I am still on the very basics of clicker training (its been on hold for a while mainly due to lack of time and imagination!).
My mare is quite a dominant aggressive sort, but pretty intelligent. I have had problems with her being very space protective and aggressive (kicking and biting) in her stable, but have overcome these quite well over the last 3 years.
However, I have decided to try +R / CT to try and get things even better. The problem I have is that she is mugging me badly. I try to ignore it, but do I have to stand my ground and ignore it or is it OK to actually move/turn away?
Also, when she isn't mugging me and actually listens, the minute she hears the click, her jaws come open and she nearly swallows my whole hand! How can I teach her to gently take her reward, because if I withhold it till she is gentle, won't that take the reward association away from the click as the time lapse will be too great?
Any suggestions would be welcome, as I am getting a bit lost!
You seem to have a similar problem to me - see thread "Is size important". There are some excellent ideas to try on there. My boy Jack does exactly the same thing - opens his mouth really wide to take the treat - but gets defensive/aggressive as well about being treated.
Timing was one issue where I definitely have alot of room for improvement, and Millie made some very good suggestions as to how I could improve my timing with CT. And concentrating on one behaviour at a time was a very valid point applicable to my case. I have been attempting to put these into practice to avoid trying to work with a frustrated horse!!
So far, when I have been CT, letting the clicker (on elastic around my right-hand wrist) fall into my hand at the point where Jack is going to take the treat. Found this out by accident and he just picked carefully around it to get the treat rather than open jaws T-Rex style! Giving the treat on a tray or lid was an excellent suggestion as well, and I have been hand-feeding Jack regularly so that it becomes second-nature to him to just accept a hand-held treat. I'm also concentrating on establishing "nice face" before C/T - something that I hadn't established well enough previously. I've found that if I definitely get "nice face" I am 90% more likely to not get T-Rex jaws!
Hope this makes sense, and really comforting to know there is someone else in the same boat!
Thank you Meera - your response made perfect sense - I too think I maybe have frustrated my mare, Minnie, a little by moving too quickly onto something else. Think I am more like my mare than I would care to admit too - impatient!!
Will read the other thread and work on your suggestions. Thanks very much - it is nice to know that my horse isn't the only Jaws around!
Yes there where quite a lot of suggestions on the other thread so I won't re-write mine here (unless you want me to )
Crunchie mugged me quite a bit at first and I did sometimes find it very hard to stand my ground with him - the good thing is 6+mths down the line he is much better, although still tries it every now and again.
Some people suggest turning and walking away, as to a clicker trained horse that is very sensitive to +R, it is punishment (technically it is punishement to any horse whether trained with -R or +R) - I think it is P- help me out someone on definitions!). However, when I tried to do this with Crunch he would block me so that I couldn't get out of the paddock!
What I did in the end, was to insist on him backing up out of my space before I gave a treat - Ok this created a bahaviour chain as he knew that he had to back away for the treat after the click, but if the click marks the desired bhr the horse should realise what he is getting rewarded for.
I hardly have to use the 'back' cue now as he generally stays out of my space to get his treat, but it's always there if he needs it.
Thanks Marie for your reply, I have read the other thread and have found everyone's suggestions very helpful - I will now go away and try again, hopefully with more success.
Meera - when I suggested upping the rate of reinforcement I meant still in response to a correct behaviour, ie minimise the time between treating and getting the behaviour again so you can treat again. I didn't just mean hand-feeding ad-lib. So sorry if I confused you - or maybe I've just misinterpreted your post above.Obviously it depends on the horse but from what you've said about Jack it's just possible that he may become indignant at having to work for treats if he gets into the habit of having them "for free".
And that's a great idea about having to pick the treat delicately away from the clicker. Will have to remember that one - thanks!
Chrissie - I won't add any more as you've now seen the other thread but good luck and hope that it helps. Feel free to come back with more questions (and we can at least try to help!). Where are you based? It always helps to have a second pair of eyes...
Ooops!!! Have misunderstood and been hand-feeding at a phenomenal rate; have to say that so far it hasn't affected any CT that I have done and surprisingly I haven't been "mugged", but thanks for pointing that out to me!!
Well, I tried a bit of CT last night and instead of tackling our problems in the stable where she is aggressive, decided to take Minnie into the sand school and just play with her there. Couldn't think of what to do, as she is non aggressive away from her stable, so couldn't work on getting "nice face", so borrowed my sister's jollyball and just asked her to target it. She took to this straight away and within a 10 minute session was moving away from me to touch it when I said touch and pointed - I was absolutely amazed!
We did have one hiccup in that (as usual) I took it one step too far too soon, and let her loose - she targeted on the ball when I asked once and then decided that the grass at the side of the arena was much more appealing (doh!!, although we did manage to salvage it and she did one more touch before we finished - lesson learned (I hope) to properly establish one behaviour and not keep pushing the goal posts out.
Mind you, once back in her stable, my friend and her dog turned up - usually Minnie is terribly aggressive towards the dog (who is incredibly well behaved) and my friend, but this time she had her ears forward and welcomed my friend into her space - my friend was gobsmacked. Minnie just wanted to keep up clicker training - she did revert a little bit once she realised that the session had finished, but not too badly, so I was really pleased. It just seemed to free her of all the grumpiness.
I thought that maybe if I could get her to target on something when I said touch and gradually work up the time she does this before I click, I could use this to get her to target on something in her stable, when I am doing something she dislikes - ie her rugs.
Hi Chrissie, a bit late for this time, but it might have been a good idea to reward Minnie for the nice behaviour she offered when your friend visited.
Millie, I did ask her for the touch behaviour once more back in her stable, because my friend wanted to give her a polo and I said she couldn't have it unless she was clicked. Mins seemed to know immediately what I wanted even though I was asking her to touch something different, so I was pleased. She took the polo nicely from my friend and was fine for a little while, but then got all grumpy again.
The problem I have is ending the session - she gets aggressive again. This is something she has done in the past when having a treat in the field on being caught. She will be all sweetness and light for the treat and then once she realises there is no more, will put her ears flat back and gets all "snarly". I deal with this by just ignoring it, but with the clicker training sessions it makes me feel guilty, as she is clearly enjoying it so much and I hate to see her get all grumpy again. So far I tend to deal with it by making sure I have finished things, so I can just leave her as soon as the session is finished - is this the right thing to do??
I am assuming it will get better as I establish things more - here's hoping!?
I end each session with two flat palms raised (saying "all gone" at the same time) and then walk away purposefully without looking back. I did feel a bit mean to start with, but they soon learn and it seems they feel happier once that boundary is understood.
I say 'All gone' too to end a session - I then take off the bumbag and put the clicker in it. It does seem to work although Cruch can get push sometimes. He is much beet now though.
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