Dear everyone, I am wondering if anyone can help me: my poor darling mare is in a bad way at the moment.... there are alot of issues which I am trying to unravel and I am in the process of contacting a healer among other things but I think the following are problems:
her feet!
her feed!
her saddle!
Feet are sort of under way because although she still has natural balance shoes in front (which I think have caused problems, she's had them for 6 months) they are coming off tomorrow morning hooray. I have given my farrier some articles etc to read on barefoot and hopefully he can do something useful, because we have no barefoot trimmers over here and I can't afford to go on a course at the moment. A friend has leant me Shoeing a necessary evil? so have just started reading that.
Saddle is also in hand as I intend to get a balance saddle, have number of a fitter to phone. She needs to muscle up alot more over her back first so I will be doing alot of work in hand once I get to the bottom of her current pain.
Feed is what I want to ask questions about. Can anyone reccommend good books on natural feeding, sugar free diets etc and also natural sources of vitamins and minerals? She lives out 24/7 and I had been giving her a handful of Dodson and Horrell pasture nuts mixed with a small amount of Dengie alfabeet and Spillers Readigrass, some garlic granules and Equivite vit and min supplement. The pasture is full of clover so must be quite nitrogeny, it was seeded for silage 3 years ago so is only now starting to get a balance of grasses and is not really ideal for horses. Luckily it has not been fertilised for 2 years, but the last time it was it was with a nitrogen based fertiliser. This past week she has been steaming on cold wet days, yet she has a summer coat and my shetland who still has half a winter coat and is in foal and really feels the heat on hot days has not been. This could be because her muscles are inflamed, I wonder, but a friend suggested it could be metabolic/ kidney. As a result I have taken her off all her feed and am just giving her carrots and apples (and the grass, obviously). She is not a happy bunny at the moment at all, very spooky, obviously in pain and tense, standing very stiffly....
am phoning Gavin Schofield this morning in the hope of getting to the bottom of this, he really helped a friend of mine with her mare.
So far suggestions of what is wrong with her have been:
foot imbalance
sacroiliac joint out
kidney/ ovary problems
saddle too narrow (although for conventional saddle fitters it is fine)
also she has recurring problems in the poll region according to physios
I will keep you posted!
Thanks
Helen
I have had a whole raft of problems with my horse. I started by getting a healer, who, after a couple of sessions (which made a huge difference), recommended me to get onto the vet she works with. The first thing this vet did was to do a blood test. I think that is the only way of truly seeing what is going on with the horse. Dragon Fly's blood tests showed an extreme cpk count and this has led us to where we are now, well on the way to recovery. We have used multi-vitamin injections, healing, homeopathic remedies, thermal imaging and nutritional supplements. Apart from the excess, I hope I will get the cost of this back on insurance. Jane the vet just works through everything methodically and tells me I have to be patient.
I thought, because I was feeding Dragon FLy Baileys's Lo-cal, that he was getting all his mins & vits. Obviously not, as the multi-vitamins and nuttritional supplements are having such a dramatic effect.
You need the right sort of help. I'm told Gavin Schofield is very good but maybe you need a vet as well?
Sorry not to be able to answer your queries but I am just astounded at the effect that Lindsy (healer) and the vet (Jane) have had on my horse, to say nothing of the +R recommended by Ben.
Don't know where you are so don't know if my vet could help, but check if the healer you are getting can recommend a good and supportive vet.
My horse suffers from allergies and so I have to be very careful about what I feed him and what I put on his skin. He is on a natural diet now of hay, carrot, Swede (occasionally apple and other fruits), garlic and yoghurt and he seems to be in the best health he has been in for a long time I recently read a book called 'A Modern Horse Herbal'. I can't remember the authors name, I'll try to remember to have a look today, but it went through all sorts of herbs that you can feed to you horse, what vit&mineral content each had and when to use them. The author is a vet in Australia and so some of the herbs she mentioned are not available on this side of the world and some of the things she recommended I would never try without a professional opinion first - for the basics though it was very helpful.
As for saddles, you may not know, but Joni Bentley who is an Alexander teacher over here produces her own saddles which are considerably wider than most other conventional saddles. After Crunch had a reaction to a fly bite under his saddle, that eventually turned into an abscess and left a scare under where the saddle sits, I went to great effort to find a saddle that would suit him - I came across Joni's saddle by accident (she only advertises them on her website WWW.BentleyEquestrian.co.uk). The saddle is gel filled so it never needs re-stuffing and it moulds to your horses back each time you use it. Mine also has a key at the front so that I can alter the width of the saddle as the muscles change in shape over the year - I ride Crunch out for hours in his saddle and I've not had any trouble with his back, abscesses or muscle wastage in the two years I have had it.
The best advice I can give you is to question everything anyone tells you.
Sorry, didn't mean to suggest that yoghurt was natural for a horse to eat - I know that horses don't usually eat it. But it does seem to help Crunch - he probably gets a small pot every two weeks.
Thank you Marie and Teresa, much appreciated. Marie, am with you on the question asking thing, problem now has got that I tend to take everything with a pinch of salt, I've heard so much conflicting advice. I thought you might be interested to hear that Geri has been rested for a week, has been off all feed except grass and carrots and had her 2 remaining shoes (natural balance fronts) off this morning..... this afternoon she is a much happier horse. Problem now is because all these things were done at once I don't know what is linked to what.
The reason I asked about natural sources of vits and mins was that the other day I was browsing through the books in my local saddlery and I found one called something like 'The Holistic Horse' which said that many modern supplements consisted of synthetically produced minerals and vitamins that were absorbed differently from naturally occurring ones and actually could interfere with the uptake and utilisation of naturally occurring ones! So they were advising that you shouldn't feed them. Geri has been on a supplement since last summer (Spillers pasture plus when she wasn't getting a hard feed, problem is it's probably full of sugar, and then Spillers Equivite when she was on hard feed). I'm concerned that her field has such an abundance of clover, it must be quite high in nitrogen which can't be doing her kidneys much good.....
Oh well, have sent my form off to Gavin, maybe he will have better ideas. Teresa your experience sounds great, I hope that my vet will listen to me, we will have to see. I'm in Northern Ireland, things tend to be abit behind over here, but my vet is Spanish and worked in a large equine hospital in England for a while so perhaps he might be more willing to listen.... I'll keep you posted!
Marie, I will try and get my hands on the book you mentioned, I've heard of it, so if you think it was useful I will try and get it!
Thanks
Helen
Sorry to hear you've been having problems. I'm afraid I can't help much with the saddle - I had the flocking and balance on mine sorted out by Kay Humphries and all seems to be ok so far but this was fairly recently.
That's great that you've now gone for the barefoot option. I know you've changed other things simultaneously but just remind yourself that treating your horse the way nature intended will only ever be a bad thing if you make the transition irresponsibly. The best web-based resource I know of for barefoot trimming is http://www.barefoothorse.com If you can convince your farrier to trim like this then you will be fine, especially if you can get out and about so that Geri can self-trim. Just a word of warning if you are looking at the Strasser books - a lot of it is very good, a lot of it is very bad and it is hard to tell the difference until you start hearing all the stories of what went wrong. There are some people out there "Strasser"-trimming who seem to have no problems but there are an awful lot who have had lots of problems with the trim - it seems a bit of a lottery but if you stay clear of sole trimming and opening cuts then you should be ok. I'd still recommend reading the books but only in conjunction with eg the above website, talking to Jane Berresford, a KC La Pierre course etc. Just bear in mind that if anyone says a horse can't go barefoot at all, or can't go barefoot without pain and abcessing then there is something wrong - it doesn't have to be like that
There's a thread lower down called "Barefoot" which I've put lots more trimming detail on so I won't repeat it here. But if you have any more questions then feel free to shout. Can't promise to know the answer but I can ask Jane if I don't
As for feeding - I don't know much about this but now instinctively feel I want my horse to live off as-organic-as-possible-grass and for any supplements to be of a dried herb variety. At the moment I use Hilton herbs (well, I did in the winter but trying to get Jak to eat anything outside the lush field is somewhat tricky right now!!) but if I had a problem with his weight then I would tend towards someone like Stephen Ashdown (vet) at Global herbs (Indian herbs company), particularly their liver tonic Restore. I've also heard good reports about Simple Systems and Trinity Consultants - can get you contact details if you want them.
thank you- my farrier read some of the stuff on Strasser trimming and said there were afew issues he really didnt agree with as they went against what he's been taught. I haven't had a chance to discuss it with him properly, but atleast we've got the shoes off now so that's a start. I did have her without shoes for nearly 3 months last year but she was very sore in front and at that stage I didn't know enough about the whole thing, so when the physio who was treating her then told me to get her shod again because it was making her worse I did..... wish I hadn't! I've tried phoning Jane but have had awful problems getting hold of her, I'd wondered if I sent her photos of Geri's feet perhaps she could give some advice for my farrier? I'd be willing to pay her... perhaps you could ask her what she'd think. My problem really is being in Northern Ireland- we do have some open minded people, but the problem is that alot of back people and dentists have jumped on the band wagon because they've realised that there is a big market and unfortunately alot of them aren't great- it's hard to sort the wheat from the chaff except through bitter experience. If my farrier is not willing to do what Jane suggests then I will change to another one who will!
Finally, would you object to me giving the forum address to afew people I know who I think would really get alot out of it? I won't do so until you say it's ok.Thanks!
Helen
Jane works full-time as well as trimming so I know she gets stupidly busy - but keep trying. And I'm sure she'd be happy to look at photos for you.
When you're conditioning the feet try to do lots of walking out on whatever surface she can cope with - stone-free tarmac is best although if she's sore then stick to grass. Gradually you should be able to build up to gravel and anything else you come across. If stoney surfaces are unavoidable and she is sore then try getting some boots - I used Old Macs for a while and had no problems (am happy to lend them to you if Geri is a size 3, but Jak's got little QH feet!). A lot of the "soreness" Jak experienced was anticipation of soreness on tracks where it had hurt him once before so the more you can avoid potentially sore surfaces the better. The reason Jak was a bit sore was due to lack of hard standing in his field and so he was standing in wet mud all the time and was easily bruised - if a farrier tells you November is the best time to go barefoot then don't believe him! But now he lives on a well-drained field he's fine on any surface.
As for publicising the site - please do, the more the merrier. I havent advertised it widely, just hoping it will spread slowly via word of mouth to those people who really want something behaviour-related.
Geri has now had back shoes off for 10 weeks and during that time we did a good bit of walking around the farm on dirt tracks, grass and smooth tarmac with relatively few problems. THe fronts came off last Tuesday and I've been leaving well alone until I talk to Gavin Schofield (tomorrow)...
Her field has been pretty dry up until the weekend because we have had the most amazing weather over here, infact it was like concrete for quite a while which probably helped the back feet! It has become soft in the last few days but still reasonably firm. I took her for a walk down the road (smooth stone free tarmac) last night and she seemed pretty comfortable, my only concern being that she was trying to put her front foot down toe first. I agree with you, the problem I had with her last year was that where I kept her she had to walk across gravel everytime she left the field and she was very sore. Hopefully this will not be a problem this time because the road her field opens on to is very smooth and pretty quiet so we can happily walk up and down it! I will try Jane again. Thanks for the offer of the boots, I'd been wondering about the Old Macs because they seemed more reasonably priced. However if I'm going to be going down the Balance saddle route then I'll not be riding her for a while anyway till i improve her back and since she seems comfortable enough at the moment with walking on the road we might get away without them.
I will start to spread the forum address around....
Thanks again, I have found this forum so useful and a real comfort to get the opportunity to discuss things with like minded people!
Helenxx
Depending on who you ask the foot should land either flat or very slightly heel first. So if she's landing toe first then there may be a bit of an inbalance and/or sore heel. Most farriers leave the heel a bit long compared with a wild horse and so they normally need to come down a bit (although not necessarily as low as the Strasser 3-3.5 cm). Farriers tend to get upset about that as they worry about the hoof-pastern axis but since so many horses have long underslung heels you actually end up with an unchanging or even improved hoof-pastern axis by shortening the heel - ie you're not actually lowering it.
Just thought I'd up date here. Gavin says Geri's problems are deep within her forelegs.... hence postural problems through chest, neck and back.
The amazing thing is that in the last few weeks she has started to relax, is moving better and standing better.... I am tempted to say that she is starting to stretch her neck more instead of scrunching everything up... and today I was poo-picking and she and the pony were playing. For the first time since I've had her she was skipping up the field, kicking her forelegs out in front of her and really using herself! The pony does this all the time, and so did her old companion. THis is the first time I've seen her do this, normally when she is playing the front end is very close to the ground and she bucks and twists alot... this just looked so light! I'm sure you know what I mean when I say she was kicking out and up into the air with her forelegs, like scissors.
I'm really hoping this is a good sign, and the start of more improvement. I've really just been letting her be, just spending time in the field with her, not even clicker training or anything. Can't wait to start and do more though, but I want to give her every chance first!
Have also got a book called THe Organic Horse- interesting reading.
Better go and do some work!
Helenxx
Are you still having probs with your mare? In your original message you said that she had recurring poll problems. Well this is a very basic suggestion but it is linked in with these types of problems and possibly her back! have you checked her teeth? See I told you i was teaching you to suck eggs!!
Another suggestion is that possibly her atlas is out of alignment, the way to check this is to have her standing square and facing forward place your fingers in the gap between her jaw and her atlas. It looks like an indentation, you find glands there, near where the throat lash goes. If you can fit more fingers in one side compared to the other. Then it is poss. that a mis-aligned atlas is the cause. Any chiropractor or physio can fix this for you.
Remeber that back problems take a long time to recover from, building up wasted muscle in this area can take 6months to a year to sort out!
Good Luck! See you at the Equine Insights Symposium!
Thanks Luce! Hope you are well.
I will go and examine her now to see: she has improved an awful lot in the last few weeks, she was trotting across the field the other day and looked so light in front, better than in ages. The only thing now is she appears to be unlevel behind ocassionally in trot, she's not stepping under as much with her right hind, but this is not always the case. The original damage caused by the nasty saddle was discovered in November 2001, she wasn't ridden until March 2002 and then only light hacking at weekends in a newly fitted saddle, but I am beginning to suspect that this was too soon and because it was fitted to a damaged back she has not recovered as she ought- what do you think?
Can't wait to see you again, glad you are on-line!!
Helenx
I recently read a book called 'A Modern Horse Herbal'. I can't remember the authors name, I'll try to remember to have a look today, but it went through all sorts of herbs that you can feed to you horse, what vit&mineral content each had and when to use them. The author is a vet in Australia and so some of the herbs she mentioned are not available on this side of the world and some of the things she recommended I would never try without a professional opinion first - for the basics though it was very helpful.