all,
thanks for all the advice given so far re: my yearling. I have some more questions regarding 'threatening' behaviour and thought it would be easier to start a new thread. Sorry for the length!
This morning when i let my gelding out into the field for 30 mins (he is penned on the edge most of the time due to laminitis problems), Lily (yearling) went off to play with him and spent quite alot of time walking up behind him with her ears back or swinging her quarters round to initiate play. Ultimately she respects him but will push to see how far she can go with him and is pretty confident around him (not scared to try to double barrel him!). 10mins later she gives in (as he wants to eat!) and starts the same thing with me while i am poo picking - menacing leers and swinging her quarters round to back into me. I am trying hard to ignore unwanted behaviours and C/R when she presents a nice face and her front end, however what do you do when behaviours are difficult to ignore i.e if i don't get out the way you risk being hurt?
Lily is an extremely friendly and likeable youngster most of the time but she is very confident and secure in the field and knows that she can move me around in her environment if she wants to by threatening me. She has exhibited some of these traits since about 2 months old (when she would appear behind me with a menacing expression while poo picking!!) and alot of it is just about getting attention. I do feel that some of it is part of her fairly dominant personality and not just confusion.
Do you suggest i always have clicker and treats on me so that i can C/R for friendly face?
Although i think i might have problems if she thinks i have started a session in the middle of the field she might object to it not carrying on?!
sorry if i am going over the same ground a bit but i am anxious to understand how i can deal with this without resorting to -R
I'll be interested to hear what the others have to say about this as well.
I don't think it would be a good idea to have treats/clicker with you all the time. This could potentially degenerate into a situation where she bullies you into a CT session which isn't what we want! I think you need to have very well-defined CT sessions and be consistent in wearing a bum-bag (or whatever) so she knows when treats are available.
Where do you do your CT? Is it always in the field? If so then it may be an idea to fence off a little bit to form a CT pen. Then she could learn that if she wants CT/attention then that is where she needs to go to "ask" for it. Or teach her some default behaviour (like a head-down) that she can use as a "please pay me attention" cue. ie replace the behaviour with an incompatible behaviour a la Karen Pryor
When she comes to you like this is it always to gain attention or is to tell you to go away? Or does it vary? I have occasionally had Jak nip me or barge me in a request for more CT and if he does this then I instantly walk away. This is a form of "negative punishment". If you are convinced that she wants your attention and isn't trying to get rid of you then maybe this would be an option too.
It's all very well ignoring behaviour but you need to keep yourself safe as well. I take it you can't do the poo-picking when she's not in the field? It would certainly be good if you can avoid the problem in the first place. I've also had the situation where a horse was being aggressive and wouldn't let me take Jak out of the field. I was advised to use punishment (headcollars thrown at him) but it was quite clear that if I escalated the aggression then so would he. I needed a quick fix as his behaviour wasn't something I could sort out without the owner's cooperation and so I used to just put a headcollar on him and tie him to the fence while I took Jak out of the field. Then I'd leave Jak loose outside the field until I'd untied the aggressive horse. Similarly you could tie Lily up while you poo-pick, but with a CT variable schedule of reinforcement. Think about it carefully and you could end up with the situation where she sees you coming with your rubber gloves and she will be off to stand in position and would no longer need tying up.
Well done for all your perseverance - it will work long-term, honest!
Alice,
Lily is certainly putting you through your paces! Well done for persevering, I am sure she will turn into the perfect little horse you know she can be.
This pulling faces and turning quarters to provoke a response has got me a little confused. Threatening with hind legs is usually a defensive response and pulling faces etc.. is usually an offensive response. So perhaps this isn't the signs of a confident little filly but rather one who is unsure of herself, possibly her status in the herd? (Just guessing)
Your idea of creating a CT pen sounds great, this way she will know exactly what is expected of her and when.
In answer to the questions - probably not in order...
I realise normal distinction between presenting quarter and using her front end is defensive vs offensive so to speak. However it is not always clear cut with her. She has been using the ears back menacing thing since she was very young (although it was obviously alot less threatening when she was smaller!) and so it def doesnt have its origins in any attempts to use -R. She will often approach me from behind with her ears back (and she does the same with Levi) and then if i turn around and face her she will (mostly) put on a nice face. However recently she has been using it when she doesnt want her feet done and is quite snappy - i am working on this as you know. The presenting quarters is occasionally to do with food i.e if i walk near her when she has just got some hay or feed so i avoid doing this. However this morning i think it was something else as i was in the middle of a large field, she was following me around (not vice versa) and was quite full of herself and she suddenly turned round and started backing towards me and did a little kick (and she had been doing the same thing with levi 10 mins earlier).
Her herd is stable to an extent in that in the winter she was out with mum and Levi and now she is out with mum with Levi penned in part of the field so that they groom each other etc and levi is let out for short periods. Obviously in winter the situation will improve again as she will have Levi to play with full time, but there is nothing i can do to change this at present . Levi is in charge when he is out but he never bullies her and they graze side by side and usually go off together and leave mum.
I can't really tie her up or remove her from the field when i poo pick and to be honest it isnt normally a problem - i was really just using what happened this morning as an example of a behaviour i need to address. I am consious of the fact that whilst she is easy in that she is very laid back, she is also very strong willed and i am going to have to find a way of addressing this kind of behaviour before she gets much bigger (she is already about 14.3-15hh).!
Agree that i should stick with defined training sessions with her. Hence i put her headcollar on etc and get her target out and take them away when we have finished. I am still at a loss however as to how to improve her behaviour in the field on the odd occasion when she is not so nice! Issue about the rights and wrongs of -R aside, i know it will make her worse and so i don't want to use it but at the same time i do need some level of 'respect' for my space for want of a better word to be established.
anyway sorry i am really rambling on. I think i did warn you all that i would be high maintenance!!
alice
p.s am hoping to see Ben from CofH demo at Lucinda's this weekend
forgot to say...
at the moment i am using backing up on command to try to get her to back out of my space / stop any menacing behaviour. Obviously followed by C/R when we are doing a session but if i get her to do it in the field when she is lose because she is crowding me then i just give her a scratch.
is this ok?
It's so hard to answer you properly without seeing the situation. I think it would be really helpful for you to discuss this with Ben and maybe arrange a home visit.
In the meantime you have to do what keeps you safe and if that means the occasional bit of -R or P then it's not the end of the world. But just be careful that it doesn't make the situation worse - by upping the aggression you are saying to her that it is ok for her to up the aggression (for want of a better word) too. You're also effectively telling her that you're not going to respond to whatever information (ie the "bad behaviour") she's trying to pass on to you and that could leave her feeling more frustrated. Her reaction will depend on why she is doing it in the first place and, from what you say, it seems to vary.
But really I think you need to approach this from the other side. Try to stop worrying about the bad behaviour and focus on the good. Have lots of fun and play games which show her acceptable ways of behaving. Dwelling on the problems doesn't make them go away. Just try to avoid putting yourself in the situation where problems arise.
Be careful with the rewarding of backing up out of your space as you could be setting up a behaviour chain (this is the sort of reason why it is so helpful to get someone to come out and help you). KAren Pryor talks about behaviour chains in DSTD.
She could be thinking that in order to get a reward she first needs to crowd you, this then makes you give her the backing cue and then she backs up to get her treat. In order for backing to work, you need to cue her backing (or whatever) before she starts to crowd you. This is a good example of why it's a good idea to use CT in the game sense rather than to focus on problems. It's also a good idea to leave out cues sometimes - eg maybe backing is so on-cue that she needs to mug you to make you give the cue, rather than just offer backing-up.
Why not start with something new - teach her head-down but free-shape it, with no cues or luring/targetting. Do it often enough that it becomes her way of asking for attention. So when she wants to play clicker or have some attention she will have a way of asking you.
At later stages when this becomes too easy then you can stretch it out slowly to a longer head-down but I wouldn't do this until you have had someone out to check your progress. (How far are you from Milton Keynes? I have to go there at the end of January so could come and be a second pair of eyes if you haven't found one by then!).
catherine,
thanks for response - i do really think i need some help quite urgently but no idea who (CofH are too far away!).
Yesterday went quite well - no problems in the field and i did some target training with her and then did her feet with a minimum of nasty faces. We do need to work on duration that her feet are up before she gets too impatient for her C/R though but hopefully that will come. Was feeling quite positive about the whole thing...
then this morning had a problem again. I have to carry Levi's hay across field to soak it. So i normally give Lily and mum a wedge before hand to stop mugging. This morning Lily was up top of field grazing with Levi and didnt come down immediately for the wedge which mum had started eating. So i took Levi's hay across the field and she saw me and cantered down towards me (bear in mind she has grass and is not starving!). As she approached her ears went back. I didnt try to stop her grabbing some and so did nothing to make her defensive or think i was going to refuse to let her have any. However after grabbing a mouthful she promptly turned round and double barrelled me to get me away from the hay.
I have no idea where this aggression regarding food comes from. She has never been hungry, never had to defend her food from other horses or from me. Nor do my other 2 ever behave in an agressive manner towards me or around food. She is also happy to share her food with her mum or (more often!) to try to share their food. Obviously short term i have to find a way of avoiding the situation but i can see no acceptable justification for this kind of behaviour and it is not something i can just work around for the rest of her life, or am prepared to put up with.
I am desperate not to resort to -R but at the same time i feel that she knows at the moment that she can use her legs or teeth whenever i get in the way of what she wants and it is obviously not ok. This is where IH people would talk about respect and and for want of a better word at the moment she has none. I am painting a picture of her at her worst and as i have said 90% of the time she is an angel but i have got to find a way of setting some boundaries fast before this gets really out of hand and i suppose i am still unsure of how exactly positive reinforcement can do this is these types of situations.
I am really sorry to keep going on and i know i am repeating myself alot but this is really upsetting me -particularly as i have tried so hard to create the right environment for her from the start.
Oh I really sympathise with you.I may have missed it but where are you in the country.The only thing I can think of is for you to E-mail Emma at CoH and have a chat with her, she is truelly brilliant.Ben travells all over the country doing home visits and workshops.There maybe a workshop you could go on around your region.It really is worth contacting them.They have helped me no end.
Rach