I'm new to this forum but it was like a breath of fresh air to find it (thanks to Amba on NH forum).
I've lots of experience with dogs but only started C/T my horse in February this year. Used it to improve picking his feet up (was a struggle before!) and to make him stand for the farrier, and for training him to stand next to a mounting block, for lateral work in the school (from the ground), loading, following target, fetching ball, lowering head, going through puddles, reassureing in spooky situation (ie traning to go past spooky object) and similar things. However, now I'm wondering how I should be riding....I've always been taught the 'traditional way' and now I'm trying to bring on my horse I'm questionning things and getting a bit confused about how to go about it. So.....how do you start ridden clicker training? I've found that the groundwork has helped immensley with turn-on-the-forehand and leg yielding but not sure where to go from here.
Also, I'm interested in people who say they train their horse only by PR, I thought I was doing well but have now realised I trained my horse to side-pass etc on the ground by applying pressure where my leg would be and although I combined this with clicker training, its still classed as -ve reinforcement because I'm making him move away from pressure. So perhaps I'm being mean after all.
Help!!
Sorry for the waffle, just pleased to have found a forum that might understand me!
Also, I've been helping other people in my area with CT and have had quite a few successes helping horses to load, how cool is that!!

Welcome!!
Sounds like you have started with your horse in exactly the same way I did.....
oh, the great debate, -ve R or not.....what a can of worms you have opened!!
I did exactly the same when I started, mingling -r and +r because it seemed logical when I was fresh out of my 'traditional' BHS back ground.
I'm still debating this in my own head, because on the one hand I feel I ought to be doing all my training as +R but at the same time i see no harm in introducing mild cues (and I mean mild) but if you are being technical then they are actually -R because to be cues I would have to train the behaviou first and then add in the cue, and in certain cases I don't, I do the (v mild) -R first.. as a hint to encourage what I want. So I have admitted it, i don't always use pure free shaping, although in certain cases I do. aagghh!! I continually debate this round in my head, am I wrong to do this? But I see the answer every day with my mare, she is thriving and loves to spend time training. How can it be wrong?
I will be interested to see what people say as I am sure some of us agree and some disagree.
Hx
Anyway, I find I am continually evolving and changing my view as I read and learn, so I may think something totally different in a few months!!!

Welcome to the site - and yes I do know Tracey! But I don't think I've ever discussed CT with her. I try very hard not to talk horses with work people as I suddenly realise how bored I make them!! Afraid I don't know any instructors locally. Apparently there are various classical dressage people and RWYM instructors who visit the area (see the thread on the IHDG from yesterday - a search on Surrey should find it) but the more I've got into CT the more I've decided to manage alone. The only exception is my plan to have a lesson or few with David Dodwell in Horse Morse Code (based near Oxford somewhere) - I feel this would combine really well with CT but I want to learn it on his horse first. Apparently this would be possible and I'll post on here when I finally get round to it.

So whereabouts are you based??

As for mixing +R/-R - that's a biggie for a Friday morning! At the moment I'm riding "normally" - ie hacking on a really long rein in a bitless bridle - and if I need to use -R/P (typically when we have a difference of opinion as to which direction we're going) then I do. I don't really use leg aids to speed up and rarely to slow down. I normally let the terrain and Jak dictate how fast we go and we normally end up doing a bit of everything. Some voice aids too. Obviously there are exceptions depending on traffic etc

Having said that I only still use -R/P when riding because I haven't started trying with CT yet. I need to ride him for keeping is feet in shape and so this is my current compromise. But I am determined that it won't always be like this and we will transfer it to the riding very soon.

When we have CT sessions it is pure free shaping and/or using targets to encourage behaviour. I use no -R/P or moulding whatsoever. And I don't use CT for things which NEED to be done as I don't want it to lose its value. Most of the time I don't even use deliberate cues (although obviously eg getting the target out is a cue in itself). This is when my horse is a new person and his enthusiasm is much more blatant. Sometimes I will let my impatience get the better of me and try to help him and I am convinced he gets pissed off with me for rushing him, and so we shut down the learning process. I try to let him figure things out for himself as to me CT is about allowing the horse to use its brain and make the decisions. It's not about me and my dressage (or whatever) agenda.

In the short-term this is a very slow approach if you have any sort of agenda for achieving behaviours. But since I am trying to achieve a free-thinking and enthusiastic horse who also happens to do dressage and jumping (ok, so we're still a way off that!) we are working at the perfect speed for us. The fact that he is so much more willing to offer behaviour than when we first started really convinces me we are doing the right thing for us.

So I guess it depends on what you want to achieve and when you want to achieve it. It always makes me laugh when people say its not possible to only use +R - I would say it is, provided you have the patience, the desire and the imagination. Sometimes it is hard and sometimes I fail but the achievement is that much greater when it works.

As for how to transfer the +R to riding, well I intend to do exactly the same as what I do dismounted. Except that I'm giving the cues from up top. The targets we play with (ie four up-turned flower pots in a schooling ring shape!) will be very helpful as he will still know where to go and so I can add steering cues.

Catherine

Hi Corelli, I'm Amba from the DG!

Didn't take you long at all to find here. There's so much good stuff.

I'm not very far with using the clicker in riding situations, I'm mainly using it with my very stale cob who's previous owners used two aids - kick to go and pull to stop! It's certainly made him a happier horse.

I'm interested to hear what people say about riding and training with +R only. I am positive it's possible, but I'd imagine it would be very, very slow.

Claire.

I live in Addlestone (near Tracey) but Jake is kept in Cobham.
I started off using CT as a problem-solving device and although it was tackling things he didnt like he did seem to seee it as a game and gets very excited when I bring his target out (a supplement lid). The first time I tried to load him he wouldnt even go near the lorry but out came his target (was trying to avoid bringing it out due to people on my yard thinking I'm a wierdo) and he perked up and walked up calmly.
Now I'm working on free shaping, which is a nice game, but I do use it as a 'tool', especially on hacks because he's quite nervous so if he looks at something thinking its going to eat him but makes a move in the right direction he gets a click then walks calmly past it. However, I've been reluctant to advise this to other people starting out in CT (who I meet etc) because you could reinforce the 'being scared and about to bolt' thing rather than the overcoming scaredness and walking past thing.
Waffle waffle, I just find it all so exciting and practical and although I see what you mean about keeping it fun etc I do tend to lean on it for other things too.
Right, going to browse lots of previous posts to get up to speed with who people are and what's been discussed.