I have just seen this board for the 1st time having offended someone on the IH one as I was requesting help with starting CT!
After much thought & reading I have decided to use CT with my horse but I dont know where to start and I am afraid of getting it wrong. Is there anyone in the south east who may offer us a practical lead & help us get started?
It's great to hear that you are interested in CT. I personally think the best people to contact are Company of Horses (they are South England too)www.companyofhorses.com They helped me start of with CT.
Also, I recommend that you do a bit of reading about it first to get an idea about how you go about training with CT. A book I started with was 'Don't Shoot the Dog' by Karen Pryor and a book called 'How dogs learn' is also very helpful. The first is a teaching/training book and isn't geared towards any particular animal (it is really easy to read ) and the second is geared around dogs, but most of the principles can be used when training horses too.
When you read around you will notice that there are two different branches of CT, the pure CTers who only use positive reinforcement in the training situations and the people who combine positive and negitive reinforcement - I use pure CT as far as I can
It is a fantastic experience to have your horse offering behaviours to you in a grassed paddock with no head collar or leadrope, for a scrap of carrot...enjoy
Thanks. I have emailed CoH but I am being impatient! The trouble is that they are about 3hrs away from me and I am on a very tight budget!
I have heard that the use of both +R & -R should be avoided is this not the case?
Is there no chance that CT will leave you with a horse that is always looking for a treat? Just trying to get all the facts before we start. (he is confused enough asit is!)
Great to hear from you. I'd echo everything Marie says. Horse often pick up CT much more quickly than the trainer when you are starting out and so the better equipped you can be with knowledge of behaviour then the more successful you will be in your training. If you look through some of the older threads on here then you will get more ideas as to what we are all doing. Most of us on here prefer to work with "what feels right" rather than following a step-by-step guide so I hope you don't find us unhelpful if we don't give you steps to follow, that's not how it's meant to seem! CT works so much better if you can think your way round things and not just do what other people have done and so that's what we all try to encourage.
Regarding the treats, no this doesn't happen. There may be a bit of mugging to start with but the horse soon works out that mugging doesn't work but touching the target (or whatever behaviour you are training) does. When you start seeing this from the horse's point of view (well trying to!) then it makes you wonder why the horse would ever bother to mug you - it doesn't achieve anything, as long as you are careful not to inadvertantly reward mugging.
Regarding the -R vs +R there are all sorts of reasons why they shouldn't be mixed as a general rule - typically the -R would take over and achieve the behaviour leaving the subsequent +R somewhat meaningless. see also the article by Karen Pryor in one of the old threads. But obviously there is the occasional exception to every rule. This is something that would be covered in the workshops - I couldn't say here what sort of occasion would merit -R because it would depend on the horse/trainer/situation etc. But the majority of the time I find that -R adds nothing to my training sessions whereas thinking and improving my horse's motivation makes a world of difference.
I'm also based in the south-east (just south of Guildford) and would be keen to get some sort of south-east Behaviour/CT group going, in a similar way to the north-west (it's ok Sam, I still want to come to your workshops though!). I'm getting an increasing number of private emails asking for help and so I've been wondering whether we have enough people interested to organise a CofH 2-day workshop (if of course Ben is willing and able to come here!). This would incorporate the basics of equine behaviour (and CT if that was what everyone wanted). This could be followed up (or even preceded) by discussions in a pub, field trips to see what everyone was up to with their horses etc etc Whatever people would find useful.
So any of you in the South-East who would be interested, please let me know - preferably by posting here but you can email me on cb4@mssl.ucl.ac.uk if you're feeling shy.
Catherine
This message has been edited by Brocksopp on May 7, 2003 12:09 PM
>>>Thanks. I have emailed CoH but I am being impatient! The trouble is that they are about 3hrs away from me and I am on a very tight budget!
Don't worry about distance, I'm situated in Lancashire and they have been to see me. Honestly, the price is very very reasonable and I'm sure you would get loads out of any visit you had
>>>I have heard that the use of both +R & -R should be avoided is this not the case?
If you look through the threads on here, there are a couple of threads on this subject and the use of CT with Pareli (sp). I personally stay clear of it for reasons stated in these threads.
>>>Is there no chance that CT will leave you with a horse that is always looking for a treat? Just trying to get all the facts before we start. (he is confused enough asit is!)
It really depends on how you approach it and how deap you want to go into it. you could use CT to teach just one thing and then never use it again or you could use it for most of your training. I use CT quite a lot now simply becasue both me and my horse love doing it and it is so much fun, however I do ride out conventionally at the moment (although I don't use whips and spurs).
It also depends on your timing and how well you break things down for your horse to learn. My horse can distinguish between a CT session and a normal 'lets ride out' session. I always have set lessons which I end with a cue (usually 'all gone'), I have done this because I don't want my horse (who is very enthusiastic with CT) to only ever do something for a treat. You will hear stories of how training with food creates a biting horse...again this is about how you train your horse with treats not the actual treats themselves.
I was the same when I started CT, but honestly the worst thing you could really do is reward the wrong behaviour which isn't a huge issue if you don't keep rewarding it, but even if you train something you didn't want to you can untrain it again (Don't shoot the dog goes into methods of doing this)
The best way to learn is to make mistakes and CT allows that and it allows you to use your own imagination on how to train tasks.
I started CT fist by using my voice - when I realised it worked I stopped because I didn't want to confuse my horse with my voice. I then got a clicker the week before my first CoH workshop and did targeting with my horse. I was shocked at how fast my horse took to it
Thanks, you have just given me an idea. Crack chews the knot on his rope when he is tied up, anoying habit but it keeps him entertained.
So my plan....could I maybe tie a rope of a different colour next to him & then reward him with a mock click & treat when he touches it. This could then become his target?
That's exactly what this board is all about - bounce ideas off us!!
Please don't think I'm being negative but this is exactly what I meant by horses picking up the game more quickly than the trainers. If Crack thinks that nibbling the rope is what he is supposed to do in order to get treats then imagine (a) if you ever decided you wanted him to stop nibbling the rope and (b) what would happen if you were leading him to the field, he nibbled his rope and then got really angry because you didn't have a treat for him. He wouldn't understand that nibbling the rope NOW is not a good idea. This is the sort of situation in which CT CAN cause mugging but it is down to trainer error.
So just to tweak your plan slightly, why not use a target that he doesn't see at non-CT times. How about the lid of a supplement container or some dog toy? Then it's much easier to end the session and for you to decide when the session will start again. Once you are more practiced with the targetting then you could change to a different object if that was what you wanted to do. If you don't have a clicker you could use voice or maybe the clicky bit of a biro.
Right well I seem to have a bit of a shopping list appearing, book, toy.....
Ok. Tell me if I have got this wrong. There are 2 reasons that I have decided to go with CT a) I want to hav fun with Crack b) I would actually quite like him to go in a trailer in under 2 days!!!! I presume that I would eventually use the target to encourage him to do thing in & around the trailer?
In a kind of 1 foot on ramp, touch target get reward, then on to 2 feet etc obviously broken down into very small pieces.
We've all been there! There's even a thread called "learning from our mistakes" further down! But I hope this illustrates how you've thought about things, made a mistake and learnt from it rather than being told the answer in the first place. Isn't it better to make that sort of mistake here and now before jumping in at the deep end?
Anyway, yes you will definitely have a lot of fun with Crack and CT. With the loading do you mean that you want him to load in two days' time?? If so then no, it's not a quick fix and it will probably take longer than that because of all the groundwork you will need to put in place. But if you mean can CT turn a reluctant loader into a horse who just can't wait to get into the trailer because it's been made such a positive experience then yes, that will definitely happen if you train in little stages (and yes, the sort of stages you suggested but don't even think about trying them until after your CoH visit).
I know things can seem slow to start with but it's definitely worth taking your time so that you can reap the rewards later.
Other potential targets - empty plastic drinks bottle, plastic box - don't feel you need to go shopping!
This message has been edited by Brocksopp on May 7, 2003 1:19 PM
Just to reassure you Emma, my horse wouldn't load, I tried many of the conventional routes and then I stubbled accross CT.
I used a target to get Crunch into a trailer and at the last workshop about a month ago Crunch walked into the trailer with no headcollar or restraint, with grass all around just to touch his cone. When he walked back out of the front he trotted to the back ramp to go back in again. We are still learning with the loading and every now and then we go a few steps back, but I would never have imagined that my horse (the horse that would run off with the biggest butchest men, with or without pressure halter becasue he didn't want to load) would walk into a trailer in favour of going off to eat grass
It is not a quick fix, but the results I am sure are long lasting
No I am not looking for a quick fix, 2 days is how long it took us to load him to get him back from a trip to the vets, he is very phbic inside the trailer so the actual loading is a symptom of the actual problem.
Catherine for your support & Marie for giving me hope.....cant wait to finish work now so I can goplay!!
On another note well done for the DG, it is very mature, friendly and helpful. Without the bitchiness and pointless threads on others that I have visited. I guess it says something about the people who use it and now doubt their horses.
You poor things!! Ok, sorry - it's amazing how many people do ask us "I need to get to a show on Sunday - can I use CT to get him to load?"!!! aaaaarrrgggggghhhhhh!
But in your case I'm sure it will all be fine - let Marie's Crunchie be your role model!
Crack will be motivated with a food treat, however, although he does not get treats adlib he does have a carrott to say good night, when he is turned out and when he comes to me in the field.
Thinking this could cause a problem, once given for no effort then suddenly have to be worked for. Could I maybe offer him mints (which I tend not to give) as CTing rewards or would this not offer enough distinction.
Just as long as you distinguish between a CT lesson and any other time. Also with a CT session the treat would follow the click, the click is the marker that the behaviour at that time is what you want so if he gets treats at other times he shouldn't get confused.
The way I work it with Crunch is that he has to walk two steps away from me or look away, or put his head to the ground etc before he gets a treat outside a ct lesson - these where trained initially with CT though. The reason I do this is so that he doesn't just mug me for treats. Make sure when you are giving your horse any treats he is doing something that you want and you are not rewarding an undesirable behaviour.
Also, you can use what ever your horse finds rewarding as a treat and you can vary them in the sessions. i have nicer treats for when Crunch does something extra special and I even use alfalfa as a treat. you could also use scratches for treats if you can find his itchy spots
If you do find that he is getting confused though, you can always stop the non-ct treats and leave them only for ct sessions.
...for your comments about our site. (Although I should probably apologise for any anti-CT feelings that anyone receives on the IHDG as I'm not entirely blameless there!)
As for the carrots at non-CT times, I wouldn't worry unless he starts to get demanding. I always give Jak a bit of a scratch when I check him in the field but he does tend to get demanding. In which case I start to expect a head down or a back-up before each scratch. And then when he's got out of the barging habit I get a bit slack with the training. And we go in a bit of a cycle. As long as you are aware of who is training who....!
well we tried, and after a few minutes Crack was touching little crack(a stuffed horse that has been sitting in the front of my car, it was the only thing i had!!!)
We really did have fun, very impressed at the entertainment value and I am sure the best is yet to come.
Just overcoming my shyness to let you know I'd also be very interested in a SE behaviour/CT group (I'm not far from Guildford either). A CofH workshop would be wonderful - I looked into arranging a visit last year but ran out of money big time!
Sorry for butting in but I just wanted to reinforce what Emma has said about the group... It is such a relief to find a group of people who are so open minded and positive in their outlook. I have got so much out of this discussion group since Dee passed the address on to me. And I'd like to say a special Thank you to you two, Marie and Catherine, because you both write such great stuff. So
THANK YOU!!!!!!
Emma, you have stumbled on to a great discussion group, I'm sure you will get an awful lot out of it, I know I have.
And on a finishing note, I still give Geri carrots when I go to say Good morning/ Good night... but we have to have a kiss on the nose first! I work on the principle that nothing in this life is free- but I now have a horse that loves a kiss on the nose! Geri is an Irish Sport Horse but I also have a shetland. My policy with her from the start has been absolutely no food from the hand except when clicker training, and she is only allowed to approach her bucket to eat carrots from in the field when I put it down and say OK. She is not at all nippy, and only began to show signs when the people whose land I rent began to feed her carrots (I subsequently asked them to stop, and just to pet her instead). The reason they caused the nippiness to start was that they went into the field and gave her carrots regardless of what she was doing the second before she got the carrot, so at first she was fine and then she began to anticipate the carrot and was sniffing at their hands etc.. they didn't mind this and so she got rewarded for it. It's easy to see how nippy behaviour begins, but it is also easy to see how to prevent it when you break down the learning theory going on. So there you are! Better go and do some work now. And Gavin Schofield is ringing me at one, can't wait. Will let you know how it goes on the other thread about helping me!
Have a lovely weekend folks,
Helenxx
...to Helen for her comments - hey come on, you write useful/interesting stuff too!! As does everyone!
....to Louise for starting to post - excellent!! And glad to hear you're near Guildford too. I'll let you know if I get enough interest in workshops but if not then we can always get together anyway. Where is your yard?
And well done Emma for getting started - glad it's going well and look forward to hearing all about it
Hi Alexis, my yard mate and I were thinking of hosting one in the Spring and (I think) I mentioned this to Ben the last time I saw him, although nothing has yet been arranged. Perhaps we could organise it together?
Dear Emma just to add to the advice. Before training anything using CT just make sure allow your horse the time to learn the association that click means reward first.
All the best
another Emma
I'm just about to put up a new thread about a coh workshop. As soon as I've sorted out a new email address (ie a non-work account!) it will be up, I hope this week.
) and the second is geared around dogs, but most of the principles can be used when training horses too.