I've just adopted a rescue dog who has lots of behavioural problems and I was wondering if anyone knows a site a bit like this one but for dogs? Or a dog forum that is sort of 'serious' and good for advice, rather than the 'chatty' ones that have a lot of teenagers on with random messages.

For anyone who's interested, this dog came from Last Chance Rescue center, he'd originally been a stray and picked up by the welsh pound. They think he'd been very badly treated as was terrified of humans. Last Chance rescue them from the pound (or they are put down) and he'd been with them for THREE years!

He's meant to be fear-aggressive and has been returned from 3 homes and a foster home for biting strangers. He's a small terrier cross and 9 years old.

I heard about him before visiting the place etc, wasnt planning on getting a dog but couldnt resist his story. He's been in kennels for such a long time that is good at being left and although I work at home for 2-3 days a week he's got to be alone apart from lunch time for the other days.

If you kneel down and call him he'll come up to you wagging his tail and very friendly, however you have to touch him very slowly, you can't just go and stroke him like a normal dog or he'd bite (apparently). He's been home since Tuesday....he's fine and friendly and comes and sits on your lap BUT if he's lying down and you go too close (within a foot so very close really) and look at him he hurls himself at you snarling and if you're not quick would probably bite (have only done this once!). He's very possessive about his bed and I woudlnt dream of touching him in his bed.

I don't know the 'definitions' but I dont think its 'fear aggression' now, perhaps its stemmeed from that but he's not frightened of people or he wouldnt go up to them. I think its 'possessive aggression' possibly with dominance issues. He's trained people to keep away from 'his' bed.

Its easy to avoid going up to him in his bed etc but am now finding impracticalities. If he's in the lounge and you want him off the bean bag and into the kitchen (where his bed is) he won't come when you call (does if he's already up) so you have to get his lead (gets v excited) take him for a walk then put him straight to bed after that.

I've been thinking about how to deal with him. I'm not sure clicker training is the way to go as he's snappy with treats etc. but I'm certainly using positive reinforcement, when you talk in an excited way his tail wags for England so I think that's a 'treat'.

My plan is:
Try to get him off his bed when I want him to by training a 100% recall. Rather than calling and it not working, use the lead and walk as a reward for coming off his bed (however, this is bribery I guess!). Then in time he should come off his bed anyway when I call.

I thought I'd also put some of Jan Farrels (spelling? the author of the dog whisperer) book to test to ensure he knows I'm the dominant person (differnet to horses) like eating before him, greeting him on my terms not his, etc.

Anyway, any suggestions of a forum for this kind of issue would be great.

Hi Suz

Well done you for rescuing this dog - poor little poppet.

Afraid I don't know of any +R dog forums although if the dog world is anything like the horse world then your best bet is to start your own! But you might want to contact the trainers listed on the thread lower down as they may have more useful contacts.

I'm not a dog owner (I wish!) so these are just my gut feelings to some of what you've written. And since I haven't seen your dog I'm only guessing so please feel free to disagree....

I really don't like the Jan Fennell book - I did when I first read it (when I was still a Monty fan as well) but since reading more about behaviour and learning it just doesn't stand up. And it certainly doesn't combine with +R training so be careful there. In my opinion all this book does is show you a way of forcing your dominance on the dog in the same way "natural" horsemanship does - I don't buy the "dog is a wolf/predator" excuse any more than I think humans forcing their dominance on other humans is excusable.

Whether or not it is officially fear-aggression he has learnt a way of keeping himself safe from humans by snapping at them when it all gets too much. If you want to get rid of this behaviour then I would approach it in exactly the same way you would approach changing equine behaviour - slowly and with +R. I think I would want to reward him whenever he chooses to be with you (think I agree with you about not using CT or treats - just attention, rubs in his favourite itchy spots etc) and accept that if he doesn't want to be with you then he has a valid reason for it. Over the coming months he will learn that he benefits from choosing to be with you. If you follow the JF approach and ignore him when he comes to you then you will be missing vital opportunities for showing that you're the best person for him to be with. Letting him come to you when he's ready seems to me to be the most important thing you could do. Obviously you don't want him to go the other way and become pushy but it sounds as though you're a long way off that.

I wouldn't start trying to get him off his bed yet unless you really have to. I would start a programme of systematic desensitization, say, by just sitting reading a book closer and closer to his bed, not moving closer until he is really comfortable with the previous step. For now I'd have thought that would be more beneficial than teaching him 100% recall. I think you want to teach confidence, decision-making and "Suz is a good place to be" before you worry about other issues.

Can't wait to hear about his progress so please keep us posted.

Catherine xx

Where abouts are you?

I know a good person who works with dogs but she won't like the Jan Fennell stuff so be warned if you do like it. She is very against all the go through the door first, eat first business.

She may well do telephone consults if you're not local to me (Oxfordshire)

Hi
Yes, I think I'm possibly going through a similar process I did with equine behaviour now with canine behaviour! There is just so much more info about 'traditional trainers' than +R trainers its easy to believe what you read. Obviously I have DSTD to help (and trained walking to heel rather than hanging on the end of the lead in two walks! - very rewarding) but need a bit more than that.

Hence some of the Jan Fennell book seeming logical, although I also disagree with a lot of what she says. I think the eating thing is possibly a good idea, but I must admit I'm not so sure about the greeting thing, as you say it seems so sad not to reward him for bouncing around when he sees me, which is a good thing, so perhaps I'll not go down that route after all.

Its a wierd problem as you can avoid his aggression completely by not approaching him in certain circumstances but its just not practical to keep that up when I need him to move from one place to another. Also he's already acting differently with me and my husband, he was being soppy on me (another thing JF would say I shouldnt do is have him on my lap) but then went for my hubby when he sat by me and stroked him (sitting by me was fine, just the going to stroke him).

Have you seen the first lord of the rings? his aggression is not dissimilar to when bilbo baggins gets the ring and snarls etc! You dont get any warning, no warning growl, just full on snarling hurling teeth. This is another reason why I dont think its fear aggression but more possessive aggression, from my experience in kennels frightened dogs warn you with growls when you get too near.

Hubby is of the opinion that being 9 is too old to change his behaviour but I dont buy that and he is so sweet when he's being nice that he obviously has the capacity to be nice. I went on the internet to find out more about it but I've not found anything that seems v helpful yet, just lots of people claiming to be behaviourists.

Anyway, will keep you updated, its really early days and the problem might reduce as he settles, a home environment must be so different to kennels. Its so nice to see him curled up or trotting around the park (am just getting used to the extendable lead, got in quite a tangle when walked through some woods!! - have to have an extendable one to make sure he doesnt run off or attack any other people/dogs) that I am very glad we adopted him and am confident I can deal with his problems, even if they never get better and I have to train myself about how to deal with him, but am sure they will get better.

HI Alexis
I'm in Surrey so possibly a bit far but I'd love to phone someone and would pay for a good phone consultation. Besides I don't really want someone to come out to see him because he's fine as long as you don't go too near his bed and I don't want to demonstrate what he does when you do - partly for the safety of the person and partly because of stress to him.
I'm not really into JF, some of the stuff she said interested me etc but I'd much rather go down a +R route etc.
If you could give me her number it would be much appreciated.

Hi Suz

Sorry, I know I'm drawing conclusions very rapidly from not much information but everything you've said so far ties in really closely with my understanding of what nervous aggression is. ie he knows what he can cope with, human company on his terms but the minute things get too much he snaps, like when he was sitting on your knee with your husband there too he could cope (or even choose to put himself in the situation) but husband touching him as well was just the final straw.

The term "fear-aggression" makes it sound very black and white but I would imagine most pets aren't like that. They have learnt to tolerate/cope with/like human company up to a point but if you stretch them too far then the fear overrides the acceptance.

But having said that, whether it is fear or possessiveness (in which case we would need to wonder why he is possessive and question whether that was originally initiated by fear?) it doesn't really make much difference in how you retrain him - you still want to stick to the principles of learning and behaviour the way we all do with the horses. And you know this stuff anyway so I wouldn't worry too much if you can't find a local dog trainer who actually says things you agree with!

You may be right about the fact that he doesn't give any warning growl but that may also be due to his previous experiences. Like when horses will kick with no warning because they've learnt that the stupid humans don't pay any attention to their early subtle warnings, he may have given warning growls in the past and then realised that people didn't pay any attention - maybe they even punished him for the growls so he went straight for the bite. So the behaviour escalated - back to shaping unwanted behaviours again! Maybe anyway - it's not unfeasible and every dog is different.

Considering how recently you got your dog it sounds as though he's coping incredibly well and I'm sure it won't take long for him to settle. You probably don't want to worry about deliberately training anything for a while as just being in a new home is such a huge learning experience.

Another excellent book is How Dogs Learn - have you seen that one? And I've had "The Culture Clash" and "At the other end of the leash" recommended to me many times by various people, although I haven't actually read them yet (they've just arrived in a big box of Christmas shopping from Amazon, some of which wasn't even for me!)

Catherine x

Hi,a good person to contact would be the founder of www.canine-angels.co.uk the e-mail is acoupar@btopenworld.com They have an open forum on the website and are very happy to help and give advice.They are very much into using positive reinforcement, and would be more than pleased to help you with your dog problems. Sorry if someone has already recommended this book but 'The Culture Clash' by Jean Donaldson, James & Kenneth Publishers is worth reading. Good luck with your dog, love Sue

Hiya

I'm no dog expert but I have read 'How Dogs Learn' and 'The Culture Clash' and I would highly recommend these books as good reference points, although I'm not keen on the step-by-step methods of training set out in 'The Culture Clash' but it may give you food for thought.

Be careful not to compare dog and horse behaviour too closely. Although, I'm not into the JF 'method' of training as I'm not into the dominance 'method' of training in horses, you can't detract from one being a prey animal and one being a preditor.

Mx

I agree that The Culture Clash is a good book for reference while keeping an open mind, but also agree with Marie about the step-by-step training aspect.

Also, Jean Donaldson says in the book that dogs don't learn from each other - huh?!

Suzanne - Have emailed you Dawn's number. HTH Alexis

Thanks for that Alexis, I phoned but answer phone says to call back on Monday so I'll do that. I also phoned a vets that has a big behaviour center but they need me to take him to the vets for a health check first, which is fair enough but I'm not quite up to a waiting room full of other dogs and a vet prodding him etc., recipe for disaster.
Also at this stage I'm really after some phone advice (can pay for if necessary) then it would be more appropriate for a behaviourist to see him when he's settled down perhaps. I don't really want a behaviourist coming to 'see what he likes and doesnt' as he gets so 'upset' after a snarling episode I want to just avoid them as much as possible.
Something noticed is that he comes to talk to you, very friendly etc, then climbs onto your lap, but once there his body posture changes a little and although you can stroke him he's sort of 'like a coiled spring' and if anyone else came towards me when he's like that he'd go for them, I'm sure. I think he does feel protective or something over the person he's sitting on. But when he settles down he goes to sleep on you.
Perhaps there is something in the JF theory of dogs sitting on you. I dont agree with the monty roberts style with horses etc, but feel that (as Marie has said above) dogs and horses being predators and prey are different kettles of fish and perhaps some of the JF methods make some sense....I need to look into it a bit more. I am quite up on training methods with friendly dogs but the aggressive side is more than a training issue I think so am looking for a doggy behavioural person to speak to who is into +R but has experience with a variety of issues.

Hi Suzanne

It is my understanding that most dogs are not 'trained' very well during their lifetimes - certainly is true for my dog and I'm the first to admit that we bought a dog as a puppy and didn't have a clue about training and just kind of left it to chance.

By doing this you can run into problems with the dog not being trained out of certain 'natural' behaviours, just like if you don't train a horse they will usually resort to 'natural' behaviours to deal with situations, such as flight if something scares them. With my own dog, he is very posessive of food and if you try to take food away from him, he will growl and then snap at you and possibly bite - he is only doing what comes naturally to him and as a preditor protecting food is quite a natural thing to do. We deal with this situation by not taking food off him - for us it was a workable solution although I accept probably not ideal.

I'm not sure but are dogs territorial (I'm sure they are)? If so, defending his 'spot' could be quite a natural thing for him to do if he has never been taught otherwise. I presume as he is a rescue dog you don't know his history, so as many of the above ideas are very feasible I would also question if he is just doing what dogs do naturally becasue he hasn't been trained in any other way. If this is the case, you may find that working through a training plan (maybe an adapted puppy training plan) could help but obviously make sure that there are no other issues involved such as pain or medical problems. I'm sure though that a dog expert will be able to help you out with that

Mx

I've been having a think about this and here are my thoughts (which are just thoughts and not advice as I'm no expert either).

As it's only been a few days since this little chap has moved to a new home after years in kennels and god knows what before that, I wonder whether just letting him settle into your home and family at his own pace, without too much focus on him for the time being, might help. Let him have his bed as his safe space (as you are) and let him approach you but don't try to touch him. If he chooses to sit on your lap, let him but again don't touch him with your hands, just sit comfortably and be with him in a relaxed way, perhaps while watching the telly or reading a book so your focus is elsewhere.

I can understand your reluctance to use treats as he's snappy, but could you try dropping the treat into a bowl on the floor?

If you do go the treat route, either now or later, I've found the most motivating treats for dogs are those frankfurther sausages you can buy in plastic packets (not the tinned ones). They're moist but not soggy (so easy to handle and good for dropping into bowls without bouncing out), easy to scent, keep well in the fridge for days and you can chop them up into tiny pieces to prevent doggy from getting too podgy.

Phone advice may not be of much help to you although you may pick up some general starter tips, but I'm a firm believer in the behaviour expert needing to see not only the dog, but you, your husband, other family members and the home environment too. I would imagine that any good behaviour expert would want to visit you to make as full an assessment as possible before giving advice as all situations are individual.

Hi

I'm no expert on dogs. But we have a lurcherx collie
who we had similiar problems with. Chained up most of
her life, had never really interacted with people and
didn't know what a child was!!! and didn't know how to
play. She was also aggressive in certain situations,
particularly if you got too close to her when she was
lying down. I had just discovered ct. so used this
form of training which worked really well with her. We
taught her how to play with balls and toys by clicking
and rewarding when sniffed them then progressed from their until she was retrieving well. We then progressed with children ( i don't have any) so borrowed the neighbours. She was actually quite frightened of them as they dart around so quick!! We
got little people to throw the ball in a field for her
and within 2/3 weeks of being constantly exposed to
these alien creatures she decided that they were ok
and now spends as much time with them as she can. This all took about 3/4 month's to achieve the aggression side with us subsided with time when she learnt to trust us. We still can't stop her from walking along the kitchen work units though!! She sits
on the sink unit looking out the window waiting for us to come in.

Good luck with your dog I hope it works out for both of you.

Jackie

Well, had a lovely weekend, he's changed already. His body posture and body language is a lot more relaxed now, when he's pottling around as well as when he's lying down - he just seems to be settling.

Had some lovely walks, he spent the whole of Saturday evening lying on or next to me snoring and his bean bag has been less of an 'issue' for him. He doesn't race to it when he comes back in the room, he has started to lie down in other places and he comes off it when called now 70% of time rather than 10%. I think we're getting somewhere and its still SO early days so am optimistic about him and his behaviour.

We obviously haven't put him in any situation when he'd be likely to be aggressive, like going to stroke him in his bed, but still feel as if we're getting somewhere and are taking it slowly. His body posture when he's in his bed and we walk past isn't so tense now.

Thanks for your help everyone. The canine-angels forum thing was helpful, the lady PMed me separately and said to carry on doing what we're doing and maybe consult a behaviourist in a few weeks depending on what he's doing..

Hi Suzanne,
Well done you for taking this dog on. I have the contact details at home for a trainer who does the ClickerUK Challenges and works with Kay Lawrence a lot. I think he and his wife are up in Caterham and run a training club there. His name is David Bayliss. I'll find his details when I get home.

I don't think it matters too much that you're using 'bribery' as opposed to out and out CT, although our dog was possessive about his bones when we first got him. With CT and +R this was very quickly solved. He was also snappy with treats, so one of the first commands was 'wait', so that he took them gently and we moved on from there.

Lastly, if you go to Karen Pryor's website, there's a link there to all the clubs in the UK. It may be that as you're more Guildford way there's one a bit closer than David, in Hampshire or West Sussex.

Just thought I'd let you know how we're getting on as you all had such good advice. The canine-angels people were brilliant. Its now about a month since we adopted him, and we can approach him on his bed, take toys from him without a growl, approach him wherever he is etc and so he's come on a huge amount. We did this by +R and lots of active and fun training sessions.

He loves his sessions of 'sit, down, stay, come' etc so we incorporated 'being approached' in his sessions by asking him to stay, walking away, but then walking back again before asking him to lie down etc. At first he didnt like the being approached bit even in this way (with treats!) but he got better v quickly and is now 'normal' in that respect.
He's fine meeting strangers out of the house, nervous when they're in his house but that's logical. He gets nervous and hides and if they approached him I'm sure he would bite but we're working on that by getting strangers to ask him to sit/down/stay etc and he responds well to them so its just a question of time and not pushing him but keeping it all in his 'comfort zone'.

The rescue center said they kept expecting us to return him but they're not having him back!!

Its a great experience using +R etc on something in your own home, and seeing the results so quickly and so practically. If Jake (my horse) lived in my lounge and I had to get it off the sofa etc I think we'd both benefit and progress would be faster than it is now!

I've somewhat lost impetus with Jake and CT. I've put some behaviours on cue that I hadn't before (touching plastic bags and sort-of pawing the ground) but got to a few dead-ends. I was trying to shape him into picking up a grooming brush but am not getting even the tiniest lip movement to shape this and he gets frustrated when touching it doesn't get a click etc.
I used CT again at the start of the puddle season (he'd forgotten puddles were OK from last winter) so that was good but am feeling a little uninspired!!

Which is silly really as I could shape anything, he just doesnt really 'do' anything shapable, if he's on the yard he stands as still as a rock and looks sleepy and if he's in the school and I'm not asking him to do anything he goes off and munches grass. As I type this though I realise how silly it sounds and should try harder to look for things etc...just feeling a bit stuck between being v keen to try new things and actually finding something I want to try....Keep meaning to get some polythene etc to go over in the school, perhaps that will be a good way to go.

Really interested to hear you find it easier to shape your dog than your horse, I'm the other way round.

I'm currently shaping Oliver see :-

http://www.tonypresland.internat.co.uk/CatsandDogs/Twiglet.htm

to down with his head on the floor and it has taken three sessions I generally find shaping Skunkie (my horse) easier.

Emma - if you're reading Twiglet is going great guns

Suz - well done you, glad to hear things are going so well

And thanks for the photo Alexis

awwww, I want a dog....

Hi
Yes, I have found shaping Cannes (dog) easier than Jake. He tends to crawl on his stomach sometimes and so I managed to shape this and put it on cue, same with walking on his hind legs...although they were both behaviours he offered a lot anyway and found v easy to shape and cue.
I have target-trained a few friend's horses and they all get it quicker than Jake and are a bit more 'active' in offering behaviours. For me to get jake to touch a target and then to be able to put it on the floor etc or to throw it and touch it took many sessions but when I introduced the clicker to my friend's TB, he went from not knowing what a clicker was to following it when thrown in one session. I dont think I did anything differently. Another friend's welsh cob I've shaped to pick up a grooming brush but just can't with Jake....

Oliver is like your Jake glad to hear it is going so well with Cannes.