I need some help/hints/tips/advice.......I have an ex racehorse who was at Newmarket for 6 years probably with very little turnout. I have now had him for three years and when I first got him you took your life in your hands when turning out - he would literally bolt through the gate. It got so that I could only turn him out in the field directly off the yard by opening the gate first, leading him from his stable with the lead rope slipped through the headcollar so that when he galloped off I didnt get towed along too. When I say bolt I mean full gallop from a standstill and right to the end of the field and back.....no way could you hang on. Sad thing is he was a flat racer so well trained in a flying start that he probably thought thats what I wanted him to do! I have managed to 'cure' the bolting through gates (occasionally he'll rush but thats manageable - we just go back out and try again and hes fine). We used 2 lunge lines tied end to end attached to a dually headcollar (sorry guys!), whilst wearing two pairs of gloves. After running into the dually three times he started to think about going, tense his muscles to run and then changed his mind. You could now walk him through a gate on a strand of silk. My problem now is that I cant get his headcollar off - he was OK last summer when out 24/7 and just came in for food but when in at night its another story (no 24hr turnout at the moment but thats another story). If I try and remove it he leaps backwards and turns to run. I am leaving a flyfree linked headcollar (velcro) so that if he gets it caught at least he wont hurt himself. Even then sometimes when I move my hand just to unclip the rope he tries to jump back, turn and run. Any advice on how I could use +reinforcement with this problem?
Sorry you have such a problem, but you are thinking along the right lines by using +R to correct it. The problem with using any kind of pressure halter is that it is really only a quick fix and no substitute for proper training. The reason he doesn't rush through the gate is because it's painful if he does, he is not truly calm and thinking. Rewarding when he does the right thing is going to take longer but once the penny drops the results are great. Start by introducing the clicker when he is out in the field but use some form of barrier in case he mugs you. Get him to target something and once he makes the connection and starts thinking you can progress to rewarding him for staying calm when you just touch his headcollar. Build it up very gradulally and be prepared to go back if he loses his calmness. Touching a target on the ground will encourage calmness as he lowers his head. You should eventually be able to build from just touching his headcollar to get him to lower his head for you to remove it. Build that onto leading him into the field and getting him to turn and face you to remove the headcollar. This will take time and patience but I am sure you will be able to acheive your aim. Read Karon Pryors Book Don't Shoot The Dog as she explains the rules of shaping behaviour a lot better than I can! Keep the training sessions short and always end on a good note. Good luck.
I agree he is probably only calm through the gate now as he remembers it hurt when he ran - also habituation I imagine as even when out 24/7 he is turned out twice a day! He is completely turned off by food - even polos - when he is being turned out. Once he has raced off and had his bucking and leaping session he will come back for a treat but obviously thats not what I want to reward.
I agree with everything Sue has said, but I just want to put some other things forward to you.
Have you actually tried CT with him yet? If not, you may find that this sort of training will increase his interest in food as a reward (eventually even at the gate).
What is he like to be caught? Does he have a good bond with you? It might be worth just trying to increase his interest in you by making being around you just a little bit more special. I did this with my horse, I used a pimple curry comb (the ones with the long teeth but which squash quite easy). Each time my horse looked at me I walked over to him and gave him a brief, but lip curling scratch, then walked away. I asked a little bit more of him each time, until he was literally trotting after me to get a scratch. This really built up our relationship - could it possibly work with your horse?
The backing up is interesting - it's as though he has realised that if he runs with the pressure halter on he will meet, sorry to say it, pain on his nose. He seems to have learnt to avoid this by backing away from the headcollar before he charges off into the green wilderness
It might be a good idea to practice getting him to walk next to you without a headcollar and leadrope in the school, then use the headcollar doing the same exercise - reward him (with ct if you are using it or treats/scratches if not) for staying with you. Then practice taking the headcollar off in the school rewarding him for staying with you (it's probably a good idea to go back to using an ordinary headcollar so that he can learn that not all headcollars are going to hurt him). Once he can stand with you, even for a couple of seconds, start to extend the amount of time you leave between the removal of the HC and the giving of the reward. Once you have established this, you could then try it in different situations - at the gate of the school maybe, or with a fence next to him, going over poles - anthing that might simulate the gate in the field.
It might also be a good idea to start working at the field gate by just walking him through - if he runs let him go, don't hold on. Go and get him, and reward him for working back with you to the gate (be careful to make it a reward for walking with you and not running off though - he will soon realise that he is wasting valuable reward time by running off and even if he keeps doing it for a while he will probably reduce the distance that he travels). Once you have established walking into the field without him running off. Take the gate out of the equation when taking his HC off - maybe walk with him to the other side of the field and work on taking the HC there, gradually working your way back to the gate. Eventually you will be able to get back to the gate, put all the stages together and hopefully have a horse that walks nicely through the gate, waits for you to take his HC off and then waits with you for a couple of mins before walking off.
Unfortunately it is not a quick fix, but if you break it down like this he will find it much easier to learn and lessons well learnt are lesson hard forgot (or something to that effect!).
Just another thing, the above is just my suggestion, the beauty of CT and +R is that you can let your imagination run away with you¡Kthe main thing to remember is that it should be fun for both you and your horseƒº Also, as I have never met your horse you may not feel that what I have written is appropriate for him - that is OK, you know your horse best but I hope what I have written may give you some ideas
Hi Marie - I think we met at Witney on a weekend course with Ian?
I havent yet tried Concer with CT but am going straight to amazon.co.uk to buy Karen Pryor's book but just a few lines in answer to your email:
He is fine to be caught - using join-up type body language (e.g. keep advancing if he is not giving me attention, 45 degree angle and eyes down if he looks at me, arcing toward him, walking past him and then arc back etc). Sounds like it takes ages but it doesnt as long as my body language is right - other people have trouble (friend says, I havent got time for all that, and then gives up). I think we have a good bond (we hack out alone etc) but most relationships could be improved and he would rather eat grass than play with me in the field which is understandable. We we dont have a school. Just to confirm - I only use an ordinary headcollar for turning out with a velcro link. The Dually was used as a training halter only - although I ride in it with a sheepskin noseband over the double rope noseband and washing line reins. Backing away from the headcollar (even a Dually) wouldnt release the pressure - only keeping slack in the lead rope does this - so I dont think he is backing away to avoid pain - looks to me as if he is backing up to get his weight on his hind legs for a quick spin and getaway!! He leads extremely well in a headcollar with a loose line. This particular problem is definitely situational as we cannot replicate it elsewhere - taking a headcollar off in the yard, in the stable or a school or even a field where he hasnt been turned out before does not create the same adrenalin rush for him - its the anticipation of freedom that pushes his buttons. It does help if I dont turn him to take off the headcollar but walk around, allow him to graze a little, wander to the water butt, along the fenceline, another little graze and then I can take the headcollar off easily. I am trying to blur the distinction between being 'caught' and being free...
Will read the book with interest and see if CT does make a difference to his attitude to treats in the field (much prefers grass thank you).
I wondered if it was you Yes I was the Clicker mad one on the course!
Hope you enjoy Karen's book, it's one of my bibles now...very tattered but worth every penny.
Yep, when I first started CT with Crunch I never thought I would overcome his grass 'fetish' (he's half welsh you see!). It took two sessions in the school for me to have him trotting round after me for scratches instead of eating grass
It's really just a matter of finding the best treat/reward for your horse, and some horses will go off an eat grass during a CT session (Crunch included) but if you train at liberty that is something you are 'allowing' them to do - you give them a choice to be with you or the grass. There is no better feeling in the world than having your horse work at liberty with you, when there is grass at his feet that he could quite easily eat if he wanted to
You could even use grass or play time as his reward although I haven't used these methods myself so wouldn't like to advise on the best way to go about that....I'm sure that other people on here could give you a clearer methods of doing this
Hi Gill.
can I ask a couple of questions.Does he ever show any anxiety when passing through other places,other gates or trailer,passage ways ect?
Have you tried after you have turned him loose going back to catch him soon after and rewarding him for being with you,then letting him go again.Keepin repaeting this procces.If you kept this up letting him go and catching for several times do you think eventually he would start to learn that he didn't need to hare off each time?.Once you got him to quitely walk away from you when you let him go I think taking off his headcollar would become less of an issue for him.
Just a thought.
Rach
Hi Rach, thanks for responding.
Concer doesnt get anxious going through gateways anymore unless it is a change of routine e.g. if I have to turn him out in another field he hasnt been in for a while - the first time he is normally OK but the second and third he rushes and then he's OK again - its weird... He is great when ridden out and will now stand while I open and close gates.
I have tried catching and releasing but it is only the first time he is released he goes silly - if I catch him again and then take his headcollar off he is fine..... I think the reason we havent dealt with this yet is it is so complicated! Have ordered Karen Pryor's book which will be sent first class so will see what CT has to offer us.
Good for you for wanting to find a +R way of sorting this out. Obviously there isn't a guaranteed quick way to fix it but there are lots of ways you can try. I definitely agree with what's been said above.
The thing that hits me most of all from what you've said is that although he's worked out a way of avoiding pressure and thereby not doing the wrong thing, he hasn't really worked out what the right thing is. That's where the +R will really help him.
I know you said that you can't replicate the problem elsewhere but I think doing lots of +R work on leading and removing the headcollar (ie two separate behaviours) will really help. It will enable him to start to associate the headcollar being removed as a good thing rather than just "not a bad thing". Once he has really started to think about this then he is more likely to be able to think when he's in the field, instead of just reacting instinctively. I'd start off practicing this in a situation where he's less likely to panic and gradually build up.
I agree that he is more likely to become interested in the treats when he is thinking and knows what they are for. I find that my horse will be much more interested in grass if I haven't made it clear to him what the task is. But as soon as he twigs what we are doing he will happily work for pathetic bits of carrot instead of going off to graze.
Please let us know how it goes - when we hear what you've tried and how it goes then it will be easier to make more suggestions.
DSTG is an excellent book but be aware that it isn't a clicker training "how to" book. Personally I think that's a good thing as it gives a really good overview of how to use +R. Once you have that foundation it is much easier to plan your own personal route through CT.
Sorry, thought you was using a pressure halter on him still. However, I do think the backing up is an 'avoidence' issue even with a normal HC.
Just a thought. You say he only runs off the one time and then he is fine after that. Is he fine when you just bring him back to the gate to take the HC off again? What I'm getting at is, can you possibly replicate the situation (only to help him learn) by taking him back to the stable and maybe going back through the 'going in the field' process much earlier on....even to the point maybe that you put him back in his stable and 'put him to bed', drive your car off the yard to 10 mins and then come back and repeat the process again - I know that sounds really far fetched but if you could replicate the situation a couple more time a day maybe, you might be able to reduce the distance that he runs each time and hopefully help him understand what you are trying to help him with.
No not sure what I have just wrote would work - I'm not sure whether he would see going back in his stable a bad thing and would make the situation worse, he may even start to not be caught.
I really think that you need to reward he for being with you in situations before the gate comes into the equation. I know that you say he is fine in other situations but if you can get him to 'want' to be with you even more than he normally would then I think you might help him a lot more.
Posted this here rather than the IHDG as I knew I would get such a thoughtful and helpful response - thanks again to all. I think you make a very good point Catherine when you say he hasnt worked out yet what the right thing really is - i.e. stand still while I take your headcollar off then stay with me until I walk away - I need to really think how I can help him with that. Currently Concer is in a field off the yard so I am taking his headcollar off on the yard and allowing him to make his own way to the field so no pressure - this morning, after a lovely ride, he decided he would rather come and give me a rub than go off to the field which was nice. Will try and continue this until I have read the book and digested your comments and have a plan of action. Thanks again and will keep you posted.
Sounds like you are doing everything right, Gill. Thinking of him coming to you for a rub, does he have any favourite itchy spots? Really lip-curling itchy spots?! If not then keep trying to find them. Scratching is so powerful at this time of year to show your horse that you are a good place to be.
The other day I was scratching Jak (loose in the field) in a few places where he has fly bites and he just goes to putty then! But one of the other livery owners called her horse to the gate and so the herd went galloping off to the other side of the field. I stood back expecting Jak to do the same - he bunched himself up, all ready to go and then changed his mind. He obviously decided that his human was way too pathetic and slow to come with him and so he decided to stay and have scratches while the others galloped off without him. THAT'S how powerful scratches are!
Of course then you get the opposite problem where your horse is mugging you for scratches everytime you turn him out but that's an easy problem to deal with!!
You are so right about itchy spots Catherine, I had a horse that would reverse into me when she saw me so I could scratch her backside! It looked quite alarming, people thought she was going to kick me she was so enthusiastic. The horses are all very itchy at the moment so its a good thing to try and build bonds. I have a livery horse whose owners turn up to put him in his stable and let him out again in the morning, they never have any interaction with him and insist he is kept on his own. When I first started to make friends with him he was very aloof but when I started to scratch his withers etc he became my new best friend! I have tried to persuade his owners to let him stay out in the field and have a companion but it all falls on deaf ears. They truly believe they are pampering this horse by putting him in his stable at 4.00pm every day and not letting him out if it is raining etc. Before I took over the yard he sometimes didn't even have a haynet because they thought he'd eaten enough all day. He is sweltering in a rug at the moment because they worry he might catch cold. Sorry I'm digressing from the subject but sometimes it's difficult to hold everyone in unconditional positive regard!
Hi Gill - interested to know how you're getting on with the turning out problem. Esme took to tanking off with me when being led in-hand this winter, for the first time ever (I've had her seven and a half years!), and did it a couple of times when I was turning her out. She never goes very far and I've always managed to hang on to her, but it's a bit disconcerting, to say the least! Thankfully she's not done it for a while, and I've now got the turning out sorted. I ask her to "come round" as I'm closing the the gate (which I've always done) and then ask her to "stand still" until I've removed her headcollar. She then stands with me until she's had her treat and only then will she leg it into the field. I used the clicker at first and she now knows that if she stands still while I take her headcollar off she'll get a treat, and it seems to have solved the problem. Obviously it's an ongoing process, but I think we're definitely getting there
Well......Once 24 hour turnout was established (took about a week) Concer was happy to stand and have his headcollar removed, wait for a treat and a stroke then turn and walk sedately away. The only time he now tries to pull back when I reach up to take off his headcollar is if its really windy - only happened twice in the last 6 weeks.
Ive read Dont shoot the dog, bought my clicker and introduced it to him. I used a bright pink dandy brush as a target and did very short sessions morning and evening for 3 days before he really got the message - hes either a bit slow or very suspicious - I think its the latter! I can now take the brush into the field and work with him loose - I put the brush on the ground and walk away and 9 times out of 10 he'll touch the brush with his nose and look expectantly at me rather than follow me or wander off. Im a bit unsure as to what to try next so I have stopped as I dont want him to get bored. He already leads really well (loose line, respectful distance, stopping when I stop etc) but how about using the clicker to work toward leading without a rope/headcollar? Im thinking that this could be helpful for turning out as I wont have to remove the headcollar at all in the field (the field is directly off a secure yard). If I can really get this down before the horses are stabled overnight (got till Christmas!!) I am hoping his motivation for being with me will override whatever motivates him to sling his head up in the air and pull back when I attempt to take his headcollar off in the field. What d'you think? Ive ordered Alex Kurland's book from Amazon so looking forward to reading that.
Hi Gill, glad you are getting on so well! If you keep working on the headcollar on off and doing clicker training then it will cease to be an issue when you get to Christmas. It was only an issue before because you hadn't done everything you've done now!
Leading loose is a great thing to work on. With my horse i started off with the headcollar and holding the v. end of the rope, then I clicked her for staying with me wherever I was til we got to the point we could turn and backup, halt etc. Then I removed the rope but not headcollar. Now we do it loose in the field, and it is her choice whether she is in the mood or not, or whter she wants to spend time with me.
Have fun, Concer will let you know what he thinks soon enough!
Helenx
Don't worry about how long it took Concer to relate to the click, some horses do take longer than others and I suspect it is suspicion or lack of confidence rather than horses being slow. Once he gets the hang of it and you introduce more exercises you'll be the one trying to keep up with him
As for what to do next, the world is your oyster. Once I had established cone touching with Crunch we progressed onto things like head down, following a target on a stick, retraining ridden aids, loading, spanish walk, turn around etc.... You'll probably find that you have so many things that you want to try CT with that you won't know where to start!
The most important things is the fun factor for you and your horse and getting Concer to follow you around will probably be great fun for both of you If you find that one of you isn't enjoying something take a step back and see what has changed - getting bored of doing the same task is something that you really need to be aware of.
Thanks for the encouragement - I lost my clicker on Sunday and I was desperate to get another - I went into a pet shop this morning and found a 'multi-clicker' - all it basically means is that you have 3 variations on tone/duration of click. Also it was only £2.50 and it has a piece of elastic attached that you can put round your wrist - really helpful. So.....from someone who thought CT was for flakes to someone who gets upset cos they lose their clicker - in 3 weeks. Not bad!! I live in Battle, East Sussex which is probably about an hour and 30 minutes from Horsham (my mum used to live in Southwater closeby). The journey cross-country is horrible though - especially this time of year if you get stuck behind a tractor.
Just to let all know that Im still lurking and learning here! So far using the clicker has enabled me to use a flyspray on Concer (previously he would dance around the yard). I am also using it to ask for a longer and longer 'statue' after taking his headcollar off when turning out in the field. This is his best time of year for being turned out without fuss so Im hoping it will carry on into the winter this time. Have also used it for reverse when hes out in the field to good effect - now only have to raise my right arm so its horizontal and say back and he does.
Well done Gill! Long may it continue. Looks like my saddle saga will go on for a couple more months, so watch this space for my anecdotes on clicker training!!!
Thanks for the support - there are four of us on the yard, one is curious, one thinks Im a bit mad and the other one I darent let her see me as I can only too well imagine her reaction - so its good to have 'unconditional postive regard' here!
Would be great to meet up in Brighton - when are you going over next?
... It would indeed be marvellous if there was a South East CT network. Does anyone have a good venue near them where workshops etc could be held? Then we could get Ben and Emma etc over here! You'd all be welcome at my field of course, but facilities are a bit lacking, toilet bush, seating log, blackberries as refreshments...
Gill I see what you mean. The owners (and they really are just 'owners') on my yard haven't even heard of clicker training, or even Natural horsemanship in any context. makes conversation rather difficult!!! At least I can blind them with science though and leave them saucer eyed. When I see them that is!
Catherine and Diane, when you say venue, what kind of place were you thinking of, ie what facilities would you need, and I will have a think. My yard is quite big and we have a menage and a toilet! and a large yard but I may be a bit way out for some of you as it is in Winkfield near Windsor.
I know what you mean about other people on the yard too, our yard is exactly the same but luckily I hardly ever see anyone. Most of them think I am a completely mad new age traveller (and I haven't even started the clicker training yet!) I get very strange looks when they see me riding Jessie bareback in a headcollar! Seriously though, it is quite difficult sometimes isn't it? At really wobbly times, I start to doubt myself and have to give myself a stern talking to!
This message has been edited by helujess on Aug 8, 2003 11:35 PM
I'm sure Catherine et al will add to this but from what I gather numbers are limited on workshops to facilitate learning (I haven;t made it to one yet, boo hoo!), so a yard with area to work is pretty much all that is needed. The only trouble with a livery yard I would imagine would be 'free-loaders' just wandering in (as they'd have every right to do if they were paying livery!). However I'm sure this has been done on other yards!! Does your yard have a school booking system? Do they allow hire of the manege?
Current Topic - Removing headcollar when turning out........
