Have any of you moved onto creating behaviour chains with your CT work?
I am going through the process of retraining Crunchie's gait aids - I have nearly got walk on cue now when riding, following a target and long reining but I want to progress onto trot, canter, movements, lateral work etc... I think I will have to create behaviuor chains to do that though.
Slighty confused. Can you enlighten me, as I don't understand why you want a behaviour chain. Wouldn't a chain set the horse up to follow the same routine every time you work with him so eventually he will anticipate your schooling regime and stop listening for his next aid/cue.
Surely the cue will establish throughout rather than in just one pace. For example, the horse understands stop, go in whatever gait he is in. In other words work on the cue in it's entirety and not with each pace. As for lateral work, the theory would be the same. The cue for a sideways push should, once established, will be listened to in whatever pace he is in.
Having trouble explaining but I think I'm trying to say is for which ever pace your in the aid is the same.
Go = the same pressure is used to acheive a transition whether you go from halt, walk, trot, canter and paces within these gaits.
Is this relevant let me know, cos I'd like to understand.
I think Liz makes a really valid point here - if you create a behaviour chain then each behaviour within the chain acts as the cue for the next behaviour. So if you wanted to do a particular dressage test where you only had to give one cue at the beginning and Crunch would know what to do for the rest of it then this would work fine. But if you want to be able to vary your sessions (which I guess you do!) then he needs to be able to respond to all your various different cues.
If you do want to create a chain then the advice Karen Pryor gives about working backwards is sooo helpful. I learnt this years before I'd ever heard of CT - my flute teacher at school taught me to do it with difficult pieces of music. You learn the last bar, then the penultimate bar and then join them together. The the third last bar etc etc It made it so much easier than starting at the beginning as you are always approaching familiarity (which is kind of self-rewarding).
Liz - I was interested to hear you say you use "faster" and "slower" cues, rather than "walk", "trot", "canter". In that case how do you distinguish between (for example) a transition from slow trot to fast trot and a transition from slow trot to slow canter? Do you use the clicker alongside -R? Would you agree that if you were trying to work with +R alone (which I accept is a discussion in itself!) then it would be easier to have a cue for each gait and then use the faster and slower cues within the gaits?
This message has been edited by Brocksopp on Mar 27, 2003 11:29 AM
I realise now that it is not really a behaviour chain I need advise on (well I don't think so anyway). If I outline what I am thinking then that might help….
OK, If I am long reining my horse in walk and then want to progress to a trot - would I stop clicking for good walk strides and only concentrate on the trot (I guess so at first) or would I continue to throw a few clicks in for a good walk. I'm guessing that if I click for both walk and trot (in the early stages) I will be confusing matters. However if I continually overlook the walk and only click for the trot, will my horse not lose motivation to show good walk strides? (I know you don't know my horse so don't know his motivatio, but opinions would be great) That is why I kind of thought you would create a behaviour chain - ie stop clicking for the walk and only click for the trot - if trot always follows walk then is that not a chain? The only problem with that is when it comes to halt-trot transitions (could use a different cue I suppose).
I guess once trot is established (that would be out of a chian at first - trot always follows walk in the beginning) then you may be able to concentrate on more specific things each training session????
I use treatless/marker clicks if that is relevant.
It would really help if I could see someone who has progressed too doing this kind of work (ie with more than one behaviour) - trouble is I don't know anyone and I don't really follow the A Kurland stuff.
Ahhh….I thought I had all this straight in my head, but then I start to analyse it again and it all goes pear shaped!
Hi Catherine,
This is not easy to explain, but i'll try. Bearing in mind that I only started using the clicker 6 weeks ago and I haven't yet used it under saddle. I have my own set of rewards and cue's that may or may not work with other horses, it works with mine because he has been taught this way consistantly and is rewarded in our own way.
My cue's are quite complex, now I've sat down and analysed them.
For example : Halt to medium walk cue is a small forward feel with the leg with an allowing forward hand and opening of the body. Opening the door half way.
Medium walk to lengthen is the same leg and hand cue with a more pronounced lightening of the seat and openess of the body. The door is wide open.
Back to collection. Leaving the door ajar. Closing down the body, lightening the seat with just a split second longer tweak on the rein so say 'stay here'. My leg asks 'go'.
Not the best explanation in the world and probably missed some important stuff, hope you get what I mean.
His reward is a rider that doesn't fuss or nag. A question is asked, he responds and he's happy to go along until another question is asked.
He's happy with the reward of a light seat, giving hand and an exit.
If we really think about a cue it is so much more complex than just a leg aid or a point of a finger. It has to do with our whole body language and attitude whether in the saddle or on the ground.
We must take more care in our mind so that our body reflects the question asked.
I completely understand, this is confussing and I think sometimes we can over analyse. Step back for a moment, try visualising someone else asking the question. How would you help them?
He won't forget good walk strides. If he does a series of good walk strides click then quickly on to trot so your horse realises that what he has done is right, but you want to work on trot today.
When he realises that you want the same amount of effort in trot you can work on walk and trot as a whole. What I mean is, not a chain, don't relax any rules that are within the walk and trot until established. Then you can move on to canter and then relax the rules for walk and trot.
Hope this explains it better. Obviously easier said than done, because you will want a better transition and a better halt. So many more factors involved than just walk and trot. Don't set your stall out to early, see what your horse is telling you he needs help with before moving on to the next phase and never be afraid to go back a step or two.
for your responses to this. I should have made it clear really. I am aiming to retain Crunchie's ridden aids soley with positive reinfocement - with no pressure involved.
He is trained using traditional methods and to quite a high standard, but for Crunch the release of pressure is not seen as a reward and his motivation with this type of work is sub-zero.
I think I have decided that once each of my aids is on cue, I will be able to click for different bhrs in one session when the cue has been given - any thoughts?
Sorry, I think we were talking at cross purposes in that case. I understand the aids/cues you mention but if you were to try training your horse using only +R then you would probably not be able to use these cues. I'm not saying that you shouldn't use those cues, just that I know Marie is trying to use pure +R to retrain her horse.
To truly do ridden +R then you would need to establish the behaviour before adding the cue so if you establish the behaviour with eg "a small forward feel" then that is -R, at least to start with (no matter how gentle - I know this is getting very picky!).
I haven't yet started ridden CT with my horse but having seen how enthusiastic he is when we do the ground work and how unenthusiastic he was when we did "normal" dressage I really feel I need to try the +R approach to dressage if I ever want him to enjoy rather than tolerate it. That was why I asked the question. So planning ahead I feel that I will need walk, trot and canter cues with additional slow down/speed up cues for changing speed within each gait. But maybe this will change when I actually get started on it!
Marie
I've pretty much emailed this to you anyway but never mind! I think you're complicating things a little. Trot is just a new behaviour. So you need to go into the school and think "today walking doesn't work but trotting does". Wheras before you went into the school thinking "today walking works but touching the target doesn't". If walking is on cue (or even just a little bit on cue!) then he won't get confused but will just add trot to his repertoire of behaviours. He'll probably still try out walking but you just ignore it for now (rules of shaping etc etc). When walk and trot are both on cue then you can do lots of random transitions just by using the cues. But it would only become a chain if you always did say 5 strides of walk followed by 5 strides of trot followed by halt. Or whatever.
So yes, once each of your aids is on cue then you can switch between them as much as you like. Are you getting hung up on the rules of shaping and not training more than one new behaviour at a time? If so then once they're on cue you're not training new behaviours anymore and so it's ok to combine them. But unless you want Crunch anticipating each behaviour then you don't want to fix them together as a chain.
You're right in saying that if trot always follows walk then it's a chain but in my understanding (and maybe I'm wrong) for it to be a proper chain then you might have eg 3 strides of trot always following 4 strides of walk. And so if you then changed your mind and wanted 10 strides of walk then Crunch would be left wondering why the rules had changed. You could of course have a different cue so that he could distinguish between 4W+3T and the 10W but you would need an infinite number of cues!!
Marie and Catherine re. your comments about your horses' motivation for "normal" dressage, I so agree and am experiencing the same thing with Rusty. We were working at elementary level using traditional -R, but now Rusty has discovered the delights of +R, CT & rewards is he prepared to work hard for Mum's -R? No sirree Bob I don't think so! And why should he? So I'm stuck now, Rusty won't play -R and the only things we can do with CT so far are touch a target, pick up a cone and walk a few strides on long lines! Might be a while before we're back on planet British Dressage (or maybe CRC)! There's a lovely posting on ClickRyder about someone who uses CT for dressage and how much fun she and her horse have, don't know if you've seen it? At the moment I just have a vision of a motivated Rusty doing a test with enthusiasm, softness and engagement, but haven't got a clue how to turn the vision into SMART goals and shaping plans! Oh well - baby steps!
Debbie, they're little gits aren't they!! I've got this lovely mental image of you and Rusty doing your next test - enter arena and proceed down centre line. Head down. Approach target at C, touch and retrieve. Carry to F. Get distracted by grass at H and wander over (it's ok, Mum does +R and there's nothing she can do about it). Take pity on Mum and return to test. Long line, stepping over pole, to X. Get lots of carrots. Leave arena.
