Ok, now that I have posted such a contentious title, sorry that this will be a bit of a let-down; Size refers to size of treats!
As Jack, my horse, can get quite aggressive around food, I have been rewarding with larger treats than one nut or sliver - I am a little wary about rewarding with something small, as he tends to open his mouth really wide and grab at whatever is in your hand if he is anticipating his treat. I believe in the past he was either "tormented" with food - offered it and had it withdrawn (because of his over-eagerness?) - and/or hand-fed and subsequently smacked for taking the titbit too quickly/harshly. I really want to continue with clicker training because I believe that he really enjoys learning in this way (canters over the field shouting when he sees the clicker in my hand!). He is incredibly intelligent and has a great capacity for learning (ok, so I am biased), but I would value advice on continuing using CT/treats, bearing in mind that Jack has got aggressive tendencies. I am careful to keep sessions short as he can become progressively crosser through a session (due to the fact, I think, that food is always present and not just handed to him on a plate - he gets quite frustrated that he is unable to access the lot straightaway). I am trying to treat when he has his ears forward and a "soft" expression, rather than when his ears are flat back and he has the "give it to me NOW" expression!!
You will no doubt understand why I put a "larger than average" treat on my palm to reward with, rather than something small, but does anyone have any ideas that they could share with me that may make it easier for me not to have to jackpot each time?! And of course, any suggestions as to how/when I train would be more than welcome!
The first thing that comes to mind is, have you been rewarding him inadvertently for showing this behaviour? If so, could you not try and train him to take the treat nicely from you - a hard task I'm sure but it could be possible.
Do you treat after each click? I used treatless clicks when I first started CT but then after the VSR thread on here, I went to treating each click. When I started this my horse got very pushy for the treats. When I went back to treatless clicks he was much happier.
Also, Crunch tends to get aggressive or pushy for treats if he is confused about what he is doing. Could this be a possibility with your horse?
Another thing that may help is to ask him to back up out of your space before you hand him a treat. It might not stop him trying to take your hand of but it could keep him out of your space.
If the above is no good, how about putting the treat in a pan before handing it to him that way your hand will be safe, or maybe throw the treat on the floor?
Hi Meera, I had a similar problem with Mali when I first started CT, although from the sounds of it she wasn't so bad. Just a couple of quick thoughts that might help: Instead of feeding from your hand, what about keeping a feed bucket/scoop handy, and putting the treat into that? I know it's a bit fiddly, but if you had it nearby, you could just throw the treat into it. Same as throwing it on the floor really, I just think if you throw it into a bucket it will make it easier for Jack to find it.
Also, if Jack is a bit pushy, what about training over the stable door or from the other side of the fence for now? Then if he gets a bit aggressive you can just take a step back.
I have found that Mali has actually become calmer now about the whole thing, I've just persisted with ignoring the undesirable behaviour (whilst always keeping myself safe!). When I first started with CT, I did actually give up for a while because I was so put off by her aggressive faces. After a dabble with Parelli, which didn't suit either of us, I reverted back to CT and - more importantly - +R. She is now much better and is now never aggressive about CT. However, this is just my experience with one horse - things could be completely different with you and Jack.
I will try to make sure I am not rewarding the aggressive behaviour - thought I wasn't, but maybe I am without realising it and the pan/scoop is a brilliant idea - will save my hand at any rate! Can't use a door or fence as he gets even more aggressive with a barrier in the way; in the past before I bought him I saw him "piaffing" in anger in response to someone's teasing, whilst lunging with teeth bared over the door! In an ideal world, I would erase those memories, poor lad.
Hi Meera - I agree with what the others have said. But just to add, I was just wondering what behaviours you're training at the moment. You might find that training "chill out and do nothing" or "turn head away from treat" might help calm him down a little.
I recently heard a suggestion to help keep your space a bit more - rather than asking for a step backwards when you give the treat (which may set up a behaviour chain which could be difficult to break up later) you could try extending your hand towards his chest when you give the treat. So he has to keep further away from you in order to reach the treat, maybe he'll have to take a step backwards. But it's just subtly different and doesn't involve you using a "go back" cue which may or may not make things easier!
I started off with touching a target and then started head-lowering using the target. Have recently gone onto "standing still whilst I walk around him" and beginning to put this on cue; and to reiterate the 'being nice' behaviour have been C/T for ears pricked forward and looking away. This all works really nicely, but sometimes as soon as he performs the behaviour and I click, his ears go flat back in anticipation of receiving his treat. So I am capturing the behaviour that I want, but sometimes finding it difficult to reward it! He doesn't show his frustration all the time, by any means, but I am wary of using pressure from the ground to back him up as it seems to wind him up more, though the "backing up" principle seems like a good thing to try. He is surprisingly polite for an aggressive horse(!) - if I quietly step into his space he will automatically move backwards, sideways etc! I will try to step into his space next time he puts his ears back when I go to treat and let you know how that works.... It would be a shame not to carry on with C/T, as apart from not being able to accept his treat without making a song and dance out of it, things are going really well and I never thought I would have this sort of 'working' relationship with a horse!!
Just to update, I tried to move Jack back by stepping into his space and he wasn't very keen on this at all! Nor was he entirely happy about the hand extended to his chest. I know it is only because food is involved that he can show a degree of aggression. Perhaps what I should have done from the beginning was to "train" him for "ears forward and looking away". I'll work on establishing this more firmly over the weekend and let you know how it goes....
Hi Meera, had a couple of thoughts on Jack. Is he getting confused? Unless I have misunderstood, you seem to be asking for a few behaviours at a time (step back, look away, ears forward).
It might be worth considering not using the clicker for now and taking a more relaxed approach to rewarding him for standing quietly with his head turned slightly away from you and not searching you for treats. This will probably require the patience of a saint on your part to wait out his eagerness.
If you do want to continue with the clicker, I wouldn't rule out Sam's suggestion of having him behind a fence or stable door. I understand your concerns, but it might be worth giving him the opportunity to learn a new association between stable door and treats. You will have to wait for him to calm down before treating him, but if you can catch the slightest drop in energy you can shape from there.
You said that his ears go back as soon as you've clicked and I wondered if the clicker is held too close to his ears. Have you ever clicked a clicker close to your own ear? I think that's worth trying for everyone who uses CT as it's horrible and makes you careful not to click too close. This tends to be a mistake made more with dogs as their heads are more at the level of our hands, but thought it was worth mentioning.
Another thing to consider is your timing with the clicker. I recently underwent some clicker game activities on a CT course which were designed to fine tune timing and observation. I'd thought I was quite good, but the tests showed there was room for improvement!
Sorry that I probably didn't explain myself very well with regards Jack's aggressiveness. I definitely don't think it is clicker-linked, as the aggressiveness only comes out when the treat is about to be given. His aggressiveness really is food-connected and I'm positive it isn't linked to anything else. As for confusing him, I'm sure that I will be unintentionally confusing him with some aspects, but he is generally very easy to "read" when he doesn't understand something, so I have tried to take things slowly and pick up on one thing at a time. I'm not asking him to take a step back at the same time as looking away with ears pricked - I originally C/T "looking away with ears pricked" as it was an opportune moment - I hadn't asked for that behaviour, it just happened to be presented and so I rewarded it as I thought it may be a useful thing to try and shape (due to aggressive streak). The "step back" was tried last night when I clicked and was going to treat (and was met with ears pnned back) - I tried it twice (once by stepping into his personal space and once by extending my hand outward towards his chest). Both times he objected (ears pinned back and neck arched), so I am not going to try either of those movements again (for the time being at least). I am really not keen on trying by using a barrier such as a fence or door - this seems to wind him up the most - and it took me 3 - 6 months of gentle persuasion when I first bought him to allow me to just stroke him over the door without him wanting to take a chunk out of me! He is still very defensive/aggressive over the door towards people whom he doesn't know very well or is unsure of. Standing up to him a la IH or demonstrating any sort of "I'm not going to tolerate that sort of behaviour from you" action sends him into absolute fury and fight mode. Hence, I prefer to take the softly, softly approach - may take "years", but well worth it!
I would really like to continue with CT as I feel that, apart from the issue of accepting a treat, things are progressing fairly nicely. I feel that scratches are currently not a strong enough motivation, though with the shedding of his winter coat (and the itchyness that accompanies this), they may be soon!
I am going to try over the weekend to capture "ears pricked and looking away" and then start to put this on cue. I'll keep you posted as to how this has progressed...
Many thanks for all your suggestions - it's great to have all these ideas as to how I can improve and even better for showing the chinks in the armour
PS I think my timing with the clicker definitely has room for improvement! Sometimes, my brain says "click now" and my right hand says, "no, hang on a minute, I've got to fumble around for a bit!!"
Well done for persevering! I also wondered if maybe he was confused about something but it's obviously impossible to say without seeing. Maybe it would be best to go back to the initial behaviour you trained and get it on a high rate of reinforcement. Actually, is it worth getting it so high that he is so convinced treats are coming that he doesn't feel the need to bite. Literally shovel them into him!
Maybe someone will tell me that's a stupid idea but if you feel safe doing it then why not try! It could be that the bite is his way of saying "about bloody time too".
Whereabouts are you based?? It would be nice if there were a few of us local to each other so we can give face-to face ideas/help rather than just via computer! Please don't think of giving up the CT without some hands-on help first!
Hi Meera
Just want to echo what Catherine has said,really and also offer some moral support. Sounds like Jack is quite similar to Mali in many ways (Mali used to try and attack people over her stable door) and I can't begin to tell you how much using +R and CT has helped her.
I made the mistake of 'Joining Up' with her and then went on to try Parelli. These methods only provoked more of the aggressive/defensive behaviour I was trying to avoid and this prompted me to look for alternatives. Fortunately for us both I 'discovered' +R (with a bit of help ) and although we still have a long way to go our relationship has improved immeasurably. One of my proudest moments was seeing Mali at a recent workshop, with her head over her stable door, ears forward, while she was surrounded by strangers. Not a mean face or snap of teeth in sight
Ahh, Sam, that sounds like heaven with the gates shut! Mali sounds just like Jack over the door. I would love to see Jack surrounded by a group of people without me having my heart in my mouth that someone is going to suddenly lose an arm!! Or even worse (!) that someone will then take a swipe at him for having done so! I love him too much (almost an unhealthy obsession actually) to give up trying to soften the behaviour, so don't worry, I will persevere away. I have more or less avoided the door issue - he is out most of the time and soon will be out 24/7 - but it would be great for him to be like Mali and become chilled out over the stable door.....
I'm based in Cambridge - about 5mins from the city. Whereabouts is everyone else? Anyone near us?
Catherine, I have just been mulling over your suggestion about making treats seem so ordinary that the desire to be handfed diminishes somewhat. I think it is an excellent suggestion - I'll try this over the weekend too. If, for instance, I treat Jack with a carrot for being caught in the field, without indicating (using the clicker) that a treat is about to be dispensed, I tend not to get the aggression. I never thought of this before, so sorry for not mentioning it earlier as it now seems very valid to my original point
What made the biggest difference to Mali and our relationship was not specifically CT, but generally adopting +R as the approach to take with her. I was already part way there, but I admit it has been hard to 'let go' of some of my previously held beliefs. However, I have Mali as a reminder every day of where +R can take you (and equally what excessive -R can lead to). Once I got some help with understanding her behaviour, we both came on in leaps and bounds. What I'm getting at is are you using CT in isolation or are you generally taking a +R approach?
Sorry I didn't realise that was what you meant. CT is only a portion of the +R work I do with Crunch. Things like standing still and getting him to come to me in the field are done through +R and no clicker.
I also use +R in the stable rather than the clicker for example when I am taking rugs off and he is trying to lick my face or grab my coat, I reward him when he doesn't do these things by giving him good lip curling scratches, thus taking the focus away from simply repremanding him for his bhr.
Although I am not finding it wholey possible to work soley with +R I am trying my best to incorporated it into everything we do.
Hi again Meera, your replies seem to confirm what I've been thinking. Looking away with ears pricked could be viewed as two behaviours. It would be easier to train them separately and then put them together.
You said: "The 'step back' was tried last night when I clicked and was going to treat (and was met with ears pinned back)." Did you treat or withhold it because his ears went back?
If you are worried about training him over the stable door, would he be better behind an electric fence (not switched on)?
I agree that you shouldn't be trying to dominate him, but a too soft approach will not help either. Finding a balance between the two is a key ingredient in training any animal (and ourselves!).
Have you thought about practicing your clicker timing by doing things that don't involve Jack? You can practice on friends (a bit like the hot/cold game) and you can also practice with a ball - bounce it off the ground and click as it reaches it's highest point before coming down again. You can also click the second it hits the ground. It is very important to be spot on with your timing. If your clicker skills have not yet developed, you may be confusing Jack. As you are thinking, this might be borne out by the fact that he doesn't show 'aggression' when being caught and rewarded in the field without the use of the clicker. It's all more relaxed which is where I was coming from when made my earlier suggestion.
I hope I don't sound too negative about you. I think it's fantastic that you're thinking about all this and asking questions in order to do your best for Jack. Please take my comments as encouragement, that's how they are intended but my communication skills are sadly lacking!
Meera - just wanted to add my encouragement and to say that Dee lives out your way and I'm sure that she would be willing to give you some advice and help.
Thanks for the encouragement and advice - have emailed Dee for possible assistance. For the record, I am trying to do as much groundwork as possible via +R; the riding side of things is still quite -R based.
Just to let you know that things so far are going really well with regard the teeth problem that I had! I don't think I fully identified the reasons behind the behaviours that I was trying to deal with, but through consistent shaping of one behaviour (ears forward), we are chipping away at the nastiness problem! For nearly a month, Jack hasn't attempted once to take treats with his mouth wide open, and I am able to feed smaller treats as a result (not sure how Jack would see this!). He is just really funny now when he hears the click - he slaps his lips together in anticipation - and takes the treat so much more gently. He still gets a little grumpy when we end the session as he is so click-treat-motivated, but that is something else for me to work on at some point.
I did misunderstand CatherineB when she suggested to up the frequency of the click-treat sequence, and thought that she meant hand-feed on such a basis that to receive hand-held treats was no longer a huge novelty for Jack. Although this was technically an "oops", it did work well in that he began to take things out of my hand with less vigour than previously (the novelty factor had apparently reduced). From this, I was able to work on just achieving a "nice face" for which he would be rewarded - if he showed a "nice face" and I was quick to treat after clicking, then he didn't have the opportunity/time to put his ears back and grab the treat. It didn't take him long to cotton onto the fact that whenever he was being even remotely "demanding" I wasn't going to broach the subject of CT with him. Increasing the frequency of c/t really helped here and after about 3 to 4 days, the "nasty" behaviour had subsided to below a 10% frequency per session. For nearly a month, touch wood, I haven't had anything snatched out of my hand, with the frequency of ears back significantly reduced in general.
So thanks to everyone for all your help on my problem - there was some very constructive advice given, and alot of food for thought, which has made me think in depth about what I want to achieve and how I would start going about it.
Fantastic!!! Please continue to keep us updated as I'm sure this is a common problem that lots of people will need advice on - you will be in great demand!
Sorry to bring this up again, but it has just occurred to me how far Jack and I have progressed over the last few months and I never even thought about it until I started posting a reply on the ih site. I can't actually remember the last time I saw his ears back and that has just been the most amazing dawning I have ever experienced (I know, don't get out much, do I)
Everything has changed about him (and probably me) but it has happened so gradually that I haven't noticed anything until now. His whole demeanour has altered, he seems so chilled out and relaxed it is unbelievable. Yesterday evening in the field, I was just lazing around with the guys and Jack walked up to me and started eating closely to my feet. Every time I walked away, he just followed me and carried on eating wherever I stopped (I did this about 3 times to "test" it out(!))....
Meera - hi - very briefly 'cos I'm meant to be packing...
I'm based in Newmarket but have friends with a yard in Cambridge where I'm clicker training a mare. I'm off to the US tomorrow morning - for a week's trainign with Alex Kurland on the first ever Instructor's training course (and now it's here, other than the undiluted hell of travelling, I'm entirely looking forward to it) . With luck, I'll be able to help when I get back but the advice here is excellent.
Wonderful news petal, I am soo please for you both. We really must sort out about meeting up for that drink and let me have a cuddle with the georgeous Jak.
Its sometimes hard to remember how far we have come, if I think back just a year ago I wouldn't have believed what I have done in just a short space of time. Its hard not to take everything for granted!
Meera, I saw your post on the IHDG and while it didn't make me laugh it gave me such a warm cosy feeling that made me smile inside! So pleased for you both.
Thanks for all your lovely comments, guys; actually, you should all be praising yourselves because if it hadn't been for people questioning the ethics of what we are doing to our horses, my eyes would have never been opened to the extent they are now. Long may the questioning continue! Secondly, the stage that Jack and I are now at with our relationship is due entirely to all the wonderful suggestions I received on this site as to how I could overcome certain behaviours and focus on how to make positive behaviours so much more appealing for Jack to "perform".
As Jack cannot thank you himself, I will on his behalf.
Don't apologise for bringing this back up, it's great to hear how things are going. Sometimes it's easy to forget how far you've come in such a short time. This time last year I hadn't had a home visit or done a workshop with CoH, I hadn't read DSTD and my horse had never taken a single voluntary step towards me. I have had a complete turnaround in my thinking and I can say with complete honesty that I have changed my life. (Not as much as it's going to change when Jr arrives though!)
Keep up with the updates Meera, it's wonderful to hear that things are working for you
