My WH has a lot of issues, and has made a lot of mistakes. Who hasn't made mistakes, right? I understand that all of the crap we go through and all of the mistakes we make help us grow and become better people. That is if we learn from our mistakes. But what really burns my butt is that after hurting the BS so badly, and adding insult to injury, they become better people for the next relationship or for the current AP. This feels like such a slap in the face. Why couldn't they do the same for the BS? Why can't they become better people and be remorseful for what they did and work on the marriage? I know...cause it is far easier to start over fresh with someone else than it is to fix your mistakes and work on the marriage. I get that...but it still hurts.
My WH claims that he doesnt want to have any more affairs...that he doesnt want to cheat on anyone. He thinks because he is not having sex with me that he isnt cheating on his OW. What kind of f-ing logic is that? Of course you're cheating dumba$$, you're still married and we didn't agree to see other people. Yes, we are separated but it was supposed to be to work out our issues, not so he could have free reign to have another affair! They have been screwing for about 6 months now and he thinks he's in-love and doesn't want to hurt OW and cheat on her with me...so who am I...just his wife! So why does she deserve better than me? Why does he feel the need to be faithful to her and a better person for her and not me? This just pisses me off beyond belief! Not to mention the "ouch" factor!
Oh, and suddenly he cares about his kids. When he lived with us they didnt matter, but now he calls them every night to say good-night. Now he plans to do things with them. They used to be such a burden to him. So why does he care now? Dont get me wrong, I am happy for my children...but where was he lets say 10 years ago? Our children are 18, 13, and 8! It's too late for the oldest one...our 13 year old cuts herslef...and our 8 yo is withdrawn. It's too little too late! I know...at least he is trying, but then I think what if he goes back to not being there? Then what? The kids have suffered enough and so have I.
I am so angry...so hurt. Why doesnt he care about me? I know it's him and not me...I get that...but it still hurts. I never wanted it to be this way. All I ever wanted was my marriage & my family. It takes two and he just isnt willing. I know that...I get it...but again, it doesnt stop the pain. I know...time...it takes time. But in the meantime how do you deal with it? How do you take the edge off the pain until it subsides? I have been taking care of myself and I am stronger. I know it's over and I have done a lot of letting go...but I am only human. I just look at the bumpy road ahead and think "how did my life turn out like this"?
Thanks for letting me vent!
~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha
First of all, let me acknowledge that you're justified in your anger. A person of true integrity would stick around and to do the best job possible to clean up their mess.
Isn't that one of the basic teachings we want to pass on to our kids, to clean up the messes that the make? Not only the messes they make with paper, glue and scissors, but also the messes they make with brothers and sisters. It sounds like your husband doesn't remember those lessons. He's bought into the failed idea that you can make a mess, "learn from it", then move on to live a "cleaner" life. I highly doubt that he can do it, because he really hasn't learned much compared to what would come from working to clean up the mess he's made.
Does he really think that the hurt he's brought to his children can be erased with few weekend trips to amusement parks and other fun places? What has he really learned? Where's the real depth of relationship that brings security to kids? Where's the commitment to family that shows them they are his top priority next to their mother? That's what kids really want and long for.
The new relationship only further deepens their distrust of him for their ultimate security. It only cements their cynicism against true love and caring. Unfortunately what they know as a father's love is not really love.
I don't think you can be very sure that what he's doing is being done for their benefit anyway. I know a couple who just went through divorce, with two kids. The husband, like yours, ran his own business and spent many extra hours working instead of being with his family. After the divorce proceedings started, he became much more available as a father than ever before. He took them to college basketball games, to amusement parks, to special outings, while also dealing with his wife in a very hostile manner. Consequently, his kids have grown further and further detached from him. They see him for what he is... a lost person who uses people to make himself feel better. It's possible that your husband is doing something similar, something to allay his feelings of guilt, failure, and regret. However, if that's all it is then if those feelings fade over time, then so will his presence in their lives. Most people can put on a good show for a short time, but it takes a sincere person to be consistent over the long haul.
Don't worry about the apparent injustice. That will take care of itself in time.
<<They see him for what he is... a lost person who uses people to make himself feel better. It's possible that your husband is doing something similar, something to allay his feelings of guilt, failure, and regret. However, if that's all it is then if those feelings fade over time, then so will his presence in their lives. Most people can put on a good show for a short time, but it takes a sincere person to be consistent over the long haul.>>
Thank you for your kind words. And I believe that you are right. My IC has told me that my WH is capable of change but only for brief periods of time. Brief periods of change do not constitute REAL, permanent change on a deep level. Just like he was able to quit pot for a few months when it was to his benefit and to hold onto me and the kids, knowing all along that he was not going to abstain for good....for the long haul as you say. He thought eventually I would just accept it. When he realised I wasn't, that I was sticking to my boundaries, he found someone else who would put up with it. What will happen when he is tired of partying and going out...when he gets older and just cant do it anymore? Or what happens when OW starts to complain and make demands, or when she realises he has a REAL problem? He will find himself all alone again. Or maybe they will live happily in denial...who knows...but it is not my problem anymore.
I also believe that it is his guilt that is the driving force behind his recent outtings with the kids. I fear it will not last and the kids will be hurt. But I am not here to save him anymore...I am not here to enable or to ease his guilt. What happens between him and his children will be his own doing and he will suffer the consequences. I wish it did not have to be at the expense of the children....but I have no control over that do I? <sigh>
~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha
This message has been edited by SoCalGal on Jul 10, 2008 11:55 AM
Cal, sweetie, your H hasn't changed a bit. My guess is that there is a possibility that your H is being more attentive to your kids because he thinks doing so makes him look like a great dad in the OW's eyes. She is easily deceived--obviously!!!
Your H is running away from responsibility as fast as he can run. Don't be fooled by what you THINK you see. Give your H enough time and he will reveal his true self once more.
In the meantime, take care of you and your kids. If you haven't been to a lawyer yet, do so yesterday! If you don't have in writing what H told you he would give over to you, do so yesterday.
Protect yourself and your kids. Love yourself and your kids. Ignore what your H says because most of what comes spewing out of his mouth are lies.
Wow, Cal. That WAS a vent! Good for you! I hope releasing (some of) the tension and anger helps you to refocus.
My responses to your inquiries that you haven't already answered yourself:
Who hasn't made mistakes, right?
You're right. We ALL have. But it's only the mistakes that we face up to from which we learn.
Why couldn't they do the same for the BS?
They are not doing "anything" for anyone except themselves. His being kind or perceived thoughtfulness is because he is looking for something in return. OW is giving him something he wants. You do not have the same fantasy offerings; you offer real life.
Why can't they become better people and be remorseful for what they did and work on the marriage?
Do you think your H is truly working on his issues or in any way is feeling remorse? He is NOT working on bettering himself right now. He's still too lost. Reality will eventually catch up with him.
So why does she deserve better than me? Why does he feel the need to be faithful to her and a better person for her and not me?
Clearly she deserves what she gets. I don't think this is a win-win for her. By "better" do you mean your H? Right now?
I remember when my H was wayward...and protective of OW. It sickens him now how he sided with her - felt the need to protect her - but that's NOW. THEN everything was very different. Again, your H is not dealing in the real world yet. Maybe he never will be. Would that be the kind of person that would be best for you? Would that be YOUR deserving "better?"
But in the meantime how do you deal with it? How do you take the edge off the pain until it subsides?
Although you know the answer to this is TIME, I really believe in what Dear Peggy wrote this week. So much of the emotional edge on the part of the BS softens as we learn to reason out the A. It's not being done to YOU. YOU have zero control over his choices. He has major issues, none of which you can help, but which can destroy the life you once had.
What can you do? I think the first thing to do is to try and stop obsessing about WS or OW. Constant stressful thoughts prevent you from moving forward.
And secondly, is to get YOUR act together. That might include Divorce papers, and personal counseling. Going out with friends. Getting a new direction, whether that be a part-time job, learning a new hobby or skill, or maybe joining some group like a book club. Basically, KEEP ACTIVE. That's the best way for TIME to work its magic.
((((Cal)))) You can do this, Girlfriend. Think about YOURSELF now. You are your FIRST PRIORITY.
Peace is not just the absence of war; it's an exercise in compassion. -Dalai Lama
Coming to you from JJ
As you know, the pot is a means to avoid real intimacy. Maybe the OW is happy avoiding her own demons. I wonder if she will ever tire of a relationship who's idea of intimacy is rolling a joint then rolling in the hay. If that's all the deeper it ever gets, she just might.
As JJ asks... what kind of prize is that? Who's really winning?
My situation is a bit different - in regards to SoCoGal's about WH becoming a better person for the next relationship or for the current AP.
With me, it was that my WH would perform sexually in ways that I wanted but would not do for me, instead he saved that for the OW. 17 months into this and i still have no idea why?
He can't say he wanted this kind of sex from me and didn't get it, thus he had to look elsewhere. I would beg him for it and he wouldn't provide. And then when he confesses the affairs, he confesses that they are having the kind of sex i wanted. How much does he hate me?
Let's all pray today for all of those who will, for the first time, learn that their spouce has cheated on them.
And let's agree in prayer that for those who are tempted to cheat - don't.
If all of us agree in prayer, think of how many will be spared this horrid, horrid, devastation.
>> But what really burns my butt is that after hurting the BS so badly, and adding insult to injury, they become better people for the next relationship or for the current AP. This feels like such a slap in the face. Why couldn't they do the same for the BS?
I remember thinking how unfair it was that the new woman in my husband's life might get a much better version of him than I had. I felt so resentful when he said that she was a better match for him than I was. After 27 years of marriage and three children, this woman he had known less than a year was more suited for him? It's been more than a year and a half since that conversation but I still feel like I'm going to throw up when I think about it.
I know you're hurting, Cal. You have rightfully rebelled against your husband's disrespectful and cruel treatment of you in spite of the pain you knew it would bring, and in the process, you have grown and you have taught your children very valuable lessons about self-respect, and strength, and determination. That is something to be proud of. This kind of ordeal is not one anybody would ever wish for as an avenue for growth, but sometimes the only choices we have are how we react to the bad experiences and what lessons we take from them. The lessons you have taken, and the lessons your children have learned from watching you, will serve you all well. That may be little comfort to you when you hurt so much, but one day, when your children tell you how much they admire the way you handled yourself through all this, you will be comforted. And you will know that you have given them something valuable in your example.
>>My WH claims that he doesn't want to have any more affairs...that he doesnt want to cheat on anyone. He thinks because he is not having sex with me that he isnt cheating on his OW. What kind of f-ing logic is that? Of course you're cheating dumba$$, you're still married and we didn't agree to see other people.
When he says he isn't cheating, he is referring to his relationship with the OW, not to his relationship with you. In his mind, the marriage is over. Because your husband told you about the OW and his feelings for her, and because he told you he wants a divorce, and because he isn't having sex with you, he believes he is in a committed, exclusive relationship with OW. He doesn't see it as cheating because he believes he's being up front with everyone. You see it as cheating because the two of you are still legally married and you would like to reconcile. But you've been separated for 6 months and he has told you he's "in love" with someone else. Whether you agreed to see other people or not, he is more than seeing someone - he's decided that she's the one he wants to be with. Once one partner makes that decision, the marriage is over in all but the legal sense. And the legalities can take months, if not years to sort out. He's not going to wait that long to move on (obviously), and I hope you won't either, Cal.
>>Yes, we are separated but it was supposed to be to work out our issues, not so he could have free reign to have another affair!
Was that really the agreement between the two of you, or was that what you hoped for? Did he say he wanted to work on the marriage while you were apart, and if he did, what did he do that would have led you to believe he was sincere about that? I don't think any of us who have been reading your posts saw any indication that he was a man who wanted to fix his marriage. And I don't think you believed he was committed to working things out either.
>>They have been screwing for about 6 months now and he thinks he's in-love and doesn't want to hurt OW and cheat on her with me...so who am I...just his wife! So why does she deserve better than me? Why does he feel the need to be faithful to her and a better person for her and not me? This just pisses me off beyond belief! Not to mention the "ouch" factor!
She doesn't deserve better than you – she's just the person he is committed to at this time. And for whatever reason, he has decided he wants to be faithful to her, at least for the time being; that could (and probably will) change when things become more predictable and routine between them. I understand why you feel so angry. You have every right to be pissed and hurt and all the other emotions I'm sure you feel right now. This is horrible and traumatic and painful beyond description. But don't believe she's the woman to turn him around and make him a better man. Their relationship will probably come to the same end as the others once she starts to have expectations of him.
>>Oh, and suddenly he cares about his kids.
I'm sure he doesn’t want to come off looking like the bad guy to them – that's probably what his sudden interest is all about. He doesn’t want you to influence them too much, now that he's decided he wants out of the marriage. He wants to maintain whatever relationship he thinks he has with them. The other motivation may be that he believes it makes him look good to the OW.
>>I am so angry...so hurt. Why doesnt he care about me? I know it's him and not me...I get that...but it still hurts.
Of course it hurts. Anyone who tells you that you haven't really lost anything because he was a lying, cheating, pot addicted narcissist, really doesn't understand the strength of the bond between a man and woman who have been married for over 20 years and have children together. The man you married may not have deserved your love but you loved him, nevertheless. Your entire adult life is tied to him, and like me, you probably don't have too many memories that your husband isn't a part of. You have lost all the hopes and dreams you shared with him for the future. That's no small thing. It's truly devastating. You wonder how you will ever stop feeling married to this person and you doubt the grief will ever end. Even the good days are suffused with a sense of loss - a sense that this isn't the way it was supposed to be. I'm told it gets better and I'm trusting in that. In the meantime, I take whatever small victories I can get - like stumbling across an old pair of his shoes in the dark recesses of the closet and not crumbling to the floor in a heap of despair. That's a good day for me. It tells me I'm making progress. You are too, Cal, even when it doesn't feel like it. We have all witnessed it. Just stay strong and have faith in your ability to get through this.
>> But in the meantime how do you deal with it? How do you take the edge off the pain until it subsides?
I think you just have to find things to occupy your time and mind. Staying busy helps more than anything. A new relationship helped me a great deal, but I know many people here counsel against that. We all have to find what works for us.
>> I just look at the bumpy road ahead and think "how did my life turn out like this"?
But now look at that bumpy road and consider what's around the bend up ahead. It could be a new job opportunity, or an invitation to a place you've always wanted to go, or new love. I know it's not easy to have an optimistic outlook under the circumstances, Cal, and I don't mean to suggest that all you have to do is think good thoughts and good things will happen. If that were true, none of us would be here mourning our marriages. I've been traveling on that bumpy road, too, and sometimes there's a big storm and it gets muddy and I get stuck for a while. I have to believe there are better things ahead or I'd never try to pull myself out of that muddy hole. Hang in there. Don't get too discouraged by the bad days – you are mourning and that is part of the process. But things are going to get better, and one day you'll find that the good days outnumber the bad. And while you'll never be glad that it ended this way, you may realize that it really was for the best and you will find the love and the life you deserve.
I know that you understand the depth of my pain...I feel that in your reply. We were supposed to be working on our issues during separation. The problem is that WH doesn't do that...he doesn't work on the issues...he avoids them. He just couldn't do it, for whatevere reason. But yes, no matter what he did or was, losing him is a BIG loss. I am devistated. I try to stay busy...and it is hard trying to keep it together for the kids. My IC says it's OK if they see me fall apart every now and then...it shows Im human and that pain is part of life and we shouldnt be afraid to show our feelings. There are days I want to curl up in a ball and just cry...then there are days where I see the joy and the laughter on my children's faces despite all they are going through and I know I must have done something right in this world to have them.
We all got dealt a bad deal, me and the kids...I take the blame for so much. I chose a man who I knew in my heart would walk away from me if I ever put any demands on him. But the fact is, he walked away long before that, maybe not physically but emotionally. Once he became addicted to the pot he was already lost to me...I just didn't know it. It took the first A for me to see that. It has taken the second A for me to see he isnt coming back...he made his choice the day he picked up the pot and walked out the door. Before I found out about OW#2, I so wanted to believe he was going to try. Maybe all of you saw it before me...but I knew then he made his choice...I just couldn't believe it. I somehow hoped against hope that me and the kids meant something to him...that deep down inside he valued us and lvoed us but just couldn't show it. I was wrong. He values nothing...not even himself. When he told me that day he had nothing to lose...he was right.
~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha
In conversations we have had you mentioned that your H has tried to kiss you..
In my mind I wouldn't be happy if I were married or in a relationship with a divorced man and he kissed his XW.. That doesn't show respect for the person he is in a relationship with.
The loneliness is the awful thing .. And seeing him have "FUN" is the trigger..
Cal the fun is empty, in the long run the relationship is not that special..he will have that moment where he misses his family and says what did I do.. Unfortunately that moment may not happen for a long time.
I also what to say to Naomi..
I understand your feelings too..
My H also did things with the OW that I asked him to do with me and he didn't because he didn't want to try anything else.. MC at first said that it may be the madonna complex.. I don't think so..still rattles me .. We have talked about it in MC.. And he doesn't get it in his brain.... All he says is ask me.. DUH.. I have for over 35 yrs. Now I just don't say anything at all.... he can be affectionate.. hug me..but he just doesn't follow thru on the rest of what I have asked for..and all I can say it is not anything outrageous or out of the normal that I need.
Pat
"Time is precious, but truth is more precious than time."
This message has been edited by dancin-gal on Jul 13, 2008 3:58 PM
When he first started seeing OW#2 about 6 months ago, he kept coming around saying he loved me and missed me and wanted me to come back to work at our business. Every night when he called the kids he wanted to talk to me and every night he would end the conversation with I love you. In the last 2 months he has kissed me romantically several times and given me loving hugs. Has been back and forth between I want you, I don't want you several times, and has even tried to have sex with me. But after last Monday when he said he was never coming back and I told him I hated him and wanted to have nothing to do with him, he told our daughter to tell me he loved me. I saw him that Thursday and I was very cold to him, so he left quickly and didnt try anything. He said he loved me as he left and I didn't say it back. I could see that it hurt him. This Thursday he went to kiss me hello and I turned my face...and when he went to leave I backed away from him and he rubbed my arm up and down and said good-bye and for the first time after seeing each other he didn't say he loved me. Today he didnt try anything, but came over to mow the lawn for some reason, then followed me and the kids to his moms house to eat. We sat at opposite ends of the table. He showed me the newspaper though, cause the name of our business was mentioned by someone in an article as being their favorite place to eat. That was pretty cool....and you can see why Im proud of our business and why it is a loss to me not being there or involved anymore. Then he asked if I was going to the amusement park...asked me to look into hotels for the night. I didnt give him an asnwer but asked him why he wants me to go. Of course then he doesnt answer me and said he would call later tonight...he had to go open up.
Part of me wants to go...to seduce him or something just to F-up his so called vow to not cheat on OW, lol. The other part of me doesnt want to go and enable his compartmentalization of us...playing happy family so he can continue to have his cake and eat it too. My MIL tells me "go...he will come around. You have to start somewhere". I just laughed, "I said he is happy partying his brains out...he doesnt want to come back". She thinks I am letting OW win. I still don't think she gets it about the pot either...it's not just about OW. WH just isnt ready, willing, or able to give up any of his addictions. He isnt willing to do the work. He isnt willing to get into recovery. Who knows if he ever will be...
~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha
I couldn't help noticing that you wrote he asked YOU to look into hotels. I am hoping that you didn't and won't. If he wants to take his kids on a trip, HE needs to make ALL the arrangements.
Grrr.
Just my fairy cents' worth and encouraging fairy hugs to you--and DON'T go!
Cal I think the longer you put off the "closure" part of things such as filing divorce papers, having them served, court etc you will continue to allow yourself hope that things will magically change and you can all be a happy family again. He has proven time and time again that he isn't remorseful for his actions.
I've said it before, but I truly think no contact is just best. I don't think you making any arrangements for his plans with the kids is acceptable. Let him make the plans. Let him pick the kids up at your in-laws. Let him drop them off there.
I think as long as you spend time with him, you will have a difficult time healing. How can you heal when the source of your pain is always in your face??
Cal he has clearly checked out of the marriage and is "in love" with the OW. I don't think he could give you any clearer of a indicator than that. He thinks the marriage is done. Now it is time for you to move on and start doing things for Cal.
Yes he gives mixed signals, but I've been in the dating world for 5 years and can assure you that a good percentage of the population does. Just because our heart wants one thing, doesn't mean our head does......and vice versa. Look at his actions, not his words. He is with OW. That is pretty clear to me.
As for dealing with the pain, it just has to happen. Time will lessen it. Live every day and it gets easier.
Every BS experiences horrific pain - the pain of the betrayal, the pain of loss, the pain of heartache, the pain of the unknown, the pain of telling others, etc.
BUT - we don't have to SUFFER. That's the BS allowing - even enabling - ourselves to continue the pain. I believe you are allowing your pain to continue by not looking at what is right in front of you - your H is with an other woman.
I spelled out OW - so the moniker OTHER WOMAN gathers full momentum. Infact, I believe this is his SECOND OTHER WOMAN. He is continuing to allow himself to be duped..to be pleasured...to be selfish...
Twice, Cal. He is still all about himself.
Start being about yourself and begin your healing. Stop the contact; stop the concern for HIM, and START the concern for YOU! That's when your true healing can begin.
Until then, you're going to continue suffering. Indefinitely.
Sorry for the 2 x 4. I just hate to see you suffer.
Peace is not just the absence of war; it's an exercise in compassion. -Dalai Lama
Coming to you from JJ
I just hate to see you suffer.