I was watching a display yesterday where a horse was cued to lay on its side. I find this an increasingly uncomfortable thing to watch, this having started back at HOYS where the horses lay down whilst the trainer placed a foot on their side.

To me it feels like an abuse of training even if R+ is used to train this.

Hiya

I guess it depends on the horse, the owner and the relationship between the two. I too went to HOYS last year and was very disturbed by the display of so called 'natural horsemanship'. I didn't feel that the horses where one bit happy and therefore I feel that to take advantage of them in such a way was rather unethical (my personal opinion).

However, having owned my horse for a very long time and having, what I consider to be a very strong relationship to the point where (as with this morning) Crunchie will let me walk up to him in the field whilst he is lying down, put fly spray on him and suncream, even sit by his side or on him if I have time, without any inclanation of panicking or wanting to get away, then I may not consider teaching him to lie down unethical - just as long as it was used with the upmost thought so that the horse isn't put into a situation where it feels threatened.

I think the problem is that people do abuse it and want to teach it for the wrong reasons. There is no way that I would teach Crunch to lie down because I felt I wanted to dominate him in anyway, if I did teach it, it would just be another thing for him to think about.

I would never suggest to anyone that they should teach their horse to do this becasue I think it is something that the owner will know (should know) is right to teach to that horse, for the given reasons in the correct situation.

Mx

Uh oh! I don't think I feel very comfortable with this either - I have to ask why someone feels the need to express their superiority to the extent that the horse is on the floor and the person has his foot on the horse! Just a by-product of the arrogance of humans, I guess?

I think I would have to see how comfortable the horse looked at being asked to lie down - I saw someone at HOYS last year doing what sounds a similar display and everyone (except me!) was oohing and ahhing at the fact he was able to make them all lie down etc etc. None of his horses looked happy though, and several were trying to get back up before he wanted them to but were made to lie back down again. I didn't applaud at the end.

Ha, Meera..that's exactly how I reacted to it too!

I should have added, that if I was going to teach a horse to lie down it would be done by free shaping - I would never encourage it with any -R. If the horse was then happy to do it of it's own free will without any force at all, and was not distressed in anyway by it..I would probably be happy (again if not abused) that it can be ethical.

Mx

I think the crucial thing here is the trainer putting his foot on the horse. It brings a whole new aspect into it. A horse needs a heck of a lot of trust to perform something like that, but the image to me is spoilt by this 'I'm King of the Castle...' potrayal!

gosh wish i'd been sat with you guys

I was on a yard outing to HOYS and was the only one sat there not thinking it was wonderful like some old misery guts.

The display yesterday did not involve any feet on sides but I suspect my HOYS experience has coloured my views.

The HOYS display I saw had horses offering to get up earlier than the trainer would like.

I was with my friend who is completely the opposite to me when it comes to horses - she was doing all the ohh and ahhing and I was just shaking my head! The night I went the horses where even lunging at the guy trying to bite him, ears back and tails swishing with frustration - he made it look like part of the act...not a pretty site!

I didn't actually enjoy much of what I saw at HOYS last year and swore I'd never go again!

Mx

I was there on Sunday with a bunch of people from my old yard who were all looking on in admiration and there was much oohing and ahhing. I couldn't bring myself to ooh and ahh at something that saddened me so much, I have to say. At least two of the greys were showing aggression, and the chesnut pony kept getting up and being made to lie down again. And not a single horse had their ears forward or were showing any interest in their surroundings at all.

Marie, I wouldn't want to watch it again either.

Do you mind me asking who the trainer was?

Do you know Jan, I can't remember his name. I think he was a german guy but it wasn't the guy who did "Dancing with Horses". I'd never heard of him before.

I nearly said I'd look in the progamme but I didn't get one last year becasue they where so highly priced.

Mx

Well, not sure that I can put his name on here, but you can have his initials - JFP!