Sorry, this is not a behviour thread, but many of the members here have much knowledge about hooves/feet etc., well much more than me anyway!!
Today I have had the farrier to shoe my new horse (I've had him 7 weeks). 9 Year old, Irish Sport Horse, he's turned out in a Winter turnout field from 6.30am to 6pm, stabled at night on straw. I school and/or jump 4 evenings per week, lesson on a Saturday and fast hack on a Sunday, I've hunted him as well to give him some variety over the Winter.
The farrier tells me he has good hooves/feet generally but that his frogs are "poor".
He showed me, and the only way I can describe it, where there are raggedy holes where fluid (not puss) was seeping out of his frogs. His frogs are not sore, both I and the farrier pressed really hard with no reaction at all from Pie.
I do trust my farrier to shoe him well, he has shod my other mare for 4 years now without any problems whatsoever in fact she's never even lost a shoe between shoeing and has never been lame or foot sore!!!!
My problem is that when I asked the farrier if there was anything I could do about the frogs the only thing he could suggest was washing his feet each evening with salt water, he also didn't know too much about what this was but did say that he often sees it in horses (maybe he really didn't know or didn't want to go into the scientifics of it who knows). I take Pie to a yard a couple of miles away to be shod and it was so busy there - lots other people around, horses being led passed etc., I didn't push to point too much as it was just so busy.
Sorry, this is so long wanted to give some history etc., Anyway, does anyone who is more knowledgable about horses feet that me (will freely admit I know VERY little) know anything about this?, Do you feel that it could potentially lead to further problems and if so what?, is there anything I should or could do to help the frogs be healthier and to heal?
I feed, speedibeet, Alpah A with a feed balancer, twice a day with good quality hay, he probably gets half a bale of hay a day total. Is there any feed or supplement anyone knows of that specifically target the frog?
Not sure how 'scientifically' correct this is, but it was a vet who has studied this sort of thing who told me, so hopefully I'm not mis-quoting him. The hoof is designed so that the frog acts as a shock asborber and because of this aids circulation. when you put a shoe on, you stop the frog from touching the ground and therefore fulfilling its purpose. In this way the frog becomes contracted and can become diseased. I would suggest if his hooves are strong as your farrier seems to think then take his shoes off. Washing with salt water isn't going to do any harm and will help to keep the area clean so that any infection that may be there can escape. Don't worry about him being without shoes, read a few of the other threads on this subject and you can hopefully see that as long the hooves are conditioned properly he should be fine.
Thanks for your post I figured that salt water would not "damage" in any way but was more wondering that if its not an infection or "thrush" like symptoms what the need for this would be?
I have been researching going barefoot and was directed to the www.barefoothorse.com website which has a brilliant transition strategy and trimming transition strategy for the change to barefoot.
I haven't quite had the nerve to take the plunge, for two main reason:
1. I have tried to find a farrier in my area who knows and who is willing to help with this and who also wouldn't mind me directing him to the various more knowlegeable websites/books etc to aid with this. Unfortunately, I can't at the moment find one, not only can I not find one who will be receptive to how to help with the transition period I haven't managed to talk to one who would be willing to continue to trim and help me with on an ongoing basis for a horse in full "work". I've spoken with 5 farriers who I've met at the yard where Pie gets shod, they are really "great blokes" but do not seem receptive to helping Pie and I go barefoot.
2. From reading up on all the information regarding barefoot horses, one of the very best ways to help in the transition period is full 24 hour turnout in a very large field so that a minmum of 10miles can be covered whilst grazing throughout the day. The yard we're at at present we have to bring the horses in at night for Jan, Feb & March and then hopefully next April I can turn Pie out into a 35 acre field with approximately 9 other horses, so if I do manage to find a farrier this is also a possibilty.
I would dearly love to go barefoot, Pie does have some flaring but thankfully I cannot see any severe white line separation but of course there will inevitably be some damage and if he was a young colt and had never been shod, I would never shoe him. In fact, after reading all the info regarding unshod to shod horses if I am ever lucky enough to own a youngster I would not choose to put shoes on them regardless of the activities I wish to do with them.
This being said, Pie has been shod for the last 6 years as far as I know (I've only had him 8 weeks) and really I'm looking for something which may help with his frog sort of NOW.
Also, if anyone DOES know of a farrier in West Yorkshire who would be willing to visit me and Pie and see if he can advise, help etc., in going barefoot then please can you let me know.
I too have problems with my horse's frogs - they look narrow and ragged and as soon as they start to look as though they have grown a bit then the thing just dies and drops off again. But I think there is general improvement, more so when I am getting lots of riding in so the growth is getting a bit more stimulation (or so I understand it). I am pretty sure that they are starting to get a little wider. As Lucy said, the shoeing can lead to contraction of the heels and frog.
Decontraction can be a long process - unfortunately there isn't really anything that I can suggest that will sort things out now! It may be worth soaking his feet in broad spectrum anti-fungal/bacterial/viral products to kill any thrush or fungal infection which may be present. Unfortunately this can be a bit of a minefield, as you will have seen if you're read Pat and Carol's posts on one of the other barefoot threads. There are lots of products and lots of infections and it is trial and error in trying to find the right one (sorry!). I have tried virkon (FMD disinfectant) and hoof+sole (NAF paint on product) and whether they made any difference I can't say. I think it is patience I need more than soaking products!
Other than that it is a case of waiting for decontraction. Barefoot is probably the best way of correcting that, especially if your horse has good feet and it is what you have been wanting to do. The alternative might be cytek shoeing - some people rave about it, some wouldn't touch it with a bargepole (and I think I probably come into the latter category but haven't exactly done a careful study!)
Jane Berresford has lots of clients in Yorkshire and is the person I would recommend more than anyone else. Unfortunately she only does the trimming part time and finds it hard to take on more clients. But if you can get hold of her (no mean feat!) or at least see her give a talk, which she does from time to time, then it would really benefit you. If you send me an email catherine.brocksopp at tesco.net then I'll send you her contact details.
If you really can't find a farrier who will trim for you then you could consider going on a KC La Pierre trimming course (see thread from Justine below). It's scary when you first start but if the horse has good feet and is in work then you will find that there is actually very little that needs doing most of the time. It's best to allow horses to self-trim wherever possible.
Yes, 24 hour turnout is best if you can get it but it's not the end of the world if you can't (and it is only really Dr. Strasser who claims that all barefoot horses must be out 24/7). KC has clients with horses who are stabled 24/7 and go barefoot, have good feet etc - not ideal (for many reasons!) but possible. If your fields are wet during the winter and there is no hard standing then it can even be a good thing for horses to come in at night to allow their feet to dry out and not get too soft.
Thank you for your post, it was the first time I'd plucked up the courage to post and I was worried that because I'd put I hunted it had offended people, sorry if it has, I was trying to give as much information for an informed post as possible.
I'll send you an email shortly as I would like Jane Berresford's contact details. I too feel that Cytek shoeing would not be for Pie and me.
I've been directed also to the www.ibem.org.uk which is for the Institute of Barefoot Management. My gut feel at the moment is to go on a KC Pierre course, and hopefully if I can "hook" up with some experienced trimmers in Yorkshire in the long run aim to "trim" my own horses feet.
I agree about the 24 hour turnout, sometimes its just not possible, although personally I do believe that my horses prefer to go out for the majority of the day with their herd which hopefully keeps them sane and their sense of wellbeing is maintained. My husband and I are frantically (we've sold our house & are living at my Mother-in-Laws) looking for a new property with land of our own which will then give me the choice to choose how to manage my horses in the best way for both them and me from a care point of view.
Still, taking the shoes off a competition horse who has traditionally being shod for most of his adult life is scary - the worries are:
1. What if I lame him forever?
2. What if he finds it really difficult to compete (I aim to One Day Event) with him, and he just doesn't enjoy the "going"?
I guess I would like to go on one the courses and get in touch with people and visit them and their horses to see how they have managed the situation from shod to barefoot.
Thank you once again for your well informed and considered response.
Regards
Jo
PS: I've started washing the frogs and hooves with salt water and sprying the frog with iodine, will see how we go at the next shoeing when his frog is trimmed again.
I'm just about to send you an email, but if we can arrange for you to come and see Crunchie he went barefoot about 4 months ago so you could have a gander at his hoofies if you like (although Im not a barefoot expert!). He is stabled overnight during the winter and he is coping really well on the stone paths around us.
Also, my farrier trims Crunchies feet - I've not really got the bottle or the training to do it myself and he seems to be keeping his hooves quite short himself anyway so the farrier only takes a small amount away when he comes.
If his frogs have always been this way and you're not in a position to go barefoot, my suggestion is by far the easiest!
Nothing.
As in do nothing. He shows no sign of discomfort and his frogs are not affecting his hoof quality as a shod and working horse.
As for barefoot, having a supportive farrier means a world of difference if you cannot trim yourself. Keep looking - it'll be worth it. Don't worry about the 24/7 thing either. In this climate it's sometimes not a bad thing to have a stable!!! I think you'd find a general improvement in the frog if you did go barefoot, but if you have a fit, hunting horse you need to be prepared that you may have to give all that a miss next season.
Having said that, I rode my pony out this afternoon and was amazed at how he trotted over little stones on the tarmac. These were our achilles heel when he first went barefoot. I had to be careful where I rode, for how long etc but it's all worth it. In hindsight I'd actually say his transition would have been faster if I HADN'T been so careful where I rode! Just an idea if you take the plunge.
Thanks for your post. Yes, I see what you mean about doing "nothing", if there isn't a problem now lets not try to create one. As Pie is the only horse I've had who has had frogs like this I guess I was hoping that someone could say, "hey, its OK" sort of some comfort for me, which you have all done really.
I am at present in touch with Justine Jenkins who is a K C La Pierre registered trimmer and runs courses in the UK in Wales, with a view to hopefully go on one of the courses to learn to "trim", obviously would need to feel totally confident before doing this. The good thing about this is that her partner events their barefoot horses without any problems it seems. I hopefully going to be talking to Justine to see when I can go on the courses and talk through more about making the transition.
I figured that Pie would need to be off work, and would probably want to co-incide it with Winter, so would be looking to take his shoes off around September time this year.
When did you first take your horses shoes off?, what kind of riding to you ususally do, i.e., do you jump, hack, pleasure ride? How have you found it?
just to add a couple of points. Firstly I doubt that you will improve the quality of your frogs to any great degree with shoes on. If he is barefoot then the frog will be in ground contact on landing and it will start to stimulate and improve the frog.
Next point however is that I am not sure if you have thrush or fungus. It is very likely that you may have, lots of horses do in the UK climate. If you have and you take your shoes off your horse may well be sore as a result of this. Naff hoof and sole appears to be the best product at the moment and if you are thinking of taking your shoes off then it would be worth attacking any infection beforehand.
Next point is if you are in West Yorks there is a vet called Hanne Engstrom at Wakefield. She specialises in teeth but also has an interest in barefoot and I think she translated part of the barefoothorse.com site that someone has already mentioned.
She may be able to put you in touch with other barefooters in your area and she may be able to recomend farriers to support you if Jane B cannot trim for you.
To contact Hanne go to her site www.equinedentistry.info/
Finally it is quite possible to take your horse barefoot and hunt, event etc etc but it will take time, lots of it.
Some horses transition quickly and some slowly. You will have to allow a lot of time and start by leading the horse in hand for 10 minutes a day on smooth tarmac, building up over a period of weeks to something like an hours ridden road walking.
You will have to allow for the fact that you will have to disrupt your horses career in eventing and hunting for a year.
There is is the school of thought that barefoot horses should live out 24/7. In the UK that does not do the feet a great deal of good especially in winter. Our ridden horses spend time wandering in their concrete yards each day and also on rubber matting. This keeps the feet dry (as opposed to standing in muddy fields) and also the concrete serves to continually condition the feet. We also aim to ride for an hour a day on tarmac and you may well have to incorporate something like this into your regime if your horse is going to have good enough quality feet to hunt in winter.
My farrier removed my horses shoes last March, and last week was the first time he trimmed them,he felt they'd been doing a good enough job of self trimming.
I'd had the same anxieties about the trimming, would my farrier be o.k., should I go on a course and do it myself. My advice would be to find someone who's opinion you trust and feel confident with, who's able to support you through the transition , and stick with them.
I decided on my farrier as he's done lots of work abroad, is knowledgable and intersted in many tecniques, remedial shoeing and has won various awards. So when he's repeatedly said they don't need trimming iv'e trusted him ! ( and they do look beautiful hooves now !)
My horse is stabled overnight in the Winter. I didn't do competition, just hacking and clicker training.
Jo
Since there is no problem currently, apart from your farriers comments, I too would be inclined to do nothing for now unless you discover through your research that it could lead to problems in the medium term.
However as a note re: barefoot etc. My lad has not had back shoes on for over 3 years now because of his epsm and and inability for him to control his back legs long enough to shoe. So this was a 'no choice' option. However he has good horn and manages exceedingly well - so much so that up until last farrier visit, his feet weren't even trimmed and they are in cracking good shape and condition. He never goes foot sore even on roads but he is not in as much work as Pie.
Perhaps back shoes off could be an interesting test option for you - if it helps the frog improve then you have the answer and could be more tempted to remove the fronts. Usually it is the front feet that horses suffer more on if barefoot (if they are going to be footsore) than the back ones
Just another thought for you
hi jo, i've just joined this group, having been introduced by lucy dentith. i picked up this string as i keep barefoot horses in north yorks. i've used jane berresford as a trimmer for over two years and she is brilliant. i know she's hard to get hold of but it's worth persisting as she is so good.
however, we have a very active Natural Horse Group going in Yorkshire (and going national too) and we are running two-day courses on hoof trimming with les spark in county durham. les is a top endurance rider and competes barefoot. the course is designed for people who have already gone barefoot and it teaches you basic physiology, how to handle tools and a simple approach to keeping the hooves correct. to find out more contact lesley holehouse on 01325 730648.
i am also running a day on april 4th in north yorks to introduce people to barefoot horse keeping, looking at our horses and discussing the boarding requirements. email me off group if you want to know more.
before i went barefoot i used cytek shoes for 2 years. i was very pleased at the time but i wouldn't now recommend them as i think they still pull the foot out of shape. i am completely converted to barefoot and we have Group members who are successfully keeping horses barefoot in conventional livery yards where they are boxed at night, so it can be done in less than perfect circumstances. if you feel you must shoe, then natural balance (similar shape to cytek, but hot shod and fitted to the horse, rather than the horse fitting the shoe) is probably a better option.
hope all this helps,
rachel
