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Reverso Grande Reserve/Date and History of JLC 8-Day movements.

April 27 2003 at 8:07 AM

  (Login TJN)

(A) HISTORY

Jaeger-LeCoultre launched the 8 Day Septantieme (the predecessor of this year's Reverso
Grande Date and Reverso Grande Reserve) in 2002. Not many know that this was a long overdue
and perfectly natural move. The little known fact is that JLC has been producing wristwatch
size 8 days movements since 1919!


(The Platinum Septantieme, first implementation of the new 8-day movement)

Written records and physical stocks from one of the most complete archives in the industry
indicate that JLC has manufactured the following complete and working 8-day movements:

- 1919 Jaeger-LeCoultre pocket watch used JLC 8 day Calibre 144 which is only 38.35mm in
diameter, perfectly usable for a wristwatch.


(1919 Calibre 144 eight day movement, dial side view)


(1919 calibre 144 eight day movement, back view)

- 1928 8-day Calibre 134 was an alarm watch movement of only 27.07mm in diameter, archive
indicated that it was first tested in 23rd. July 1928.


(JLC 1928 Calibre 134 8-Day Alarm movement)


(Details for 1928 calibre 134, scanned from original MJLC archives, dated 23rd. July 1928)

- There was written record of a JLC 29.33mm diameter 8 day Minute Repeater JLC
movements in 1929.

- 1931 Rectangular 8 day calibre 124 measures only 27.07mm x 20.30mm with Double Barrels.


(The 1931 Calibre 124 with 2 barrels 8-day movement, only 20.30mm x 27.07mm in size)



(Original archive, line 2 was the, 8 day minute repeater dated 5.12.29, note other
records of 8 day movements on the same sheet)


(B) DEVELOPMENT OF THE NEW 8-DAY MOVEMENTS:

When Philippe Vandel (Design Engineer), and Janek Deleskiewicz (Chief Designer) decided
to revive the 8 day movements in 1997, they knew that "8-days" is not an innovation
in itself. They wanted to do it in an exceptional way:

- Janek initial design drawing was a challenge for Philippe, with a big date, power reserve
day-night indicator and other complications.

- With the eight day power reserve, the barrels must accumulate 4 times more energy
than a classic movement. Philippe soon found out that he needs at least 4 times the
volume to create this movement. The case size issues were thrown about within
Philippe, Janek and the case production department, and they finally decided on the
current XGT size, which was smaller than what Philippe initially wanted.


(Philippe Vandel, Design Engineer, watchmaker Extraordinaire, probably the most
fashionable watchmaker in MJLC)

- Since Philippe wanted a 4 hertz (28,800vph) movement, the volume problem was only
solved when MJLC developed thinner springs for the 2 barrels thus fitting the XGT size
rectangular case (Rectangular design does put more constraint in terms of effective use of
space) In fact the movement has a power reserve of 9 days, with accuracy up to 8 days in
4 Hertz.


(Double Barrels Diagram)


- Philippe decided to build the new movements based on studies done on the 1931 Calibre 124.
However Philippe found that the synchronisation between the 2 barrels of Calibre 124 was not
steady and did not allow an accurate Power Reserve Indicator. Philippe finally solved the
problem quite simply and ingeniously, but not before a lot of hard work and trials & errors.


(Initial Version of Indicator, inconsistent Power Reserve indication)


(Final Version of Indicator, problem solved)


(Chart showing the differences)


- In 2001, MJLC invented their second large date device and made a patent request under the
number 01122867.3. In this simplified system as compared to the one used by Lange (patent
number 4127825), there is no "program wheel" which regulated the disc of "unit" and the disc of
"ten". The most significant improvement, due to Philippe, is the design of the dents of the tens
disc outside of the units one. This innovation enabled JLC to use a thinner disc. At the same
time it is more suitable for a rectangular movement than the old big date.


(Jaeger Le-Coultre Reverso Grande Date)

- The original design lacked the specific JLC "look". Shape and movement layout were
re-designed several times before the plates, bridges, balance cock and the collet "looked" right
to the team.


(Only 4 of the many changes before the final movement layout decision)

- Movement decoration of this 8 day movement has to be the best possible, not only the 18ct
white gold calibre 879 in Septantieme, but also the calibre 875 in Reverso Grande Date and the
calibre 874 Reverso Grande Reserve.


(Exploding View of Reverso Grande Reserve movement, impressive!)

- Between countless collaboration between Philippe, Janek and the whole development team
led by Stefan Belmont (Marketing and Product Manager), the computer design work, the
prototyping, testing and finally the process takes almost 3 years. and 5 years till the actual launch



(C) 2003 REVERSO GRANDE DATE AND REVERSO GRANDE RESERVE

The two new Grande Reversos are the new accessible updates of the Septantieme but lacks
the following Septantieme features:
- 18 ct gold movement.
- No Swan Neck regulator
- Engraving is not ink finished
- Sapphire glass not antiglare
- Not limited edition
- No Ruthenium dial


(Reverso Grande Date, Sapphire case-back view)

However, both models are very high in quality and I am truly fond of the guilloche white dial.
The Grande Date looks more majestic with the Big Date and the Power Reserve. The Grande
Reserve impresses me more due to its very basic aesthetic, an understated watch which
you can wear anywhere without attracting a second glance, until you turn over the case
and voila! A unique patented Jumping Power Reserve Indicator showing the remaining days
you can go without winding. The beauty of the movement is ONLY visible through the Grande
Date sapphire case-back though. The temptation to buy both watches becomes unbearable
In fact, the "understated" design was intentional and at least one internal JLC documents
called it, The Purists' watch


(Janek can play sax like a professional, this is a photo of an actual performance)

While some may complain that one does not know when the Jumping Power Reserve will
"jump", the thrill of seeing the "number" jumping from 0 to 1...8 and finally "UP" is
sufficiently exciting to me.


(Jumping Power Reserve mechanism)

Turn the crown and observe the power reserve "aperture". When the winding is complete, the
"UP" indication is reached. The latter is visible for around 3 hours and then jumps to the figure
"8" which indicates that the autonomy of the watch amounts to 8 complete days. After
24 hours, the aperture jumps to the figure "7" and so on until the figure "1" and finally "0". The
two last figures are red, so as to draw attention to the fact that the power-reserve is nearing
its end.


(Reverso Grande Reserve, How the Jumping Power Reserve mechanism work)

The barrels are without buffer or locking-point, but a slipping spring which absorbs excess
winding. This will avoid forcing the winding train.

Another of my favourite features is that it takes only 50 turns to fully wind both models,
very close to the normal 45 hours watches.


(Part of the Grande Reverso initial redesign, moving the bezel-screws outside the gaskets for more
space)

JLC also has the foresight to intentionally design both calibres so that the Double barrel does
not cover the centre of the movement, thus enabling JLC to plan added integrated double-sided
complications in the future.


(Exploding view of Reverso Grande Date movement, amazing!)

JLC has priced both models affordably, something fans like us appreciate but will certainly
annoy competitors.

Jaw



 
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AuthorReply


(Login TJN)

A photo of Reverso Grande Reserve...

April 27 2003, 11:18 AM 

Unfortunately, I left this nice photo out in the original message.


(Reverso Grande Reserve, Classic and understated watch for the purists)

 
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(no login)

That seconds subdial looks very poor to me...

April 27 2003, 12:47 PM 

...compared to the earlier designs.



I wonder how came the idea to use Times Roman on the new dials, a typeface designed for newspapers, base font in Windows... Sigh...

 
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(no login)

Wait for the real watch..

April 27 2003, 2:56 PM 

I think you will like it...

 
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Travis
(no login)

I was having absolutely the same question....

April 27 2003, 3:40 PM 

...but I'm starting to suspect that this subdial is just a "draft"...promising

Rgrdz,

Travis

 
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(Login TJN)

More photos of Reverso Grande Reserve/Date

April 28 2003, 1:54 AM 

Here are my amateur shots:


(Reverso Grande Reserve, Dial view)


(Reverso Grande Reserve, Sapphire case-back view)


(Reverso Grande Date, Dial view)


(Reverso Grande Date, Sapphire case-back view)

I believe both watches look better in the flesh than the photos...

Jaw

 
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vlim
(no login)

Watches do look better in person (IMHO)...

April 28 2003, 4:48 AM 

Having been given the opportunity to view both watches at the recent JLC PuristS dinner in S’pore.

Jaw, many thanks for the wealth of info and the beautiful pictures (especially of the movements).

Both watches are very very tempting (useful complication(s) + attractive price)… though I felt that the case size was a little bit big when strapped onto my small 15mm wrist. Maybe I’m just not use to the size yet (I hope ).

I also like the feel of the crown… it has a better grip than the regular GT that I have.

Best Regards,
Vernon

 
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(no login)

Times Roman is Times Roman, nothing helps....

April 28 2003, 1:16 PM 

Same for the omitted second markers. They ruined the nice detailed Art Deco design (imho of course).

 
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(Login TJN)

There is a reason why Times New Roman is so popular.

April 28 2003, 8:48 PM 

It goes easy on the eyes...

 
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(no login)

Sure, it's fine for long text in newspapers... :^)

April 28 2003, 11:30 PM 

But WTH it's on an Art Deco watch dial? It's not legibility question but stylistic.

Anyways I'm afraid we won't agree on this :^) Probably I'm oversensitive such things 'cos I'm typographer and fontdesigner...

 
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(Login TJN)

You are right, one man's meat

April 28 2003, 11:33 PM 

is another's poison...

Thanks for your opinion

Jaw

 
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Travis
(no login)

Do not you worry

April 29 2003, 8:10 AM 

Market rulez. The contradiction with the design concept is apparent (at least for me), and I don't think JLC will be that much concerned with the comfort of their senior customers, if that subdial annoys all other potential byers.

It just takes some commomn sense, isn't it?

Rgrdz,

Travis

 
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(Login Pyjam)

Thank you very much, Jaw.

April 27 2003, 1:45 PM 

I want one of these "Grande Date" as soon as it is available. Do you know when ? And Price ?

Best regards.

 
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(Login TJN)

Details...

April 28 2003, 2:01 AM 

Reverso Grande Date
Expected delivery date, May 2003

Recommended prices
Yellow Gold Euro 15,500.-
Stainless Steel Euro 6,800.-

Reverso Grande Reserve
Expected delivery date, November 2003

Recommended Prices
Pink Gold Euro 14,500.-
Stainless Steel Euro 14,200.- to 14,500.-

Note that worldwide prices maybe different depending on price sets by each region.

Jaw

 
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Rob
(no login)

Reverso XT Prices

April 28 2003, 3:56 AM 

Dear Jaw,

It seems strange to me the small difference in prices between Pink Gold and Stainless steel version of
Reverso Grande Reserve if compared to Reverso Grande Date.

You wrote:
"Recommended Prices
Pink Gold Euro 14,500.-
Stainless Steel Euro 14,200.- to 14,500."

Do you confirm it? If yes what is the reason?

Thank you in advance.

Kind regards

Rob

 
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Pallet Fork
(no login)

probably a typo,would think the grand reserve SS should be cheaper than the grand date(nt)

April 28 2003, 6:15 AM 

nt

 
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(Login TJN)

Re: Reverso XT Prices

April 28 2003, 9:38 AM 

THESE PRICES FOR REVERSO GRANDE RESRVE ARE WRONG:
Recommended Prices
Pink Gold Euro 14,500.-
Stainless Steel Euro 14,200.- to 14,500.-

THE RIGHT PRICES should be
Pink Gold Euro around Euro 14,500.-
Stainless Steel Euro 5,500.-

Sorry...

 
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Travis
(no login)

That's a relieve [nt]

May 2 2003, 2:36 PM 

/

 
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Pyjam
(Login Pyjam)

Hum ! Excellent news. Thank you. (nt)

April 28 2003, 5:11 AM 

~-~-~-~

 
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(Login ctouhey)

Re: Details...

April 29 2003, 9:03 PM 

The Devil is in the details...

Please, when available, post the retail prices and expected availability for the XGT Lempicka pieces. I'd like to get a deposit on record somewhere...

 
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(Login TJN)

Re Lempicka...

April 30 2003, 3:13 AM 

Although this watch is shown in SIHH 2003, it is not official launched yet.

Technically it is perfect, and it is also ready marketing wise.

There are procedural issues that may delay the launch perhaps up to end of the year?

Jaw

 
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Travis
(no login)

Great post Jaw, thank you veryyyyy much! [nt]

April 27 2003, 3:41 PM 

/

 
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(Login Lord__Arran)
Comm center

One more, how do you do it? Your expertise, reporting and photographic skill are perfect >

April 27 2003, 4:31 PM 

but where do you take the time for all this?

You are really gifted, highly efficient and proficient, but still you need time too. I think you do not sleep enough.

Heartfelt thanks for another exploit and warm regards

Lord Arran

 
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(Login TJN)

Thanks for your kind words...

April 28 2003, 2:01 AM 

I really appreciate it...

Jaw

 
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(Login Nirvair)
AP Discussion Group

I am in agreement here. It is amazing. nt

April 29 2003, 10:21 PM 

.

 
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(Login pc01)
Brand Forum Moderators

Thank you a lot! That´s so much great information!

April 27 2003, 4:55 PM 

And a beautiful JLC!
Hmm, as they even call it a PuristS' watch.... When did you say these are available?

Thank you a lot!

Greetings from germany,

Peter

 
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(Login TJN)

Delivery

April 28 2003, 2:02 AM 

Reverso Grande Date from May 2003 onwards

Reverso Grande Reserve from November 2003 onwards.

Jaw

 
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(Login Pacio)

Asking for that to my local dealer...

April 28 2003, 5:01 AM 

he stated that I have to expect my Grande Date to be delivered (in Italy) in late july (if I'm lucky) or better in september.
Don't you think there's a discrepancy in what you say and what my dealer think about?
Maybe delivery time can vary from country to country...in this case I wanna be in the "May delivery" country!!!!
Thanks and kind regards,
Pacio.

 
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(Login TJN)

Depends on your dealer...

April 28 2003, 9:28 AM 

The Manufacturer will START delivery on May 2003, quantity for first batch delivery is likely to be small but MOST regions should get them.

Jaw

 
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(Login Pacio)

Thanks for the clarification, Jaw! Much appreciated! - nt

April 28 2003, 11:52 PM 

.

 
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(no login)

JLC 8 Day Septantieme is

April 27 2003, 7:23 PM 

Very well done.

JLC 8 Day Septantieme of 2002 is a masterpiece. I find it makes perfect use, amongst too many other factors to detail here, of the Big Date. In the lower left-hand corner it is so perfectly intergrated in the dial, never seen done better. Well after all JLC designed it and owns the patent. I say this because mostly the way other brands have used the Big Date has not been to my taste. It for the most part drew too much attention, an unnecessary focus of the dial like a bullseye and was more like the usage of the big dates in free- standing (Grandfather) clocks of the past 200 years, where the size of the clock made it work. But here on this truly outstanding watch it's in perfect harmony -- let's hope that this does not change in the new incarnations of JLC Reverso 8-day movements.

By the way the 'Antoine Le Coultre' Master 8-Days of this year is also outstanding. The dial design is simply beautiful, once again a perfect harmony of the elements.

Simon

 
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(Login TJN)

I agree with you on all counts!

April 28 2003, 2:03 AM 

Master Antoine took my breath away...

The MOVEMENT quality! sigh...


 
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Pallet Fork
(no login)

Master Antoine..price and date?

April 28 2003, 6:17 AM 


Would anyone know what the list price would be for
the PT version and its delivery date?

Thanks.

 
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(Login TJN)

Master 8 days and Master Antoine...

April 28 2003, 9:34 AM 

Master Eight Days
Pink Gold
Euro 13,950.-

Master Antoine
Platinum only
Limited to 200 pieces.
(Dealers's orders have exceeded this figure considerably, delivery will be based on allocation)
Euro 28,000.-

For both models, delivery from November 2003.

Jaw

 
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Pallet Fork
(no login)

Thanks Jaw...

April 28 2003, 3:30 PM 

I was hoping the PT would be a bit lower. oh well.The RG seems like a better deal.

 
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(Login TJN)

Master Eight Days is just priced too low :-)

April 28 2003, 9:36 PM 

When you buy the Master Antoine, you are not only paying for the Platinum case and the even finer movement anglage. You also pay for the 200 limited pieces which are already "over-committed" to dealers.

Jaw

 
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Pallet Fork
(no login)

..... You are right

April 29 2003, 3:46 PM 

Have to see the real thing to decide, been burnt many times on the limited edition angle.

 
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(no login)

Yes, astute observation about the date window! nt

April 28 2003, 2:30 PM 

.

 
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(Login MThein)

Very, very impressive from a technical standpoint Jaw...

April 28 2003, 12:38 AM 

Thank you very much! Love those exploded movement illustrations.

Ming

 
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(Login TJN)

I am glad that you enjoy them, Thanks! (nt)

April 28 2003, 2:04 AM 

.

 
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Zach T
(no login)

Thks Jaw, this is really tempting....

April 28 2003, 1:35 AM 

bought my first reverso 5 yrs ago,guess it's time to add one more.Thx for the great review.

Rgds,
Zach

 
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(Login TJN)

You will notice JLC has a new finese now (nt)

April 28 2003, 2:04 AM 

....

 
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(no login)

Very impressive watches and reports

April 28 2003, 1:53 AM 

I did not realize about such a history. I think I will have to add my second JLC but I have so concern about its size. I have not seen the watch but I think it will be a huge watch.

 
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(Login TJN)

It is not a small watch, but definitely wearable! (nt)

April 28 2003, 2:04 AM 

...

 
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Travis
(no login)

Will someone pls elaborate on the RDM indicator design

April 28 2003, 7:49 AM 

It seems to me that the difference b/w the two designs is that
-In the old one the RDM indicator is driven (up) by the ratchet and (down) the teeths of the same (seems like the second) barrel
-In the new one the motion up and down comes from the axeces of different barrels

In my humble understanding of the twin barrel systems, the barrels are allways unwinding simultaneously because of the persistent contact b/w them. So how come there's a difference in the reading weather the motion is coming from one or from the other.

Any further clarification on that will be much appreciated. AFAIK, Patek is using a similar setup in their new movements.

Thank you,

Travis

 
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(Login ei8htohms)
Trading Zone

the barrels are not always unwinding the same amount

April 28 2003, 6:06 PM 

Hi Travis,

The trick to simultaneous barrels in series is that the end result (the arbor/drive-wheel of the second barrel (B let's say) turning and driving the train) can be satisfied by either:

1.) mainspring A unwinding and turning both barrels (including the arbor/drive-wheel of barrel B)

2.) mainspring B unwinding and turning its arbor/drive-wheel

or

3.) any combination thereof

This means that at different points in the unwinding of the two mainsprings various combinations of the above will be powering the train, according to a multitude of subtle variations in the amount of torque supplied by each mainspring and the amount of friction they each must overcome. The only way to get an accurate power reserve indication from this kind of set-up is to have the indicator somehow average out the rotation of both barrels, which is what the new arrangement does.

_john

 
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(Login TJN)

Great insight, thanks! (nt)

April 28 2003, 9:37 PM 

.

 
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