my H in your answer, his thinking for so many years...


Carol,

your H is communicating with you...hard to hear the lalaland truth but he is talking and that is because you are still there after all he told you during his last opening up with you

Carol Just remember that he choose to stay with you, is fighting in his way to be part of your family...that is the rebuilding of a better relationship...two steps forward...one step back...think of a baby just starting to walk...tottering all over the place...up and down..same type of thing that is happening in your relationship...just baby steps right now, but a beginning...patience and time..


Reread EL post...it will help you.

((((hugs))))

Pat




Time is precious, but truth is more precious than time.

I for one do not want to be seeing the WS point of view to the extent that I accept it.  I also, incidentally do not accept that to all men all sex is good - this is very insulting to men and not true.  To me sex is a deep and significant thing that is not taken lightly by me and I would know that if I ever had sex outside my marriage it would mean the end of the marriage.

I think is BSs have to accept some pretty humiliating truths and take them on board.  For me the truth is that people in As can and do feel love and deep feelings for OPs.. just as in all relationships.. these are not different.  The uncomfortable fact that so many of us fight against in the very heart of our being is that an A does speak very loudly about how our spouses feel also towards us.  I have felt the response from so many here when I say this sort of thing I realise it is upsetting to many to face this but, surely there can be no denying that having an A is not loving and much more is an affront that wounds others deeply - It is a despicable act of .. well, to put it midly "lack of care".. but to my mind it is the opposite of love.  Such acts are committed by un-well people as they are also self-destructive.  I believe it is foolish to try to hold on to some notion that what was going on was, in some way, understandable "because WS loved me all along" or "he was in a fog" or "addicted" etc.. .  Should we not face the cruel facts that WSs do terrible, cruel and heartless things.  Only from this can we begin to move towards understanding, acceptance, forgiveness etc.  And then perhaps renewal and a rebirth of a new relationship... If such is possible. 

Last point:  We are all cruel, heartless and unloving in various degrees.  We are all human.  When I say things about WSs I also look to myself and examine the faults that lie in every one of us.  When we face the harsh truths we should also face and forgive ourselves too. 

may you be safe and well, contented and happy

Dear Jerry,

You make some excellent points. I have decided that my "old" marriage is no more.  Gone! History! Can a new one be rebuilt? I see the possibility that it can but is it what I want...Im not sure yet. You may want to know why I see the possibility? Because neither of us are the same person anymore. H has made some positive changes. I know have something to base a decision on. I see how he was in the past, and I see how he is NOW. I will base my decision on the now, not on the past. I still need to re-examine my needs as I process this new revelation. I still need to put myself first and focus on me to make that decision. I want to make sure I am here because I want to be here, not out of fear. It is hard to stand back and look at the situation objectively when you are in the middle of it.  The same goes for the WS while they are in the A.

The fog is exactly that, a point at which a WS is not in their right mind.  Their thought process is askew. How could it be otherwise.  It does not mean they had no feelings for the OP, it means it was more about how the OP made the WS feel about themselves and that is what their feelings are based on.  Is that love?  No, how can it be?Love is not based on lies.  I would say that my H did not love the OW nor did he love me, and he certainly was not loving himself.  Which was the problem to begin with.  Had he loved himself he would not have the need to use someone else (pot, work) to make himself feel better about himself. He used these thing to avoid dealing with his pain. It is "self" focused but in a selfish way, not in a loving way. Just as H used pot & work, he also used the OW. That's what an addiction is, no matter what it is to. It's all about using someone or something else to make yourself feel better. Instead of looking inside of yourself and finding happiness you look outward.  That never really works. Temporarily yes, but not in the long run. I feel good about me and I took my vows seriously, which is why I didnt cheat when I felt abandoned and alone, when I felt my H didnt care about me. I kept "me" going, not drugs or alcohol, or an A.  I looked for help when I found I couldnt do that for myself anymore.  Seeking help is healthy, using someone or something is not.  That is the difference between me and my H.

Can I forgive him for what he has done?  I dont know yet.  It is through acceptance that we let go of the pain.  Without letting go, there is no moving forward and forgiving.  It is through forgiveness that we grow. I have grown a lot because I have forgiven myself for many things that I allowed to happen, and I am still working on forgiving myself.  Perhaps when I have found firgiveness within myself, it may be possible to forgive my H at some point. But forgiveness doesnt just happen, it is something to work towards if it is true forgiveness and if it is to have any meaning or value .

Take Care...Carol~

Jerry, Carol,
Interesting debate. I am at the point that I don't believe H loved me or anyone during the A's. And, frankly, I am not even sure I care that he loved me in some theoretical sense of the word. He did not behave with love towards me and that is what I despise him for. Love is no longer just an idea for me - it is behavior. Now, his behavior is kind, compassionate, caring, patient - this is the kind of love I want today.

I do, however, think it is important to understand the thinking of the WS, as crazy as it was in my case. It is my way of reconstructing my life...of trying to re-visit my history with truth instead of delusion. And, with that understanding, I finally have a choice as to whether I want to be here or not.

Jerry, I can't speak for all addictions but alcoholism is a very real disease that leads to insane, selfish, grandiose, "I am the center of the universe" behavior. And, I suspect, as Carol says that all addiction is about numbing the pain, the self-loathing.
I do forgive him for the acoholism but as even though it is a contradiction, I don't yet forgive him for the pain and wreckage it created in all of our lives.....however, through understanding, I do have compassion and that is where love and forgiveness begins for me.

He and I are two new people falling in love today with the benefit of shared experiences ( though many are polluted and blocked from my life). He is not who I married. He is not who I lived with for 23 years. And, thankfully, neither am I. But, there has to have been something at the core of our beings that is allowing us to find love with eachother now.

We are working hard at it with the help of professionals - IC, MC and AA and are also doing things together to create bonds and shared perspectives (Buddhism classes, yoga classes,dinners with other couples, reading the same books,going to theatre, astronomy, AA meetings - can't quite believe we are actually doing these things myself but we have brought our passions and interests to eachother - astronomy was definitely not my contribution and yoga was definitely not his.)

Lest you think we are riding off into the sunset in wedded bliss, I assure you there is still much pain and anger. I cry at least once a day and have to fight back lashing out at him in mean, unhealthy, punishing ways (not always successfully). I don't trust him yet and am like a parole officer in needing to know his whereabouts at all times. I suffer from debilitating panic attacks and flashbacks and hate that sick alcoholic person who brought these things into my life.

In the end, for today, I would rather be on this path with him than on a different one without him...but I am prepared to go another route if he does not behave with love and respect.

<<In the end, for today, I would rather be on this path with him than on a different one without him...but I am prepared to go another route if he does not behave with love and respect.>>

I feel the same way....

Take Care...Carol~

hi carol

entitled WTF - OUCH

that is not nice to say the least.

but him wanting to be entitled to something and loving you are two different things.

sure he might love you, and that could have been genuine and still be genuine. but entitled to something else, a bit of fun, a bit on the side etc etc, i work hard and would like to be entitled to have a sugar daddy or a smart car, and still love my H and kids, but him saying entitled says a lot about his mind set.

he needs to love you and feel entitled to have you and the kids and the business and the family and all that goes with it.

in fact i think he needs to learn the difference between entitled and PRIVILEGED!!!!!

mm, sorry a bit grumpy with him here ( ironic laugh)

hugs girl
kath
ps, i would feel entitled to give him a click around the ear, this wasnt my first thought, and we shouldnt promote violence, it doesnt achieve anything but boy if anyone was entitled to do that - you would be after his comment haha (ironic laugh)

pss. if OW feels so entitled to have such a relationship with him, let her have him and all the work that goes with supporting, managing and dealing with him, i bet she wouldnt last a week haha

Kath,

Your post made me laugh, lol.  You are too funny my friend.  But your reaction was a bit like mine.  I was pretty enraged when he told me he felt entitled because he works so hard.  I said I work hard to, am I not "entitled" to a loyal and failthful husband? Are our children not "entitled" to have their father pay attention to them? I said our children deserve to have their father be a part of their lives and I deserve to have my husband present in the marriage. And what did OW do?  Did she work herself into exhaustion taking care of the kids, the house, the pizzeria...making sure that you had dinner waiting for you every night and your clothes were clean?  I did all the work and she sat back (more like spread her legs) and reaped the rewards! All he could say was that I was right and that he was sorry.  Somehow that just doesnt make it all any better does it? We are talking years of abuse...sorry just doesnt cut it!

Just a bit of a rant ....Carol~

well at least he gets it and if you hadnt had to run around being a mother and father then he wouldnt have had the luxury of playing, he wasnt entitled to anything cause he didnt do anything to deserve such a treat hahaha

maybe he could get you a treat now for all the work you have done, i am sure you are entitled to something, maybe a decent life would be a good start haha

i have to laugh, H asked me what i was typing and i said, "C's H said he thought he was entitled to have an A cause he worked hard etc" his response " huh - laugh - sorry not right"

cheers
kath