Hi all.

Just wondering who all out there is in a similar situation.
Maybe several years out from d-day.
Went through trying to R with an unremorseful WS or a WS who did nothing of substance to heal you or the M.
You eventually realized that the M was unsalvagable.
You strongly considered D.
But, for whatever reason, you stay in the M...in an 'invisible divorce' of sorts.
For now.

Anyone?

"It's a mad mission, under difficult conditions. Not everybody makes it to the loving cup. It's a mad mission, but I got the ambition. It's a mad, mad Mission. Sign me up." -Patty Griffin

(((MM)))
Count me in as one of those people..I'm glad we're writing to each other over in Healing about our situations, it is helping me a lot...I read and posted on these boards frequently in year one post D -day, but not so much in the last 2 years, until now..I am feeling like my situation is getting to me in a way that I must do something soon or else lose my sanity, health, or both...I drink way more than I used to, 1-2 drinks almost every day, for the last few months..I used to be a total non drinker..I think my friends and relatives that know about my situation, and that are on my side( grand total of 3 people that know ) are losing patience with listening to me talk about my situation, until they hear that I am DOING something concrete to get on with my life...So I have been visiting these boards lately, and it brings some relief to my feelings of isolation, to be around people that have similar problems, to hear your stories, to respond and try to help..
Lisa

Hi Lisa,

You are so NOT alone. I have been lurking and posting on infidelity forums since Oct 07. Sadly, and maybe because I suck at computers(LOL!), I didn't even KNOW there were infidelity forums until I was nearly 3 yrs yrs out from d-day! And, during those 1st few yrs, I had ONLY my best friend to talk to. No one else knows. I did do IC for about 6 months, until the therapist moved away. But, I knew no BS personally enough to talk to... so I struggled...feeling my way through the dark...with no idea about how to really handle my situation or what to do. It was SO HARD.
Then I discovered these forums....well, I thought I died and went to heaven! There ARE other people out there who have been through what I am going through. I finally had my feelings validated...and I was NOT crazy for being CRUSHED by my H's betrayal.
The fact that I could NOT get over it....normal! I learned SO MUCH over the last couple of years on these boards. I wonder, to this day, if I had found this kind of support, which only these forums offer, the benefit of other BS's experience...if I would have 180'd and/or D'd shortly after d-day. I would have had such clarity about the ways in which my H was mis-managing the aftermath...because an 'experienced' BS would have said "he's throwing you bones to keep you in the M." But, I had to figure out stuff like that all by myself. And, I am such a gulable person...so easily fooled and manipulated by my H... I just had no idea. So, that is largely why I still frequent infidelity forums. I really hope that I am able to help other BS get clarity about their situations. It's all so painful.

Anyhow, what is happening to you...now being several years out from d-day...is all so 'typical.' I have read it over and over again so many times. The BS hangs in there and holds out hope for R...waiting and watching for their WS to do SOMETHING...change in some way...'return' to them....turn a corner. And, it just never really happens. The BS is left at the curb they were kicked to. The WS either cannot or will not...do the work necessary to help heal their BS or the M. And, several years go by...and the BS finally feels DONE. They are spent. They feel alone. They are resentful. Their WS 'got away' with it...with little or no real consequences or negative fallout. And, probably most significant...is that the BS now sees their WS for WHO they really are. And, they are NO LONGER someone they would ever choose to be married to.

Oh...Lisa....wow...I can really go on and on....

Anyhow...you are NOT alone.
It is understandable that you are finally getting to that place where you feel DONE.
You just want out.

I totally understand that.

((((Lisa))))

"It's a mad mission, under difficult conditions. Not everybody makes it to the loving cup. It's a mad mission, but I got the ambition. It's a mad, mad Mission. Sign me up." -Patty Griffin

Mad Mission,
There have been a few members here who stayed in their marriages because they had children and didn't want to break up their home..
I know that it is hard.. when i first discovered m H's A's 25 yearws ago I really struggled trying to decide what to do.. I stayed because my H promised to be faithful.. he was wasn't ..but it was good for my children.. they were not aware of my H's A's and he was a good father..I blamed my self.. so I wore the coat of thorns.. blaming my self for his infidelity.. the culture was wife was to blame for H's A's.. I wasn't taking care of my H.. there was no iternet .. and so i blamed me for his selfishness.. fast forward 25 yrs.. thinking changes.. and life is a bit different.. I was never responsible for his infidelity.. it was all about him.. with much IC and MC my H is a changed person..

So 25 years ago I stayed with a man who was not sorry..who know what my life would be today if I had divorced..but today my children dealing with their own issues and thankfully don;t have to deal with step parents or divorce..

Not sure what you are asking ..but for me it worked staying..

((((hugs)))

pat

"Time is precious, but truth is more precious than time."

To Mad Mission,
I heard something in your letter. About H "mismanaging the aftermath"
That rings for me because my H made EVERY mistake in the book. One big one was "allowing" me to believe the starting point was in Jan. and I unexpectedly, in a ridiculous moment called my old "friend" the OW who started in telling me it started the Sept. before that!
That was a terrible terrible moment.
But I have realized since that H was misguidedly trying to protect me. To "under value" the A I guess.

I think I'm trying to say, NONE of us knows how to handle this and the WS feels very very very bad about their self. With my H he shows that bad feeling in ways that I have realized make him look guiltier than he is! I mean in terms of true attachment there.

And then I would react to my imagination and it was all spiralling into seeming like something that it was really NOT! Making sense?

And I luckily found some amazing help. Never did the C thing. Just cannot have confidence in strangers (except you all of course!)

Ok, the two quickest best things, I keep repeating this, sorry, but I found value here.
1. WikiHow How to rebuild your spouses trust after and affair.
Make two copies and ask him to read his RIGHT AWAY

2. U-tube Mens brains Womens brains
Watch it together FIRST CHANCE YOU GET!

Am I off base? Deb

Hi Pat,

I can't even imagine how hard it must have been to 'survive' infidelity some 25 yrs ago! You are right. It was a whole different world then. I hope you realize the amazing person you are to have gotten through it...keeping your family intact...successfully protecting your kids from ugly adult issues...and the strength and determination it took for you to suck it up and make it through each day. Wow.

And, I am assuming that your M relationship has survived as well? As it sounds like you and your H are still together.

That is where we differ. I have no M with my H. All that remains is a very nice partnership in co-parenting. I desperately wanted a restored M relationship with him. But, he did not want the same thing. We have NO marriage. Still quite hard for me to believe sometimes. But, it is true. I am actually OK with that now, some 4.5 yrs later...and wouldn't have it any other way. He is not at all the man I married... and would never choose to be married to HIM.

I am looking at crossing a difficult bridge in about 6 - 7 yrs.
I am going to D.
Unless something unforseen happens, I am hoping my kids will be 'independent' and my H in good health...so that I can leave.
I cannot stay in a M with a man who does NOT really CARE about me or want ME.
Nope...I would rather be alone.
While I have done a good job in healing myself over the last several years...I look forward to the day when my dignity and self-respect will be FULLY restored...which will likely be sometime in the Fall of 2016.


"It's a mad mission, under difficult conditions. Not everybody makes it to the loving cup. It's a mad mission, but I got the ambition. It's a mad, mad Mission. Sign me up." -Patty Griffin

Hi Deb,

You make good points. And, I wish it were only that he lied to me about the timeline or didn't come clean on some other details. THAT I could actually live with. Yes, I do think that WS minimize their A as much as possible. I would like to think that they do so because they don't want to hurt their BS any further. But, I think that more often than not, it is to protect themselves from any additional consequences or negative fallout... for THEMSELVES.

My H was not a WS who wanted R, and who struggled with how to do it right.
No, my H did NOT want ME...and hadn't wanted me for many years apparently, I just didn't know it. He was an excellent actor and had me very fooled.
He stopped loving me during his LTA. Stopped caring about me. Stopped desiring me.
I was unimportant to him. He basically used me for all the purposes I serve...and 'needed' me because I was the prop he used to maintain his image as a good H and father...good family man. An image he could not bear to have damaged. He stayed in the M mostly to save face for himself. He also wanted to avoid the guilt of hurting our kids by breaking up the family.

I had to figure all this out by myself because he could not just come out and tell me.
Nope. He sent me mixed messages for a couple years after d-day. Threw me many bones.
But, could never sustain anything good and of substance because it was not in his heart....I was not in his heart. His heart still belonged to OW. (She ended the LTA about a year prior to d-day, so OW was not an option for my H. It was either stay with me/kids or leave and be alone.)
My H was NEVER able to reach out to me in the personal ways I needed to provide assurance and affirmation. Again, it was just not in his heart to do so. He didn't love me or want me...but was stuck with me. I couldn't see that until enough time had gone by that I could look back and let that 20/20 hindsight kick in. Then I could SEE what he was doing. Still manipulating me and taking advantage of me...using me for his purposes.

So, this is not a case of me misunderstanding his efforts or having trouble with his stumbling along while his heart was in the right place and he was trying to R....NO, this is a case of him NOT WANTING to R. And, all he did was hurt me more over and over and over because he gave me hope...false hope...strung me along. He had NO INTENTION of EVER restoring our M relationship. What he did was actually quite cruel.
It doesn't matter much anymore because I am DONE. I 'forced' myself to let him go and the M go...to emotionally detach. And, like I said previously, what remains is a very nice partnership in co-parenting our kids.

I have NO desire for a M with him.



"It's a mad mission, under difficult conditions. Not everybody makes it to the loving cup. It's a mad mission, but I got the ambition. It's a mad, mad Mission. Sign me up." -Patty Griffin

I see you as wonderfully strong and brave. To arrive at clarity must be a relief. I hope I was not offensive in my posts. Really just thinking out loud sometimes and glad I can do it without losing face. That's what is so magical about this site.

For myself, upon discovery of A, I began a terrible journey. I am sometimes thinking now that I have lost confidence in not only myself but in my H and the world. But I was over confident before and incredibly ignorant. Overly innocent.

I would not recommend this as a path to enlightenment but for some reason it is a path I am now on and I hope my H and I both grow from it.

Can't help thinking, your H's OW is leaving a path of destruction behind. Sounds like she had some fun and tired of the game w/o ever experiencing any real depth or honesty. As the OW in my case was once a dear friend, that is my focus a lot, and because my H has shared a LOT, I can see that she portrayed herself as the victim while actually being a strong pursuer. My H didn't even get half of what she twisted around until he got a woman's perspective. MADDENING. Sorry, keep getting sidetracked by her. Cannot WAIT for that to go away.

Deb

I am the poster child of all that everyone wrote concerning the BS who has given up on the marriage. I printed this off for my husband to read - who is the poster child of the Wayward Spouses depicted here. So i want to say thanks to everyone who posted.

What i wanted to respond to tho is this idea that remaining in the marriage for the sake of the children - the mindset being, that if the children don't know about the A, then they won't be effected. For those who don't know, i learned 2 1/2 years ago that my husband had been unfaithful to me for the entire length of our marriage - 33 years. Our children are grown now - but they lived their lives thinking their father had always been faithful to their mother. Not so.

In learning of the affairs, it opened my eyes to a variety of truths. First - my daughter has always had a problem with lying. Now i understand where she got that compulsion. My youngest son also struggles with lying.

My h. had a variety of addictions, alcohol, being one of them. All of my children also suffer from addictions - cigarettes, heroin, just to name a few.

Like their father, both of my sons are heavily into porno and lust. Our oldest son is living with a gal but openly lusts after other women and sees nothing wrong with that.

And unfortunately, like her father -my daughter had an affair with a married man.

Please don't misunderstand, i am NOT at all trying to tell anyone to get out of their marriage, remain in their marriage or live any particular way. All i am trying to do here is to open your eyes to the fact that whether or not the children know about the affairs - they are effected by the wrong habits of their betraying parent.

Blessings!
naomi

Hi Deb,

It sounds like you and your WH are finding your way together towards R.
People are different, as are the details and circumstances of the M, A, and aftermath.

There is a tremendous amount of loss AND a tremendous amount of growth post d-day.
It is normal for EVERYTHING to change...including your perception of yourself, your H, and the world.

When I finally accepted that my H was gone and that I was alone, I realized that I needed to discover WHO I am...me, myself, alone.
I did a lot of self-analysis and self-examination.
And, actually to my surprise, I realized something I already knew all along.
I like me.
There is nothing 'wrong' with me.
I feel good about myself...WHO I am.
This is SO important. And, I am thankful that my self-discovery was a positive, reassuring thing.
Part of me has died as a result of my H's betrayal. I am NOT the same person I once was.
But, my core...the deepest, inner me...is intact and well.
NO ONE can touch that.
And, that is a beautiful thing.

So, that is the 'good news' in all this.
That good CAN come of this.
Determining and being aware of WHO you are enables you to live life more fully and with pupose and with eyes wide open.
It's a gift really.

I wish for you and your H to not only R the M, but that you each discover and learn WHO you really are. There is nothing like it in the world.

"It's a mad mission, under difficult conditions. Not everybody makes it to the loving cup. It's a mad mission, but I got the ambition. It's a mad, mad Mission. Sign me up." -Patty Griffin

Naomi,

Your story is heart-breaking.

Thank you for your insight.
It is so SAD that your kids have been negatively influenced and effected by your H's behaviors.

It is quite strange, I guess, but my H is a VERY GOOD dad to our kids, despite the ways in which he has hurt me and the mess he has made of our M.
The parents we are together...are VERY GOOD parents.
Of course, you can never 100% control what your kids are exposed to.
But, our home is good...and the example and influence there is healthy.

There really isn't much more to say about that.

I am sorry for ALL the saddness and hardship in your life.


((((((Naomi))))))

"It's a mad mission, under difficult conditions. Not everybody makes it to the loving cup. It's a mad mission, but I got the ambition. It's a mad, mad Mission. Sign me up." -Patty Griffin

Mad Mission,
That's just my point - my h. was a great father to our kids and they had wonderful childhoods.

Remember, I did not know of the affairs til 2 1/2 years ago - prior to that, we were living a wonderful life - or so i thought. What problems H. and i had, we kept from the kids. Our children are ages 31, 29, 22.

My h. was the basketball and baseball coach. He helped the kids with their homework and was there to take pictures at all the big events - birthdays, school events, prom, graduation. He was actively involved in their lives - as both of us were.

We took the kids to church, Sunday School, VBS. Family time was extremely important. Even now, with the kids knowing of the affairs - if you were to ask them about their childhoods, they would say they had wonderful childhoods & that their dad was a great dad - wouldn't trade him for the world!

That's my whole point tho. You can live this ideal life that h. and i seemed to be living, setting good examples for your children,& providing them a good home-life, but negative characteristics can somehow still be passed down to the children.

I just wanted to open people's eyes to that.

It's a mystery- i'll give you that. But it seems that it is also typical. By that i mean, aren't we all too often negatively influenced by people? For example - trust, honesty, integrity are 3 things i value most in a person - so why didn't that rub off on my children? Why did they inherit their father's negative traits instead of my positive ones?

Blessings
naomi

Naomi,

While I am no geneticist, it does seem that maybe there are traits which are, in fact, genetic.
A tendency toward addiction is likely one of them.
They say that addictions do run in families.
That children should be AWARE as they have a predisposition to it when a parent suffers from alcoholism, for example.

The lying....I cannot explain that.

However, as children get older and are more exposed to the 'world,' there are many negative influences there.
The friends they choose become a huge influence.
Life experiences teach them certain things.
The media sends bad messages as well as to what is important and should be valued in life...often the WRONG things as far as I am concerned.
Etc.

I don't know that I would make that connection...that the behaviors of your children were LEARNED somehow from your WH.
Especially, if he really was the wonderful father you say he was.
I don't know.
I am unsure about that.

When I think about the values we discuss and demonstrate in our home...honesty, respect, kindness, etc....I do not see any 'seepage' of 'messages' which would undo the good. Really, I am just not seeing it.
I do see how my kids are growing more independent and branching out away from the home and into the world. And, I can clearly see how the messages there could influence them.



"It's a mad mission, under difficult conditions. Not everybody makes it to the loving cup. It's a mad mission, but I got the ambition. It's a mad, mad Mission. Sign me up." -Patty Griffin

I think we are in a new age where technology plays a pretty big role in our development. It's so new that the results are "not in". But I think I see affects in my kids and in their friends.
One example. We had no commercial tv. Weren't hooked up but had rented movies. Also managed to never purchase an x-box. It wasn't easy!
Now my (5!) kids are ages 12-22. This summer a friend lent them a few seasons of "FRIENDS" dvds.
I think they are super funny and entertaining. BUT, the messages about sexuality are constant and casual. After not watching commercial tv for so long maybe I'm ignorant and over sensitive but I'm sitting there w/my 12 year old son and suddenly I'm feeling PRETTY UNCOMFORTABLE. Any thoughts?
Is the media raising our kids? Is sex portrayed as....what?
Deb

Deb, I so agree about the media raising our kids. I cann remember a very similar situation, sitting with one of mine while something like Friends was in the background and feeling very uncomfortable abut the message being given. Remember the movie Four Weddings and a Funeral? There was a scene that kept being shown in the previews of the lead female character talking about her sexual conquests. She got up to something like 38 different people (and she was supposed to be in her early 30s I guess). I thought it was totally the wrong message to be giving the next generation. It commodifies sex and takes out the responsibility and relationship side. And yet the controversial thing about that movie was not the message about sexual irresponsibility it gave, but the fact that Hugh Grant said the F word 10 times in the first few minutes. What sort of a society are we creating? Sex and the City, The Spy who Shagged Me, Friends, even PG rated movies have quite casual references and innuendo about sexual activity. I hate it (and did before the affair stuff). Grrrrr, don't get me going!

I stayed for about 2 years after d-day#1 with an unremorseful WS...that led to d-days #2 and #3 and 2 more years of denial and hell. After that I could no longer stay, especially since he was not willing to give up any of his addictions to save our marriage and family...he quite literally picked up teh drugs and walked out the door when presented with the choice between his drugs and his family. What was I teaching my children by staying and allowing this influence to continue? What kindof life was that for any of us? It was no life. I am sorry that my family is no longer together and my children are suffering, but I was not the one who betrayed them...he was. And like I said, it was not just the cheating but his many addictions...pot/drugs, sex, work, and who knows what else. Everything else was more important than me and the kids.

I have been told by my IC, who is also a drug/addictions counselor, that my children are prone to addiction. There are both the genetic and learned behaviors playing roles here. The more they see it the more they think it is the norm (learned behavior) and if they should "try" a drug or alcohol they have a greater chance of becoming dependent on it (genetics) than most people. In fact, all of my ex-h's siblings have battled addictions...my ex-H is the only one who has never actually "battled" it...meaning he has no desire to stop...the addictions are out of control. If/when he hits his bottom, only then will he seek help....losing his family did not do it. He still to this day does not see a problem with his addictions...says he goes to work every day and is finacially responsible, says it does not bother him, so what's the problem?!!! Of course it doesnt bother him...he is a selfish addict who doesnt care how it has impacted the lives around him, of those he claimed to love at one time. And the sad part is that I dont think he ever will. We were together for 24 years...and nothing has changed...how much longer do you wait and hope and stay?

~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

SoCalGal,

It was clearly in the best interest of your children to separate from your WH.
His addictions were effecting all of you in negative ways.
Plus, your kids likely had front row seats to any fights you had with your WH over the drugs, etc. Not good.

And, you know that situation was never going to improve with your WH being resistant to admitting the problem, let alone getting professional help.

Very sad for you and your kids. I hope your kids are doing OK. You are teaching them right from wrong and that drug use should never be tolerated. And, they have witnessed 1st hand the destructive power of drug addiction. Good lessons, but such a sad, hard way to learn them.

(((SoCalGal)))

My situation is quite different as my WH is a very good dad and we are good partners together in co-parenting the kids.



"It's a mad mission, under difficult conditions. Not everybody makes it to the loving cup. It's a mad mission, but I got the ambition. It's a mad, mad Mission. Sign me up." -Patty Griffin

Thank you....for me and my kids I know I did the right thing. My ex-h was never a very good dad and has no idea how to co-parent since he was never actually a parent. I have raised the kids pretty much by myself. Having said that, I dont know how I would feel if he were a good father and coparent cause I have not been in that situation. But I do beg to ask the question (cause I am not aware of your situation)...is your WS still cheating and/or doing drugs? If not, then I would consider staying for the childrens sake. But if he is still cheating/drugs then I know no matter how a good of a father he may be I couldnt stay. I would feel (and have been through it) what am I teaching my kids...he is having his cake and eating it to so he has no incentive to stop or change, and lastly, a good father does not continue to cheat/drugs because the cheating/drugs does not just affect the couple, it affects the whole family and impacts the lives of the children as well in a negative way. A good father does not knowingly harm his children, whether it is physicaly or emotionally...and an A definately harms children emotionally, so does a parent with any other addiction. In my daughters case it did turn physical...she started cutting herself. She is doing better there after 2 years with the help of a great IC. However, she is now becoming verbally abusive. My youngest has become very withdrawn and pretty much keeps to himself. He has very few friends and likes it that way, and he says very little to anyone. He is a very good kid and very bright but you can see he is in a lot of pain and he doesnt know how to express it or verbalize it. He is afraid to get attached to people. My oldest is very self destructive...cheated on his girlfriend and parties, recently moved out and lives in the apt above his dad and avoids responsibility for his actions...just like dear old dad. So, it has not been easy to say the least in any sense of the word.

~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

I am so sorry to hear that your kids have had such difficulties and seem to be still struggling. That is so sad. Heart-breaking. Based on the few details you provided, their behaviors, while they are so different, are all likely driven by the same thing: a sense of helplessness in a situation which they themselves could not control, fix, or escape from. Children find ways to cope...often in 'unhealthy' ways.

They are very lucky to have YOU...a parent who cares so much about them. I have heard this somewhere a long time ago, and it is true: children need just ONE person in their lives...a person who is their 'rock'...who is always there...never abandoning them...who values them...cares...etc. And, as long as they have that ONE person...they will be OK.

For me, that was my dad. He was my 'rock' as I grew up with a mentally ill mother (and brother.) My dad was 'normal'...stable...interacted with me enough to convey love and care. He was rational. He saved me really.
Your kids may not be giving you feedback right now about this, but someday they may be able to articulate WHAT you meant to them throughout their childhoods. And, as they become adults, they will hopefully be able to shake off the final residue of the hard times, and emerge mature, solid, happy adults.

My H is not in an A, as far as I know. Nor does he use drugs. He has been a very good H in 'dutiful' ways..ie, works hard, does a lot of work around the house inside and out, etc. We are actually very good together, but there is no marriage relationship. He has zero interest in any kind of emotional/physical intimacy with me. I eventually accepted this...and realized that my M was over. I thoroughly considered D and, in an attempt to prepare for it's effects on my kids, I discovered that it is in their best interest to keep the M together as long as there is no tension, fighting, etc in the home. Well, that is us. We get along very well...always have. Much like you, I was determined to do what is 'right' for my kids with THEIR best interest in mind. So, I decided to stay in the M since H and I are such good parents together, have good family dynamics, etc. So, here I am, and have been for nearly 5 yrs since d-day. This is not exactly what I had hoped for...which was a fully restored M. But, it's not all bad. There is much good.


"It's a mad mission, under difficult conditions. Not everybody makes it to the loving cup. It's a mad mission, but I got the ambition. It's a mad, mad Mission. Sign me up." -Patty Griffin