I've read a couple of threads in different places recently about what boils down to the issue of trust between horse and handler. The posters had horses that they described as "spooky " or lacking in confidence. They wanted suggestions as to how to keep the horses focussed on them rather than fixated on what they were " spooking" at which was increasing adrenaline.
My thoughts were that the horses possibly didn't have enough trust in the rider and how could this be remedied.
I wondered whether desensitising horses to particular triggers was fair to the horse. An example could be walking calmly past plastic. Where the horse could be initially distressed and then eventually become unconcerned or whether the benefits of having a horse that no longer reacted outweighed the instances of distress in training.
This got me to thinking about what exercises could be suggested to build the trust between horse and rider/handler and also how clicker training could be incorporated into these exercises. I'd be inteerested in your thoughts on such exercises.
when I went for a hack on my own just after the gails we had. My mare is not the best out on her own and when she as a wee bit more energy it results in spookiness.
Anyway we went for a lovelyhack on our own and was on our way home through some woods. Didnt even think of all the high winds we had etc and got into the woods and the bridlepath just disappeared. I got lost, could nt find my way out and started babbling and crying as you do. Anyway I calmed down got off and started leading lady. She followed me everywhere and eventually I found the path back the way we came but had to wade through 2 foot of mud via a stream as I could see another way out. Bless her Lady was so nervous but followed me. Well, once on the path out again i could cut through a huge field to go around the woods. We had a nice canter round the field and back to the bridepath just on the edge of the woods as I thought we would be O.K.. Well that would have been nice. In front of us was a fallen tree 4foot high. Now I am not a confidence jumper and was losing light by this stageso couldnt really go back as it would have taken over an hour. Well I got off and jumped over the tree and with reins in my hand asked Lady to jump it. Bless her she jumped it from a stand still to be with me.
It wasnt until I was talking to Niki (friend at the yard) that I realised what Lady and I had been through and the trust she had in me. Also the only thing I could think of as to why she did it was because I had done a lot of ground work with her using the pareilli games of leading and following and the jumping with her following. Even now when I think about it I cannot believe the trust she had in me to jump that tree from a standstill. I am so proud of Lady and so proud of what we achieved that day especially as Lady is a typical mare and will only do what she ever wants to do.
So maybe by 'playing' with each other using the basic parelli games may build up a bond between you and your horse. Definately worked for me. Good luck
Since practicing +R with Crunch I noticed a huge increase in the trust he had in me (if of course I am defining it in the same way as you).
I didn't achieve this through CT but rather making the experience with me a nicer one that not (at no point did I put him under pressure during this).
I used scratches to encourage him to want to be with me (anyone who has been on a CoH course will probably know what I am talking about). Basically everytime he even moved his eyes towards me I went over and gave him a good scratch (until his lip curled!) then I would move away. He obviously wanted me to scratch him again and so looked at me by turning his head - hey presto he got a good scratch. I just worked on this until he was following me around (ignoring the grass) begging me for more.
So what has this got with trust? Shortly after doing this with him, we had our trust put to the test. On this one day there was a muck spreader parked at the side of the paddock. Just as someone was coming up the drive from a ride the farmer came out and started up the tractor right next to Crunch. The horse coming back from the ride was doing it's nut because of the tractor and Crunchie would normally to. Now considering my horse had no head collar on or any other restraint and normally he would have freeked at the tractor and charged around when he saw the other horse jumping around - he just stood right next to me as quite as a lamb!
On another occasion, we where playing in the paddock (CTing at the time) when Crunch got very push for treats. In an attempt to diffuse the situation I tried to walk off, at which point Crunch grabed my coat and pulled me back. Now, I am not proud of this but I turned around and smacked him on the nose, he took one look at me as if to say "you cow" and went and stood in the corner of the school. He refused to look at me and definately would not come back to me. I tried to make up with him by using the scratches - it took me about a week to get him following me around again.
Both of these situations demonstrated a) how powerfully and easily trust can be built up by using +R and b) how easily it can be broken down if we take advantage of it.
I know it's not exactly CT but it might give you some food for throught!
I don't think trust between horse and human is something that can be taught to the horse as such. The training needs to be done by the human on him/herself in order to be someone with the right qualities for the horse to able to trust. The ability to win the trust of the horse has to come from within the human.
I believe the trust has to go from human to horse before it can happen the other way around.
Those with spooky, nappy horses who lack confidence are often lacking confidence themselves (I've been there myself!). In these cases, it seems the horse is actually listening to the rider and acting accordingly - worried rider, worried horse. The horse then gets blamed for not doing what the rider would wish, but where is the effort on the part of the rider to be the right person for the horse?
No amount of desensitising or method training can bring your horse to trust you when the chips are down if you are not a calm, kind and positive person around your horse at all times.
I don't believe we can be equine leaders, as we are not equines, but we can display leadership qualities that the horse can learn to have faith in.
given by the different responses and illustrations. I understand the link between behaviour of horse and rider and qualities of leadership. Also the fact that consisitent handling is very important.
To build the relationship the horse and rider would need to share experiences together. So I was thinking more of suggestions that I could pass on for exercises to establish a bond of trust.
Layla re the parelli games. If handlers were aware of the 7 games - what exercises would you set up to build the trust and offer a variety of circumstances?
"To build the relationship the horse and rider would need to share experiences together. So I was thinking more of suggestions that I could pass on for exercises to establish a bond of trust."
I've seen horsemen/women who have the trust of horses at the very first meeting of the two. As they cannot have shared experiences together and have no 'relationship', I believe it's because the horseman gives off the 'signals' which tell the horse this is a calm, kind and positive person. Please note that I'm not referring to trainers who have put the horse through a series of methodical steps to 'gain trust'.
Of course, the majority of us who handle horses don't have such a refined ability to reassure the horse (how I wish!), so developing a relationship through training and daily handling are important in gaining trust, but to have the horse really trust you when you need him/her to comes down to that innate ability (as mentioned by Emma - see VSR thread) within the human.
It is no good trying to teach the exercises to someone, if first they do not trust the horse or they are a nervous person for instance. Horses, being very sensitive animals will pick up on the smallest of signals from a person.
One thing I do when working with nervous riders (or any riders for that matter) is to get them to breath proparly and shut out the thoughts of the past and future (Joni Bentley talks about pulling blinds down behind the eyes so that you can only see the present) - I encourage them to think of that moment in time and take in the smells and sounds that are around them (it is amazing how much we block out in normal every day living). This usually slows the heart rate down and helps the person relax...usually resulting in a much more relaxed horse.
So I guess what I am trying to say is, we need to look at the combination of the horse and handler to see what is happening as a whole before we take it upon ourselves to try to modify just the horse.
You can't necessarily learn exercises that will establish trust but it is the general empathy that surrounds you when you work with horses. There are horseman who give off trusting vibes to horses immediately. I only wish I were like that. I also feel sorry for those who are on full livery who only have a couple or so days a week with their horse with someone else feeding and generally looking after it. It must be doubly difficult for them to gain the total trust of their horse, particularly if they only ever come to ride it rather than generally play and try to communicate with it. If that's the case then I think you have to rely on someone else having done the ground work properly previously for the horse to think you are an OK human. I have found it far more rewarding to do everything myself, even if it cuts down riding time, than when I was in full livery when all I did was groom and ride.
I read this question last night, and have been thinking about it on and off since then. I have come to the conclusion that, as the others have said, there don't seem to be exercises that can build trust. I think it only develops from being around your horse, and always being consistent.
If I look at it from the other way round, when we first got Mali I didn't trust her at all. (Those of you that have seen her faces will understand why!) Although I tried to be calm around her, I always was 'keeping an eye out' for things she might do. Inevitably this made it harder for her to relax, because she was picking up on my tension. Having owned her for nearly 2 years, I trust her - and our relationship with each other - much more.
About a year after we got her, she kicked out at me while I was changing her rug. She wasn't intending to 'get' me, but it shocked me just the same. It took me a long while to start to trust her after that. However, we started working with +R and things have been improving all the time, with trust developing on both sides. About 3 weeks ago, I asked her to move over in the stable and she threw out a hind leg (she wanted to eat her hay net, and I was asking her to do something else). It made me jump, but it hasn't affected my trust in her. If it has taken me this long to learn to trust Mali (and I'm supposed to be the 'smart' one!) I am not surprised that she is still only beginning to trust me after her past experiences.
Damn, lost the point again Good question Louise, would be a good one to bring up at the workshop.
My thoughts would be that trust is something that "happens" with horse and owner, and I also think it is upto to the owner to assess the horse and think about what is right for them to ask the horse to do at this moment in time, as overfacing them can cause a huge problem, and it takes a long long time to rebuild trust.
I'd agree that nervous rider is likely to = nervous horse. I also agree that it's the spending time (and touching) each other that builds trust. However, as a complete novice faced with a horse to myself for the first time ever last summer, I found the suggestions of things to do with a horse in the foundation exercises of (dare I say it?) Kelly Marks' Perfect Manners were a great help. I didn't do them all the time, and didn't do them very well when I did, but they gave me something to do with Willow beyond feeding and grooming. It was before I'd heard of +Re - the reward was just a stroke and the 'punishment' was a few steps back - as in Michael Peace. (I also did TTouch very badly too, but Willow liked being stroked and didn't mind.)
Kate
I'm probably going to repeat what alot of people have already said and if I do it's because I agree with you, but it takes so long to mention points and names etc and I haven't time! Suffice to say there have been lots of really good points made and I just want to add my own in case anyone found it useful!!!
First of all: ethology i.e. natural behaviour of horse. As we all know horses are VERY tuned in to visual cues as one of the main ways in which they communicate with one another (as far as we are aware) is body language. I agree that this is why some people have an instant natural rapport with a new horse. Having had over 30 Alexander lessons i have become hugely aware of my body and what I do with it, and now I am starting to have Alexander on horseback lessons with Geri I have been really impressed at how sensitive she is to the slightest tension through my back and seat. However it is not just confined to riding her- she is really really quick at picking up on my state just from looking at me. I suppose this is were the Parelli energy up and down thing comes in, or Reiki.... I'm no expert on either of these, but it makes sense that if you are aware of your body and tension etc then changing it should influence how your horse and other people react to you. I've found that other people also influence me and how I feel greatly, but am learning to not react to their tension.
Secondly learning theory. Think about what makes you trust a person you know: in my humble opinion, i trust people that are always consistent in their reactions, that are honest, kind, gentle....
When we begin training using clicker training or any other form of positive reinforcement, we tend to 1. learn alot about learning theory and how punishment/-ve r affect our horses; 2. stop using said punishment/ -ve R; 3. become much more consistent in how we react because we have a better understanding of what the horse learns about those reactions.
the other thing that happens when we begin clicker training is that we immediately become much nicer for the horse to be around because we are continually +vely reinforcing our presence!! Think of how you build up the conditioning of clicker and food.....well the horse associates US with clicker training through classical conditioning.
So as far as the horses are concerned, if we are aware of our own bodies and what we do with them, and if we are training through +ve R, we have immediately become consistent, kind, gentle, rewarding people to spend time with- what better way to build trust?
So Marie I know it's taken me a while to get to the point but I reckon as far as trust building exercises go you need to start with yourself and an understanding of learning theory and learn to be aware of your body posture through something like Alexander or yoga or something and then take that to the horse and start being a good person to be around! I know you have all probably arrived at this conclusion already, just couldn't resist adding my own interpretation!
All the best,
helenxx
Thanks for the input Helen. I posed the question after reading a number of threads on other forums and becasue one of my new contacts has started having some problems after owning her first horse for about 7/8 months. I know quick fixes aren't the answer but the person I have in mind is beginning to lose their confidence on teh ground as well as in the saddle and this will affect how they behave and react.
I spent a lot of time, 2/3 months just doing ground work and being woth my mare when I first bought her. Mainly becasue of F&M but partly because I wanted to get to know her and decided I had many years or riding ahead. I think my approach was very beneficial for my mare whose confidence had increased tremendously in the time I have had her. For me riding; although I enjoy it a lot; isn't the be all and end all for me. However, not everyone would feel that this was an approach they wanted to adopt hence me asking the question.
I know how +ve handling and training would result in trust but then that may still be using CT as a tool rather than getting to the thought processes behind it. But if people being overall more +ve in their approach to horsehandling then would this necessarily matter ? If the person got out of this spiral then I think that their ability ( and their horses ) to learn and discover more together would increase IMO
Just to follow on to what's already been said (and speaking as a fairly nervous type of person) I do think that building trust between horse and handler is helped dramatically by the handler's viewpoint. I am going through a bit of a sticky patch with Mali at the moment, having changed yards, and I have to keep reminding myself that there are reasons for her behaviour which are perfectly valid to her. In order to maintain the progress we've made, I can't just be a +Rer when things are going my way, and then switch to -R or trying to dominate her when we get a bit off track. She isn't 'naughty', she isn't 'out to get me' (although sometimes it feels like it )in fact technically she isn't even misbehaving - for her it's only behaviour and it's my job to interpret it.
It seems for the squillionth time I've wandered off the point (sorry!)but what I'm trying to say (which might help your friend who's losing confidence, Louise)is that what's helping me at the moment is to stop looking for the 'bad' behaviour and if it does happen reminding myself that although I might not like Mali's behaviour, she's a horse not a shopping trolley and she is expressing herself in the only way available to her.
Phew lots of thoughts on this thread but first I filled up and went all gooey when I read Kate's "I did TTouch badly but Willow liked being stroked and didn't mind". What a lucky horse it made me realise the smallest things we do with our horses, if they are +ive and done with a good heart, are appreciated and our horses will respond with trust and forgiveness if we have built up a good credit in the trust bank. I'm glad my trust bank balance is in much better shape than my finacial one!
I haven't done any parelli and I'm one of those poor livery owners but Rusty and I have had each other for 23 years most of which on DIY so I think he knows who I am by now and I see him at least 5 times a week. I think one of the big trust things is our energy levels I consciously try with my horse and dog to lower my energy levels when things are getting a bit speeded up and I'm always amazed how well it works.
Another thing I think is important is the old "do as you would be done by" principle. I try to apply it with people, and with horses too, to treat them with kindness and respect so they have no reason, that you have caused, to behave "badly", and they may choose to follow your example and be kind and respectful in return.
CT and +R have definitely improved the quality of our relationship and Rusty is noticeably brighter but calmer(!) in the school and stable, he doesn't mug me so much now he knows that there is a connection between behaviour and reward (even if it's just standing calmly) but he's brighter about his "work". One of the things I always do after schooling is to take his tack off and let him roll it's a big reward for him, but the other night I knew I was going to do some clicker work after a bit of schooling so I hid the treat bag down by the school gate and did the schooling bit. Then I took his tack off and waited for him to go and roll, but he didn't, instead he gave me the attitudes he gives when he knows we're going to do CT, so after 20 mins schooling he was still aware that I had hidden the treat bag when we first came in the school, and he was making it clear to me that he would rather do CT than have his beloved rolling session. Of course I obliged, and straight after he'd been jackpotted and knew we'd finished, he wandered off and had a big roll!
Good question Louise, would be a good one to bring up at the workshop.