I didn't want to thread jack Hope's post on what it looks like to be healed. It just got me thinking, does one ever really heal? I know it has been talked about many times. It amazing how it takes a second to ruin something and a life long time to "heal" from a stupid action.
I really don't know if people truely "heal" from this sort of thing. Yes, we do move on and not obsess over the A like we use to. We do learn to laugh again, sleep again, eat again, etc. But heal?? Hmmm...don't know.
I do know that I am not the person I was before the A. A big part of me died with the actions of my H. I feel robbed that I can no longer trust anyone again, then angry at myself because I can't....won't. Sadly enough, it is just not worth risking going through that kind of pain ever again. Not with him or anyone else.
This A was a huge disapointment in my life that left me humiliated, violated, rejected, crushed, deflated, unloved, depressed, angry, sad, confused, lost, crazy, drained, lifeless, and stabbed in the back by the person who was suppose to be my protector.....no matter how terrible the marriage, we were in it together (at least that's what I thought). How does one get the feelings of love that they once had for their after something horrific like that? ReallY??????
It's been over 3 years for me. I can't say that my M is better. It just isn't what it use to be for me.
Someone once compared it to a broken bone, or a deep laceration.
There will always be evidence of the broken bone... something visible in an X-ray, an ache when the weather changes, maybe even an unusual curve or changed length in the limb. However, the bone is healed and it is even stronger at the break than it was before the injury.
The same with the laceration... a scar may be there after it is healed, and you will be able to see that scar when you look at the injury, or you might be able to feel it when you run your hand over it. The sense of touch will be different than before if the underlaying nerves were damaged. Skin is healed and even better able to withstand another cut.
Yet, you are healed. Changed, but healed. Traumatized, but healed. Not totally and perfectly restored, but healed.
TomJ
This message has been edited by tomj76 on Feb 17, 2009 9:16 AM
>How does one get the feelings of love that they once had for their after something horrific like that?
I don't mean this to criticize you, because this is something that everyone struggles with. I think this comes when we really and truly understand what love is. Unfortunately, our idea of love (i.e romance and warm and fuzzy feelings) does not embody the kind of love that is needed to love a spouse (even a remorseful one) after adultery. This is the kind of love that requires patience and kindness when it is not deserved, that holds no grudges or grievances, that trusts when it's not deserved. This kind of love doesn't come naturally to most of us.
Does one ever really heal? I am going to have to say YES! If we as people do not have the ability to heal from what effects us adversely in life, then we are in serious trouble. But what healing exactly means, is different to different people. For me it means that I have processed and accepted the affair as part of my life. Do I look at my husband differently? Yes, Absolutely. Has it effected me in that I now approach life differently? Yes Absolutely. Because I am changed, this does not mean I am not healed.
Like you a huge part of me died when I learned what betrayal really means. I mourned the loss greatly. I had to find a new way to view my life/world. I did however, find away. I come back to acceptance. I accept this into my life. I accept that there are no guarantees. And I have confidence in my ability to be able to hurt so deeply again and survive. I no longer believe that bad things happen only to other people. For me this is a good thing, it has been a painful, but also rewarding path to personal growth.
I do trust again. I wouldnt even say it was guarded these days. It is different though, vastly different than the way I trusted before. It is a knowing trust. I give my trust with the knowledge that it can be broken, and I am OK with this. I embrace my ability to be hurt, to be vulnerable, because even though it carries great risk, it also carries with it great rewards. I refuse, adamantly refuse to, to allow the A Trauma, and what two stupid people did at an extremely selfish point in their lives to rob me of the pleasures in life. So I trust, in spite of the pain my trusting caused or may cause. I also trust my ability to be imperfect, but I also know it is ten times more aware than it ever was, and I am proud of that.
This A was a huge disapointment in my life that left me humiliated, violated, rejected, crushed, deflated, unloved, depressed, angry, sad, confused, lost, crazy, drained, lifeless, and stabbed in the back by the person who was suppose to be my protector.....no matter how terrible the marriage, we were in it together (at least that's what I thought). ((((HUGS))) Yep Me Too.
How does one get the feelings of love that they once had for their after something horrific like that? ReallY??????
For me it was by force of will. I wanted to love him, and I held on for dear life to what ever love I could find for him. At times I failed, but I persevered and I was able to love him again. The love we share today is different from before, I expect less of it and him, and more of myself. Not sure that makes sense. But I have lost, mourned, and am now grateful that I no longer believe in the fantasy of true love, now I love realistically. I have to say, I am much happier with this realistic love.
Jetta, each of us have to find our own way to healing. For some of us it is with our partner, for others it is not. Neither is a failure or better than the other. Reconciliation is not for everyone. I dont know if that means you or not, but I do know that if it does not then there is nothing at all wrong with that, and it does not mean that you did something wrong or were somehow less deserving, or that you never loved enough.
Jetta,
I know exactly what you mean....healing is a hard concept to apply to the devastation of what we have all been through. I think, though, that Tom is right - we will never be healed in the sense of being completely recovered, like it never happened. A big, fat trauma did happen and will always be part of our lives. To expect otherwise is, at least for me, unrealistic.
So, healing has to take on a different meaning. Is the pain lessening - less frequent, less stabbing? Do you feel differently about your H's behavior? Do you recognize it as selfish and having to do with his issues? Is the M doing better? Are you OK with your life today? Do you think you would be happier out of your M? (For a long time I thought I would, but I realized that the pain of the betrayal wouldn't go away but the pain of loneliness and loss would become stronger). Most importantly, have you moved through the feelings of inadequacy and recognized that it was not you and that you are better than that person you felt like right after D Day?
I am moving in the right direction but I wouldn't say that I am healed. I am recovering. It helps me to look at the positives - our M is better than it would have been without the trauma, I am addressing issues I should have addressed years ago, I am learning to respect myself. I wish the price wasn't so great but it just is.
Good discussion, Jetta.
Good discussion/ thread...I am seriously wondering about myself, if there is something wrong with me.. Do I know how to love, or have the kind of love it takes to repair M after my H's actions...It has been almost 2 1/2 years out since D day...I don't see the remorse that I need from him,I haven't seen initiatives on his part to make me feel like I am worth him going thru the painful work of seeing what made him lie to me and betray me.. H seems to do enough on the surface so that day to day life is bearable in the same house with him, but when we get into arguments about where our M is headed, H says that what he is doing for me around the house, should be enough for me to want to work on the M.. ( H knows that if i kick him out, or extricate myself from him, and our situation, he is homeless with no job).. I do feel lonely when he is around, because he is usually tuned out, with his head into the TV, or computer, or his mind is somewhere else...How do you get the strength, to fall back into love with, or work on the M with somebody like that?
To heal enough to make life good again with or without H, I think there needs to be enough people, fun, and support in life, that the pain/ resentment/ anger can fade enough, to get a clear head to deal with them
This message has been edited by stuckinonespot on Feb 17, 2009 1:40 PM
TomJ said, "Unfortunately, our idea of love (i.e romance and warm and fuzzy feelings) does not embody the kind of love that is needed to love a spouse (even a remorseful one) after adultery. This is the kind of love that requires patience and kindness when it is not deserved, that holds no grudges or grievances, that trusts when it's not deserved. This kind of love doesn't come naturally to most of us."
This is it. Our ideas of love and "falling in love" are so screwed up. There is no love at first sight. There is only mental or sexual attraction at first sight, period! Real love is too deep and too strong an emotion to be based on mental or sexual attraction and excitement.
It hurts me down to my soul that my husband had the same sexual excitement with the OW that he had when he first met me. It tears me up that he spent so much time courting her and giving her attention and romance. But what you have to recognize and what your spouse has to recognize to heal is that that this was not "falling in love". This was not any kind of real love
My husband went through these same feelings with plenty of girlfriends before he ever met me. My husband can go out and find another woman that stirs those same emotions in him, have instant "chemistry" or "fall in love at first sight" any night of the week. My husband didn't give that woman anything that even resembles the real love that we had and still have for each other.
When your marriage is healed you and your spouse both recognize the real love that binds you together. The real love that holds you together through excitement, joy AND pain, sorrow and disappointment in life. Healing is recognizing what real love is and a recommitment to hold together and be there for each other through everything you encounter in the journey of life.
In life the past never goes away. We always remember the pain and disappointment we have endured in our life. You see people on this forum who are 8 or 10 years away from Dday and still they will have bad days when they break down. That doesn't mean that they or their marriage isn't healed. You just can't forget the pain of the past and some times it comes back to haunt you.
Fear paralyzes us and it keeps us from showing the love we feel for our WS. The WS has a lot of responsibility in repairing the damage and rebuilding trust, but if you let your fear withhold the love that you feel for your WS, then your WS becomes paralyzed with doubt and fear that the bond of real love you have is severed forever. This is where unselfish love has to kick in because you want your WS to hold on to the real love you share, but they can't do that if they don't feel loved by you.
It's complicated and hard because you think you have to forgive your WS before you can heal, but I don't really look at this as an act of forgiveness. I think it is more an act of redemption. You both recognize that what your spouse has done is unforgiveable, but through true love with honest communication and mutual commitment your spouse can be redeemed and you can go on loving each other.
This message has been edited by Tamatha on Feb 17, 2009 8:50 PM
Ok...maybe this is where my thinking is warped. It is normal for the "warm and fuzzy feelings" to fade in a marriage. I completly understand that, and that is not what I am expecting or waiting for. That was gone as the years passed. Love to me is mutual respect, companionship, and protection (to each other and your family).
However, I think this is what people who cheat are looking for. They want their ego stroked no matter the price. If that is the case, then they should leave the marriage the right way.
Real love to me means not hurting someone to the point where you risk throwing it all away, plus putting their health at risk??? What I don't understand is if people know that cheating is not right, then why do they do it if they know it will cause pain? We all know that! Causing that kind of pain is not love. It is just plain cruel.
Don't get me wrong, I do not hate my H. I just can't feel what I felt for him before the A....and I'm not talking about the "warm fuzzy feelings". I do love him because he has been a big part of my life for many years. I just don't feel.
They do it because they don't think they will get caught, and what we the BS's don't know won't hurt us. They do it because they have week boundreis and they can rationalize it away. They do it for the drug that makes them high and feel better about themselves. But then when they are home they feel the guilt and so feel worse about themselves and need more of the drug to feel better again. And on goes the cycle, until they stop it or they get caught, most seem to get caught.
It is not about right and wrong to most WS's many seem to think that their affair is different and allowable, where others are not. The lies the WS tells themselves are bigger than the ones they tell everyone else.
Jetta said, "Real love to me means not hurting someone to the point where you risk throwing it all away, plus putting their health at risk??? What I don't understand is if people know that cheating is not right, then why do they do it if they know it will cause pain? We all know that! Causing that kind of pain is not love. It is just plain cruel."
It's cruel, it's selfish, it's wrong in every sense, but it's human. I'm capable of hurting people I love, I've done it in the past and I'm capable of doing in the future. Maybe I've never hurt anyone to this extent, but rationally, I can understand that someone I love can hurt me this badly even though they never consciously meant to do it and that they never stopped loving me even though they did it.
Like Ami said, my husband made up excuses as he went along. First it was that is was only going to be a one night stand and what I didn't know wouldn't hurt me. Then he told himself that if I did find out I'd forgive him because it was only sex, not an affair. But then as he got further into it, he had to start rewriting history and convince himself that he was in love with her to justify it because he was so ashamed of what he was doing and he knew he still loved me, so it had to be that he just wasn't "in love" with me anymore.
I don't think my husband understands why he stuck that first foot over the line anymore than I understand it. He just did it and it can never be changed. I can't picture my life without him there to talk to, to confide in, to joke, laugh and have fun. I can't picture my life in a bed alone every night, not cuddled up against him. That thought is more painful to me than any mistake he made in the past even though that mistake was selfish, cruel and devastating.
Everyone here had a different relationship before and after Dday. Each of us struggles through the pain in our own way. I hate that I can't come up with any words to help you feel better or to even give you some hope that it can get better.
My 50 year old sister got married again on Valentine's Day after raising her 2 kids by herself for 18 years. I scanned the computer for Valentine "Love" sayings one day for her Wedding. I came across a very interesting quote,
"It's crazy right? To love some one that's hurt you. It's crazier to think some one who's hurt you loves you too."
This quote hit me hard. Not only did I always promise myself that I would leave a man that cheated on me, but my H also stated that he would have left me if I ever cheated on him.
The unavoidable did happen and he did cheat on me. I couldn't for the life of me leave him. Why??????????
The process of accepting that he was capable of doing such a horrendous thing to me was beyond my understanding. Yet he was willing to make the effort and stay. The first 3 years after d day were hysterical. However reality kept creeping into our life and I forced myself to make the best of it. I kept pushing the time line on and on until 1/2 a decade had passed. Now I am entering my 9th year past d day. With each reason I decided to stay I realized the time came when I didn't need a reason to stay.
The process of allowing ourselves to absorb what happened to us is overwhelming. I honestly lived out so many emotions towards my H that I can't Tally them all up any more. I remember believing that my H had to have wanted to divorce me that is why he cheated. I accepted being divorced by him for the longest time and dismissed his every move. Even though I truly believed that I had things all figured out the way I was acting wasn't working.
My resentment towards my H was controlling and I was diminishing my life. I had to come to grips with what I was doing to sabatoge our marriage.
No one around here knows what happened! I started realizing how much I have changed. I go ballistic when my sisters and daughter watch the TV show "Bachelor". I am horrified they are basing a TV shows on such cheap, shallow "LOVE". I recognize all the signs of ego emotions and judge people quickly. I go down fast when people are grieving a great loss because I recognize my own grieving in them. Living through infidelity with my H has changes me forever. However there comes a point when you have to realize human mistakes happen.
I read a book early on in my healing process and it stated most people could be vulnerable to an affair. I rebelled right away. However with some deep thinking after I did see possible situations that could have tempted me before I lived through the reality of infidelity. Now I am so against adultery, infidelity, one night stands or anything to do with cheating because of the trauma I lived through. I will never forget the betrayal of our life together, for our children we create together, or our shared relatives. He crushed my very soul and it hurt beyond words.
>Real love to me means not hurting someone to the point where you risk throwing it all away, plus putting their health at risk??? What I don't understand is if people know that cheating is not right, then why do they do it if they know it will cause pain?
I agree, it is not real love. I don't think it's done for any reason but selfishness, which doesn't love anyone, not even the OP.
How someone goes from being loving to someone engaging in adultery often comes in little steps that escalate to something unexpected. I don't think my wife started down the path to adultery knowing (that is, being proactive, living in truth, not in denial) where it was leading, but when she reached to point of doing it, it had become a small step.
Maybe the lyrics to this song will help....
Be careful little eyes what you see
It's the second glance that ties your hands as darkness pulls the strings
Be careful little feet where you go
For it's the little feet behind you that are sure to follow
It's a slow fade when you give yourself away
It's a slow fade when black and white have turned to gray
Thoughts invade, choices are made, a price will be paid
When you give yourself away
People never crumble in a day
It's a slow fade, it's a slow fade
Be careful little ears what you hear
When flattery leads to compromise, the end is always near
Be careful little lips what you say
For empty words and promises lead broken hearts astray
It's a slow fade when you give yourself away
It's a slow fade when black and white have turned to gray
Thoughts invade, choices are made, a price will be paid
When you give yourself away
People never crumble in a day
The journey from your mind to your hands
Is shorter than you're thinking
Be careful if you think you stand
You just might be sinking
It's a slow fade when you give yourself away
It's a slow fade when black and white have turned to gray
Thoughts invade, choices are made, a price will be paid
When you give yourself away
People never crumble in a day
Daddies never crumble in a day
Families never crumble in a day
Oh be careful little eyes what you see
Oh be careful little eyes what you see
For the Father up above is looking down in love
Oh be careful little eyes what you see
This message has been edited by tomj76 on Feb 18, 2009 1:32 PM
This brought tears to my eyes: the affair "left me humiliated, violated, rejected, crushed, deflated, unloved, depressed, angry, sad, confused, lost, crazy, drained, lifeless, and stabbed in the back by the person who was suppose to be my protector." That encapsulates for me the impact of the affair. The others have written so many wise words about how to accommodate these feelings in your life and stick with your H in spite of them.
The affair has changed me and our relationship. It isn't the same marriage we had for 24 years before that one night stand that became four years of betrayal. I don't feel the same way about my H; I still go through days when I want to leave him, be on my own, just get away from it all. I stay because we have 32 years of life together, two kids, a cat, a house, a shared profession, all sorts of reasons which result in a kind of passive, fundamental connection. And I stay because he is totally remorseful (at last) and he has shown me that those words apply to him even more than to me. Is it love, or just familiarity? For now it's enough to keep me with him. But, as someone said on another thread, I now know I can do without him. Are we healed? Yes, in a way, but with painful scars, permanent disfigurement, constant mental trauma. Will it get any better? I guess it is; I don't obsess about the A and OW as much; I can talk to H about something other than the A; it isn't in my thoughts every minute (only every hour now LOL). Sometimes I even feel vaguely happy. We can't be as we were before, but we can come to some comfort in each other's presence.
OT: I so agree with Amber about the superficial portrayal of love and relationships in the media these days. What are we teaching our younger generations? That relationships are all about sex and when you've had enough you walk away? That there has to be the warm fuzzy feeling or it isn't worth staying? That loving someone is all sweetness and light and if it's hard and involves work there's no point? Grrrrrrr!
Mere words are insufficient to explain to others the deepest feelings we hold in our hearts.
There are so many areas, so many levels, that were wounded and affected by the A, that it seems overwhelming--one's personal self-esteem/humiliation, one's view of the world and ability to trust, one's view of their partner and their view of the relationship itself, worries about the impact on other family members (especially children if there are any), concerns about OP pregnancy issues, STD's, one's standing in the community/church, gossip, possible separation/divorce/financial/housing issues, having to interact with the OP at any level, depression/mental health--the list could go on and on.
So, in my view, true healing must take into the mix all of these areas as they apply to a BS' life. As a result, a BS starts the healing process at a distinct disadvantage. No big revelation...
I think what frustrates many betrayed (myself included), is that even after they do everything "right" in terms of reading all the affair self-help literature and trying to apply what they've read, getting counseling, seeking help wherever it may be found (including here on HH), endless bouts of introspection, repeating their story over and over, some of us are still left with a profound emptiness towards the WS, as you have described, Jetta, even when the WS is truly remorseful.
A wise sage once said, "Muddy water let stand still soon will become clear."
I have found that only by my own attempts to EMPTY MY MIND, will the resolutions present themselves to me--at least at this late stage, many years after the A's. The more I chase after answers, the more they elude me. Otherwise it's like trying to look directly at a "floater" in your eye.
There is so much static and background noise in my chaotic mind that only by setting aside what little "free" time I can to meditate, do I find peace of soul. And I misspoke--one cannot "attempt" to empty the mind. It cannot be forced or pushed. It just means sitting alone, away from all distractions, and allowing your thoughts to settle out, much like small waves gently and slowly coming and receding on the shore. More like being an observer than a participant. If nothing else, it may help you to worry less about your feelings (or lack of), and accept the present moment.
BB
This message has been edited by BayouBlues on Feb 22, 2009 8:45 AM
That is exactly where I am at. I couldn't of said it better myself. The years and hard work of building what we have in regards to finaces (especially in todays economy), children, and years of history between us. We have worked hard to get from having nothing, to supporting a family and finacial future. I don't hate my H, but I do hate what his actions have done to our marriage (and my thinking). It is frustrating at times, and sad at others. His arms just don't feel the same around me anymore. It is what I feel and I can't deny it or pretend. Maybe one day (if it's not too late), I will be able to feel the comfort that I use to feel.
Blue,
Your words make sense to me. It is like muddy water. In moments it settles and it clears up. Then something comes along and unsettles it again. I think the reality for me is that it will always be like that. That is the frustrating and sad part about all of this. I, like many others here, just have to live through it and deal with it no matter what. It is a sad part that I carry with me and no matter what one reads, says, or do, it creeps in even for a moment. That is something that will be there forever and has changed a part of who I use to be or believe.
I am, and by acknowledging that "the joy of pain and fear" has hooked me, only then can I take steps to break free of this painful pleasure. I know it is counter-intuitive, indeed. The triggers and other instant replays that keep surfacing feed this addiction. I have thus worn deep grooves in the neuron circuits in my brain, making the connections stronger and stronger each time, making my addiction stronger and stronger as well. Compelling.
For those of you who ever smoked, do you recall your first cigarette? Remember how you coughed & choked and felt nausea, and how awful an experience it was? Painful, even? And then through repetition, we became accustomed to it and eventually found exquisite pleasure in it? And then being faced with great challenges when trying to give it up?
I believe the same holds true for post-affair agonizing. The nausea and pain of D Day, then the aftershocks, and later, the unconscious addiction to it. People become addicted to cutting themselves through the same process.
Remember this song by Carly Simon?
All those crazy nights when I cried myself to sleep
Now melodrama never makes me weep anymore
'Cause I haven't got time for the pain
I haven't got room for the pain
I haven't the NEED for the pain
Not since I've known you
You showed me how, how to leave myself behind
How to turn down the noise in my mind
Now I haven't got time for the pain
I haven't got room for the pain
I haven't the NEED for the pain
Not since I've known you
Suffering was the only thing that made me feel I was alive
Though that's just how much it cost to survive in this world
Till you showed me how, how to fill my heart with love
How to open up and drink in all that white light
Pouring down from the heavens
I haven't got time for the pain
I haven't got room for the pain
I haven't the NEED for the pain
Not since I've known you
BB
This message has been edited by BayouBlues on Feb 25, 2009 5:00 PM
It's been nearly 2 years for me. I was so filled with hope, faith, and love when I fought to have my W come back home and end her A. Now, after enduring nearly 2 years of 'protective lies' about the details, triggers and reminders galore, and an overwhelming amount of every emotion\feeling you listed and more.. I don't know anymore. I don't look at her the same and I don't foresee a time that I ever will. I don't love her the same, and I don't foresee that time either. I hate myself and my second-rate life that I had no choice or hand in it's downgrade. I can't be around her without imagining a porn scene between the two of them in my head.
You know that scene in The Ring, right before the old dude electrocutes himself? He's talking about his crazy daughter and the images that she put in his wife's head. He said 'my wife, put a drill to her temple in an attempt to bore the images out'. Exactly how I feel somedays.
Sorry your hurting Larry. I have come to the reality that we just need to get through our days. Some days are tougher then others. It's just sad how a stupid selfish act can just leave a horrible taste in your mouth. Don't get me wrong, I am not dwelling on the situation. It is just a reality and a part of the history now. Life does go on and we may have days where we don't think about it. However, it does creep up on you causing you to not look at things the way we use to, that's all. I do laugh and enjoy the good things in life, but I just miss the "once upon a time" part of it when the marriage was innocent and clean.
You are so right about missing purity and innocence of the marriage as it seemed to be. And the sad thing is that my former WS spouse also misses that: he is so gutted that he destroyed our lives and that because of him things will never be the same. So for 4.5 years of depression (chasing OW to get her to let him go ....) he pays with his marriage as he knew it and his respect for himself. I need to remind myself of that sometimes, that if anything he is now a harsher judge of his own behaviour than I am.
Liz,
What you say is so true. I think that my H knows that what he did is unfixable. I know that he is hating himself for what he did too. He is still around putting up with me, but sometimes I'm not quite sure why. An A is something that is difficult to swallow, regardless of how many years roll by, or the therapy that one receives. The purity of it is just gone along with a little piece of you.
Dear Jett and all - I have just read the whole thread and it is very beautiful and made me feel so hopeful. Whilst reading my own position became clearer and here is where I am today.
I feel that I have no regret that I believed in fairy tales about my marriage. I can also see the wonder of allowing that loss and the truth about real life to help me keep in touch with something much deeper. I feel connected into something much more real - a kind of shining brilliant wonder that everyone is really in this together and we all love each other - I feel this profoundly - But the love is not personal - It is a kind of just knowing that just being here is ok, beautiful and fine - with all the mistakes and selfish betrayals in that too - that is just how it is and it goes on - but, somewhere within all this is that great big sense of accepting that this is how it is. Today in England it is a Spring day and I have been taking in the fragrance of the new flowers - that is a bit like the sense of it all - It does keep on springing up and offering some kind of beauty - and all I have to do is keep on remembering the pain as it helps me touch into that profound feeling - to take in the fragrance - THIS IS IT and I am alive - nothing is perfect.
(((Jerry!)))
Your post moved me. Your words lifted me up and I am so happy that my post helped you as well. It is a new day and life goes on. We will make ourselves nutty trying to figure out this whole A thing, not that we should/can ever forget it. But it is what it is, and the bottom line is it wasn't our fault. We will look foward to the good things in life...like spring and keeping good health (hopefully). It is also a good feeling to know that the people here have come together to lend one another support, even when we slip. It is a beautiful day here too, Jerry!
I think I will plant a flower in honor of all the people who have/continue to struggle. A flower that will remind me of the wonderful people I have met on this site!
