I am sure that you have been through all this before! So I apologise, but would really like to know more about this trim. Can anyone either explain or point me in the right direction?
You could join the Yahoo group on http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BarefootUK/
but you'll need to register to join in. There is an awful lot of discussion for and against methods and what horses are suitable for barefoot.
Some practitioners think that any horse could be barefoot, others think not. One of the original proponents [who actually started a lot of us down this route] Dr. Strasser, is now considered to be far too aggressive in her trimming. I personally use my farrier. I do not think that a course of up to 3 days equips me with sufficient knowledge to be able to trim my horses properly and I prefer someone who is sympathetic farrier to do the trims for me. My shetlands have been shoeless for many years. One was remedially shod once as she developed laminitis but she has since been unshod and fine with pasture management. The big draft is also barefoot as he used to trip a lot. He has strong feet so he immediately when barefoot with no problems. You are advised to do it gradually but in my case there was no need. Hope this helps.
Thanks for that i will have a look. My horses are unshod already but was wondering how the trim compared to Strasser, natural balance and traditional methods.I think I am getting a bit confused by it all. Appreciate the help.
Lucy.
Another good place to look is Marjorie Smith's website http://www.barefoothorse.com/ In the intro she talks about her journey through various methods.
Also if you want to find out about the basics of the NB trim, check out gene ovnicek's website http://www.hopeforsoundness.com/ - there's a Natural balance tutorial on there
Kc la Pierre's method is based on similar principles to the NB trim, althoguh differs in the details of how the trim is applied placing more emphasis on the integrity of the inner hoof wall and less on rockering for breakover.
Personally I like the KC and NB trims much better than strasser (having been there and done it!)- they both base their trims on the latest finding s on the structure and function of the hoof- especially Bob Bowker's work -a Prof. from Michigan University- check out his paper as well- "physiological trimming for a healthy foot" on http://cvm.msu.edu/news/press/phytrim.htm
Thanks Carol, my ponies are trimmed traditionally, and I have noticed that my mare has started tripping and although she isn't lame I am concerned about this. My farrier won't have anything to do with natural balance. (have been trying for over a year to convince him otherwise.) He also dosen't feel that there is a problem. Have managed to get their shoes off which has helped but now feel that I need a bit more info about all the trims out there. I can bash on about natural balance til the cows come home, but am now feeling that perhaps it isn't the best trim out there and want to find out more about the others so I can try and make a more informed descision.
presuming that your horse is not tripping for any reason other than it's feet trimming, then there are a couple of things you can look at when you compare your feet to the pictures on the sites that people have given you.
Firstly where is your horse's footprint, underneath him or too far forward? Many farrier trims seem to produce "underslung heels" (some of the farriers are not as far forward along the barefoot road at the moment) With underslung heels his footprint can be anything up to half a foot length in front of where it should be.
The second thing you could look at is the length of his toe. Are his toes too long? do they need trimming?
Either of these 2 things could cause your horse to trip.
The best site, I believe, for a beginer is www.barefoothorse.com
there are lots of explanations and also lots of photos of actual feet. You will probably be able to compare your feet with those pictured and have some idea as to whether you have a good trim at present or not.
If you want another nice site to look at try www.tribeequus.com
Thanks for all that info Pat.
Not sure if her heels are underslung, will check....
My farrier has tendency too "dump" the toe, the hoof looks very pretty not sure how balanced it is though. She has broken hoof/pastern axis, but this seems to conformational as I have had her since she was 2(now 9)
and this hasn't changed. Could be that shes never had her feet trimmed correctly! I always know if my farrier has trimmed a particular horse his style is very distinctive. I have always thought he was very good.In the 15 or so years that I have used him, none of my horses have gone lame through poor trimming/balancing. In fact I do feel that he kept my beautiful old thoroughbred(RIP) sound and happy for as long as possible. Still having said all this, he does a traditional trim that does not take into account the physiology of the foot and she does have decidedly contracted frogs. And he has not resolved this problem with her tripping up on hacks. It could well be that I am worrying over nothing. I have a tendency to do this, Caspar told me herself when I foolishly tried to put fly repellent on her for the first time this year. Seems I was more concerned about the flies than she was. Poor soul, she has such difficult student to deal with. Must be exhausting for her.....
If you look at her foot, are her heels down low towards the frog (just above the sole), and roughly level with the back of the frog, or are they further forward? Is there more foot behind the widest part compared to in front? To work out the latter, you find the widest part of the foot at the quarters (tip.. find the middle line of the frog from the cleft at the back to the tip and put a straight line (eg ruler or rasp along it and then move it out parallel till it meets the junction of the sole/white line- this should be the widest part of the foot in the quarters).. draw a line across the foot at the widest part and check what the balance is between the distance from this line to the front of the foot, and the distance from this line towards the back of the foot/heels.
Contracted heels can be difficult to deal with and can be caused by a number of things- some of which can involve tripping. They can be just due to shoeing, and decontract quickly once the shoes are off, or they can be much more recalcitrant (like my mare, who has contracted heels even though she's only had two sets of shoes on in her life)
Can be because the horse isnt loading the heels properly for some reason - maybe trimming isnt encouraging heel first landing, or maybe some pain in the heel area of the foot. Problem is that its a bit of a vicous circle- if not heel landing, heels contract, maybe causing a little pain, which then encourages the horse to avoid heel landing.. which can cause more contraction etc....(which is what has happened to my mare)
If there is more foot in front of the widest part (eg from trimming) this can delay breakover and discourage heel landing as well.
How about joining one of the specialist discussion groups and posting some piccys- the one I have found useful and more open minded than some is the yahoo group on Barefoothorsecare (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/barefoothorsecare/).. some interesting people on there and you may get a variety of views
Thanks Carol,
I am already on that group, haven't plucked up the courage yet to post anything. I would say that her feet are 50/50 at the widest part. Just in ok bracket I guess! She's had her shoes off for about 4 months now but haven't noticed her frog increasing in size yet... Am I being too impatient?
It all depends!
My gelding decontracted very quickly; my mare didnt decontract at all for 2.5 years- until i started treating her for fungal infections and switched to the KC la Pierre trim. And I hadnt understood the importance of heel landing until recently- this seems to be helping as well. Now she's decontracted a little, but because she's not getting enough (or any!) movement just right now because of her injury, progress is very slow.
The poeple on barefoothorse care seem to be very helpful (apart from the war between tree and karen etc!)-- I woudnt worry about posting...
I'd agree with everything Pat and Carol have said, regarding the underslung heels, contraction and websites. Jak's been slowly decontracting for just over a year now and still has a way to go. But we're in no rush, he can hack out comfortably and when I have time to put in more hours' riding then the changes are more noticeable. He's been injured and on field-rest for the last month and there are tiny set-backs in terms of contraction but nothing I feel the need to worry about. Certainly nothing I change my trim for.
Jak has underslung heels the way so many shod horses do. To address this we've been doing tiny amounts of heel rasping (very little needed usually) and mainly just backing up the toe (rasping vertically as on Marjorie Smith's site but not back into the white line). Gradually the new horn growth is becoming steeper and the foot is becoming less flat. Obviously it's not just about shortening the heels but just as much about moving the whole foot backwards into position.
Did you see the previous barefoot thread as we talked about this there as well? Said similar things though but may give you a slightly different perspective.
Just an aside for those of you doing KC's trim - I know different people have different experiences but in the end I never bothered with cleantrax or anything else. I found that as Jak's feet decontracted there was more thrushy material. But it's mostly in the dry weather when the ground is hard and not when the ground is wet as you might expect. So in Jak's case I feel that the thrush is old and is repairing itself as the heels decontract. If it caused any problems then I would treat it but since it isn't I'm not bothering and it seems to be improving itself. (Carol, I'm not suggesting this would have worked for you, I know it was different for you! Just mentioning this in case people are interested...)
Pat - great to see you here. Sorry, I never got round to emailing you about teeth again. But the answers I got were basically that the wild horse skulls that had been studied suggested ages of 20+ or 30+ and no problems with the teeth. No-one could give me any reason why a domestic horse out 24/7 with the right shrubs to chew on and ridden bitless should need much teeth rasping. I've decided I want to find a dentist to look and not touch (unless anything is causing pain) and re-assess every few months to see what changes take place naturally. Just need to find one now but will let you know if anything comes up.
Re the hoof infections- Mara's were not thrushy, but strange (very smelly sweet rotting smell, frogs crumbled into something like grated parmesan cheese) and MUCH worse in hot weather. Cleantrax was useless for me...I tried it between april and july last year (4 treatments) but the infection kept spreading- last august (which was warm and dry) it went into the white line as well, and she eventually had to have her hoof walls resected.
The key for me was daily treatments, and making sure whatever I was using went up into the deep cleft in her frogs (using make-up removal pads soaked in the stuff)... this made her improve sufficiently to start to ride her, and the added movement helped enourmously..
Re teeth- Deb Bennett (who, amongst many other things, teaches anatomy to equine dentists at the Idaho School and in Australia)is currently studying this very thing- looking at teeth of wild horses, and also teeth from horses kept in various ways and trying to correlate the need for dentistry with the way the horse is kept.. When she's over here in September she's going to spend a week or so at Hadrian's wall looking at Roman horse skulls. She did a quick reccy last year and was fascinated to see the differences between the teeth of the "higher bred horses" (presumably those kept by the bosses, and maybe not in a "natural way"; similar teeth problems to our present day horses)with the teeth of the cobs etc used by the troops (fine! - No major problems).
I'll ask her about what she feels is the minimum requirement for teeth maintainance.
BTW my dentist(trained in Idaho) will not do teeth unless she feels they need doing. She has a look and then decides if there is anything to be done. Our 48 year old donkey went 2 years without any problems and just had a minor tidy up last month. I doubt in her whole life she's had much done- and she has great teeth at the age of 48!
Hi Lucy,
from your description you may well have contracted heels and poor frog quality. Not any great disaster as many other horses also have these problems. The thing is that if these problems continue they are basically not helping your horse and you may well be setting him up for other problems. To ride him barefoot successfully you have to get rid of them. You can still ride barefoot with the problems but if you start to get them reversed now them you may well be setting your horse up for better quality feet, perhaps a longer and more trouble free life,less lameness footwise etc, well worth doing for his sake.
First point is your frogs. If your frogs are infected with either thrush or more likely fungus then I doubt that you will ever decontract your feet. Basically until you get them to decontract you will not start to improve the quality of your feet.
Can you go to www.barefoothorse.com and click on "more topics" and read about fungus.
When the weather comes wet again, (probably in week or so) look at your feet and see if you see the sweet, cheesy stuff. You are not looking for this in the deep grooves each side of the frog but between the bulbs of the heels and also the central sulchus.
Pull the bulbs appart, gently and really get in there with something like a cotton bud. I will be suprised if you find nothing.
As far as treatment goes I personally have tried the following,
borax soaks which seems to help
clean trax which does not
life data disinfectant which does not
bee propolis which helped
cannesten human thrush cream.
I tried the cannesten on the basis that this was similar to vaginal thrush. It did not help at all. Actually buying it from the chemist was hilarious as the pharmacist was trying to discuss my thrush problem in a hushed voice and I was trying to explain about Columbus' frogs.
Regular treatment is the key to success, twice a day, something like the make up pad that Carol has described works well. When it won't stay in any longer you are making progress. You are looking at weeks here. By the way keep a seperate hoofpick/brush for Casper. You don't want to spread anything.
Whilst you are on that page of barefoothorse.com scroll down to "navicular" and look at the first photo of the dark brown shod horse. See the underslung heels?
You are looking for your horse to land heel first on nice strong heels, with a nice robust frog and digital cushion underneath it to start absorbing the shock.
Think how that poor dark brown horse would land. Poor thing doesn't stand a chance.
Carol would be interested to hear what products were successful for you on Mara's feet, and also which were not. Does anyone think that fungus is horses is a bit like thrush in humans, ie that some horses just seem to be prone to it no matter what and it just passes some horses by.
Hi all
just catching up after my "holiday" in Newmarket! Mara's surgery went OK.. but i guess I won't know for some months whether it has been successful. She's walking Ok, so i guess that's a start.
First of all I ought to say that Mara's hoof infections weren't thrush- some form of other, dryer, crumbly infection, much worse in hot damp weather. I think I have tried most things on the market, to be honest (and some more unorthodox things!)
Here's my list of things i tried:
Cleantrax: not successful- but maybe because I only used it (as instructed)once a month for 4 months
Borax- used this over the winter. Seemed to keep the infection at bay, but I wasnt 100% convinced.
Life data hoof disinfectant - not very effective
Thrushbuster and Thrush magic- not used for sufficiently long to tell, but didnt have an immediate result
Virkon- used this extensively over the winter - soaked Mara's feet every night she came in from the field. Although sold mainly as a disinfectant for foot dipping/cleaning surfaces etc, its also an ingredient of some pet shampoo, and was for a while marketted as a mud fever soak. Seemed pretty good!
Zinc sulphate: eg Hoof and Horn from NAF - The NAF stuff is a 10% solution of Zinc sulphate with coulouring and surfactant. You can get it 70x more cheaply by buying sheep foot rot zinc sulphate in its pure form from an agricultural merchants and diluting it 1:10 in water and adding fairy liquid as the surfactant (the brand I bought was called "Golden Hoof" and the manufacturers supply the base ingredient- zinc sulphate- to NAF). This seems pretty effective against Mara's infection. I asked Chris Day about this and he thought it was a good thing to use. Soak for 20 minutes or so.
Fungatyrol from Equine America- essentially pine tar- think this worked as well
Variuous atheletes foot creams - not used for long enough to form a verdict (too expensive!)
keratex nail hole disinfectant_ only tried once -disaster, as i tried it when Mara's cracks were really deep- they must have been up into the sensetive tissue because she went nuts and ran round the field biting her heels! OOPS!
My eventual strategy was to use two or three things with different base ingredients and sphere of action - one in the morning and another in the evening- painted on and packed into the frog clefts (or soaking instead if I was using Virkon or zinc sulphate)- on the basis that these types of odd hoof infections are usually a mixed population of fungi and bacteria. I think my failings early on were due to just using one thing, and killing only a subset of the mixed population allowing the others to go rampant (think this is what happened with cleantrax).
My eventual "favourites" were/are zinc sulphate or Virkon soaks (alternating) and Fungatrol or zinc suplphate painted on and stuffed in the frog cracks...However, I have a feeling that most things might have worked applied at the rate I was applying them (2 or 3 times a day for 6 months!)
Yippee!- we dont have any cracks to stuff any more (they were deeper than the hoof pick initially)- and finally she is starting to grow a "diamond" on the back of her frogs. But I do have to be really vigilant in hot damp weather, or the infection comes back.
thanks for all that info Carol.
Glad to hear that Mara got through the op OK. Fingers crossed now for you.
I realise you were not treating thrush which was why I was wanting your input. I too have this "thing" which is especially bad in warm damp weather on one horse.
Per Charlie I have recently started on NAF hoof and sole.
Will try and buy the Zinc direct from agric store next time to save money.
Can you define "soak" please?
On the label of NAF it said to keep of the skin. I put some in a Davis boot (about half a beaker full) but as the horse moved around it clearly irritated his skin.
Also where did you get Virkon from? is this the brand name? Does it come from the agric store?
Like you I have had no success with life data disinfectant and I am disappointed at the results of clean trax on this particular fungus.
Many thanks
Pat
re. the zinc sulphate - I actually soak with quite a lot in a hoof boot for about 20 minutes- it definalty gets on the skin- but Mara doesnt seem to react to it. For sheep, they mix a huge foot bath about 6" deep and have the sheep standing in it- so I guess it isnt vey irritating to skin of sheep at least! However,if your horse reacts to the NAF stuff then maybe the soaking isnt such a good idea.
Virkon (trade name- made by Antec international)is a broad spectrum anti-viral/anti-bacterial/ anti-fungal disinfectant usually available at any agricultural merchants. If your horse has sensetive skin it may be worth a trial patch first- although as it is/was marketed for mud fever topical treatment, it may be kinder on the skin than zinc sulphate. I did check with Antec before starting the soaking. They said they didnt specifically market it for this purpose but had anaectotal evidence from racehorse owners of improvements in hooves (racehorses apparently tend to get their feet disinfected frequently prior to travelling - particulary when we had the foot and mouth outbreak)
Antec recommended washing it off the skin afterwards. BTW its a pink liquid which smells of lemons - it does colour the hoof slightly especially if you soak just after a trim- also it turns the coronet band pink!
As I said above, Jak seems to be decontracting even though I haven't treated any thrush/fungus. Sometimes there seems to be something there but it seems to come and go as he decontracts.Jane didn't seem worried by it.
But you've certainly got me thinking that a one off soak won't hurt and it may speed things along. As a first attempt would the zinc sulphate be the one to try? Does this address both thrush and fungus? Maybe I'll give it a go and see if it makes a difference
Wow! You guys are great! Just a quickie, do any of you think that perhaps Hibiscrub might work for infections? Its basically chlorohexidine (like the mouthwash but i wouldn't recommend gargling with it!) Simply because I am feling poor at the moment and Hibiscrub gets pulled out in most crisis' How very BHS of me....
hi all,
thats for that Carol.
I don't think that hibiscrub is going to be up to this. As you will see from Carol's post these sort of infections are absolute pigs to shift.
I have just bought a can of foot rot spray so will give that a try as well.
Catherine, I don't think that you have anything to loose by trying.
I spoke to Majorie Smith about this at length last year and she was convinced that until she had this sorted she did not resolve the decontraction issue fully.
I totally agree with her from what I have seen. The only problem is getting it sorted.
Yes, the NAF hoof and horn is zinc sulphate based. In fact the zinc sulphate is supplied to NAF by a company called Shep Fair (http://www.shepfair.co.uk) who also sell it undiluted at about £22 per 20kg (Golden Hoof)for treating sheep (cf NAF stuff which as its a 10% solution -the zinc suplphate actually costs £7-7.50 ish for 100g (ignoring the pretty purple colouring). Ie- buying it from the agricultural merchants is about 70 times cheaper!
I dont know what I'd recommend for a one off soak- as I use several things in rotation, not entirely sure what works! NAF market the hoof and sole (ie Zinc sulphate)for fungal infections so maybe thats worth a try first.. Quoting them " Research has shown that some horses can suffer from a fungus (this has now been identified in the laboratory), This fungus may be the reason why some hooves have 'White Line Disease' and become powdery and flaky on the underside"
As sheep get foot rot in warm moist weather, I would guess its the same infecting organism (or organisms)
Quite a few years ago, when Esme was young, she had a deep cleft at the very back of her frog which was pretty yucky (I didn't spot it at first as her feathers covered it up when I was picking her feet out - I was mortified that I'd missed it). The vet gave me a spray which was for foot rot in sheep, and this cleared the infection up no problem. I used a hoof knife to cut away as much of the frog around the cleft as I could without going into sensitive tissue, washed and dried it (tricky as the cleft was deep!), sprayed it, and then when it had dried I packed the cleft with antiseptic powder to stop dirt getting in and also to dry it up.
She doesn't seem to have a problem now, luckily. Her frogs have grown a lot since she had Cyteks on - she's now in Natural Balance shoes and I'd like her to go barefoot if possible, but will probably need some help as I have joint and muscle problems and don't know if I'm strong enough to do any trimming myself.