<<For us to be together a year later despite of the immense amount of pain is a testament to our strong love for each other.>>

I do love my WH and I know he loves me. Sometimes love is not enough, but I wish it were. Today I woke up feeling very sad, and very lonely...I miss him. I miss him so very much. I want nothing more than to have his arms around me and to feel comforted. But I know that isn't going to solve anything or help either of us in the long run. So I sit here all alone...sad...crying...and not knowing what the future holds for me, my WH, and my children.

I know I have done more than enough, but it does not lessen the pain. And every now and then I think is there more I could have done, or is there more I can still do? What about MC? Maybe I need to do it for me...even if it will not help WH (because he is still getting high, it is the same as if he were still cheating). MC is not only used to help save a M, it can also be used to let go of it. WH does seem to be looking inside of himself and some of the fog is lifting or am I just being sucked back in? Should I get on with my life and allow IC for him to run it's course before trying MC, if at all? I do plan on talking to my IC about this as well but my next appointment isnt for anotehr two weeks and I just need some feedback now. Right now the thought is I should just get on with my life. But I cannot help to think, every now and then, about the rest of it. This is how I feel today, a little confused, and very sad, and it is probably the result of the last few talks we have had. I do know that it is up to him to do more, not me. That he needs to do it for himself.

I wish I hated him....but I don't. I hate what he has done, but I still love him. If I didn't love him this would be so much easier.


~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

I am so sorry you are hurting. If I were still in your neck of the woods, I would drive over and take you out for cappuccinos. I so much understand your sentiments. I have told my H almost your exact words. We hate what they did, but we don't hate them. We love them. If we didn't, our pride would have led us to divorce court a long time ago. Our love kept us in our marriages.

Gentle fairy hugs,

fairyfriend

Cal - I'm sending big hugs your way. I'm having a hard day myself...and am just so tired of them. H left today for an overnight business event and he gave me all the logistical proof that nothing else is happening. But emotionally, he gave no kind of support (though I was asked by him earlier in the week to make sure I packed things that would make him think about me).

I question how emotionally mature some of these WS's are - - are they truly able to see past themselves? Little kids see the world only from their own eyes. Most people, as they grow, move past that egocentric place. For those that don't, why don't they?

Like you, I recognize that it would be easier to not love H. But it is a hard and scary thought to process and I try to not think about that too much. I do love him. And today I'm seeing that I'm able to give more to him than perhaps he's able to give me.

Anyway, I need to get going with the day and getting kids off to school. I wish I had more words of support or advice. If we were in the same place, I'd share my box of kleenex with you. BlueIris

PS - Back from running the kids to school, but your post and your situation are very much on my mind. Dear Cal, you've wracked your brain and done everything under the sun to help your H, to save your M and to find your place in all of it. Please don't second guess yourself on that.

Your thought on MC now might be helpful and is worth considering. Listen to your heart and your head.

This thread and the one on Open that's "Not THE talk" give me the feeling that your "hope bank" doesn't have a lot in it anymore. That's a hard place to be. You're realistic enough to know that hope alone can't save the M, but there are enough shards of hope left that it doesn't feel like its time to throw in the towel. It sucks.

I'm holding you in my heart, Cal. Wish there was more I could do or say. BlueIris

"We cannot wait for the storm to pass; we must learn to walk in the rain."

((((((Cal))))))

Your immense pain always saddens me because you are trying so hard and H never seems to meet your needs. I totally understand your confusion because I am also always so confused.

I was going to respond under your post on Open and then read this one and my heart broke for you.

You ask if there is something more you could have done (to save your marriage). I don't think so, at this point you have done all you can. The ball is in H's court on saving the marraige. The only thing I can see that you could do is to give H more time to look in to himself. It appears he has started. But it is too soon to tell if he will continue with IC and really dig deep. In the post from Open, like FF & Sun I did not mean in anyway that you should let him come back home or even take D off the table in your mind, I meant that maybe you could look at his actions today and give him a little more time and encouragement to open up.

Going back to MC could help, but I think I would wait until he has continued in IC for awhile. See if he is really commited to change or enlightenment. I tend to jump if I see a little hope and it just usually leaves me disappointed. But looking at your situation as an outsider, I would say wait and see if there is any further revelations from him.

I too have said so many times I wish I hated him, it would make it so much easier to leave. I wish he would just leave and tehn I wouldn't be responsible for the decision. C told me the other day h will never leave, he is not an initiator, he will never be the one to make the first move and she is right. It just makes it a little bit harder to believe he wants to stay married, or is he only here because he wont initiate and doesn't accept change well?

Cal I wish I had answers for you (and me and all of us), but of course I don't. All I can offer yuo is my sugestions, point of view and cyber hugs. I hope your day gets better.

Lisa

Dear Cal ((((((((((((((Hugs to you)))))))))))))))

I can so much relate to you. I havent responded here for a long time, but have been reading almost every day. It is hard to read and realise that so much people are affected by infidelity, and are struggelig. We have all hoped for something better. When I discovered his As, it had been going on from we met when I where 31 years. When D-day #1 happened in 2002 (he told me about one ONS)I was 52, and D-day #2(he told me abour many As)I where 51 years old.

My WH is like yours. He is passive/agressive and dont like to talk. He tells me that he has put a "cover" (dont know the right word in English)on it. He has accepted it has happened, it is nothing he can do to make it disappear, and then he cant manage to do any more than to be with me. I want him to talk to me, but when I try to talk about who he is and why it happened, he becomes angry. Still, 4 1/2 years after D-day #2, this is the case. I know this is why we are not furhter in our R. Because I still have triggers, wich leads to huge confrontations between us. I feel his avoidance is killing me. I know it is my lack of setting boundaries that make this possible, but I find it so difficult.

I just want so say: Continue to stand up for yourself! I wish I had been as strong as you are! Go on, you have a life time ahead of you......

Hugs from Bjørg.

No words Cal....just ((((Hugs))))

Jetta

Just wondering...you've been so strong and solid in your postings, this is the first time in a while that you've turned back towards him. Maybe you should read some of your old posts. You might not miss him as much if you read the one where he didn't call you and you had to leave your children home alone while you went to find him. Or all the ones where he forever found excuses not to come home, call you, or whatever.

I don't know who I am to say anything. My H f'd two other women and I still love him. So....love him if you want to.

It is very hard to let go of your life and what you felt your future would be...your hopes and dreams. You can still let go and still love someone. Just as many of our WS's loved us when they were cheating....loving us didnt stop them. I just think I am feeling the way I do right now because of the talk we had...bringing up painful memories from the past. It is just that memories evoke feelings. Trust me, I am not forgetting all of the bad things he has done, but I am also not forgetting the good. How can you not miss someone who has been a part of your life for over 20 years, and who is the father of your children? He has only been out of the house for two months. I still need more time to completely let go but I really feel I am on the right path. What is it they say...two steps forward, one step back?

Thank you everyone for being there for me.

~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

Cal,

Two steps forward one step back is not the place you are in ... You haven't gone backwards ..you are still hurting from his decision..he is hurting too...but my friend he has to make the changes you need to go forward,,,and you haven't given in on what you need..so you haven't gone backwards...

Call your IC and see if he has any time to see you sooner.. Loneliness can be a catalyst for making a bad decisions.. You love your H...BUT Cal he is not there for you right now..he has to fix himself and be willing to do that.. AGAIN a selfish decision not to do the work to keep you and the kids in his life full time.

Just sending you lots of warm ((((hugs))))

Pat

"Time is precious, but truth is more precious than time."

Cal
((((((Hugs)))))
I admire you, your courage to take care of yourself, your sanity..How did you get that courage to decide that enough is enough ? I still have a hard time thinking about D, and separation at times...I think I am afraid of finding myself completely alone all at once( both my sons are striking out on their own)...but that seems to be the direction our M is heading.... many times I realize that I am alone even when H is in the house, we barely speak.. because H prefers to have his nose stuck in the TV, or to be sleeping in his recliner, than to have a conversation with me..It has been a year and 3 months, since D-day , I don't see enough remorse or desire from H to get insight into what posessed him to lie and cheat..( he prefers to be in his poor me, I'm feeling sorry for myself role ).....I don't hate my H, but I'm not sure that I love him any more, or is it just that I am sick of his victim attitude?
I do hope your days get better
Lisa

Thank you Pat. I am glad you do not see this as moving backward. I do know that my feelings about our talk about the baby has to do with how I am feeling right now. I am sure it will pass as I process this new information. Information that should have been told to me 10 years ago! I am still in a bit of shock, about why he could not be there for me...all he can say was that he was weak and afraid to show his emotions because he didnt want to be seen as being weak. That he doesnt know why he couldnt look past his fear of being perceived as weak and be there for me when I really needed him. That just drips with selfishness in my opinion. I do see him admitting that was hard for him, that he was indeed weak and not there for me, which is why I guess I "felt" for him.

This whole attitude so goes with the A and avoiding his feelings. His inability to handle the bumps in the road. As long as everything in life was fine we were good, we were happy. But as soon as something happened and things were not running smoothly, he'd just up and emotionally (and phycially) bail out on me, and the kids too. You are right Pat, he is just never really there for us....past and present. Until he figures out what his problem is there and works on it, he cannot be there. I do think he is finally working on it...but he is still holding onto the pot. Until he lets go (remember the log scenario?) of the pot completely he will continue to drown. And I have learned that I have to let him!

Thank you for your post...it helped me so much.

~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

Hi Cal, I was reading a book today and thought of you - It was talking about how we humans have a way of making our fears and worries into prisons for our lives and that many turn to drugs or other diversions to dull the pain.  The book was written by a therapist and she was explaining that many people end up having lived out the lives that were expected of themselves only to find they are unsatisfactory.  Now, I was thinking of your H and how he may have followed the expections held out for him by his parents and still felt trapped by doing this as it was not really his idea in the first place.  The book talked about how some form of aspirational spiritual glimpse can be what is needed by such people to get to see a way forward.  Sometimes there is progress in therapy if people get to a place where they literally break out and really find they are, after all, in power of their own lives and can actually be free to do what they want (which may even be what they are doing already but at least they are in charge).  I realise this issue of taking personal responsibility for our lives is somethign I have, myself, come to recognise in me.  And I wondered, more so, if your H actually felt trapped by his life, and in particular his business, even if, in reality, he is not.  I think we may have "talked" about this here before but I felt it again and wondered again.  Particularly I was struck by the kind of "rebellious" attitude and behaviour your H has towards religion and probably politics etc.. I felt perhaps this was really another of his attempts to actually defend his walls that imprison him.. I almost feel he is just flaying about and not really taking personal control - Of course this can be very destructive for those around him.  In his case I often think of him as a little difficult and teenage boy (I recall his picture from your Italian trip and he looked like that to me then).  I guess us men (in particular ) struggle to grow up compared to you sensible ladies.. But I now wonder if he needs a break-out from his own prison - And I fear that this may be difficult and painful .. or, perhaps, worse still, may not happen because nothing seems to really be fracturing with work .. Only your current separation will be a threat.. But may be he will react by retreating further into his delinquent self-absorbed minset like a difficult teenager.  He seems, in some ways like my father in law who lost his own life to his business.  How he breaks out of his prison is my question - May be he is getting there - May be there will be break-through.

may you be safe and well

I don't know if you remember me, Cal, but I used to post on the other site and I am familiar with your story. Last year my husband found the site and, as a result, I don't post much anymore. But I do check in there (and here) on occasion to see how people are doing. I remember when I first "met" you we both seemed to be struggling with the stay or go question. I finally made my decision. My husband and I separated legally last year (after living apart for almost two years) and our divorce will be final in a few weeks. I've asked many of the same questions you're asking. What you are facing is so painful and you're absolutely right that you can love someone and still let go; but it's excruciating and sometimes the aching need to be with that person is overwhelming. You can love someone until your heart breaks (and mine did) but in the end you'll have to pick up the broken pieces and figure out a way to move forward. It isn't easy. On more than one occasion I was ready to throw away every ounce of progress I had made for one more chance to "make things right," even though, deep down, I knew he had already moved on. It's so much easier to hold on (or in my case, cling desperately) to what we know than to take the risks involved in reaching for something better.

>>It is very hard to let go of your life and what you felt your future would be...your hopes and dreams.

Yes, it is. I have no words or wisdom on that subject. It hurts like hell.

>>I just think I am feeling the way I do right now because of the talk we had...bringing up painful memories from the past. It is just that memories evoke feelings.

I understand. That's why, as much as possible, I avoided talking to and/or seeing my husband once we legally separated. In my case that was much easier than it will be for you since he lived hundreds of miles away. But every time he came back home to visit the family, I got sucked into the past and I reeled from it long after he left. I would encourage you to keep contact to a bare minimum if at all possible. Your husband knows what strings to pull in you and he will use that knowledge to his advantage.

>>How can you not miss someone who has been a part of your life for over 20 years, and who is the father of your children?

You can't, Cal. Believe me, I've tried. I'm not sure I will ever be able to stop feeling "married" to the man I spent almost 30 years of my life with. I have found myself actually feeling envious of couples who were only together a few years and had no children when they divorced. It seems like they can make a much cleaner break and can choose to never have contact with each other again. Sometimes I think that would make things so much easier, but it's just not possible when you have children. You will always be tied by that bond and there will be occasions like graduations, weddings, grandchildren, etc, when you will be thrown together. And it will probably always hurt a little, though I have been assured it does get easier with time.

>>He has only been out of the house for two months. I still need more time to completely let go but I really feel I am on the right path.

I believe you are on the right path, too, and I know how hard you've struggled to get to this point. Understand that you might not ever "completely" let go, but know that you can let go enough that you will be able to move forward and make a better, happier, more fulfilling life for yourself. You've learned many lessons, good and bad, from these years with your husband and you will find them benefiting you in unexpected ways. I have met someone who has become very important in my life, and I know he's getting a much better version of me than my husband did. I may be older and sagging and gray, but I have much more to offer this man than I ever had to offer my husband because of, and in spite of, all the things I've learned in the past few years. But getting to this point was a slow process for me and I still have setbacks and moments of extreme doubt. I was married for a very long time, as I know you have been. You have to give yourself time and permission to grieve. It's normal and necessary. Try not to get too discouraged by the bad days. You will have them – maybe lots of them, but eventually you will have less and less of them. And you will be a little bit stronger at the end of each of those days, even though you may not feel that way at the time. It's a cumulative thing; have faith in the process. And when it's a lousy day, remind yourself that tomorrow might be better. And if it's not, there's always the day after.

I'm proud of you for taking steps to find peace in your life, Cal. I'm not going to tell you this will be easy but I do think a life free from the constant fight to be seen and heard has its advantages. I wish you all the best.

DG

((((((((((((Lisa)))))))))))

My Wh is also stuck in the poor me phase. My IC has told me that at times we all feel sorry for ourselves but then we pick ourselves up and move on....we realise we were just feelings sorry for ourselves and do something about it. He said that some people like to feel sorry for themselves all the time and do nothing to make things better for themselves, so they do not move on. They use this as an excuse to not take responsibility for their actions or inaction. They feel something was done to them so they have a right to just sit there and feel sorry for themselves. Then they dont feel they have to do anything to get out of the dark hole they are in. We cannot make them change or change their thought process. We can however change how we react to them. We have to put ourselves first and start taking care of ourselves. That is how you get to the point where enough is enough, and you know you deserve better. You take care of your needs and let him fend for himself. Eventually you start to feel better about you...you start to tackle your fears. The more you do this the more you will feel better about yourself and that will give you strength! One day you will be strong enough to do what you need to do for you...whether that is staying or going.

We all have choices...and we may question those choices. That is natural. In the end you have to decide if you can live with the choices you have made...so I choose ME! I have to live with me forever...the rest is optional

~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

Jerry,

Thank you for all of your thoughts and I do believe you are right on. Wh does not want to grow up and take personal responsibility for his choices. That goes along with the whole "poor me" thing. His father pushed the business on him, yes, but he accepted it. He could have said no, but he felt he had to out of obligation. I had no say either. One day I was in college working on my diploma, the next day I had a business to run, and I wasnt finished with college, lol. There was a lot thrown at US at once. I say US, he says HIM. So that tells ya something right there. HE needed to handle things...I say "together" WE could have handled anything. I said this is what YOU chose to do, now WE have to make the best of it. Again, the business is something he percives as being done to him, when it was his choice. I stood by him and supported his choice. I was there working, still studying for my diploma and taking care of our son and our house. I did everything I could to help him and the business succeed. But he feels he did it alone. It is "his" business. And he used that as an excuse for everything. "Sorry, I can't take you to the hospital because I need to go to work". "I cant take a vacation, our customers expect us to be open and I need to work". I began to resent the place because he always blamed the business for HIM not being there. He would tell me that if it werent for the business we would not be able to have this or that. I told him that I could care less about this or that, that I just wanted and needed him to be with me and the kids...to go on a vacation, to take time off...just to be with us. He couldnt do it and used the business as an excuse. So I started going on vacations without him. I told him that me and the kids desreved to go places and do things...so did he, but if he didnt want to go then we would go without him....and we did! I forced him to go to Italy...he has a panic attack at the airport and almost did not get on the plane. He was angry the entire trip. He was mean to me, the kids, and to his parents. He made us all feel like we were cruel to make him go and he was going to make sure to punish us for it. The business, his pot, and his OW were waiting when we got back. He went straight from the airport to work. Didnt even stop at home. He couldnt wait to get away from us and back to his prison. I told him all along he had the choice....he still blames the business. Maybe he will begin to see this or not, I have no idea. But I do know that it is up to him...and always has been.

Thank you Jerry.

~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

(((((((((((((DG)))))))))))

I do remember you. It has been a long time. I just wanted to say thank you so much for your post. It has has helped me more than you know. You have validated many of my feelings, and have given me hope that it will get better with time and that I am on the right path. Thank you for taking the time to help me sort through all of this...I really do appreciate it

Best wishes...

~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

Dear Cal,
I do know what you mean by being plagued by the "what if's" but at some point you need to say that you have done all you can. Only you can decide what that point is.

For me, I think I would want to give MC a try - just so that I wouldn't have to ask myself "what if we had gone to MC?"
If you know in your heart that MC won't help, don't waste your time or money.....it may just be that, right now, your H has to to his work on his own.

My thoughts are with you, as always.

We tried MC after d-day 1...but of course it didnt work because WH was still cheating and our therapist was a whimp. My current IC is also a drug & addictions C, and he sasy the same is true for someone with an addiction. As long as they are still actively addicted MC will not do any good. That is why we have not gone. I also agree...he needs to work on hismelf right now.

Today I was reminded of just how far away WH is from giving up the pot. I overheard him talking to a regular customer that we know pretty well. He said he was reading something in the paper about a woman who stole $200,000 worth of jewelry from her employer and hawked them for only $2,000. She got out of jail without having to post bail (for some unknown reason). My WH started bitching about how if someone was caught with just a little bit of drugs on them, just for personal use, how they would be thrown in jail for years and fined, and how their bail would be through the roof. He said it was just so unfair and shows just how stupid and our legal system is. I looked at him and I said "did you ever think that maybe this woman stole the jewelry in order to pay for her drug habit? Why else would someone steal $200,000 worth of jewelry and accept only $2,000 for it...someone who is desperate to buy drugs! If she didnt have a drug problem chances are she would not have stolen the jewelry." This was of course speculation on my part, but I said it because I know that my BIL did this exact same thing when he was desperate for drugs and needed his fix. He stole from his mom. And he hawked a $2,000 laptop he got for Christmas for $200 to get his fix. Suddenly all the "good" feelings and my "missing him" went right out the window!!!

~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

EDITED TO ADD: I saw this saying today and it made me smile because it was just so true:
"Never make someone a priority who considers you an option"

Cal, at first I noticed from your last post that you did not point out that your H was advocating an approach that might apply to him too - and how he might end up in jail for a long time?  Then I thought that his behaviour in talking about this within your hearing is exactly what someone seeking attention like a little delinquent boy would do - Asking for your sympathy.  But, we are all little boys at heart (speaking of men anyway) and perhaps this is his way of wanting to see if he can get you to "care" as he might see it.  Either that or he is being just plain provocative and poking provocation at you as a kind of getting his own back for you finally showing you have a part in this relationship.  I don't kow - but provocation can be a place that unhealthy relationships go - and it can turn even worse and become abuse along that road.  Hostilities never really made for good relationships.  Just some thoughts.

may you be happy

((((Carol))))

I feel your heartache as I know it is so much like my own dearest Cal.  I can only say that I am letting go and not looking back, for to look back and wish for something that will not be is too painful to bear.  I can only look forward to the promise of a bright and healthy future and the happiness it may bring me someday.

 

Cal,

I think it is totally normal to do the 'what if's'. Heck, I am still working on the marriage and I do what if's regarding what I should have done, should have said. I think what you are dealing with emotionally is very normal. THink of it as stages of grief. Don't you think that if you go towards D, that you will need to experience those stages? I think we do it in the marriage, and if you consider your marriage 'dead' you need to grieve for it and then move on.

Your H is your H. You need to remember that you only have control over you, not him. He has proven over and over that he makes his own decisions and rarely does he consider anyone else's feelings. Remember that - you on the other hand are not that selfish.

CHin up!!!

Denise

"Our lives begin to end when we become silent about things"

In order to comply with Forum Policy, this post was moved to the Open Board at http://www.network54.com/Forum/90639/thread/1201839154

Posts from wayward spouses are not allowed on either our "Healing" board or our "Deeper" board.

TomJ

This response was moved to the Open board on the above mentioned thread, since it was a reply to that post.