To those betrayed...
It's still really fresh for me, exactly 1 month to the day when the A news broke
Last night we had a good evening out with relatives but we were around some triggers of the A - location, neighbourhood where the OM lives, etc.
My W has told me somethings about the A. What kind or level of details regarding the A did all of you want to know? She mentioned a local rural city where they drove to park and chat and...she wouldn't tell me exact street. Do I or should I want to know this information.
She's also told me about the evening where they stayed in a local hotel downtown. I wanted to know the hotel name, but she wouldn't tell me. Should I need to know this information?
Our counseller has said that obsessing about the A is wasted energy and not putting positive energy into moving forwards. When those feelings and those little voices start, it is SO hard to stop. When I ask her, I am not belittling her. I am asking and explaining the emotions I am feeling and why this information is important to me. She is concerned that the more information I have will just send me down a rabbit hole, and all come back to cause her more grief. I hadn't asked about the real nitty gritty details of the sexual encounters, as I can use my imagination of what two people would do in a van. I did ask for the first time, how she felt about the first real kisses, the first time she got naked with him. She said it was awkward and completely uncomfortable. I guess with more times, it got a little easier. She's said that he had great difficulty during these times sustaining a hard-on. Should that make me feel better? It does and doesn't. Maybe it is just a story she's feeding me.
All I know for sure, is that if I can't gain control of this it is going to consume my being and devour our relationship.
I love her so much, that I feel that I've failed to be there to protect her and stop the A from happening. I have so much hatred for the OM. What was it like for other betrayed(s) when they encountered the OM/OW? I'd love to know your stories how that went.
That's enough for today...
My W finds that when these dark moments occur, she regresses and is forced to bring back thoughts of an A that she regrets, feels tonnes of remorse, hates what she has done to me. This is SO damn difficult. Someone wake me from this nightmare....
Last night she told me the Hotel name and the street location where they went. So, am I fine now? Nope. I am afraid that last nights request for information has really put a negative wedge into our relationship, and we were getting better and better.
My W suggested I talk with my doctor to ask about some drugs to help me relax and especially sleep at night, when the little voices seem to creep in. Have others had to do this as well?
I am so sorry you are hurting. All of us BS understand because we have been exactly where you are now.
If you have not yet printed out a copy of Joseph's letter from the Helpful Links, I strongly suggest that you do so and give it to your wife. It took a while for me to get my H to understand that I NEEDED to know about the details because when he wouldn't tell me, those facts continued being secrets between him and OW and I was left out, lost and ignorant. I felt even MORE betrayed (which most people wouldn't believe could be possible, but we know better) by his refusal to tell me the complete truth when I asked. Telling us what we ask to know--whatever details each individual BS requests--shows us that WE are more important than the OP and the WS' selfish desire to protect him/herself. Some BS want to know every single detail about the A. Others want very few details. It is up to each individual BS to decide how much s/he wants or needs to know.
I disagree with the therapist saying you don't need to know. I understand the rational that the more details you know, the more you might be hurt, but the truth is that no matter how many of the details we discover, the A happened and we are devastated beyond words.
As far as what your W told you about their sex, my H said the same kind of things about the sex he had with OW. He said their first encounter he was not able to achieve, much less sustain, an erection. Subsequent meetings for sex were more successful, but nothing like the sex we had had prior to his A.
Sometimes BS aren't necessarily looking for all the details. They are looking for the WS' willingness to share all the details, if that makes sense.
Hang in there. You are feeling and acting quite normally for the situation.
ff
edited to add: Andrew, please IMMEDIATELY relinquish the notion that you were responsible for "not being there to protect her." Protecting her from A is NOT your job, never has been and never will be. Your job is to protect YOURSELF from having an A by having boundaries in place to protect your marriage, keeping the lines of communication open with your W, valuing your marriage over irresponsibility, etc. It is EACH INDIVIDUAL's job to do those tasks to prevent A. There is NOTHING you could have done to protect her because the decision to get involved with OM was HERS and HERS alone. By thinking you didn't protect her, you are slipping into a place of blaming yourself for HER A! NO, NO, and NO! Stop doing so immediately. You are NOT to blame.
This message has been edited by fairyfriend on Aug 10, 2008 11:28 AM
I needed to know all .. because what I didn't know was a secret that OW and H shared.. my feeling are there should be no secrets in a relationship.. Yes it hurts to hear the name of hotels, places he took her to eat.the romantic restaurants..I also asked about the sex.. curisioty not really but I had discovered that my H was very romantic with OW gifts.. took her shopping at Victoria Secret.. he has never been that with me so I needed to know..
Do ask your Dr for some drugs.. there are many BS who take something it helps take the edge off.. so you can function..
Take care,
Pat
"Time is precious, but truth is more precious than time."
My goodness, but you are so new and raw to this. To even think of being able to heal at this point is unreasonable. Your life as you knew it has ended, you haven’t even begun to accept what seems totally unreal to all of your senses, even though you know it is true. One of the ways most of us learn to accept our loved ones infidelity is with talking about it, over and over and over and over and over again. We need to turn it all inside out and analyze every detail, and believe me there is no such thing as a minor detail when we are talking about infidelity. You are so normal. Let me say that again, YOU ARE SO NORMAL.
I recommend you do some reading on affairs. A great book is After the Affair, I believe by Janis Abrams. Some will correct me if I am wrong. Surviving infidelity is another good one. I think that while your counselor is well intentioned, she is of the old school. More current therapies encourage discusion of the affair and its details. It is important for the BS to know and hear, and it is important for the WS to tell even though it is painful for both. It is about atonement and acknowledgement by the WS and learning to trust and accept for the BS.
You are going to be on a rollercoaster of emotions for the next 2 years. It tappers off as time goes by, but it does take time. I know this sounds bleak, but it isn’t. There is hope. I and my husband are successfully healed from his 9 month affair in 2001. We hashed it all out, and we are both the better for it.
As the others have said, it was not you that failed in protecting someone, it was your W that failed to protect you and your marriage. She is an adult, she made the choice, you had nothing to do with it. As a BS, you are going to wrestle with your wanting to own responsibility for the affair. In some ways I think it gives us control of some sort when we feel so out of control, but still there was nothing we could have done. Problems in the marriage do make a person more vulnerable, but in the end it is the flaws in the WS themselves that allows them to cheat.
<<Our counseller has said that obsessing about the A is wasted energy and not putting positive energy into moving forwards>>
Boy, oh boy, I'd love to give that counselor a piece of my mind!
My 2 cents are that he / she hasn't any real experience with healing those touched by the ravages of A.
As others have mentioned, "Joseph's" letter is a good reference. For me, "Rick's" letter hit home. They're both
in the reference.
I couldn't get enough details, maybe you won't need as many. But I warn you to be prepared that you will hear things that
will hurt. I can still feel the sting of some things my WS said that could have been left out. From the vantage point of
13 months later (and unless a miracle happens, we're toast - she's gone) I can see that she was deliberately being as
hurtful as she could be in revealing details. Just twisting the knife that was already in my heart.
In your case it sounds like you have a good start on it - but don't rush it. You are still in shock. You will still be at this
for the better part of 2 years. That sounds bad, I know, but that's the accepted norm.
Catch your breath for now. There are more waves behind the one you just survived.
After Dday 1 and 2, my H was never clear or forthright about giving details and answering my questions. I stupidly overlooked this - as his explanation was it caused him so much pain to THINK about the details. What actually was happening was that he was still engaged with the A, and couldn't answer them honestly because that would be outright - in my face - lying. Something he didn't want to do. That may sound strange considering that the entire A was about lying...or at least never telling me everything.
So, after Dday 3 - our splitting up - my getting paperwork ready for D - his panicking about the loss of his M - and his stepping out of the FOG and ready to WORK on his issues...
I asked questions. A lot. Millions. And I wanted TRUTHFUL answers. Even the ones that really hurt him to talk about.
I needed ALL the questions answered - even ones that hurt me to hear, because it helped bridge the "unknown." OW knew, but I didn't. I did NOT want her to have any power over my knowledge.
I also needed him to answer all truthfully so I could see that he was actively engaged in wanting to provide my needs - and to start re-building a trust bond.
He did, and we are. Sometimes having that knowledge makes life a bit more difficult, but I know in the long run it's worth it for me. We're planning a trip back to the area we used to live in, and finding a lodging that H and OW never used is difficult.
Your pain is so raw yet, Andrew. Asking questions - even ones that hurt hearing - will be something only you will know whether or not you need them. My only advice is do NOT NOT ask because you are worried about HER healing...right now concern yourself with YOUR needs. She owes you that honesty and much more.
And PS - I think your C is way off base. It sounds to me like he wants the A swept under a rug. If you choose to do that (I did twice), it will re-emerge someday to bite you back. That merely prolongs the healing stage.
You have received lots of reassurance in these posts, so I just wanted to add my support for you and what the posters have said. You need to know all the details. It is not obsessing; it is demystifying the affair and bringing the fantasy into the cold hard light of day. If you don't know which hotel or street, then every hotel and street is a trigger. If there are things you are not told, they are secrets between your W and OM. Recovery is all about re-establishing the team of you and W and totally disbanding the team of WS and OM. I'm afraid your W just has to suck it up - it wil lhurt her to revisit things she did, but that is the price she has to pay if she wants your marriage to be healed.
On the subject of sex, I am not surprised that OM couldn't maintain his erection. My H was the same, and one of the secrets I know that OW doesn't is that he had to take Cialis every time he was with her, just to be able to perform. This never happened with me. I think there are several other FWSs here who had the same experience. For my H it was because he never felt right being with OW, and knew deep down that it was all a demeaning fantasy.
As Ami says, it takes time, and probably the information will only come out over many months, but from my experience, only when you feel you know it all will you be able to heal.
My take is that you should only ask for the information that you want and decide that you need for healing. You are not required to ask for anything more than what you want.
Once you ask for something, I believe that your wife is obligated to answer the question honestly, without defensiveness or evasion, but also with much compassion and concern for how it will affect you.
It sounds like your counselor may believe that the confrontation of asking your wife these questions is unhealthy for the relationship, and that not knowing the truth somehow protects you. While I am not a counselor or trained in psychology, I believe that learning of an affair is a MAJOR life trauma and many of our reactions are similar to what is described by post traumatic stress. As your counselor what treatment they recommend for treating post traumatic stress, especially in regards to the frequency desire to learn as much as possible about the trauma. From what I've read, the common approach is to allow the traumatized person to learn as much as needed about what happened to them to allow them to understand it and process it.
I just want to say that I am so sorry for your pain. As for my situation, I needed to know the details (not sure if I got them all up to this day). It seemed to me that leaving it up to my imagination was worse. It has been past two and a half years for me and it still hurts when the thoughts come to my head (as they did this morning). The only difference now is that I can get through my day without thinking about it every second. If you still feel love for your W, then that is a good sign. There is nothing sadder then not feeling love towards your spouse after something so hidious like an A. Hang in there and know that whatever you feel is normal.
I needed to know ALL the details, every single one EVERY one.
I have no regrets.
That was 8 years ago. We are together and things are truly good between us.
Check out Joseph's letter on healing links. Also this week's dearpeggy.com
Details are different for each of us. It is about Post Traumatic Stress. Affair recovery is truly an agony that has no words. I am sorry you are in our club. However, this is a wonderful place of healing and we will help you get through it day by day. 8 years ago I did not believe I would survive. Today my marraige is healthy and getting stronger and better each day and I love my husband once again and totally know he loves me.
This is from Peggy Vaughn author of the Monogamy Myth best book ever written.
What about telling the details?
Question:
I insisted on knowing all the details of my wife's affair, including dates and times they met and everything they did. I told her it was better to know the details, and that it would help me to know exactly what took place rather than to always wonder. It was the most difficult thing she ever had to do, but she thought I was entitled to know if that's what I wanted. But it's so difficult on both of us. I wonder if she made a mistake by telling me all the details.
Peggy's Response:
First of all, it's true that unanswered questions create enormous problems, including:
—an inability to trust honesty in the future if no honesty about the past
—feelings of being treated "like a child" when someone knows something
you want to know, but won't tell you
—an imbalance of power and equality in the relationship
by virtue of being unwilling to tell.
Now, having said this, there still is no guarantee that "telling" will make things OK. Even when telling seems to have created problems, it's likely that not telling would have been even worse. (This is similar to taking medicine that doesn't seem to have cured the problem, when, in fact, there's no way to know just how bad the problem might have been without the medicine.)
So it may be a little like "damned if you do, damned if you don't." still, the best bet is on "telling." Because the problems in telling may primarily be affected by a false belief that this can be quickly overcome. As I've said before, I've never known anyone (including myself) who completely recovers from the emotional impact of a spouse's affair in less than 2 years—even with the best efforts by everyone concerned.
So while "second-guessing" the telling is understandable, it's probably still better than the alternative might have been. Time, patience, and continued efforts toward honest communication are still the best bets to getting through this.
Note: The above Question/Response is one of many previous responses I have written that address this issue. All of these questions and responses are now organized together in Collection 2: Rebuilding the Marriage.
For more details about this issue, listed below are the 45 questions from Collection 2 relating specifically to this question:
Talking and Getting Answers
Refusing to talk about the affair?
Not talking about the affair?
Can I move on without knowing details?
How can she lie like this?
Why do they lie?
Why won't he stop lying?
Why did he lie about details?
What if you never tell?
Can I risk telling her the truth?
Is it possible to recover without answers?
When should I stop asking questions?
How much should we discuss her affair?
How can I get answers to my questions?
How can I elicit empathy instead of anger?
What if he can't remember?
What is "taking responsibility?"
Why does he get so angry?
Should I stop asking?
Should I forget my questions?
Should I ask questions?
When will I get the whole truth?
How can I deal with learning there was more?
Can you "move on" after only a few months?
How can I bring up his affair?
Am I wrong to want everything to be honest?
Does asking questions impede our reconnection?
What about telling the details?
How much should we talk about her affair?
How can I go on without discussing the affair?
What if honesty leads to arguments?
What do you mean by "responsible" honesty?
Is it reasonable to want to talk about the affair?
Do they have a right to keep secrets?
Getting answers to my questions?
Why can't she say how she "feels" about her affair?
Is it unreasonable to want to know everything?
What were his "feelings" during the affair?
"Should" I ask for details?
How can I get answers?
Getting answers to my questions?
How can I talk to him when he only gets angry?
What about questions I really can't answer?
How much time should we spend talking?
Do you regret knowing?
What if you're not sure you want the answers?
Note: For the full list of 151 questions in the collection that includes the 45 questions about getting answers and talking, see Collection 2.
To Order:
To order any of the 3 Collections of 151 questions, see: Collections of Questions.
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I need all the details both times. The policy became if I had a question, I asked and he had to answer. After doing that for a while (like 3-6 months) I was sure I had all the info I needed and was able to move onto the next phase of why and what we needed to do now.
Also, want to agree that your counsellor doesn't know what he/she is talking about. You need to fill in the blanks. You need to know your spouse is being totally hones with you. The only way you can get this is to ask questions and have them answered.
By the way, I'm not saying my Hubby enjoyed all my questions, but he accepted that I needed to ask them. So he answered.
I saw how the details just made my mind spin more and create more triggers and distractions around me. I stopped looking and asking for more details. I'd see pictures of the OW, naked, on the internet. Knew her name, saw her hot body. It's hard to say. Knowing some of the details helped me understand the nature of the situation better than the stories I made up in my head. But there's a point where it's just distraction. I tried to get clear enough to know what details, what pieces of information would help me to come to a decision to leave. I mean he went out and screwed another woman the day our beloved dog died...and I didn't leave! Although just typing that now makes me think I should rethink that. focus...focus.... What I personally needed to know was if he fell in love with her and if the A was continuing. He wasn't giving me copies of cell phone bills. He did it to protect me from finding out that he'd been with two women and approached about 50. That however was exactly the evidence I needed to know he hadn't fallen in love. After that I didn't want to know OW2 name, see her picture, know what she looked like, etc etc. I can't even imagine dealing with the triggers of the names of two OWs. One is plenty enough for me. The name was Grace. You would never know how much people actually use that word in the english language. But, let me tell you, from my perspective its ALOT! The double whammy is that I'm supposed to handle this with "grace". Ha, ha. 2 years later and every once in awhile I actually use the word "grace" myself. Ok so its been twice in the last 6 months, but hey I'm proud of my progress. Just because I decided to focus on the big issues doesn't mean I did very well with sticking to that. But, at one point I told him. Never tell me a detail when I am asking for it in a fit of rage. I can't really remember how we handled it but I do remember him saying things like "do you really want to know that, is it going to help to know that, let me think about it and when you ask me again if there is an answer I will tell you". And, then when it was important to me I would tell him what I wanted to know and why it was important and how to get the information. For example, I want to know what the $300 charge is on that hotel night stay. You told me that you didn't send her to the spa, but I can't imagine what else it might be. Please call the hotel and get a detailed listing of that stay and have it e-mailed to me directly from them. When he didn't do that. I made a second request and then did it myself. As far as I could tell it was a billing error which he never followed through on. But, I did find out that he definitely did not send her to the spa. The hotel said they had no record of the charge. I am forever baffled as to what it was or why he didn't go after getting his money back which appeared to me to have been stolen. But, I just let that one go as my needs had been answered. No spa day for OW, at least that time.
My vote is to be very careful with the details. Oh, and good luck with that!
The simple thing is you can not come to terms with what you don't know. You need to know enough about the A to understand its trauma. TomJ is right about how trauma is treated. You have to process it, take it in, own it - and you can't do it without knowing what it is.
BUT, you can set your own limits about what you need to know to understand it and there does seem to be quite a bit of variation in how much detail people need. So you need to know what matters to you - reading affair books may help to work out what your questions are. For me, I know there was some invisible but firm line that would mark when the amount of information might be too much, too much for me to respect my H as my H ever again. But I also think I did not ask enough questions early enough.
I found that the After the Affair and Not Just Friends helped me to sort out what questions mattered most to me though I wish I had read those books sooner.
Be careful not to ask questions impulsively (unless you know they are questions that have been preying on your mind - that's different).
I think it's better not to ask the questions all at once though WS may prefer that to get it out of the way. It's too hard to process all of the information without being completely overwhelmed yourself.
So I too think your C is way off base. It may be useful to bring some information from the affair books to a session to reinforce how important it is for you to be able to ask what you need to know to understand your trauma.
I remember asking for every detail. I found that if I didn't get the answer then it would play in my mind the way I saw it. It usually was worse in my head than what actually happened.
Getting the answers is not easy. I remember asking what hotel it was, he told me and now when we drive by it that is what I think of. They have changed the name on it so it makes it a little easier. There was a little park that they met for lunch-I had him take me there. I asked questions and cried and now the little road that takes you to the park was stuck in my head.
I needed to know these things. One for my own sanity and two I wanted to make sure that those places couldn't hold any "special" meaning to him. Now when I pass those places I tell myself it is in our past. Another huge bump in our road that we made it over.
I think, by the sound of it, you need to hear what you are asking.
I'm going to echo the last comments. Not knowing (and to be honest, in my case, I don't believe I
have the truth) was worse than not knowing. I have pieces of info, and knowing my WS, I can probably
fill in the blanks. We did not survive the A and are separated, most likely headed for D.
I was like the last poster (can I call you lll5287?), in that I needed to keep our relationship "special".
She just lied through her eye teeth. So sad. It's amazing how cruel a BS can be to the mate they
pledged themselves to.
From experience I encourage you to ask your questions, thoughtfully and as calmly and unemotionally as you can muster. That's an immense undertaking. If she really wants to help heal you and your
marriage - she will answer, even if it embarrasses and/or shames her. It might not happen overnight,
but you shouldn't be kept waiting a long time. Tell her you have no choice but to consider her willingness
to help you with this as indicative of her commitment to healing the marriage.
It is been almost 5 years now since D-day. I am one who had to know everything...the first few years were trigger after trigger, but I found myself going to the places and things of that sort to let myself feel released of his past.. Sure I have triggers now and then but far and few inbetween. In my relationship everything has to be in the open. It was the only way to heal for myself and my husband...Now there is nothing I don't know.. and if I do question he is always willing to give a truthful answer..This has taken alot of work, but everyone has there own personal bubble where you can start living the life you thought you had lost...
it is hard to hear and feel the emotions that run through your soul..but I feel once you both have faced all that has happened there is nothing eles except each other becoming one again
Love at first sight is easy to understand; it's when two people have been looking at each other for a lifetime that it becomes a miracle.
..............LittleBit..............
You know that when I hate you, it is because I love you to a point of passion that unhinges my soul..
I'm another one who need all the details. I couldn't forget the question until I got it answered and sometimes need to ask more than once to be sure the answer still fit. I am currenly 3 years past d-day and still with Hubby.
I continue to ask questions and it's probably only going to increase from here on out. Initially my wife lied throughout the A and gave inconsistent answers. Then once she came back some of the truth came out, but I could tell she wasnt being 100% honest. Her answers were more consistent and revealing, but still not the whole truth. Nearly 2 years later and I just found out more information about the A details. She claimed she was lying and holding back to 'prectect me' and spare me more pain, but all it as done is ripped the wounds wide open and caused me to requestion EVERYTHING.
This message has been edited by lwright84 on Mar 25, 2009 12:52 PM
