Hello, I've just joined - I did visit the forum when Catherine first started it (hi there Catherine - this is Alice with levi)and then got caught up in other things...
I would appreciate some advice re my yearling filly (now 16 months) and how to iron out a few things. I initially started some clicker training with her last yr (as i've used it extremely successfully with my gelding) but then lost confidence in its suitability for her (primarily due to her attitude to food and people when it is around) and tried an IH RA a few times - really great lady but i still don't feel happy about the methods. So i'm back. Apologies in advance for essay but i need to set the scene...
Lily is very laid back and confident (if anything a little too much!). She has a very friendly nature except when challenged or asked to do something she doesnt want to do (which is part of the reason i am sure this is not the way to go) or when food is around. Since she was 2 months old she has had a habit of appearing behind you with her ears back and a threatening expression on her face (she is not disciplined as much as she should be by her mum). This habit has continued and she now prefers to walk behind me when being led so that she can menace me when she feels like it. The IH way of course would be to turn round and confront her with an equally menacing gesture - this rarely works and i don't feel it is the best way to deal with it anyway (if anything it makes her feel she has to confront you more). She is also generally rather lazy when being led and it is hard to get her to walk at the pace i dictate rather than lagging along behind.
My concern with using food (which is the only thing that really motivates her) is that she can become quite dominant if no more is forthcoming. I understand that if i do it correctly and set clear parameters she should learn that threatening behaviour doesnt work but i think i need some advice on this.
anyway sorry this is so long and apologies if it is all a bit basic but i would welcome some advice.
Hi Alice,take heart, it's normal for horses to go through a period of testing. Nipping, mugging, pushing etc. This is an expected part of the learning process. An exploration of the parameters of clicker training. The first thing to remember is to keep safe so initial training should be behind a barrier so you can step back and withdraw the food reward until she shows willingness to take the reward calmly. Get her to target a cone initially held at waist height then gradually reduce the height of the cone until it's on the ground. The lowering of the head causes a calming effect and this will be useful if she gets too enthusiastic. Give treats at waist height, holding your hand away from your body. When you feel things are safer dispense with the barrier, but if the mugging returns go back to the barrier. She has to learn the differance between earning and stealing. I had a very greedy food orientated youngster that had learnt to barge people around to get his own way. Once he understood that he never got rewarded for bad behaviour he became an angel (or nearly)! Another thing be clear about the end of your training sessions. I tip any treats left onto the ground and walk away so the end of the session is clear. This is just the way I do it, I'm sure you will gets lots of good advice from more experienced clicker trainers on here, just do what works for you and your horse. Good luck, love Sue
To deal with your problem leading her, why don't you try getting her to follow a target stick(long whip) whatever you want to call it! Ask her to touch the end of the stick and then to follow it. This way you will be a safe distance away from her and you will encourage her to walk at the pace you wish her to.
In addition to what has been said already, I thought I'd share some of my thoughts with you too
Crunchie was very pushy once he started CT. He is very intelligent and picks things up almost instantly when you do CT with him (it can be quite dangerous sometimes if you mistakenly click the wrong thing with him!). However, he was very pushy with me, not so much for the treats but more trying to stop the end of a clicker session.
The mugging behaviour with Crunchie subsided considerably when I started to ask him to back away from me to get his treat - I know this has been used by other people on here to. I don't need to back him up any more, but if the occasion arose where he is getting a bit too much I can get him to back away from me.
My main problem was that at the end of a CT session he would throw himself infront of me and literally not let me get to the gate to get out of the school. On occasion he did treaten to kick, but this was only on occasion. I always end my CT session by saying 'all gone' and taking my treat bag off, but this didn't deter Crunch from stopping me getting out of the school (in the stable and in other places I would not have a problem). In the end I have had to do lots of work just walking with him and standing still with him after a CT session and using scratches to reward him. I am litterally teaching him that it is OK to be bored for a few moments
Something I have noticed though since I have moved yards and he has been out 24hrs is that he doesn't do it anywhere near as much, however he had to stay in his stable over night a week ago and I did a CT session with him then - it was amazing the difference....it doesn't sound like this would be a problem with your girl, but do bare in mind the environment she is kept in.
If treats are too much for your filly why not try workign with scratches for now, getting her to walk with you and stay by your shoulder, rewarding her for keeping a nice distance from you or something to that effect?
Finally, have you thought of getting any help from a professional? There are quite a few people now around the country who are available to help with CT and I have to say that the help that I have had from Ben and Emma at Company of Horses has been invaluable - I doubt I would have got as far as I have with CT and Crunch if it hadn't have been for their wonderful workshops, homevisits and support.
for the advice. I have the day off tomorrow so am going to go back to target training (which we did a bit of last autumn but then dropped), and will go from there. The target stick idea is a potentially useful one i think - i can't get her to walk beside me and it is not safe (as i have explained) to have her behind me. Could someone explain to me how you would work with this though i.e do you use longer and longer time period before you C/R to get her to keep targeting it as you walk along (apologies for dumb questions)?
As far as environment goes, she lives out and is noticeably worse in her behaviour in her field where she is very secure . However this is where much of her training would have to be done and so i suppose i am still a little concerned about how to safely address any initial threats from her without -R. I think the suggestions about how to mark the end of a session are interesting - i have a feeling this is when she will show her displeasure! She already backs up on command but not in some cases when it doesnt suit - so we have to work on this.
As you say Marie, it would be good to get some help but i don't know of anyone in my area (currently Herts and possibly moving to suffolk soon). I have had no problems with using CT occasionally with my gelding but this is an easier situation in that he doesnt exhibit the same tendancies as the filly - he is incredibly greedy but has no thought of trying to dominate me or the situation in that way.
thanks again and if anyone has any more advice i'd love to hear it. Really glad i rediscovered this group!
Great to see you on here. Yes all fine with us thanks.
You've been given some really useful advice here which I definitely agree with. But I've thought of a few other things as well which you may or may not feel are relevant.
The thing that struck me most of all about your posts was that your filly sounds confused. On the one hand you want her to walk on without lagging behind but on the other hand you have been taught to take a menacing stance to counteract her coming too close with evil faces. Obviously I've never met her but I can't help wondering if this is confusion and not her "trying to menace you when she feels like it".
I've started helping a friend with her horse - she's been having problems catching him and gradually as she has tried different suggestions (from other people) his behaviour has got worse. From walking away he has progressed to more aggressive behaviour involving bucking, kicking and cantering around in circles. She got some professional natural horsemanship style help and was advised to swing a rope around her head to maintain a safety zone - kind of the equivalent to what you have been taught to do with your menacing stance. This may work with some horses as it has the effect of making them more compliant (ie taking the path of least resistance) but in this case (and many others I have seen/heard about) as she has increased her aggression the horse has done likewise. It is almost as though she is setting the boundaries and saying it's ok to be more aggressive - I've suggested that she leads by example and reduces her aggression and she has confirmed that when she has tried this it has brought his aggression levels down as well. She is now learning to be more consistent with this so that he feels able to trust her.
I can't help wondering if this is what is happening with your filly. From what you say it sounds as though this is what you might be beginning to think anyway. From her point of view she may feel that she's trying to do what you want - stay out of your space but then she's going more slowly than you want her to do. Would you agree that so far you have taught her what not to do but not really shown her what she should do? (I hope you realise that I am not criticising you in this although, as you know, I'm not a fan of the person who has been teaching you!)
With so many of these problems it's not so much about trying to find a solution but the original cause. You mentioned that her mother didn't discipline her enough as though that may be the cause. Maybe. But alternatively her mother may have disciplined her as much as she needed to and it is now for you to show her the right things to do instead of worrying about the discipline. That may sound a bit airy fairy but it's amazing the way it works as long as you can just give them the benefit of the doubt.
So with that in mind I wouldn't bother to start focussing too much on the CT until you have it clear in your mind what the cause of the problem is. If you are going to combine it with this picture that she is deliberately trying to dominate/menace you then I'm not sure this is the right time to start CT. Instead I would try to phase out the amount of "punishment" (which I use in the behavioural sense of the word) that you have been using first. Then I would indeed move on to the CT. I can't remember whether you said you've read Don't Shoot the Dog. If not then I would definitely read that before starting any CT.
I can appreciate that it is daunting backing off the P/-R as it feels like it is the only thing keeping you safe. And it is true that behaviour will often get worse before it gets better. That is why the safety aspects like using a barrier when introducing treats is a good plan. It is also worth really making sure you have your head round what you are doing with her as it is almost inevitable that the horse picks it up before the human (we've all been there!). But if you can gradually phase out any aggression on your part then she will have no reason to match the aggression and the whole energy of the situation will come down.
The bit about walking with the target stick will come clear when you've read about variable schedules of reinforcement (in Don't Shoot... or the thread we had a while back - look through the archive). But this is getting more advanced so don't worry about it until you are convinced that you are both ready to move on. You should also look at some of the threads about mixing -R and +R as +R works so much better when the horse is not worried about the consequences of its actions (which seems to be the case with your filly if I'm right in what I've said above)
Think I should stop there... I hope it's useful - but please don't think I'm being critical of anything you've done. Just trying to see it from a different viewpoint which may or may not be a load of rubbish!
hi catherine,
totally agree with most of what you are saying in that i do feel the 'menacing stance' method is not a good idea and if anything it will make her worse. To be honest for this reason i have rarely done it as a) i don't feel right about it and b) don't think it works (2 totally seperate things - the first being the main objection). (by the way it is a different IH person who has been helping me).
Most of the time i have been using +R in other areas (e.g leaving mum (which she does happily) and most of the time she is not a problem (I suppose i have been highlighting the negatives here as this is where i need the advice). But i totally agree that she is now probably a little confused and i need to remedy this. I suppose part of the problem is that i moved away from what i intrinsically felt was right because i thought i needed someone with experience to help me locally. In hindsight it was probably not the best idea and i should have stuck with my gut feeling and tried to deal with it on my own if that was the only way .
I would say however that i do feel that (since i spend half my life in the field poo picking etc and with Levi) she does think she can occasionally turn her bum on me or make a face if i am in her way (or carrying food) in the way that she tries to with my other 2 horses and that it is not totally confusion (this was a behaviour that she was testing out at 2 months). However it is up to me to show her what 'works' better for her, rather than thinking of it in terms of 'making' her stop doing it.
The situation is going to change from today anyway, so thanks again and really glad to have refound this site
Before you think 'who is this saddo on the computer at 5.30am!', I am just off to do the horses before work but have to do at least 20mins on the computer to wake me up before i am fit to drive!
Target training is going well - Lily has got the knack of going away from me to go touch her target and yesterday she followed me round the field a bit with me holding her target at arms length (with her nose on it). Infinitely better than the menacing i can get from her from behind.
Would welcome some advice on doing her feet though as this is a tricky one. Her most recent thing is waiting til i lean over to pick one up (unfortunately i have to do this without a helper) and then whipping round in my direction with a nasty face. I am working on C/R when she picks and holds her foot up for a second and we do get there in the end but it is still very inconsistent. I also need to build up time for when she has her feet trimmed (she is not remotely worried about this, just gets irritated).
Final question - suggestions for treats that can be fed in small enough amounts. I find apples etc difficult as you end up getting through them so fast. I tried sunflower seeds at the weekend but she is not so keen on them. I dont feed mixes so this isnt an option. Any ideas?
Hi there , is there any way that you could fix your target in front of her when you are picking out her feet? you could work out a shaping schedule for getting from her touching the target while you stand there to the end point of her touching the target happily while you pick up her feet?
Or you could do it without the target and only click when her head is to the front or atleast away from you.
Re; treats I can't remmber exactly what you said you were using but I use the grass nuts that my horses are fed on mixed with tiny cubes of carrot and the odd herbal treat. The grass nuts are tiny and my mare will happily work for just one with the odd jackpot thrown in. With my pony and foal I use scratches instead as they love them and tend to get abit over excited with food treats. Have been associating bum scratches with the clicker with my 2 month old foal with great success, am working on picking up his feet with out him attempting to nibble me! I just make sure that I never click when his head is towards me, and I don't even start to run my hand down his leg if he is looking at me.
Good luck!
Helen
I agree with what Helen said. Another thing is to make sure you're not only making the time she has to stand on 3 legs progressively longer. Sometimes make it nice and easy for her to maintain her enthusiasm.
You could also try clicking "nice face" - I haven't tried this but I think I read somewhere that Meera and Sam have so maybe they could comment on this (Sam isn't on-line much at the moment though).
As for treats, I use a mixture of scratches, herballs, chopped up carrot, chopped up apple
and she was a total nightmare....what do you do in a situation where you have to get something done? Ideally i know you have practised enough that it isn't an issue ....
A few months ago back legs were problem. Yesterday she was very good for the backs (foot on stand and everything which i was really impressed with) but point blank refused to stand still for her fronts. What was noticeable was that she got more and more angry and she clearly felt we were trying to 'make' her do something she didnt want to do (she is not ). I tried clicker, scratching, everything, but she got very bargy and snappy. Charlie managed to get some of her fronts done and we had to call it a day.
At the moment i realise that the behaviours i am trying to teach her are not nearly ingrained enough and whilst she behaves like an angel, backs up on command, picks feet up etc without a problem when i can get her in the right mood, we still have a problem in a situation where we need to get something done and she clearly doesn't want to oblige. Obviously i have to get her 'wanting' to oblige but at the moment if feels a very long way off!! Lily is bum high as you would expect and so i am sure finds it difficult to shift her weight back onto her hinds so this may be part of the reason we are having such an issue.
help! I have 5 weeks till she is trimmed again and i really need to improve the situation. Does anyone find that whilst it can be easily to instill behaviours in the right environment, there are situations where the cooperation you think you have goes totally out the window and you are left with a horse with no regard for your space?
and she was a total nightmare....what do you do in a situation where you have to get something done? Ideally i know you have practised enough that it isn't an issue ....
A few months ago back legs were problem. Yesterday she was very good for the backs (foot on stand and everything which i was really impressed with) but point blank refused to stand still for her fronts. What was noticeable was that she got more and more angry and she clearly felt we were trying to 'make' her do something she didnt want to do (she is not scared or confused in this case ). I tried clicker, scratching, everything, but she got very bargy and snappy. Charlie managed to get some of her fronts done and we had to call it a day.
At the moment i realise that the behaviours i am trying to teach her are not nearly ingrained enough and whilst she behaves like an angel, backs up on command, picks feet up etc without a problem when i can get her in the right mood, we still have a problem in a situation where we need to get something done and she clearly doesn't want to oblige. Obviously i have to get her 'wanting' to oblige but at the moment if feels a very long way off!! Lily is bum high as you would expect and so i am sure finds it difficult to shift her weight back onto her hinds so this may be part of the reason we are having such an issue.
help! I have 5 weeks till she is trimmed again and i really need to improve the situation. Does anyone find that whilst it can be easily to instill behaviours in the right environment, there are situations where the cooperation you think you have goes totally out the window and you are left with a horse with no regard for your space?
Are her feet in good condition? Ie has she been foot sore recently or got bruised front feet at all? Make sure that is isn't a pain issue. My horse has just gone bare foot and my YO has moved him into a field which involved walking nearly a mile down a stoney path. He was ok until yesterday when he was stopping and didn't want to move. At first I thought he was stopping to nosey at the horses in the other fields but I soon realised that it was more than that and his feet where sore. Other people who saw him where commenting on how lazy he was and how stubborn! So it's always worth baring in mind that it could be a pain issue.
Horses need to generalise what they have learnt with different situations, for example, you often find horses that will load at home no problem but when asked to load in a new place it is like they have to learn what to do again - eventually with practice they learn to generalise of course. The same may be happening here. She may have learnt that you pick up your feet in the field for you, but not necessarily learnt that she picks up her feet for someone else in a yard with hammers and vans and other noisy things around. If this is the case then it may be worth your while practicing picking her feet up in different places, getting different people to pick up her feet and maybe even pretending to be rasping her hoof or banging on it.
Has she learnt to stand for some time having her feet played with? Has she learnt to hold her feet up for someone for any length of time? Again, this would need practice and a shaping plan if you have not already got this far.
Has she had any bad experiences with farriers and her front feet?
These are just some things that came to mind when I read your post, but I am sure there are 101 other possibilities too
I'm sorry you are having problems,the first thing I would say to you is TAKE THE PRESSURE OFF YOURSELF!! Is there any reason that she has to be trimmed in 5 weeks time? Does she have physical issues with her feet? If not and I say this tentatively,then don't set yourself a time frame for getting this problem sorted. If you think she can manage for slightly longer then so be it. I am right in assuming that you were managing well up until the farrier came?
Arrgh! Sorry got to go now phones ringing at work will finish this post later!
Lucy.
lucy & marie,
thanks for replying so fast...
No she has no pain and has never had a bad experience. She has only ever had Jane B and now Charlie Girdlestone trimming her (and this has been regularly since she was 2 months old - she only started objecting at about 8-10 months), so no noisy farriers or anything! I do think she finds it harder to take weight off the fronts at the moment because she is so bum high but this will go on for some time..
She had some white line stretching which we are trying to tighten up so it is fairly impt that she has regular trims and so i do want charlie to be able to do what she needs to do next time she comes (as it will be quite a while before trim after that as we are moving house).
I think i need to practise the length of time more as alot of the time i am probably only doing it for the time i need to pick out her feet and paint stuff on. Charlie was trying to move around the feet so that she didnt have to have one worked on for long.
just stood in the middle of the field with me tonight and backed up on command and let me pick up all 4 feet a few times (no headcollar or clicker on me). Knowing her she is probably just making the point that she can do it IF she wants too
Jan L - thanks. unfortunately yard is flat so possibly a bit tricky - will have a think. However she obviously can do it, even if it is harder for her than her backs at present.
Try not to lose heart at moments like this - we've all found that "behaviour can get worse before it gets better".
Various thoughts have crossed my mind on reading your posts....
I definitely agree with Lucy about taking the pressure off yourself and off Lily. Look for the good aspects and don't worry about the "bad" bits - just see it as information as to what you need to do next (if I had to pick one concept I've learnt from Ben and Emma that I find the most useful then I think this would possibly be the one!)
Be careful not to stretch out the behaviour too quickly - there's a big difference between being able to have her feet picked out and a full blown trim. And as I said above, sometimes make it easy as well as sometimes making it hard. In fact for every hard occasion I would make sure there are lots of easy occasions.
If Charlie is trimming in the way KC taught us then it is very different from Jane. KC uses a standard farrier stance (which Lily may find "claustrophobic") and expects the horse to stand still without needing rests, whereas Jane crouches down low to keep the horse more comfortable and will let the horse rest if necessary. KC taught us ways of "punishing" undesired behaviour in his own NH-biased manner. Charlie also has a Parelli background. So while I have utmost respect for Charlie, maybe Lily is objecting to her in some way, even if it is just in the unperceptible "vibe" sense. If Charlie is using the standard farrier vice grip then that is something for you to practice with Lily. If Lily is objecting to Charlie for any reason then you will need to win her trust so that she can trust Charlie too. (I'm not saying this is the case, just guessing wildly!)
Be careful not to only use the clicker for things you need to work on. I make a point of not using it for things which are proper issues as I want it to purely have a fun connection. I'm not saying you shouldn't use it for issues but make sure sometimes you are just playing as that will help keep its value. We've had threads on this before, probably back at the beginning of the archives - names like "when not to use the clicker" and "putting the value into the clicker" or something like that. We've also had threads on subjects like using the clicker as a quick fix (which in many cases you can't really do).
And don't forget what we said above about making +R become a way of life and if you are thinking of her in terms of "being a madam" or "a nightmare" then no doubt she will oblige!
Knowing her she is probably just making the point that she can do it IF she wants too
Unfortunately this is kind of the point of CT - the horse has the option not to play! If the horse is choosing not to play then that is when we need to think about why. Is it just a bad day? (We all have them, that's fine) Is the training moving too quickly? Is there insufficient motivation for the horse? Am I inadvertantly providing the motivation for the horse to do something other than play? ie Am I just oozing pressure that makes the horse just want to get away from me?
Stick in there and try to have some fun. Have you tried using targetting as more of a game, or doing an obstacle course, picking up toys etc?
Catherine, sorry but I am not sure that I agree with some of your comments about KC's handling methods.
Firstly as far as I understand it the purpose of the farrier hold is not to upset the horse but is to put the trimmer in a position to achieve a more balanced trim. It is not possible with all horses but I think a proffessional trimmer would use it if possible to get the best possible trim. I have no idea how Charlie held Lily to trim her.
The other point is that it puts the trimmer in a safer position than crouching down (or, as some people do the even more dangerous practice of kneeling or sitting down) At the end of the day the safety of the trimmer is paramount.
Secondly I did not see any problem at all with KC's method of horse handling throughout our course. In fact I thought he was excellent when dealing with the horses and I am wondering what you saw him doing that I missed. I would not like people reading this list to think that he handed the horses badly.
Several of the horses behaved badly. Well, worse than badly. At the end of the day he had to use whatever quick method was available to him to keep the horse still for long enough to trim. His job was to trim the horse not to educate it, that was the owner's job.
He had a very short time in which to trim and had to somehow get that done.
The horses seemed to like him, he achieved results and I am at a loss as to why you were unhappy about his handling.
As someone who has trimmed other people's horses and has had to put up with their sometimes bad behaviour then I think it is very important that people educate their horses, by whatever method, to have their feet dealt with easily.
Sorry if I gave the impression I was accusing KC of mishandling the horses. That certainly wasn't the case (although I did disagree with most of what he said about horse behaviour - but that's another subject altogether!) and I used the word "punishing" in its behavioural sense.
The only point I was trying to make that if Charlie stands/handles as KC taught us then it is very different from the way Jane stands/handles. And so Lily may need to be taught the difference.
