Wondering what people think about this. When I started CT with my horses I had great fun training them to retrieve, pick out specific objects etc.
But once they could do these things I started to think - what am I really aiming for here? I was begining to feel that we were just doing party tricks for the sake of them. My horses were willingly giving me the behaviours I asked for, but there wasn't much point to the exercises apart from showing how clever we were, and also I felt that I was taking advantage of my horses' wilingness to learn by asking them to do things that had no real use and were not very dignified for such a beautiful and accepting animal.
Decided in the end to stick to training things with a purpose (outside just doing them!), like lateral movements, carrot stretches etc.
Interested in other people's experiences/thoughts on this.
I encountered the same sort of thing when I first started with CT. The horse I had at the time was very easy to handle and had no vices, yet was still a definite personality. I did some basic target work with him, but then couldn't think of anything else that I needed or wanted to teach him so we never progressed any further. A definite 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'.
Since finding out more about +R, I have discovered that CT is only one small part of the overall picture. Perhaps if I had used more +R with Chance, and maybe used the CT to encourage him to think a little more, even more of his personality and his true nature would have emerged. If he had been encouraged to think for himself (via +R and CT)what more could I have learned about him? Equally, his work under saddle was always good, but if I could have increased his motivation to try for me, how much better could that have been?
Chance and I had a very good relationship even without +R, and although I didn't understand +R then, that doesn't mean to say that he spent his life being bullied/negatively reinforced or punished! However, given that we had a good relationship without +R - how much better would it have been with it?
Sorry, a bit rambly and off the point there, but hope that helps a bit
From the time I started using CT, I was clear that I wanted to use it for a purpose rather than to train 'tricks'. Amongst the things I am training with a purpose is trailer loading - something that other methods have not worked well with.
I am also re-training my ridden cues with my horse in order to refine the cues and get them as light as possible but also to increase motivation - something that was lacking with conventional training methods.
However, I have also taught my horse, touch, piroette (sp), Back up, Spanish Walk - these may be seen as tricks by some but to me they can be taken into other situations. Some tricks may seem pointless, but many can help to supple your horse and increase confidence and trust.
Everything seems to be going well so far with my CT training, but I do put it down to writing a plan for the bhrs I am training and keeping a diary of all the training sessions we do.
I agree with Marie. I too thought CT was a bit 'circus' at first but now its fun for me and the horses! There is no 'purpose'to crosswords but they sure keep the mind growing and stimulated! The only concern I have now is that CT is sooo powerful that it could be misunderstood and if the bigger picture isn't looked at people could train horses to 'accept' things they shouldn't that could cause them injury but that's a whole different ball game.
Asking horses to 'play' is + reinforcement in itself so toy boxes, fetch etc can only enhance their lives in my opinion.
This worries me too and is why I stopped mentioning CT itself on the IHDG and stuck to talking about the broader area of learning and behaviour.
I've noticed on that group that a lot of people are now listing CT along with Parelli, IH, etc as though it's another quick-fix commercial method of training which can be mixed and match with the others. Scary.
I also couldn't see the point in using CT to train "tricks", with the exception of a basic target so as to teach the animal what the click meant. But now, as Sam said, every CT exercise is encouraging the horse to think for itself instead of being told what to do all the time. So from that perspective it is almost always useful (well, assuming the training is good!). That's why it can be a good idea to not put behaviours on cue too early as that could stop the horse thinking through the problem and will just go back to doing as it is told.
I don't really have a problem with teaching a horse to bow or bash a drum. If training with pure CT then it is entirely the horse's choice to do these things and it can wander off and eat grass at any time. From the horse's perspective, I don't see there as being any difference between a bow and a half-pass. So then it comes down to whether we want our horses to be able to bow or half-pass.
But I do have a problem with the type of CT work which trains horses to go too far towards pleasing the trainer. My horse will sometimes bite me when I put his saddle on and I know I could use the clicker to stop him doing that. But if there is a problem with the saddle I would rather he told me and so I give him the benefit of the doubt (and get the necessary saddle/back checks, obviously!). Likewise some people will train the horse to touch a target for a long time while they rustle plastic sheeting etc behind it. I don't like that - I can see why it would be useful but there's something inside me which says it is unethical.
G - I was interested to see that you have used CT to do carrot stretches. I have had to do that recently as suggested by the back lady. But I find Jak struggles a little with the concept of "bribery" (well, at least he did with me training him - I'm not for a minute saying it was his fault!!) when as far as he was concerned he had done the behaviour and had already earned the treat. I'd be interested to hear how you get/got on
I agree with Millie that CT seems to be becoming the 'latest thing'. It's worrying that people who's training methods are primarily -R based are starting to mix CT in along with everything else.
I know what the others mean about teaching 'tricks'. It's not something I would choose to do in my present circumstances. However if, like Fiona, I had a retired horse who needed to be kept occupied I would consider teaching some 'fun' behaviours.
I also think CT is very valuable when teaching completely new behaviours, or (only in special circumstances) controlling behaviours - as an example:
I took my horse along to a CT workshop, she was one of only 2 horses there. When the other horse was taken down to the paddock (they were still in sight of each other) Mali got very distressed, calling out and running round the stable. It did occur to me that if she got much more upset there was a risk of her trying to come over the stable door. I wondered briefly whether using the clicker was the right thing to do in the circumstances, but quickly decided that calming her down had to be my first priority.
As soon as she had all four feet on the floor and still, and she wasn't calling, I clicked and treated. My original thought was that using the clicker would help her to re-engage her brain, but then it dawned on me that in addition to distracting her, I could also start to shape her behaviour. It didn't take too long before I was able to join the other participants for a few minutes at a time (between clicking and treating)while Mali stayed quiet and much calmer. I ended the first session after we had worked up to 3 minutes (I timed it!) and her jackpot was to be brought out of the stable (nearer to the other horse) and allowed to graze on the lead rope.
We did a short session each time the other horse was taken out of the stable. By the second day of the workshop we had worked up to 15 minute intervals. When we went back to do a one day workshop some weeks later, although I clicked and treated at odd intervals, I probably didn't need to c/t her behaviour at all, I suspect she would have stayed calm and quiet without it.
I can't think of any other training method that would have enabled me to deal with this situation so effectively, yet without upsetting the horse further.
Interesting replies. I agree that the horse always has a choice to go and eat grass, but I think there are a lot of things a horse will do with a treat in prospect which do not honour the horse as a horse.
I'm afraid I cringe when people talk about horses painting and playing instruments - it seems to me the horse is just doing something that he has been trained to expect +R for, it's nice to imagine that the horse is expressing himself but I really think that's human projection on our part - I don't think the horse is thinking anything other than "if I do this I'll get a treat/positive consequence".
For me, training some dressage movements is at least honouring the beauty of the horse in movement and I feel it's in keeping with their dignity. I think we have a duty to respect the horse by training things that honour a horse as a horse.
Hi G - a few months ago, I would have agreed with you about the dignity and honour side of things, but I was challenged on this and the challenge made me think that I was seeing things with a human perception. If the horse is given free choice and is willing to play seemingly useless games, learn circus tricks, etc, why should we worry?
As Sam said, for a retired or resting horse, these tricks and games are the difference between mind-numbing boredom (which can often lead to depression and subsequent health issues) and the horse feeling it has some sort of purpose so that some quality of life is retained.
Hmm, this is a difficult one - what is natural behaviour?? Riding isn't "natural" neither is driving. Dressage - well again some would not agree that is "natural" behaviour. Personnally I wouldn't teach a horse to play an instrument (can't imagine them playing a violin or being on Top of the Pops) but unfortunately someone is always going to carry things too far. Teaching a horse to "play" with a ball - they "object play" as part of natural play patterns. Putting front feet onto a raised board - anyone who has seen wild welsh ponies would agree that is a natural behaviour of putting front feet onto rocks.(Our section D loves doing this!) Teaching a horse to stand still (which is something all ridden horses should be able to do) is not a natural behaviour for them, unless drowsing. (Timing our horses in the field one day the longest they stood still was 20 secs.) To me the guiding rule is not to teach them something which is potentially dangerous (either to them or me) or which I feel is not ethically correct. Hope this makes sense!
Would be interesting to hear more about the challenge that changed your mind, Millie.
I think my issue is that they don't have free choice, because they are only interested in the positive consequence. That allows you to train them to do even ridiculous things which are more for us than them, they don't have the ability to discriminate so I think if we are going to be ethical about this, with a bottom line of respecting horses as horses, we need to do it for them.
With a resting or retired horse, there are plenty of behaviours to train in order to keep them alert and motivated, which are still ethically in keeping with letting them be horses (eg suppleness exercises). Just because watching a horse stretch and supple while using his brain isn't as interesting for us as painting or playing drums doesn't mean we should do the latter for our entertainment (imho).
I respect what you are saying, but in a natural setting, where my horse is free in the field he will pick things up and play with them - banging them against the wall/fence/floor, throwing them around. It is simply playful behaviour. I have only been CTing my horse for 6 months yet he has shown these 'seemingly unatural' behaviours from being 6mths old. My horse has toys in his stable that he plays with, if he is playing with these would you say he is learning how to do tricks (for example he will squeek a dog toy). I have not taught him any of this bhr yet he still shows it.
My horse will also do things for scratches (not treats), even though he is free to go off and eat grass.
Is training in an open environment less 'natural' than sitting on a horse's back? Even if they are executing 'natural' movements?
With CT if horse performs desired behaviour he gets a positive reinforcement. Surely he has a choice of a) to do desired behaviour and get a reward or b) not to do desired behaviour therefore no reward.
If he is at liberty he also has the choice of whether or not the reward is more salient than going across the field and joining his mates to graze/groom.
Surely better choice than - ve reinforcement or punishment for not performing a behaviour?
I am not really sure of what tricks you have seen people asking horses to do with CT. Could you give some examples (other that music instruments as surely this is rather extreme!) I guess it all boils down to what you consider an extension of a horses natural behaviour. Like Millie said - maybe we shouldn't look at things from our point of view. Horses probably feel pretty dam silly in tack, boots, bright rugs, plaited manes and tails, fly fringes etc etc!
Hi G, the challenge came about when I was shown a video of some behaviourists (the Breland/Baileys if I recall) who back in the 50s/60s did a tour with chickens performing tricks in small glass cages in order to show the public the results of their research into learning and behaviour. I said that I felt sorry for the chickens being stuck in the boxes performing tricks for people. Someone else pointed out that the chickens seemed willing to perform for their reward and that perhaps I was seeing things with a different perception than that of the chickens. This made me wonder about how much I was still looking at things with a human view rather than trying to think as the horse, dog, cat, chicken, etc would.
Whether or not the animals we train with +R have totally free choice is debatable, I agree. After all, +R does seem to be a form of manipulation - in the nicest possible way of course! Far better, though, to have them focused on the positive consequence than the negative.
That horses don't discriminate between honourable-for-horses and ridiculous things is likely to be because they don't view them as ridiculous - that is our cultural view.
I know my retired mare enjoys the games and tricks far more than she enjoys purely suppling exercises. So I believe what I do is for her. That I get enjoyment from watching her is a bonus - and keeps the atmosphere light too which she appreciates.
I agree that we must be ethical in our training, but we must also think about our perceptions too and be careful not to assume our views are theirs.
I was having a conversation about this the other day saying that I had stopped doing ct with my dogs for a while cause I didnt see the point of just teaching tricks as they didnt really need to learn anything 'training' wise. However after starting again recently I've realised how much closer it brings you to your animal.Instead of them just being one of the gang in the house I feel as though I'm really having ' quality time' ( sorry , I hate that phrase) with them, almost like having an indepth conversation with them.How many of us has a conversation like this-it doesnt happen often ,but when you do you come away feeling totally refreshed and as though you have had something important to say and been listened too.Well perhaps thats how our animals feels after Ct work!
As most as you know I dont currently have a horse to be doing Ct with but when I do I can only think that doing Ct of any kind will help us develop a deeper bond and understanding.
I do believe that there has to be a healthy balance and a sense of responsibilty however.Tricks taught to the horses IMHO are fine as long as the horse isn't being compromised.I.e taught to do Piaffe with CT when it isnt physically capable of doing it.
Just think how much time most people actually truelly spend WITH their horse,okay they may be at the yard for hours but alot of that consists of mucking out ,chatting to friends,claeaning tack( well not much of that) ect.Anything where we spend time totally devoted and concentrating on our horse and his/her reactions and needs surely must be a good thing.
Balance and Integrity is whats needed I reckon.
on the subject of what behaviours horses should be trained to do i recently read about a horse in the us who was trained to jump eight feet into water from a platform for a food reward. this was done at a theme park for public entertainment the horse has a good quality of life i:e turned out with company and lots of hay.but should he do this act. i personnely would not train a horse to do it but feel that the horse has a better live than many conventinly used/trained and managed horses. i'd like to know others opions on this.
Without actually seeing how the this was trained or how the 'trick' is executed, it is hard for me to accept this to be fair or not. If the horse was trained gradually using only +ve techniques and ultimately given the choice to carry out the task or not, then you could speculate that the horse is doing it of it's own choice, however if the horse has somehow been forced into doing this trick by using scare tactics or even taking the horses choice away from the situation, I would severely question the ethical issues surrounding this 'trick'.
I personally don't feel right about the horse jumping 8foot into water to get a treat and it is not something I would want to train in my horse - for me that suggests +R is being used in an abusive way. However looking at it from a different point of view, in the wild, would horses not jump off riverbanks and swim through fast flowing water to get to pastures new on the other side? It could be argued that it is a similar situation.
On the subject of tricks, since this thread went up I broke my leg and have been on crutches for 4months. However, I have still been able to work with my horse (to a lesser extent) and keep his mind active by training 'tricks'. If I had not have found CT when I did, I would have been at a loss as to what to do with him to keep him occupied because I am so limited in what I can do with him. I know there is mixed feeling about training such things, but I really appreciate the value in being able to work in this way with my horse more than ever now
Like Marie I have mixed feelings about this and its difficult to comment without knowing how the horse was trained. Sometimes I think we worry too much about teaching our horses "tricks". Our Section D is very enthusiastic about putting his two front feet on a box (circus style) - in fact at working at liberty he will often rush over to his box and stand on it. If you watch the ponies on the welsh mountains this is a very natural behaviour for them (rock instead of box!) I am sure that most of our horses would rather be taught "tricks" than clipped out, wiskers trimmed, co-ordinating rugs, travel boots and owners deciding when they eat and what they eat etc etc. Which is more demeaning for the horse?
I think it is too easy to get caught up in the pros and cons of the ‘method’ and forget the concept of +R. You don’t have to train specifics to be a positive trainer/handler/owner/rider etc. For me one of the most important elements of CT is not the method its self but the fact that is has made many people aware of their own behaviour, motivations, perceptions, attitudes and decisions. CT taught correctly has been responsible for a lot of positive personal development for many people which has reflected onto their horses.
CT has caused people to talk about previously taboo subjects such as what’s really going on for horses when we use a training method. It points repeatedly to the fact human behaviour has by far the biggest impact on equine behaviour and the responsibility of the quality of an equines life, health, learning and holistic welfare sits firmly on our shoulders, as indeed it should do.
Reglier, you said you thought you were taking advantage of your horses' willingness to learn by asking them to do things that had no real use. I believe the “use” of training is human perception, the “value” in training is equine perception and there in lies one of the fundemental differences between the two perspectives.
Lastly one of the most demeaning things I think anyone can ever do to a flight animal is tie it up.
on the subject of the water jumping horse i was initial worried about how he was trained before i read that part of the article. apparently the horse is led to the ramp then is allowed to decied whether he does it or not the article did not state what the trainers response would be if he refused or if the horse has ever refused. the article was in equus magazine. there were two opposeing sides to the article with a vet saying the horse would experience pressure on his body when entering the water and saying the horse exhibited fear at the point of jump. the other view was an animal behaviourist who thought the horse was happy and relaxed about it. the magazine raised the issue of wether it was worse than expecting a horse to jump fences load on to trailers or cut out cows from a herd.they also noted horse do swim rivers or jump in if they have to . the interseting thing i found was the magazine hinted that they approved of it mainly because it was +re trained yet in the same issue advised the use or spurs on a lazy horse.
Thanks Horseyguy, you saved me looking through all my Equus mags! Marie I have an old copy of Horse Illustrated(1997)and their Editorial dept is listed at PO Box 6050 Mission Viejo, CA 92690
Emma
