Hi everyone, hope you are all OK. Now after the 'bit' Thread sumbitted by my friend and colleague Helen could you all let me have you opinions/experiences with bitless bridles ie from Hackamore to Dr Cooks. I have a client who wants to go down this route due to a very entrenched bit problem. Opinions etc greatly received. Also what material do you think are the best to make them from?
Hi, I have just discovered this site and though this is an old thread, I have had a Dr Cook and used it on all 3 of our horses since December.
One is very strong; my feeling is that there is less conflict in the bitless. Brakes are not good, but no worse than with a bitted bridle (we have tried various and he is happiest in a mullen mouth snaffle or pelham, in extremis). I did a cross country clinic with him and took him XC schooling as well and did find that on very narrow jumps (arrowheads etc) the "steering" was not very precise.
Having said that, when I took the same horse over narrow fences some time later he had learnt how to do them and we coped with only the bitless.
The bridle is also useful on the other horses, I feel because it gives them a change from bits - perhaps a bit like walking around the house in slippers rather than shoes? They all seem to enjoy going out in the bitless and all go quite nicely in it.
My criticism would be that 2 of them tend to lean on it. Also we have found with a strong horse for a longish period the bridle can leave a swollen area where it presses on the nose - this is on the bone, not nostrils, but does show that the bridle is not innocuous. It doesn't seem to be painful but is unsightly and worries me when it has happened.
Secondly, I don't think the bridles are particularly well made for the price, and you do get stung for import duty. Their customer service is good, however.
Thanks for your experiences with bitless bridles. As this thread never really got going I guess most of us have considered going bitless but haven't actually tried it yet! (Did you see the "A little bit more than necessary" thread? That was a bit of a precursor to this one)
So far I've tried using a hackamore and while it was much better than a bit for long distance riding it seemed very heavy and he sweats quite a lot under it. I also don't like the idea of taking up a contact on it and so wouldn't use it for schooling or jumping. I've never tried using one of the cross-over type bitless bridles but am trying to avoid that sort of squeezing action if possible.
I've now found a company in the UK who make sidepull bridles and I've decided that this is the sort I want to go with. Some of the sidepulls I've seen had a horrible "cheese-wire" type noseband but luckily this UK company goes for a nice padded noseband instead. Not as expensive as some of them either! So as soon as I have some spare cash at the end of a month I'll be getting one and posting here again.
One question I have about most bitless bridles I've seen on various websites is that they all seem to be fitted quite low down on the nose, almost as low as you'd fit a drop noseband. Is this correct? Why are they so low?
Not sure if sidepulls are the same as the Dr COok? certainly the steering involves a pull which translates to a push on the opposite side of the face. Is this the same thing?
Anyway, it is true that they advice the noseband to be fitted quite low. We have found that for most of the time and on 2 of our horses, it is adequate to fit them at more or less the same height as a cavesson.
The height of the noseband does not affect steering but has a big effect on brakes - do not go hunting or XC schooling with a noseband fitted like a cavesson - we have tried it and it is a little TOO exciting
This is one of my concerns - with a strong horse you have to fit it fairly low to get enough leverage for control, so it does end up putting a lot of pressure on the nose if they are consistently strong.
Obviously there are some pretty unpleasant consequences if a they are the same in a bit (sore lips etc); neither a bit nor a bitless really provide a solution, IMO.
Whilst I am not advocating Parelli techniques, the Parelli rope hackamore is worth trying, it is slightly differant from the rope headcollars, the knots are placed differantly. The nose piece is not too low and it is not severe at all. The only thing I would suggest with a strong horse is to work on disengaging the hind quarters for stopping if the horse does not respond to slight pressure on the headcollar. I was given a horse and he arrived with his bridle which had a very severe bit, I haven't used it but schooled him instead in the headcollar. He quickly picked up the new signals and I felt confidant enough to take him out on a hack. Whilst out riding I weaved him in and around trees and practised half halts and he was fine.
Hi Catherine! As far as I know, fitting it very low is correct. Part of the action is to exert pressure on the sensitive part of the nose, thus using negative reinforcement - not a favourite of yours and also the reason why I've resisted them so far. I don't see what I would gain in brakes if I simply shifted discomfort from the mouth to the nose and therefore settled for reschooling the halt in my case!
Actual experiences may be different for others though, so don't take my word as gospel!
Diane, in my experience it was not simply "shifting discomfort from mouth to nose". All our horses, to a greater or lesser extent, were more relaxed with a bitless bridle.
This may be partly due to mouth conformation (2 of them are ID crosses with large tongues and lips so not much room for a bit to fit comfortably).
With one, who had been ridden in a fairly severe bit, it was a case of taking away the issue.
In all 3 cases there was less "conflict" than with a bit. Two of the horses are not at all strong, and for them I don't believe there was ever any discomfort on the nose - only a hint of pressure was needed.
The 3rd horse is ALWAYS strong on the way home - he is 18 and I suspect always will be. He is very open to retraining (was broken to harness at 16 and restarted a competitive junping career at 17!) but on the way home there is only one thing on his mind. Actually when clicker training him I have often used turning for home as his reward. As a result there will always be occasions when he is strong, simply because at some stage one has to return home He still is happier in the bitless, and his reaction to the restraint on the nose seems to be to show frustration (not able to go as fast as he wants) rather than discomfort. With the bit I would say he DID show discomfort. Just my experience...
Hmmm, quite possibly then I would have the same experience! Like I say, I haven't actually used one yet, but was put off by the pressure stories. With my boy, he just refuses (or did before reschooling) to stop still for junctions etc on the way home. Sometimes I unfortunately have to pull his head around sharpish, to stop it being knocked off by the next twit who zooms past at 50mph. This is what I meant by shifting the discomfort, as I would have ended up pulling his nose in the same way as his mouth. We're getting much better now and maybe once he stops regularly like a good boy I'll reconsider!
What kind of bitless do you use Nic, out of interest?
Hi again! We have Dr Cook's at the moment BUT the leather one has just come apart They are sending me a new noseband but if I were looking around for one I would try and find an English manufacturer - both for quality and 'cos the import duties from the US are high. Its still well worth giving a bitless a try, though, and horses do seem to appreciate the change.
Most of the time, even with my strong horse, I can get away with fitting the noseband quite high (more like a cavesson) which keeps pressure pretty light.
Hi there, as you will know from the other thread I've been using a Dr Cook bridle on my mare. I didn't like it fitted so low on the nose either, so I've always fitted it at Cavesson height. I generally ride her on a loose rein anyway, I very rarely find it necessary to take up a contact, even when cantering up the field, she is much more relaxed and responsive in it than she ever was in a bit. On the times that I have taken up more of a contact (when I first got it and was experimenting), i found that she went very deep in it, which put me off- though it may have less poll pressure than an ordinary hackamore it still has too much, to my mind. The only reason I haven't tried a scawbrig is because I heard they have steering issues. is a sidepull like that, or is it different? Perhaps someone could explain how it works.
My one main complaint arises from an incident the other day: she has one hell of a buck which luckily rarely occurs, but she got abit of a fright the other day and exploded with me on board. I am proud to say that I stayed on and didn't lose any stirrups (the last time this happened, a year and a half ago, she put me in hospital!). When she began to buck the reins were at the buckle, I quickly gathered them up and sat tight, but it was too late to pull her head up and I don't think that I could have because of the way the bridle works, all I did was talk to her (well, I actually shouted 'stop it', in self preservation, and because we always use clicker training and kindness I think it jolted her back to common sense, it was such a surprise to her, she stopped- after atleast 4 bronco style leaps across the rhubarb field!). I didn't feel I'd taken a particularly strong contact on the reins, but when I got off her I saw the bridle had cut the side of her face. it is the nylon version and quite hard- for anyone who has one, it was the piece just above were the ring for the reins/ cheek pieces to pass through is attached on the right hand side. I wasn't too impressed with this, and it concerns me now that anyone expecting to ride with this bridle with a strong rein contact is going to have alot of problems....
poor old Geri! If anyone has any suggestions for better bridles please let me know!!!!
Helen
The good thing about riding in the Dually is that you can put a velcro sheepskin noseband over the corded piece so that any pressure (not often required) is spread evenly and softly!
Thanks for the comments as to fitting the noseband - think I'll be fitting it as a cavesson then! Glad to hear that's possible.
The sidepull is literally a headcollar with padded noseband, browband and additional rings either side of the nose to attach reins to. I think a scawbrig has a cross-over type noseband so that there is a squeezing action on the nose. So I'm guessing that the steering would be more like the Dr. Cook type of steering except that it only works from the nose and not the nose/poll. But I might be wrong there....
Gill, good idea re. the sheepskin. Will try that if the noseband seems uncomfortable.
This message has been edited by Brocksopp on Apr 25, 2003 8:50 AM
Hi Catherine, so there is no squeezing in a sidepull? I hadn't realised- I like the sound of that! I suppose the only pressure you would get in it then would be on the top of the nose? Where do you get them? I'd like to try one if it's not too dear, although not for a while as Geri is not right again (back or feet, haven't quite worked out which yet) so I'll not be riding her for a while. Do you find the horses are more relaxed in it because there is no pressure or tightness around their head?
By the way, just thought I'd add for those that are interested, I did a CRC test in the Dr Cook bridle on a loose rein because I was more interested in how Geri was going than in getting marks and got the comment 'no contact, even though it's a bitless bridle'- the judge thought it was awful that I had no rein contact and failed to comment on the fact that the mare was moving really nicely and had no need of a contact!!! Short sightedness is a terrible thing. Have given up on dressage for this season anyway but certainly there is little at the moment to inspire me!
but they don't have a picture of one on their site. If you do a google search on side-pull then lots of sites come up. Some are nasty and have really thin nosebands. Others are nice and padded (but much more expensive than the company above). I've been assured by Plas Equestrian that theirs are the padded noseband sort but will order it by phone to check one more time!
Sorry to hear about Geri - hope you sort her out soon. Is she shod or barefoot (that's my favourite subject when I'm not talking about behaviour!)? And as for your CRC judge - aaaaarrrrgggghhhh!!! I hope you wrote to the CRC magazine!
That's awful about the CRC test. We used to run the crc dressage tests in our area but to be honest I didn't generally think that all the judges where very 'classical' really. Most judges that we used were BD judges and some had not even taken the CRC judging course (which apparently was OK!)
I would certainly write to CRC about your comments!
I too have lost heart with dressage (even CRC dressage)- it seems at the moment the only way to 'get anywhere' is do awful things to your horse to get it in an 'outline' - not my idea of fun I'm afraid!
Hi there! Sadly the CRC judge was not a CRC judge at all and not even a BD (or Dressage IReland as we are over here) judge- she failed to get on to list 6..... she was awful, no constructive comments at all and she said on everyones test: 'rider must carry hands higher'- well, I've been having alexander riding lessons with Gloria Pullan and she was there that day, she said just tear the test up because it wasn't worth the paper it was written on!
i have started another thread about Geri because I want peoples ideas...
conventional riders depress me.
Perhaps I'm interpreting it wrongly, but it seems that people are concentrating rather too much on stopping and steering the horse with the reins? I'm probably over-reacting, but it always worries me when people talk like that! If you're concerned about the amount of pressure/damage you are likely to inflict on your horse via the reins, whether in a bitless bridle or a conventional one, then maybe you're relying too much on the reins? So why not learn to stop and steer mainly with your seat and legs
Also, as we're all into clicker training, I'd have thought that as well as retraining with the conventional (classical) aids for halt, you could retrain with the clicker as well. I've not actually tried that myself yet - must have a go
I know in the real world (ie out on a ride!) you sometimes have to take a stronger hold than you'd like, for safety's sake, but if you learn to brace your back you needn't actually pull that hard on the reins at all.
Sorry, if that sounded a bit of a rant but I think it's an issue that's often overlooked.
Totally with you on that one Pam, you're right, it may seem like we are all obsessed with reins, although I'm sure that's not the case! I was all fired up to retrain Geri using the clicker and then I had a lot of Alexander lessons and then riding lessons with an Alexander teacher on her... amazing what happens when you ask the right question in a clear and concise way! I reckon a comination of clicker and being a sensitive balanced rider is the way I want to go.... and I want to find a bridle that puts as little pressure on as possible, but then I ride on a loose rein anyway so it doesn't really matter, I suppose! Thanks Pam!
Helen
At the moment the only riding I do is on a totally loose rein, out hacking and using a happy mouth bit. But as Helen pointed out on the "A little bit more than necessary" thread, a bit is still pretty invasive. I agree that theoretically it shouldn't matter which bitless bridle I go for since I want to train with light hands, no pressure and CT.
But in practice, out hacking Jak will occasionally spook. If jumping (typically in a sponsored ride type scenario) then there will be times when my less than perfect technique will mean I get left behind. I can't promise that in these types of situations I won't jab him. These might be minor forms of "punishment" compared with what some horses have to go through but I feel that if a horse gets used to being trained with +R then it means that these inadvertant types of punishment are more significant.
These are the main reasons why I want to go for the mildest type of bridle I can find.
But just to throw the cat among the pigeons.... I see the seat and leg aids you refer to as just as much -R or +P as the hand aids. If I'm going to set myself the challenge of retraining dressage moves with pure +R then I don't intend to use any sort of -R/+P aids - but I guess that's a discussion for another thread...!
Catherine - completely agree with you that most riding is about using -R, but most people won't completely retrain to use just +R, so I see the use of leg and seat aids as much kinder to the horse than hauling on its mouth
I take your point about bitless bridles being better if there's a risk of the horse getting jabbed in the mouth. My own mare doesn't seem to like them though - hates any pressure on her nose and pulls against it, meaning I have to pull back!, whereas with a bit she doesn't, so I stick with the French-link she seems comfortable in, and neither of us pulls I agree in principle that bitless bridles should be nicer for the horse, but I've tried 2 different types on Esme and she wasn't keen on either of them, so I didn't persevere - I guess it was her choice!
I think another factor often overlooked is the use of the voice. I know it's frowned upon in dressage tests to speak to your horse, but in normal situations I think it can be very useful, especially when teaching new things. If your horse already understands a word or phrase, why not use the same word/phrase in training - that way there's less chance of the horse getting confused.
Happy to say that I am in the process of teaching the halt with CT with great success. Am using the voice aid as cue too! After one lesson (on a hack), Henry is stopping like a very good boy - I was quite shocked, lol!
I had been following this with interest as I have just bought a Scrawbrig for my mare (from www.libbys-tack.co.uk) - I got it as I though it seemed to be the mildest of the bitless bridles, and have been quite pleased with it. Although not sure if I will try it fo hacking out it just yet!
Our tack room was broken into the other night and although I'd started keeping my saddle at home (phew - not insured and have just spent 300 quid on repairing it!!) I no longer have a bridle. So I'm going to be buying a sidepull sooner than I'd planned!
Went for a nice hack today using the headcollar and a rope either side which went really well. Only point of non-communication was when we started our second gallop and I wanted him to trot and change to the other lead - yeah right!! But it's ok as we very "skillfully" skidded through a muddy patch and did a flying change (all intended of course....)
It arrived last week while I was away and I tried it out for the first time on Saturday (ie the first ride we've done since Jak's accident about 5-6 weeks ago). We rode for about 45 mins, walking only (he's out 24/7 in case anyone thinks this sounds a lot for a first ride after time off work) although he insisted he wanted to jog home and was definitely in perky pony mode.
Anyway, the sidepull bridle is just what I wanted. Basically a headcollar with really nice padded and broad noseband. Then there is a strap round the back of the nose, a throat lash and a brow band, all in a more narrow webbing. The only pressure applied goes on the front of the nose. I fit it so the noseband is in the normal cavesson position which seems to work fine.
As for "control" - well, about as much as we had in the headcollar!! But hey, this is an exercise in trust not brakes.....
Will take a photo and try to post it some time (I think it is possible to post photos directly on here but need to find out how....!)
Catherine that sounds perfect. I can't remember where you said you got it? Perhaps you could let us know!
Helenx
p.s. agree with you re:trust, I don't want my riding tobe an exercise of pain for my horse or any other!
If you scroll up a bit I've put in a web link to Plas Equestrian. There's no photo of the sidepull on the site unfortunately but as I said, I'll try to post one at some point
Sounds like excellent stuff! What material did you get? When I got a libbys bridle I found that it itched Henry a bit, so am wondering should I splash out and get English leather - ooh fancy!
Well done Catherine in posting aphotograph!!
Lovely to see Jak in his bridle. How has he been going in it, what does he think??! I like the look of it, especially the fact that it doesn't come near his eyes, a criticism I have of the doctor cook bridle.
Must look in to investing in one... that is if I'm ever going to be able to ride Geri again.
Hx
Well, he's pretty much going the same in the sidepull as he always did in the happy mouth. Except that chewing the hedgerow is easier!! But seriously, he is lovely and relaxed in it and the only time we have a problem is when we have a difference of opinion as to whether we go the long way or the short way home. Sometimes he gets his own way and sometimes I do...! The fact that he will be more insistant in the sidepull than the bridle that his way is right just tells me that even the kindest bit I could find was less comfortable than the sidepull. I'd much prefer him to feel comfortable in putting his view across. So I've definitely done the right thing by switching - a big THANK YOU for your original post!
Having said that I'm probably being more cautious of potentially scary situations, but I think that's more to do with the accident and the "what ifs" that have gone round my head ever since. In particular the "would it still have happened if we'd been riding in a bridle on that day instead of a headcollar?" Probably but I don't know. So I may dismount more often to go past spooky things near traffic etc but I don't have a problem with that
Catherine, that sounds good. Perhaps all you need to do is look at the bridle from this point of view:
everything he has learnt about reins and bits in the past has been based on -ve R and punishment. (I know you are lovely to him, but I do remember you saying he had a traditional schooling background?) So when you substitute something much milder then he is going to be able to resist (when he wants to do something else) it better and also more inclined to resist it because of his previous learnings and experiences. The key, i feel, is to treat it as if he has never been introduced to a bridle, bit, noseband, reins, and decide how you would introduce him using +R: what cues would you teach etc?
That way when you hit a point where he wants to go one way and you want to go another, you can use the motivation of the +r training to encourage him to go your way!
I know you know all this already, and are probably doing it, but I just thought I'd write it anyway because it might spark of some ideas in other peoples heads!!!
All the best
Helenx
Yup, that's exactly our plan and it's just a case of being in that transition phase. I know it will be fine long-term.
But rather conveniently on one of the trails Jak normally chooses not to go down he's just found a crab-apple tree with lots of fallen fruit - so it's kind of a DIY +R!!!
Just to update y'all, I got my Sidepull English Leather and I have to say it's fantastic. Same supplier as Catherine's, but webbing seems to itch Henry so I went P-O-S-H. I'm so pleased with it. Every bit of the control I had with the Happy Mouth, and possibly more. The only slight hitch was when we first went into canter and he seemed to object to the noseband. He hasn't worn a noseband for about 2 years - I may also have taken up a slight contact as you would in conventional bridles before a canter past a field of sheep!! That was the very first ride though and we've done all paces since with no problems whatsoever. I love it and give it strokes with leather dressing.
Just out of interest have any of you tried riding without a bridle just using a neck ring? Personally I wouldn't go hacking like that... but if you've got a horse that doesn't like nose or bit pressure it's a wonderful tool - you can feel wonderfully brave but have just as much control over speed and direction as with a bridle. It's also really good for bringing a horse up off his forehand (as long as he's going forwards properly), so it's really good for schooling.
Not tried the neck ring, but the other day I did just drop the reins and let them sit on the neck while we went along. Quite an exercise in trust, given the number of pheasant and deer around!
Hi, this is interesting! I have been teaching Geri to lead with just a rope round her neck as this is something that most horses can do but she had a real problem with. The next thing I think I'll tackle is forelock leading. She does walk 'to heel' anyway (isn't clicker training magic??!!) but who knows when someone might attempt to lead her by the forelock and currently if you even considered it you would be swinging through the air as she took off upwards and backwards at speed! Anyway, I'm gettin side tracked. What I wanted to say was riding with a neck rein was the next thing I was thinking about as I have been teaching her to turn, walk on, halt and back from cues from the rope round her neck- a nice development from the heel work and one that I can transfer over to riding once the physio gives me the go ahead.
I'm now beginning to think about options for hacking and am thinking that if insurance wise I have to ride with a bit (even though I don't agree with it) then I could ride with the reins at the buckle and use the neck rein to cue her to do whatever, then I feel more secure and won't worry about hurting her or upsetting her and everyone is happy? What do you think? I would love to see a world in which people didn't use bits and standards of training where higher, but in the meantime I think I have to compromise.
Hx
Hi Helen,
From what I gather, most insurance companies will accept bitless bridles, provided it is made for the purpose i.e. not a headcollar with a lead rope on. Best to check anyway, but knowing how you feel about bits it would be a terrible shame for you to put one in. Those who ride in hackamores are bitless after all and they never have insurance problems (not documented anyway). Good luck with the neck strap. I might even try it myself - Henry already neck reins, so taking it one step further would be interesting!
Bit-induced pain: a cause of fear, flight, fight and facial neuralgia in the horse
September 29 2003, 2:08 PM
20033009584
AU: Cook, W. R.
AA: School of Veterinary Medicine, Tufts University, Medford, Massachusetts, USA.
SO: Pferdeheilkunde, 2003, Vol.19, No.1, pp.75-82, 17 ref.
AB: An ethological survey was based on 605 written reports from horsemen who had switched from a bitted bridle to a new bitless bridle. The comparison of equine behaviour was between an invasive and painful method of control (a bitted bridle) and a non-invasive and painless method (a bitless bridle). The unprecedented opportunity to switch a horse, overnight, from painful to painless control revealed many new and serious manifestations of the syndrome 'aversion to the bit.' The survey demonstrated that the bit method of control caused 58 adverse behavioural effects. All 58 effects could be classified under four major effects; to instill fear, to trigger flight, to make the horse fight back, and to cause facial neuralgia (the headshaking syndrome). These effects could all, in turn, be categorized as responses to oral pain. The sensory pathway for registering pain caused by the bit is the trigeminal nerve but the motor pathways involved many systems, with the nervous, respiratory and musculoskeletal systems predominating. The behavioural responses interfered, in particular, with attitude to exercise, breathing and locomotion. A survey of 65 horse skulls revealed painful, bit-induced exostoses on the mandibular diastema in 49 (75%). It was concluded that a bit is harmful to the health and safety of horse and rider, and is an impediment to performance.
Interesting reading. However, as presumably a bit can only cause damage if pressure is applied, ie by pulling on the reins, I do think that the people who pull on the reins with a bitted bridle will still pull on the reins with a bitless bridle and will therefore still damage their horses!
They are sending me a new noseband but if I were looking around for one I would try and find an English manufacturer - both for quality and 'cos the import duties from the US are high. Its still well worth giving a bitless a try, though, and horses do seem to appreciate the change. 
