For the first time in months I cant sleep. It is 4:25 am! I cleaned the kids bathroom and the hall closet while WH is fast asleep.
My mind is spinning. Monday WH was so helpful, yet I am suspicious. With tears in my eyes, I ask him if he is going to our business so he can call OW. He says no. He says he is happy with the way things are going and that he has been having a lot of fun with me and the kids. He says he enjoys spenidng time with us. My response was "it could have been this way all along but you chose for it not to be". He kissed me and he left to go do some paperwork. He was gone about an hour. He came back looking stoned. My heart sank. Why is he here? I dont get it.
He and OW had more in common. They both like the same music, they both like to drink, and they both like to get high. Neither of them cared about anyone except themselves. So why does he care now? Where was he when I needed him for the last 5 years? He was there for her and for himself but not for me and the kids. When I look back I amazed at what I put up with. I have so many questions again. Is this normal at 11 months past d-day? We have not really talked about the A in awhile. No wonder he feels happy with the way things are going. I am the one hurting...I am the one wondering if he really ended the A. Afterall, I had two d-day, two years apart, same OW. How do I know? The answer I keep coming up with is that I dont know. Will I always wonder? Will there always be this doubt? ANd after reading Lucille's story, who knows?
Strange things make me upset. When we were on vacation I paid for everything! He would purposely wait outside the shops and would not even ask me if I needed any money. I thought, I doubt he would have done that with OW if he were here with her. He would have paid for everything. Just like he paid for her gas every time she saw him, and the waterbed, and her car, and whatever else he bought her!!! Tonight we went to the local carnival and the samething! I paid for everything while he goes off and sits on a bench and waits for us to finish riding the rides. I wonder what's going on? Is it because I dont "work"? I work, but it is for our business and only part time. The rest of the time I spend taking care of the house and the kids. Does he not appreciate it? I guess it just irks me that he paid for so many things for OW and I know that he would be running to the fornt of the line and jump and the chance to pay. I guess I am puzzled and hurt by his behavior.
I am also wondering if he told her she was pretty or beautiful, or that he loved her. He told me he didnt but Im sure he is lying <sigh>. I also wonder what sexual position they must have been in for him to get those scratches across the front of his shoulders he used to get...hmmm...I just dont know how they could have possibly happened...seems almost impossible unless she was behind him...makes me wonder...maybe I am just inadequate which is why we hardly have sex anymore. Funny how after 18 years of marriage and having sex on a daily basis, suddenly he is not interested...and even when he acts interested he cant make it to the end most times. I just somehow feel unattractive because of this new developement. I guess I was just used to the way things were. But why did he have enough energy for both of us before and now he doesnt have enough for just me? Makes me wonder, that's all.
~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha
Should have called me, I regularly wake up btwn 3 and 4:30 in the am. Ugh! I read it is the first sign of the change. Ugh again! I don’t mean to make light of what you are going through. You are such a caring and giving person. Unfortunately your husband takes that for granted. We all tend to look at the world from our own slant on things. We expect people to act similarly to how we would act in a situation, and when they don’t we are very disappointed. You are expecting something from your husband that just doesn’t occur to him. You felt if you gave him time, space and compassion he would eventually feel safe opening up more and more to you. The thing is, your H is very comfortable with doing the very minimal that he has to in regards to this, and he has no desire to change.
You have stuffed your feelings, questions, needs. Now they want out. This goes back to the need to bleed thread, and how very important this phase of recovery is for both. The Affair needs to be talked to death. The first year should be about the BS with a gradual acceptance and growing empathy for the WS pain. You are the victim, not him.
Ami is right on about H doing the least he can, if you'll put up with it he wont change. I'm going through the same thing.
Have you talked to H about how you relate his getting high with the A. Although you prefer that he didn't get high, it doesn't necessarliy mean he is back to the A. Did he only smoke since he met her or is it a long term addiction? I'm not condoning the pot smoking, but if it is a long term addiction then it may have nothing to do with the A. All the same, you should follow your gut instincts.
I think we are very much in a similar situation, and I know I am at the point that I don't even want to talk to my H about anything, but that really isn't helping. So my suggestion to you would be to try and talk it over with him and explain how his getting high and the money situation is making you feel very insecure.
I am going through menopause. I started right around Dday #2 in 2004. I'm still waking up at night with hot flashes (and incidentally, the average number of years that a woman experiences hot flashes--don't pass out now--FIVE years!). Most nights, I throw off the covers and go back to sleep, but every once in a while, I'm awake. I HATE those nights.
Cal, I so understand your pain. I think it all relates back to our thinking that our WS would do anything for OP, including risking losing the marriage they claim they don't and never did want to lose, but won't do something as simple as pay for items, or be spontaneous and plan outings. We end up feeling second-fiddle, used, hurt, IGNORED when they do these things. We relate all those behaviors to the A. Sometimes I think we really do relate just about every hurt back to the A, whether doing so is valid or not.
I know you have talked to your H about his smoking a billion times already, and you know where that has gotten you. But have you told him your resentment about his not paying for things? To be fair to him (and I know you try hard to be), he can not read your mind. So if you haven't told him, perhaps you will consider telling him. If he refuses to change, THEN you can jump him on this.
Regardless, I am so sorry you are hurting, sweetie. I full well understand and sympathize about being awake and hurting while the big lumox sleeps peacefully! This situation just doesn't feel fair. Pooey!
You are right...the need to bleed does exist, especially for me right now. I am sure my WH has a few things he'd like to get off his chest himself, but being the passive-agressive guy that he is he will never say the first word. It's always up to me. For once I would like him to initiate a conversation. Now that would be something! We really need to go to MC. I strongly believe that. I think not only would it be a way for me to bleed but also a safe way for WH to say what he needs to say as well. At this point if we dont go soon the window of opportunity for our marriage to make it may be closed because I cannot take it. He makes it so hard to talk to him...the big conflict avoider that he is. I think MC would help get him to open up more so we can work through this together!
There is a lot of change I will certainly give WH credit there. I dont get the changes in sexual apetite though. They went from one extreme to the other. Every since we were together he wanted it on a daily basis, and before the A, yes, it was making love. Some time in the middle of the A it became sex, and as you know sometimes on demand. Can't there just be a happy medium there? LOL.
Although we hardly went anywhere together during the A, he always paid for everything since we've been together (over 20 years now)! Now, suddenly, I have to pay for everything! It's not about the money...it all comes from the same place (our business)so it doesnt really matter who pays in the end. For me, it's about him being the man, the gentleman, and gestures of love. When A man pays a woman feels adored and appreciated...she feels secure and taken care of and loved. Im not feeling that right now! I feel like he is saying "I have done enough to make the money, take care of yourself....I dont want anything or need anything and Im not going on the ride so why should I pay for it?" It just appears selfish to me, especially knowing how generous he was with the OW when it came to money and helping her out. And considering that he regularly tips people who are not supposed to be tipped, this really, really irks me!!! He will go into a convenience store for coffee and he has tipped 3 people before we leave the store...the person behind the counter making the coffee, the lady cleaning the center where the coffee is made and the cashier! By the time he is done we could have went to Starbucks twice! And yes, since he was getting coffee he did pay for mine, lol. What a sweetheart
~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha
Thank you for your reply Lisa. I will try to answer your questions.
<<Have you talked to H about how you relate his getting high with the A.>>
Yes I have and he knows exactly how I feel. At first he agreed to quit. But after about 3 months he decided that if someone offers him pot he should be allowed to smoke it (great logic there, right?). He also declared that his smoking has nothing to do with the A. Unfortunately that is not true. Smoking pot together is how the A started. They were party buddies from high school who happen to run into each other again and started getting high together...one thing lead to another and viola! You have an A!!! So if he is smoking he is still vulnerable to an A and I know this.
<<Although you prefer that he didn't get high, it doesn't necessarliy mean he is back to the A.>>
True. But getting high behind my back is the same behavior as having the A was. That is what I sense...that he is doing something he should be doing...something he promised me he wouldnt do. Since we had two d-days and he has been lying to me about smoking there is very little trust right now. If he is lying to me about smoking I wonder what else he is lying about. At this point, more lies only makes things worse, not better. Lies should not be tolerated. It is lies that hide his addiction and it was the lies that hid the A. Lies are destructive to any relationship and even worse when you are trying to rebuild trust.
<<Did he only smoke since he met her or is it a long term addiction? I'm not condoning the pot smoking, but if it is a long term addiction then it may have nothing to do with the A. All the same, you should follow your gut instincts.>>
Actually, since he did meet her in high school, technically he has been smoking since he met her, lol. Although he did smoke recreactionally prior to the A, he became addicted just before the A. His bestfriend/cousin died, we lost a baby, and then he was in a car accident where he had a head trauma, stitches, and a broken bone. When he was healing from the accident he became depressed and addicted to pot...self medicated! Then he had the A. He was thrilled that he found someone to smoke with (since I wouldnt) and fulfill some of his pot fantasies. Again, as long as he is getting high he is vulnerable to having an A. In fact whenever he talks about the "good times" they always include "remember that time when we (meaning him and his "friends") were high? It was the best time of my life". So where does that leave me because I dont get high? Hmmm....obviously not in the "best time" of his life category.
<<I think we are very much in a similar situation, and I know I am at the point that I don't even want to talk to my H about anything, but that really isn't helping. So my suggestion to you would be to try and talk it over with him and explain how his getting high and the money situation is making you feel very insecure.>>
I am sorry you find yourself in a similar situation. It isnt easy at all to live with. It is very hard and emotionally draining. That is why I have to let go...the addiction is his business and I dont want pot in my life. It is time for him to grow up!!! He is 40 years old but is stuck at the maturity level of an 18 year old. That's what pot does to you. I have talked to him about the pot, many, many times, and since it is an addiction he doesnt hear me. But you are right about the money thing...I should talk to him. It is a new behavior that has recently popped up in the last month or so. So I was trying to figure it out....but of course I started to obssess about it. That's what happens when your world is turned upside down...
~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha
You always have such sound advice and I love you for it, and all of your fairy hugs
<<Cal, I so understand your pain. I think it all relates back to our thinking that our WS would do anything for OP, including risking losing the marriage they claim they don't and never did want to lose, but won't do something as simple as pay for items, or be spontaneous and plan outings. We end up feeling second-fiddle, used, hurt, IGNORED when they do these things. We relate all those behaviors to the A. Sometimes I think we really do relate just about every hurt back to the A, whether doing so is valid or not.>>
This is exactly how I feel. How can we not relate everything to the A that is making us unhappy or threatened? Right now that is all I see...how the A (and the pot) has ruined our lives. The A was his choice (and so was the pot) and I just wonder when/if he is going to learn to make better choices. I think as a BS we wonder this and we are on high alert to anything that may indicate they are still cheating. We now look at what our WS is doing more carefully and maybe with a more cynical eye than before. How can we not after being hurt so badly? I think it is a normal reaction to the trauma (PTSD).
<<I know you have talked to your H about his smoking a billion times already, and you know where that has gotten you. But have you told him your resentment about his not paying for things? To be fair to him (and I know you try hard to be), he can not read your mind. So if you haven't told him, perhaps you will consider telling him. If he refuses to change, THEN you can jump him on this.>>
You are right, we need to talk about. He never has time though. And when I cant take it anymore I lash-out. It has to come out, like Ami said. I would rather it come out in a trickle and talk about, rather than it gushing out like that. But he leaves me little choice there. But I will try
~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha
Have you ever considered the possibility that he is punnishing you? Punishing is a characteristic of Passive Aggressives, they just don't let you know what they are punishing you for.
Sweetie, I know you are hurting so much. Your H's behavior has worn you down, time after time. I can tell that you are near your breaking point. I guess I would ask if you have point blank told him so. If you haven't, then please, oh please do, for YOUR sake. Tell him what you want and need, and I know that his stopping smoking would meet a huge need, but right now, just going to MC and LISTENING to you and responding positively would go a loooonnnggg way towards dealing with your frustration and resentment.
I do understand how we look at EVERYTHING with a very jaundiced eye. My H has done and continues to do pretty much everything I ask of him. I see him evolving into a much, MUCH better person; however, I still get panicky sometimes and still check up on him sometimes, even though he is doing NOTHING to make me feel insecure now. But you are so right--once we are on high alert, it is tremendously difficult to get off it!
And I HATE that. I know I am not at all helped being OCD because my thinking is so black/white, all/none. It spills over into every segment of my life (how could it not because that is how my brain wants to work and left to its own choice does work), and part of my work in dealing with life is for me to examine how I think and recognize when I am letting OCD determine my state of anxiety. You, on the other hand, have much more reason to still be on high alert than I do, but I want you to know that I do understand and sympathize with your plight.
If I still lived in your neck of the woods, I would come take you out for cappuccino--we'd go to Starbuck's and I'd buy us both VENTI drinks and not tip! Ha! So there!
Take care of yourself. You are a wonderful, attractive, smart, inspiring, loving person.
Cal, I have not read all the thread but I picked up a couple of things:
First the fact that he paid for things for OW: In my view this could be because he was trying to say in his head that he was paying for the relationship and that gave him an excuse for not investing himself in it. This may also show why, in some convoluted way he may like you to pay sometimes now. Does this make sense. Perhaps he wants you to express your care for him in that way (not that he thinks you are paying for him to be nice to him!.. better stop explaining so much now). In any case I feel he may be expressing a different response to you in this and that is good and shows a change in him. Also, possibly his feeling he does not have to perform sexually with such frequency may also be an expression of his new attitude to you ie it may also be good and illustrates his feeling comfortable just to be there.. Sex can be quite physical and not love-making as we all know. He is getting older too and he may simply be just making love when he really feels like it rather than when he feels he has to "perform". .. But don't listen to me I am not a therapist!
Second the point you said about him starting a conversation: I have the same thing with my wife. Ami mentioned something about "punishing" you but I see this from a different perspective. It seems to me that this passive agressive is based on fear ie a kind of "attack is the best form of defence". I just wrote this and found something similar said in Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive-aggressive_behavior
I feel that both you and I have had some similarities in dealing with our spouses who both seem to feel rather inadequate about themselves, lacking a true belief in how good/ well/ loveable etc. they are. My theory has been that forgiveness and taking them back might provide them some healing - My problem may be that I have been dealing with my own healing quite a lot and perhaps not dealt with hers enough up to now. It may be the same with you I don't know. Or... are we both getting drawn in to playing the old passive-agressive game being dealt out by our partners. I do wonder about this. Also, like you, however, I am setting much more definite boundaries and not being drawn into that old pattern - It is a bit as if I say now: "Look here, stand up and be strong in yourself or we are not going to make this work out". I seem to deal this out quite often when we meet to share and talk (each week now I visit for a day and stay overnight - in separate rooms of course and no sexual contact). You have, quite naturally, got caught up in your daily life again, husband in bed and kids in house - I have more space to play with and it may be different. In either case I feel that you, like me, am dealing with heavily entrenched behaviour patterns in our spouses - It is all very well for us to fix us.. It is a much more difficult.. ? impossible.. task to get spouse to change too. This is where I am at: somewhat frustrated by lack of progress on her side.
may you be safe and well, contented and happy
This message has been edited by JerryBond on Jul 14, 2007 5:53 AM
Thank you for your response Jerry, it is wonderful to hear from you
I am still not at the point of being able to forgive. I guess this time I want to do it right, for lack of a better way of explianing it. After d-day 1, and I saw that my WH was having a hard time, I just up and forgave him. I thought it was what he needed to continue in the relationship. I was wrong. It was what they call "cheap forgiveness" and it didnt do either of us any good. I believe now that it is a process and when I am ready this time I will forgive...but I am not there yet...not is he. In order to accept forgiveness he must first work on himself and forgive himself. Then he will be open to true forgiveness. If he doesnt feel he desreves it and I am not ready to give it, then it is not true forgiveness, IMO.
It is very difficult to live with someone who is passive-agressive. And yes, his behaviors are very entrenched. You could say that even his pot addiction is partly due to his passive-agressiveness...that he cannot trust in himself to be able to deal with "life" without it...that he can develope new ways of dealing with things instead of turning to pot. His dependence on it is a clear example of that I believe. And like most passive-agressives he is a conflict avoider and intimacy avoider....it goes with the territory as they say. So it is very hard to have that "openess" we all seek and find necessary to heal from this. That is what really seems to be missing here for me...that openess...his inability to just share his thoughts and feelings with me. And that is another reason why it was so easy for him to have an A. It is all related...the passive-agressiveness, the pot, the avoidance of intimacy and conflict. And it is a hard shell to crack! As you said, we can only change ourselves.
~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha
Thank you for your response and for all of your input. It is greatly appreciated. I am going to talk to my IC about MC yet again and tell him how I feel.
Ami,
I thought about what you said about WH trying to punish me. I believe you are right. I had to think about it and now I think I know. Two things have happened recently.
One, as you know, my WH was using our business as a political platform and I disapproved. We haseveral discussions about it. Well, the day before we went to the shore for the 4th of July he took everything down! I didnt even notice until he said something when we got back and reopened. I asked him if he resented me for how I feel and he said no, but I dont believe that. Perhaps making me pay for everything on the vacation and even at the carnical was punsihment. However, I did not ask him to take all the political stuff down, I only told him how I felt about putting up more of it up.
Two, we had the argument about the pot and his lying. He could be punishing me for forcing him to admit it. But who knows? Like you said, they never tell you why they are mad, but they make sure they get even for it in their minds. I believe that was true about the A as well. I always felt he was punishing me by having the A. For what? I dont know! He still wont talk to me about all of it, only gives me bits and pieces of how he felt.
~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha
This message has been edited by SoCalGal on Jul 14, 2007 8:35 PM
I missed reading this post the other day when you posted it.
You have got some good advice. Not much more to add, but I have come to the conclusion (in my situation) that my H will never realize / understand the full impact of what he did. I think about it frequently like you.... what he said to them, the I love yous, sex and so on, however and to my suprise at times, he seems to not think about it at all - like it never happend. How come I think about it and he, who was the one that did it, doesnt? I wonder where his conscience is or what state it is in for someone to do what he did, get caught, get caught, get caught and still act like it is water under the bridge and everything is just fine.
I dont think he will ever see how serious the impact of all this was on me.
PG 18 Part**
As far as the sex... I had wondered that too. How did he have the engergy for me and at one time 2-3 others and yet while we were trying to reconclie from Feb-June this year, we maybe had sex once a week. Before I found out about the A(s) we were at least 3-5 times per week. How it made me feel??? Even during the reconcile it made me feel like I was not attractive for him anymore or the others were more "fun," .... I started thinking that maybe thats why he looked elsewhere - I just wasnt good at it or something. (However, I have had no complaints in the past! Tee-hee.) I even went through the stage when I first found out about his. A(s)of initiating sex all the time... the old stake my claim theory and thinking if he got tons from me that he wouldnt look elsewhere... there was a few week period back in last August where it was every day. Heck, he should have been exhausted, yet he still was sleeping with them too.
The only thing I came up with during our reconcile that made sense was guilt.... maybe he felt guilty for what he had done and a big part of what he had done was the sex. So - he felt guilty having sex with me or anyone. Then again I think about that theory and know that to feel guilt the person has to have a conscience and I have doubts about that, so who knows. It is a mystery, I guess.
I am sorry about all this with your H.
Hugs to you,
Coral
"A discovery is said to be an accident meeting a prepared mind."
