I’m having a great deal of trouble getting past my husband’s very disrespectful and public emotional affair, though it has been a year since I learned of it. Any thoughts on how to shake this would be most appreciated, as I am still experiencing stomach rolling sensations, and blood pressure peaks, with the thought of this. Attending church with my husband, and sitting next to him, makes me feel physically ill.

Counseling isn't helping. My husband has decided he’s done all that he can to remedy this, and that he has heard enough about my pain. He feels strongly that the affair should no longer be discussed. Our counselor told me after two sessions that if I focus on this affair, I was going to be “divorced”. It felt a bit like a lecture from the counselor, now that I think of it (it was his tone), but that was probably not his intention. It's not that I don't want to let it go, or that I want to punish anyone, I just can't turn off these hurt feelings, and these physical symptoms, a year after I learned of it.

To give you some background, my husband had a romantic, spiritual, and emotional affair with a well respected, divorced, and much younger woman, at church, for a period of years. We are of different faiths and could not agree on a church. Plus, we have a very challenging special needs son, and I was exhausted because I have no support system here, any my husband works long hours, and some weekends. So, I used Sunday mornings to catch up on sleep, instead of accompanying my husband to church. I had full trust in him, and the church, that our marriage would be honored and respected. However, much to my shock and disappointment, I learned he had a long term inappropriate relationship with a woman at church, and somehow they seemed to have been accepted as a couple. They sat together, shoulder to shoulder, each Sunday, in front of her children, her family, the church body, the minister, and the kids she taught at Sunday school. There was no reason to sit that close since the pews were practically empty. They sat together in this way, while the woman showered my husband with rock star like attention, and seductive words. Then my husband would return home to me, and our children, as if he were living two seperate lives. My husband did not remove himself from that situation quickly enough, because he was flattered by the attention.

When I learned of the relationship, I reached out to the minister because I thought he surely must not have known. The minister tells me my husband has “free will” and that my husband did not come to him for guidance. The minister and my husband were so friendly that they exchanged emails. So, why couldn't the minister have asked my husband once about the standing of his marriage? If something inappropriate is happening in full view of the church, wasn't it his responsibility to question or to offer spirtiual guidance? So, though the relationship was quite public, my husband was not questioned once about the inappropriateness of that relationship, though it was understood my husband was married. Somehow because he was praying with this woman, and the church, he cleansed what was happening, and convinced himself it wasn't wrong. ??? Even after my husband came to his senses and separated himself from the woman, and left the church, members encouraged his return. Though my husband left, the woman and church members maintained email correspondence with my husband, AT HIS JOB, keeping him up to date on any news that would tug at my husband’s heart, while they encouraged his attendance. The woman still continued to attempt to seduce my husband, years later, and church members tied them together in emotional group emails. The marriage bond was not only disrespected by my husband and this woman, the church was also indifferent to our 25 yrs. of marriage, and our family. I don't understand how this marriage was so disregarded and dismissed, and the church tolerated such disrespectful behavior towards the marriage. It’s hard to let this go when I think so many Christians were working against our marriage, when church should be the one place where the marriage bond is honored. I’m deeply troubled by this and can't stop replaying, over, and over again, why this hurts.

I am stuck! How can I turn the page on this?

Dear Angella, Welcome. I am so sorry that you are here, but hope that this site and our community can offer you the support that has been so absent in your life.

I am floored by the betrayal of not only your husband, but the minister, the congregants and the counselor. No wonder you play the situation over and over again; there is no logical sense to be made of it. It throws into question not only the person you knew to be your H - who you relied on and trusted to be a loving husband. It also throws into question everything you trusted in regarding your faith and the ethics and morals that are taught under that roof.

If circumstances permit, I'd recommend finding a different counselor...one who is well versed in infidelity recovery. Sadly, there are times it takes extended looking to find a counselor that is a good fit. Certainly one that advises after two visits that you shouldn't focus on the affair can't be very well versed in how to manage couples dealing with the trauma of infidelity. Even if your H won't go, you have definitely been traumatized and victimized by this situation and could probably benefit from individual counseling. As for the counselor's advice about not focussing on the affair, you may remain married, but what kind of marriage would that be where you are suffering from what your H did and are prevented from attending to your trauma?

Your husband does not sound particularly remorseful. Am I reading that wrong? At the point he is blanketly stating he is done dealing with the topic, that sounds so dismissive that it smacks of disrespect for you and what you may need to heal. What exactly has he done for you to help repair the damage other than quitting the church?

More than anything, I want to offer just the understanding that you are not crazy or unreasonable in what you are feeling. It takes around 2.5 years to heal from infidelity...and that hinges a great deal on having a truly remorseful spouse who is WILLING to work with and for you on recovery. If you had been in a major car accident, a doctor would not have said after two visits, you need to stop focussing on your injuries. Your husband would hopefully not say after a year that he was done helping out with your physical therapy and/or recovery. It boggles the mind what you are dealing with. Kudos to you for maintaining your sanity. Welcome and hugs to you. BlueIris

"We cannot wait for the storm to pass; we must learn to walk in the rain."

Angella:

It sounds as if you've not only been betrayed by your husband and this woman, but by the church community that is suppossed to be committed to higher standards.

Cowards come in all shapes and sizes, and unfortunately in your case they come wearing the collar of a minister. If this had occured in my current church, I can assure you that someone would have spoken to your husband at several different times. Christians who are serious about their faith, and who truly believe they are called to love encourage one another understand that this not only means times when it is easy, but at times when it is hard.

In addition, the counselor you saw is, in my opinion, a very misguided and ill informed counselor. Good counselors understand that the trauma of infidelity does not evaporate at will, and that it needs to be addressed in order to allow the couple to move forward and away from divorce. In addition, they understand that the best chance of success for the long term prospects of the marriage is when the wayward spouse comes forward in full confession, asks for an underserved forgiveness, and gives themselves to their spouse. Of course, this is tempered by the willingness of the betrayed spouse to offer and give forgiveness and work toward true reconcilation.

Many people encourage this 'bury it' approach to recovery, wrongly thinking that guilt is more harmful to the wayward spouse than conviction, and that the marriage is better served by the betrayed's double dose of humility rather than equal amounts and equal parts for both parties of the marriage.

If your husband is a Christian, I'd encourage him to read the account of David's affair with Bathsheba in 2 Samual 11-12. If your husband rationalizes that his infidelity was not physical, there are additional Bible passages that show that God is equally serious about infidelity that his not physical.

As for your situation, do you think this is something that you would be able to forgive? Are you 'hung up' because your pain in recovery is not being validated, or is it over the affair itself? I'm sure that both will bleed together, so it may be difficult to answer this question. The is a page you might want to read located under our "Helpful Links" area, called "Joeseph's Letter". I think you might find it helpful in understanding and explaining to your husband the source of your inability to 'move on' like he wants.

TomJ

I certainly didn't expect two swift responses to my SOS message, but I'm most appreciative. Thanks for the resources and good thoughts. I'll certainly look into it.

Thanks also for the much needed validation.I'm glad to read that someone doesn't think I'm crazy or unreasonable. I really don't have anyone to talk to about it. I did consider switching counselors and told ours that it wasn't helping me to seek individual counseling from him, and then marriage counseling for my husband and I. When I did this, our counselor (also a minister of the same denomination) told me he "would be honored if I continued" with the counseling sessions. I felt a definate tug, and I trusted he knew what he was doing, and that he could help. BUT, it's been a year, and I don't feel much better. I think he's definately onboard with not letting my husband feel any more guilt, and that we need to move on. It's been his strategy from the beginning. However, I should give the counselor some credit because he devoted one session with me, discussing how the minister of the church owes me an apology, and how inappropriate the other woman's tactics were. The other side of it is that is that he won't speak of this in front of my husband. I think little responsibility has been put on my husband's shoulders by the counselor. It seems my husband is not expected to offer me full disclosure, and yes "bury it" seems to be the way it is being handled. (It's not working for me!!) When I raise questions about gaps in stories that don't seem to fit, the counselor redirects me and says my husband has admitted to having an "emotional affair" and nudges me to move on. So, I'm left with this nagging questions, such as why the other woman felt comfortable enough to break through her moral boundaries, and suggest sex, when their relationship supposedly existed only within the church. It doesn't make sense to me, and since there has been some deception through ommission, I can't be so trusting and gullable anymore.

Howerver, I'm pretty sure the relationship has ended between my husband and the woman. I'm also pretty sure the church has stopped trying to entice my husband to return. It has been a year since the woman, and the church have broken all contact. (It was something I insited my husband do for the marriage, because he has proven to be vulnerable to this woman because of her leadership position at the church, and because she had been reaching out him as a self appointed emissary for this institiution. Despite what he has done, he's a nice guy with a big heart, and such a woman has been effective at manipulating him). My husband has broken ties, and has produced a love letter that she sent to him. He shared it with out counselor and sought guidance on how to terminate all contact with her. Couneslor's response - "keep it short". He also agreed to me reaching out to the minister of the church to discuss the matter. I suppose with this and an admission that he had an emotional affair, my husband doesn't want to discuss those troubling details that are eating away at me - such as how he could forget and seperate his marriage and family, from his relationship with the woman, when he was in such a spirtiual environment, etc.. He feels like I'm beating him over the head when I ask for these details, or when I just want to talk about it. I'm trying to understand what really happened at this church, and within him, because what he did really knocked the wind out me. I want some reassurance the dynamics aren't in place for this to happen again.

I feel like a pressure valve is being released when I have some validation of these hurt feelings. These experiences come up rarely.

I THINK this is forgivable, but I can't get past those physical symptoms. I'm also waking up about once a week from bad dreams about my husband betraying me, dreams about the church ignoring the marriage, or dreams about the woman strong arming my husband into an affair. I'm definately stuck in an unhealthy state of mind.

Angella:

The more you share, the more clear it becomes that your husband's church has some issues, especially if it is a Christian church. While grace and forgiveness are important parts of church life, so are confession, transparancy, and accountablity.

What good church allows it's leaders to commit grevious sins and still remain in important leadership roles. Certainly not one that follows the teachings regarding leaders outlined in the Bible.

Additionally, the Bible teaches that we must 'uncover our sin' in order for it to be forgiven. To me, this means that your husband is obligated to reveal what he has done, not only to God, but to you as well. My wife, working with a Christian counselor, prepared a full written confession of her affair. Then she read it to me, answered any additional questions that came to light, and ask for my forgiveness. Confession not only serves to benifit you, but it ultimately benefits your husband as well, because it lifts the burden of guilt and fear that what he has done is unforgiveable. As long as he refuses to share it, he is suggesting that he doesn't trust you to forgive him of what he has done.

Unfortunately, there is much resistance on the part of those who have done wrong, and those who are misguided to think they are helping by enabling the hiding of his misdeeds. Arm yourself with a good understanding of why you should be given the answers to your questions. Don't allow yourself to be swayed by their arguments. Accept nothing less than disclosure. You are right to want it.

TomJ

Angella,

Have you thought of seeing a different counselor, for both IC and MC. If you are not getting what you need from counseling, tehn I would suggest a change.

I find it so sad that a church congregation allowed and encouraged this type of behavior and that a minister would not step up and discuss this, out in the open sin, with one of his parishners.

My marriage is on very shaky ground, so I don't have much advice, but I can sympathize with you in your desire to know what was going on with your H that he could have carried on in such a manner.

Stay true to yourself, if you need to discuss issues and dig deeper, don't let your H or the counselor persuade you out of the discussions. You need to make both of them see what you need to get through this ordeal, it cannot jsut be swept under the carpet.

Have you read any books on affairs or affair recovery? Look under Helpful Links at the left to find some books.

Lisa

"Arm yourself with a good understanding of why you should be given the answers to your questions." - AGREED!

I'd appreciate any additional resources that may come to mind to help me with reasons. The marriage counselor/minister we had been seeing isn't helping me heal because he seems to believe a superficial exchange on the affair is sufficient, or middle ground. This approach hasn't helped to offer me much of a release, and therefore I've been asked to bottle this up. The counselor tells us we MUST go to church, and that it was important to us as a couple. I don't think he has fully processed how I feel, though I have told him in many ways. Just looking around and getting the spiritual message, and spotting the obvious couples seated throughout the church causes me to feel ill, because I have images of the woman and my husband locking shoulders, and exchanging romantic glances, while being accepted as a couple. Going to church reminds me that the marriage didn't exist in the eyes of large group of people, who supported the improper relationshipo, and that somehow the marriage was spiritually erased. The last time I attempted to accompany my husband to church, my stomach was rolling and my heart felt like it was racing. I'm sure my blood pressure was sky high. I bolted out of the car, and walked about 2 miles to access public transportation to come back home, just to stay clear of my husband. Obviously, I need to meet with a new counselor because I have some things to work out of me! When I finally saw my husband, many hours later, he didn't want to talk about it.

I don't think there is a problem with the particular denominication with the church in question. I have done a little research and have found there is an established protocol for church discipline. However, this is not going to be enacted in this matter. The woman's transgressions aren't going to be addrssed though I have offerend the church proof that she needs spiritual guidance, she's a threat to the marriage, and that she has used the church as a tool to attempt to divide the marriage. The woman has lost her moral center, in this matter, but teaches moral values to children at Sunday School. One of the ministers I spoke with felt it would do more harm than good to confront the woman. In summary, the message I'm getting from the church is: they appear to want to protect her from any emotional discomfort since she's an emotional single mom of 3 kids. The minister wants me to forgive, and forget, without divulging what really happened or what the minsiter observed or knew. There has been no reassurance from the church that the woman has been redirected and that our marriage is now safe from her. They haven't assured me that they are now sensitive to the fact there is a marriage bond in place, and that it will now be respected and honored. Yes, the church in question is a Christian church. It seems to me there has been some dereliction of duty with the current leadership at the church, for reasons unknown to me. Bascially, I feel like they've closed their doors.

(My husband is a devoted Christian, so it seems mind boggling to me that this happened at a church, and that he could be and was corrputed there. Perhaps this place punished me for my choice not to attend. ?? )

I've shared so many bible passages with my husband. He's been quite resistant, though I think he gets it. I gather he FEELS GUILT, but doesn't want to think or speak of it. If I were to guess I would say that he feels small, or that he doesn't want to think he did anything wrong, because he thinks of himself as a good person. My husband feels he's been honest and told me everything, but I feel I've been given a superficial overview, and that I'm on a need to know basis. Strangely, when I tried to get more details during counseling sessions, and explain it by saying I need reassurance because my trust is broken, the counselor strongly states that he trust and believes in my husband. ??

My husband and I are of different Christian faiths that refer to the same bible. So, at first, I couldn’t comprehend why I felt this betrayal could have taken place in full view of a church for so many years. It seemed SO fundamentally wrong to me, but yet, the church tolerated this improper relationship between a married man and a divorced woman. By the way, the woman thought the marriage shouldn't be. I have this insecure thought that the church felt similarly. Over the past year, I've been pouring through the Bible just to convince myself that I'm not crazy to think this was wrong.
Hebrews 13:4 4
Job 31:9-12
Matt 5:27-28
Malachi: 2: 14
Galatians 6:1-2 - very important because it pertains to the church’s failure to address this

As I read your post I get so very angry. You were totally violated. Your feelings are the same as any one who has been betrayed and they are normal feelings.

As for your " counselor" there are many who claim that title, and not enough good ones. As for counselors who can help with affair recovery the number shrinks even further.

You ask for resources. Start with dearpeggy.com read every word. Peggy Vaughn and her husband are counselors. He betrayed her many many years ago, I think they are now celebrating their 5oth wedding anniversary. She wrote the Monogamy Myth a must read.

She has tons of information that will help you to heal. Her writings have helped many of us.

Also, when you feel capable check out Open. It is a source for both the betrayed and the former betrayer to write and share. Those of us who have been here many years usually just hang out there.

This board is rarely viewed. You will get many many more responses there from all of us.

As for healing, it is 2.5 years that healing first starts. The first year is only about survival. You have survived the worst.

There are many many healing suggestions we have shared here. The most important is to know you are not alone, and not crazy. We totally understand your pain and will hold your hand as you heal.

This is a wonderful place full of loving friends. Also go into chat where you can talk to others who only want to help. We are open 24/7 though sometimes you may have to wait a bit.

You WILL heal. Your husband has a lot a LOT to learn. You have had a traumatic experience, and your counselor is not helping. Talking is the best way to heal from trauma.

http://www.shirleyglass.com/psychologytoday.htm

This was another incredible article that helped me so much, as did her book.
Many of these books are available free at your library. Also please check out our helpful links. There is so much to learn and all of it will help you to heal. A counselor who understands these important issues would also be a major help. Sweeping trauma under the rug does not heal.
We care about you Angela. Please eat right, exercise, and talk as much as you need to. My first year I was on this board constantly. It is now 8 years, my marraige is healed, thanks to the help of a great counselor and my wonderful friends here. I only write now because I want to return the loving hand that was reached out to me many years ago.

EL

Thanks so much for the great resources and supportive words. The Shirley Glass link is of particular interest. This is SO true. "Affairs really aren’t about sex; they’re about betrayal." I think S.Glass nailed the issue. In my personal matter, I think I got a double dose of betrayal.

I had already decided to switch counselors for IC, but after reading this feedback, I'm going to push myself to make the call this week. The feelings I have described above are my worst moments, and fortunately I'm spending less time thinking about it, as more time passes. However, there are these moments where I'm stuck. So, I know there is some unfinished business I need to work out with me, and I also need to sort this out with my H.

Thanks SO MUCH for the feedback on the "bury it" therapy. I'm more convinced this isn't going to help me, or us as a couple. So, I'm hoping to persuade my H to make the counselor change too. If I can't, I'll just go solo and see where it goes.

Right now, my H believes he's being a good follower, and trusting our counselor's lead. Plus, my H is looking for any reassurance that he didn't do anything that was that bad, because he didn't take the woman up on her offers to have sex, though he was tempted and he made this quite public, FOR YEARS. I think our elder male counselor is on board with this thinking my husband dogged a bullet, instead of breaching his marriage vows. From what I understand, the couselor thinks my husband deserves a lot of praise for his restraint. I believe the push is for me to drop, and get over it, because there wasn't sex. Sweeping my hurt feelings, and this matter under the carpet makes it so much more digestable for my H, so why wouldn't he want to follow that lead. Also, I think my H doesn't want to think the church failed in their duties to uphold certain values, with regard to our marriage. So, he doesn't want to talk about this because like many people, he too wants to trust in the church. (Let me emphasize again that I think this was just a breakdown of the leadership of this one particular church, and not the denominiation, or all churches in general. There was a woman showering my husband with attention, offering him sex, and my husband was weak and didn't remove himself from that situation quickly enough. Since these guys were off course, this should have been addressed by those that sat in observance. I think this is probably a rare occurrance, but somehow the leadership at this place did fail to stop something that has been undoubtedly quite hurtful, and DISRESPECTFUL, to me.)

Thanks for letting me to put this down in print. You probably already know that doing so serves as a bit of a release.

After feeling invisible for the past year, it's great to to some people understand. It's a very good feeling.

Thanks to all who get it, and who understand.

Hi Angela - Your situation is really intolerable! I can't comprehend at all the response of that church - it's very sick. Part of the dilemma you are in may be that everyone in this situation is colluding with each other - your counsellor, your husband, the OW, the previous church etc. Is there anyone in this story who is really "on your side" - hearing your pain?

The dreams, the pain in your chest etc. all of that is your inner self telling you that you do not have enough of the information you need to start healing - you can't shake it because you don't have it yet. I found that questions that mattered to me kept coming back, they just did not go away until they were asked.

People on this site often talk about Retrouvaille - a marriage retreat. I do not know about it personally and I do not know whether it would be a springboard to help your H open up. Your H seems stuck - talking is hard to do and all kinds of people seem to be helping him to excuses and keep him stuck - I wonder if Retrouvaille would help him to get past his reluctance - perhaps others will comment.

You are right to feel as you do. I would not know how to contain my anger if I had been in your shoes.

MM

The OW also attended church, as did her best friend, who set up the affair ! Both of them had cell phone messages that ended with "Have a blessed day !" Their hypocrisy and smug Christianity are beyond sickening. I wanted to go to every church in her town and tell the minister in case it was HER minister, but, as in your case, it might not have done any good. Winning another soul over, even an unclean one, must be more important than caring about the destruction of another one.

Hi MM,

I don't think there is anyone that really understands my pain. My H, and the counselor only get it on a very superficial level. MAYBE it is because they're both men. They think there was no sex, so I should move on, and pat my H on the back for not falling. ? Of course, I think my husband did show a degree of restraint, but at the same time, he was quite disrespectful and hurtful to me, because he exposed his unfaithfulness to a group of people who understand the significance of the marriage bond. It wasn’t like he did this once. I continued for many years.

The old minister, and the OW also feel similarily, in that I should forget about it. When the minister didn't return my phone call, I reached out to him again, and found him indifferent to the story. I felt discouraged by his lack on empathy. So, I thought perhaps he didn’t believe me, because my husband is such a good guy, and the OW is a elder in the church. So, I shared the OW's love note with him to let him know just how inappropriate it was. After reading the note, he said we were "two women behaving graciously under difficult circumstances". ?? Maybe it was his attempt at keeping peace, but I interpreted this as indifference.

In this love note, the OW refers to my H as "my love", "honey", and said she was "totally overwhelmed by the thought of him BEFORE she got out of bed", and that she is sorry it didn't go further because "it would have been good". She identifies their relationship as an “improper friendship”. The OW moves on to say that they did nothing wrong, and that she wished they had sex, so my hurt feelings would be justified. The letter mocks me, and made me look like an emotionally ungrounded because I have no right to be hurt. She ended by asking "HOW" the marriage could be, that it shouldn't be together, BUT their relationship (my H and the OW) could be good. She shares some emotional difficulties, such as her mother being ill, and her x-H isn't around to help out with the kids- a cry for help. She finishes off the note by saying she wanted to speak to my H ABOUT ME, so she left her new home and cell #'s and her hours of availability. I suppose she thought that wasn't enough, so she said if my H didn't call her, she would call him. Under the guidance of our counselor, my H told her not to call or email him. I don’t understand why this note didn’t cause the minister to rethink his detached posture on this matter.

I suspect there was some collusion in the past, to draw my H back there. I’m not convinced there is anything going on with the minister and our counselor, even though they are ministers of the same denomination. I have been told the counselor is not supposed to talk about what is discussed in his office. On a human level, I would think it would be hard to do. I don't know if there is collusion now, but I often wonder if there was some understanding that they would disconnect the church and the affair, from the therapy, so the church’s integrity would be protected. Perhaps that is just a far fetched thought.

The responses from the church are really strange to me. Obviously, something against core values , in the public eye, should have been addressed. Maybe TomJ was right. Perhaps the minister was just a coward. The indifference to the betrayal and the lack of respect to the marriage, and the trickle down effect to the teens that were in our house, is mind boggling to me. I can only think they are protecting this woman because she has a hard life being a single mom of three kids. Still, I don't think her hardships justify tolerance for what happened there, or her inappropriate attraction to my husband. It doesn't take much to tell me that they're sorry this happened, it was wrong, and that they're working with the woman to help her to think straight and to follow their values. . Instead, I seem to get the message - let's not talk about the past and move on. ???

I WAS very angry with the OW for a while, but a year has past, and I think this is mostly about being hurt, and shocked, and trying to release these bottled up hurt feelings.

Hello Angella,

They probably weren't colluding in the sense that they actively and deliberately acted together to promote this improper relationship, as much as that taken together their varied actions have this cumulative effect - with the exception of the OW. From what you have said she was really in some denial about her actions and her motives. She certainly seems to have been very interested in an affair. Your H seems to have done everything but have a sexual relationship with her. It really does seem strange to me that your C and your H see that as something heroic - would they have seen it that way had it been the other way around? They would surely have not been so quick to dismiss and move on! MM

MM,

I agree with everything that you have said. I'll add by saying that the OW was so intersted in taking it further that she was actually telling my H in the church sanctuary, that she was "atracted" to him, while she would have very provactive conversations about herself and undergarmets. Bizzare! Shouldn't alarm bells have gone of in their heads? After all, think of the setting. There must have been reminders all about, but they somehow cleansed the reality of it. My husband did remind her that he was married, but yet he didn't run for the hills.

The theology of this church is to be committed to the infallability of the bible, but yet this behavior that was against the teachings in the bible was taking place for all to see. It's a slap in the face to me because these people allowed it to occur, seemingly without any regrets, and also because my H made the choice to sit and enjoy the ride for a period of years.

I've tried the role reversal with my H and how he would have felt if he were in my shoes. He believes because there wasn't sex, he would have easily forgotten the matter. My H is missing the point about this being a betrayal, a breech of a marriage vow in the one settomg our marriage should have been safe.

It is hard to break this down in simpler terms for him to get the depth of the matter.

I try to beware of my own personal spiritual beliefs allowing me to be fooled into thinking they protect me - Being in a church is a place to still be aware of temptation

may you be safe and well, contented and happy

Angella,

At this point trying role reversal with your H will NOT work because he is still so far in the fog that he will justify and rationalize anything to minimize his bad behavior. I would be shocked if he had said he would be hurt if you had an A.

I am also not terribly surprised by the reactions of those at that church because people whose lives have not been touched by A truly do not understand. They THINK they know about A and what they would do, but the truth is that none of us really knows until we have been in the situation.

Think about it: Haven't you heard people's cruel and glib comments that if a man cheats it's because there is something wrong with his marriage and that his wife must not be "putting out" for him. How cruel, thoughtless, and just plain ridiculous those comments are, and yet, people make them and, even worse, believe them to be true.

Forget getting any kind of understanding or support from that group. It is obvious that they do not understand EA, and they don't seem willing to learn.

My suggestion is that you read all you can on A, and if your H is serious about trying to stay married to you, he do the same. The fog must lift from his eyes and heart before he will see how devastating his behavior was to you, your marriage, and to him.

Gentle fairy hugs,

fairyfriend

I'd agree with FF's comments. You've been betrayed by the church, no doubt about that. You've confronted them and they've shown no remorse. You know what to do with that... leave them behind and wipe the dust of their floors from your feet.

The real issue for you and your husband is his lack of conviction for what HE has done. He seems like a fairly sensitve man, so I think eventually he'll come around, but he needs to have this explained to him. He needs to examine a few situations for himself objectively. He needs to see your raw hurt, your core reaction. You've got to get down to the basics, the first principles of this.

Betrayal, at it's core has nothing to do with sexual intercourse. Betrayal is about the heart and how a person protects the exclusivity of his or her heart in marriage. If your husband does not understand that, do your best to explain that.

You both want your marriage to survive, but as long as he refuses to see his actions for what they are, as long as he continues to hide them from himself and from you, as long as he manipulates their meaning, then there will be division between you and him. Once he is able to take responsibility for what he did, apologize for his careless treatment of your marriage, and ask for your forgiveness, then you will be able to forgive him fully and give this situation is proper place in the history of your relationship.

TomJ

Wow! TomJ and Fairyfriend, you REALLY get it. It really feels wonderful that you, and others truly understand how I feel. I suppose that is because many of you have been through this, and have talked this out. I hope you're all on the rebound.

I have given up on reaching an understanding from the spritiual social group. If they'd only open up their bibles they'd find that an EA is a betrayal to a marriage, and that my H was unfaithful. (Matt 5:27-28 27 “You have heard the commandment that says, ‘You must not commit adultery.’[a] 28 But I say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart.)

If a married man and divorced woman have their shoulders locked in church, for years, you would think it would have been called to question. I think the church's lack of action, and their responses suggests this is a situation where there is willful blindness. I've given up on trying to reach them, but it still stings, and attending church is like ripping open a wound. I guess it just takes time.

My H appears to have some type of an emotional bond with this spritial social group that he still covets. In light of the offense to the marriage, and me, it makes me feel insecure that he still thinks fondly of them. He refuses to think any negative thought about their failure to stop what was happening in their view. He doesn't want to think of the OW friend as additional enticement though she knew exactly why he got himself out of the church. Why lay the OW out on a silver platter, and tie them together in emails? We have boxes and boxes of photos of the people from the church in our bedroom closet. These photos haunt me because there are more photos of the church, than of our family, during those 5-6 years he was there.

Plus, the OH made it known to my H that she would be willing to have an affair with him on any terms, and she'd be willing to wait. Her love letter that came some time after he stopped seeing her was more than distrubing, it was just confirmation her offer is without an expiration date. She's about 10 years younger than my H, and treats him like a rock star. She's tempation with a a capital T. It has been a while since she and her friend have tried to reach my H, but I have no reassurance that she won't try again, or that my husband won't be on guard from her advances, because he has proven to be vulnerable.

I don't know how to break this down in simpler terms for my H, that I need reassurance, understanding, and emotional feedback. I've shared articles on the topic of EA and recovery from an A with him. I think he processes it, but then he slips back into thinking he really didn't do anything wrong. Just this past week, my H told me that he was "doing the best" he could, when he was having the A. He says I left him no choice. Ugh!

I've armed myself with books and articles on EA, and healing, but so far, it's not helped. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

>I don't know how to break this down in simpler terms for my H, that I need reassurance, understanding, and emotional feedback.

I think it comes down to showing him your heart, if you've not already done that, or more of it if you have. He's rationalizing to protect himself, to protect ideas and images of things. He's trying to avoid breaking his world apart.

In the church we talk about being broken because when a person is broken (i.e. all the pride and other props to "self" are removed), then they are read to grow.

I think of your situtaion with the church and his desire to return to that group of 'friends'. I don't think your reation is any different than it would be toward any group seemed to encourage an affair. I'd agree that the fact that they are a church makes that betrayed seem worse, but fundementally I'd have a problem with my spouse being involved with any group that I saw as promoting her affair, work, church, or otherwise.

As long as you husband doesn't see what he's done as adultery, it's not likely he'll see the church as supporting his adultery. The core problem is that he doesn't see his own sin. When you read the story of King David's affair with Bathsheba, you see that he didn't see his wrong until Nathan spoke to him. Before that it he rationalized and compartmentalized. Your husband seems a bit like that, where he doesn't really understand the wrong of what has occured. Once he doesn't everything will change, and you'll know it almost immediately.

I know that "Focus On The Family" has some resources directed toward infidelity. They are more on the prevention side, but I found them helpful. For what it's worth, despite the intercourse that occured, my wife rationalized her affair as "not her fault" because the OM "wouldn't leave her alone". She told me that she only thought of him as a friend, not romantically. She thought her error was "being too nice". Because of the physical contact, there were certain things my wife couldn't deny, but she did try to deny any feelings for the OM and any desire for the affair. It took several years of turmoil for us to cross over that barrier and for her to finally take responsibility for the fact that SHE removed her cloths or allowed them to be removed and SHE cooperated with the OM to have sex with him, and that SHE did things in the affair to promote, encourage, and maintain it. In other words, she was as big a contributor to it as the OM.

I hope that your husband is not as stubborn as my wife was in comming to the place where he can see what HE did.

TomJ

Tom J...I'm glad you and your wife did got past the obstacle that prevented true healing. It's encouraging to hear that a stubborn offending spouse can come around.

This forum has been very helpful to me to help me pull my thoughts together. I felt encouraged to have a chat with my H. I told him that I knew he didn't want to think badly of the C (church). I told him it was time for him to begin to compartmentalize his feelings for the church into two seperate boxes. Of course, there are caring people at the C, that do good work, and good things. In the other box, they are also a group that has proven to be toxic to our marriage. Even when given the opportunity to clean up the mess they helped along, their intent was to deny and conceal, so I felt it was unhealthy for our relationship to continue any association with them. I told him that it was utlimately the responsibility of the minister, who has had all the religious education and training, to offer guide. That's his job. However, he and the OW were given moral autonomy. There was a battle between good and evil and this show was going on right before all eyes. Were they going to intervene after they had sex? Or had they endorsed the relationship and they didn't care if they did or not?
I went on to say, while people can not be controlled, the minister, or the other leaders of the church can certainly control what takes place during church services. It said it was their obligation to stop it, since my H and the other woman were behaving inappropriately. But the leadership there, chose not to address it, and their silence translated into a quiet endorsement. My H knows I confronted the minister, and eventually gave him the letter from the OW. Yet, the minister chose not to clean up, or to offer spirtual guidance to anyone. At the very least, IF IT WAS AN OVERSEIGHT, he should have expressed regret,or disappointment, but he did not. I told my H that this felt like a slap in my face, when the minister said the OW and I were "two women behaving graciously" under difficult circumstances, after reading her letter. Good news!!! I saw my H nodding his head in agreement, and then he said there was nothing gracious about the OW's letter. He saw it as an attack on me and an invation to him. He said the letter made it clear what the realtionship was, so the minister's response makes no sense to him. He SAYS he has no desire to see the OW or to go back to this place. THIS IS BIG because my H didn't even want to talk about this before. Of course, it is hard for me to trust fully in his words since my H was dishonest about the EA. However, I think this is just a small piece of progress. I also added that I hope he (my H) sees that the letter was more than an attack on me, it was an attack on our marriage and our family. I got a nod of agreement on this too. I don't think this is over yet, but it seems there has been some progress because my H may actually be together on this.

Then I tried to move onto my H's responsilbity, his choices, and how he was being irresponsible, but it seems I'll have to work more on this. My H got defensive, and asked to take a break, which translates into retreat. His eyes glazed over and he started to fall asleep in the chair while I was speaking. I see I still have some work to do to reach him. Does anyone have some input on how to get him to listen without being defenisve?

I also tried to talk about the counseling and how it isn't working with this fellow, but my H didn't really want to talk about it either. He was finished talking.

As for me replaying those feelings over, and over..... I think my H is beginning to understand it, which helps to release some of these bottled up hurt feelings. I know this will take time.

Maybe I expected too much to get it through this in one conversation. I've waiting a long time for him to come around. & YES, he is stubborn. So, I'm going to have to work harder at breaking it down to him. I guess it's hard to hear you did wrong.

Hi Angella - I have found that it really helps when I start the conversation about anything to do with the A slowly and gently to avoid setting my H up to be defensive - so it works better if I say, I need to talk with you about ... I can't get this ... out of my head, .. I am feeling unsure about how to handle ... The other thing is I watch my body language - I don't make a lot of direct eye contact or sit directly in front of him if I am talking or asking about A. Eye contact and face-to-face is confrontational. It makes a difference. It may help to look at Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass - she talks about how to protect your relationship. Your H may have some sense of where you are coming from if he reads it. If he is unlikely to read a whole book - have a look and see if there is one chapter that would matter most to you or speaks most to you and ask him if he would read that. I found a book by John Gottman on 7principles for making marriages work really helpful in helping me to see how to bring up difficult topics differently. My H has commented several times about finding these kinds of conversations easier and that he felt less defensive. I actually did as well. It made it easier to talk about it again at a later time. MM