Had an awful night last night and had almost decided to contact rescue centers to see if any would take Jake from me. This is me who wanted to keep him until he dies...Today I have some perseverance left but I am really stuck!

As from my previous posts, had Jake over a year, been doing really well, hacking out on our own, schooling coming on (he was a v green 5-6 yr old when I got him) and had been having loads of fun with the clicker training and really bonding. I could pfaff with him and groom him and he'd go to sleep leaning against me. The lovliest horse ever.

Then he had back problems starting in January (but if I'm honest he probably started a small tail swish when being tacked up in December, I put it down to increased schooling, but he was always great under saddle) he's now been given the all-clear physically but has severe behavioural problems, probably due to remembered pain.

At one stage if you touched his back he'd sort of hop and ears back etc, (so got saddler out, not saddle, vet out, xrays, physio etc) then it sorts of spread to ears back and tail swishing and skin twitching when I was touching him and now I can't approach him without being kicked at (double barrells with a twist in the air in my direction) and lunges with teeth. Actually i can easily catch him and lead him, just not approach him when he's tied on the yard, or over his stable door. I'd managed up until last night to take it slowly, groom the bits he is happy with and work back being calm, rewarding him etc and ending up with a relatively calm horse but last night he was just all teeth and legs and I couldnt even pick his feet out. Every time I moved my hand away from my side he'd kick out and try to bite me. There isnt much grass so I've been giving him a hay net on the yard which he never used to get but although it makes him better in some ways he gets possessive about it and so worse in others.

I spoke to my vet, who is doing the EBQ and is very into behaviour and CT and PR and she made me feel better and talked about how he's just going mad with pairing associations so he now remembers being groomed etc as a pre-requisite to back pain but its just so odd. I'd called her out as soon as he was being reluctant to being tacked up and the saddle had been checked so he can't have been in pain for very long at all. Also, I do know how to help try to break the associations and work through it in some ways but when I come to put it into practise but have a horse doing its best to hurt me my logic goes out the window and I just get out of the way (although not quite quickly enough and have been bitten hard a few times, I'm black and blue).

The physio suggested getting out Richard Maxwell, Kelly Marks, people like that but I don't want anything other than a PR trainer, and there aren't many around. My vet is coming out on friday hopefully to help me with him but she can't be there every day! Its wierd, I know so much theory about horses, learning theory, behaviour in some ways but when it comes to Jake I just get nervous around him (even though I do my best not to show it to him).

Anyone out there experienced anything like this? I just don't really understand. I feel I must be doing something wrong, somehow rewarding the horrible behaviour but I just can't work out what I'm doing. ALthough the vet disagreed and thinks it is more likely to be him and his mental state rather than what I'm doing. He's horrible, if not worse, with anyone else.

Actually, he is nice SOMETIMES on the lunge, ears forward, generally happy disposition and when we do any clicker work. Both of which happen in the school, which is where he was ridden and therefore where he should associate with back pain, if that's what started all this!! I can touch him more in the school too but havent tried picking his feet out in there as if I got kicked in the head noone woudl discover until the next morning!

He hasnt been ridden since January so that in itself is a big routine change as he was being ridden 5 times a week. He is being lunged (10-15 mins) or having a CT session probably on average every other day.

I know I need to take it slowly, work on the touch sensitization, then eventually work on being able to put a handkercheif, numnah and finally saddle on his back etc but when I'm next to a biting kicking horse I am struggling to do anything with, I get really upset!

Any ideas at all? I know some of you have worked with quite dangerous/scared horses. Anyone experience of a horse totally sensitive to being touched?

I'm sorry you're having so many problems, I have met your vet through the EBQ, you most certainly are in the very best hands!
Here's a thought do you always have Jake tied up when you groom him? What about leaving him loose on the yard or in the field, that way he can leave if it all gets too much, rather than having to resort to violence to get his point across. I don't know how practical this would be for you but it may be worth a try. If he isn't food aggressive what about having a pile of hay/food on the ground while your grooming him? If its on the ground rather than in a haynet, you are promoting calm as opposed to head up and tense.
I have a similar situation with my mare, I'm having a tough time helping her to become touch acceptant. I found that having a headcollar on was masking her problems not improving them.

First I'm sorry to hear that you are having a bad time but don't loose confidence in yourself. I asume that your vet is Amber (?) so speak to her in detail about your problems. She is the best person to advise as she is there with you and can see the problems you have. Ask her to put her behavioural hat on (she should be looking for case studies soon) and try to get her to see Jaks reactions to you. Best of luck and don't give up yet!
Janx

First I'm sorry to hear that you are having a bad time but don't loose confidence in yourself. I asume that your vet is Amber (?) so speak to her in detail about your problems. She is the best person to advise as she is there with you and can see the problems you have. Ask her to put her behavioural hat on (she should be looking for case studies soon) and try to get her to see Jaks reactions to you. Best of luck and don't give up yet!
Janx

Hi

Thanks for your replies so quickly.

Yes, Amber is my vet, which is something I am very glad about!

When I'm with him in the school doing CT he does it without a headcollar and leadrope and is better at being touched than on the yard but I haven't tried touching him in the school much; because the school is away from everyone if he kicks me badly and I don't want anyone to 'watch' as they all think I should be hitting him so I could go down this route. Amber suggested tying him up in a new place, outside a friend's (horse) stable etc so I'll try that too.

I think the thing I'm most frustrated about is that its getting worse not better, and that's why I'm over-analysing what I could be doing wrong, also its so often the owners that are doing silly things, we all see it all the time. In addition its just knowing how nice he used to be that frustrates me. I love solving problems, with the clicker we solved puddle problems, leading problems (went through a phase of being a bit bargy) and standing nicely for the mounting block problems and I have tackled all those really well (although I do say so myself!). This is different though as its so dangerous....

Anyway, thanks for your replies. Amber is going to phone me tomorrow to arrange a visit and see how he's been so will keep you updated with plans/news.

Feeling a bit better now!

Just re-read my reply and obviously I mean go down the route of trying to touch him in the school without any ropes etc not down the route of hitting him!

Also I'm doing the first module of the EBQ soon (end of the month) looking forward to it...

Hi Suzanne

Don't loose hope Keeping yourself safe is a priority - what good will you be for Jake if you get hurt? Can you let Jake have a break and stay in the field for a while, just being around him without any agenda for grooming etc, until you can get some professional help with this?

Mx

Oooh! I hope you enjoy your first module! I think even with the info in mod 1, you will be able to find something to help both you and Jake find a way through this.
Good Luck.

sorry to hear about your problems with jak. first off i think he would be better loose in the school, could oh or even a non horsey friend come and watch. if this isn't possible and even if it is you might want to try touching every were but his back and other areas he gets tense about. this should break down the negative accosiation with your touch particurly if you use high value treats. it also sounds like jak needs to re establish trust in u at the moment, so don't concentrate on the back or feet for a few weeks. just play around with targeting leading and liberty work and possible work with plastic or anything he's slightly nervouse of once he's improveing as this (if it goes well) should also boost his confidence.
once you want to get back to the actualy problem you need to work realy slowly, do lots of head lowering and break up sessions with bouts of play and other clicker stuff. regards touching his back i think he maybe sees your hand as something that can cause pain because of past experience, there's two ways to get the initial touching if this is so a, you can use a fake hand, whip that he's not afraid of or anything else that will let you touch him with out him thinking hand=pain. once he can be touched you can press the fake hand bendy whip or whatever your useing gently but firmly against his back so he realises that it doesn't cause pain. at the moment he's too caught up in the handss=pain thinking process to learn well. please note you should be just as sensitive and reinforce just as much with this technique as you are when useing your hand. once jak realises that physical touch there won't cause pain he will be more willing to accept your hands which you can introduce by gradualy moveing them down the fake arm/whip handle until there touching his back.
regards the feet, you need to teach him a stand cue for up to a minute useing +re and free shapeing then useing the fake hand and lots of calm targeting touch his legs all over and gradualy progress to touching with your hand and lifting.
good luck you sound commited to him.

sorry to hear about your problems with jak. first off i think he would be better loose in the school, could oh or even a non horsey friend come and watch. if this isn't possible and even if it is you might want to try touching every were but his back and other areas he gets tense about. this should break down the negative accosiation with your touch particurly if you use high value treats. it also sounds like jak needs to re establish trust in u at the moment, so don't concentrate on the back or feet for a few weeks. just play around with targeting leading and liberty work and possible work with plastic or anything he's slightly nervouse of once he's improveing as this (if it goes well) should also boost his confidence.
once you want to get back to the actualy problem you need to work realy slowly, do lots of head lowering and break up sessions with bouts of play and other clicker stuff. regards touching his back i think he maybe sees your hand as something that can cause pain because of past experience, there's two ways to get the initial touching if this is so a, you can use a fake hand, whip that he's not afraid of or anything else that will let you touch him with out him thinking hand=pain. once he can be touched you can press the fake hand bendy whip or whatever your useing gently but firmly against his back so he realises that it doesn't cause pain. at the moment he's too caught up in the handss=pain thinking process to learn well. please note you should be just as sensitive and reinforce just as much with this technique as you are when useing your hand. once jak realises that physical touch there won't cause pain he will be more willing to accept your hands which you can introduce by gradualy moveing them down the fake arm/whip handle until there touching his back.
regards the feet, you need to teach him a stand cue for up to a minute useing +re and free shapeing then useing the fake hand and lots of calm targeting touch his legs all over and gradualy progress to touching with your hand and lifting.
good luck you sound commited to him.

sorry to hear about your problems with jak. first off i think he would be better loose in the school, could oh or even a non horsey friend come and watch. if this isn't possible and even if it is you might want to try touching every were but his back and other areas he gets tense about. this should break down the negative accosiation with your touch particurly if you use high value treats. it also sounds like jak needs to re establish trust in u at the moment, so don't concentrate on the back or feet for a few weeks. just play around with targeting leading and liberty work and possible work with plastic or anything he's slightly nervouse of once he's improveing as this (if it goes well) should also boost his confidence.
once you want to get back to the actualy problem you need to work realy slowly, do lots of head lowering and break up sessions with bouts of play and other clicker stuff. regards touching his back i think he maybe sees your hand as something that can cause pain because of past experience, there's two ways to get the initial touching if this is so a, you can use a fake hand, whip that he's not afraid of or anything else that will let you touch him with out him thinking hand=pain. once he can be touched you can press the fake hand bendy whip or whatever your useing gently but firmly against his back so he realises that it doesn't cause pain. at the moment he's too caught up in the handss=pain thinking process to learn well. please note you should be just as sensitive and reinforce just as much with this technique as you are when useing your hand. once jak realises that physical touch there won't cause pain he will be more willing to accept your hands which you can introduce by gradualy moveing them down the fake arm/whip handle until there touching his back.
regards the feet, you need to teach him a stand cue for up to a minute useing +re and free shapeing then useing the fake hand and lots of calm targeting touch his legs all over and gradualy progress to touching with your hand and lifting.
good luck you sound commited to him.

didn't mean to post three times

Thanks horsey guy. I forgot about the whip idea...even after doing a workshop with Sarah Fisher (TTEAM; and on TV) who uses the technique a lot. I might well try to start work on that tonight. I like the idea of doing things that don't involve me having to be in the danger zone...

Someone else does him for me on Tuesdays and they didn't have any problems with picking out his feet last night! And she's a wimp around horses so he must have been very OK with her, don't know if that makes me feel better or worse! Although the other day he kicked out at someone who just walked past a bit too close (people aren't used to this 'new jake'; you used to be able to go behind him without any problems).

Will continue to do the things he likes such as target work in the school, he did really well with plastic and obstacles when I did them a lot in the run up to his trailer loading so can play with quite a few things as his association-pairing looks like its associated with me and want him to think of me as good again :0(

Feeling optimistic again now, just from all your replies. I think that I get down when I'm at the yard and everyone thinks I'm insane anyway because they've seen me heading to the school with a ball (I get on well with everyone, just have different ideas about training and they are all quite shouty/hitty 'dont let him get away with it' type people). So sometimes I just need to hear about reward-based training to remember that I'm not the only one out there...

To be honest, I think a big part of the problem is you being tense. You've already said that someone else had no problems picking out his feet on Tuesday and I'm guessing your bum could crack rocks when you're around him on the yard (going by your first post).

For safety, is there anyone in your family who has a motorcross/ similar jacket? These are lightweight but incredibly tough with thick padding and could easily absorb a bite. It's impossible not to move away when you think a horse is going to bite, so if you can overcome this I think it would help and you stepping back is probably rewarding the behaviour.

For picking out feet in the school, is there no-one to check on you? Take him in and ask anyone around just to make sure everything is ok in 5 minutes. If the school is enclosed ask them to knock gently on the door so as not to startle him.

It's a fine balance about taking it slowly. On the one hand you want him never to feel any sort of discomfort but on the other every episode like this will cause him to be more worked up. If you truly have eliminated pain/extreme sensitivity I would move faster. I know it goes against the grain and might even be described as flooding depending on how fast you move, but every day that you are tense and he scared means yet another opportunity for you to get hurt. The quicker he learns that touch is different to pain, the better. The jacket would help this, as you won't have to leap away quite so often! It may be worth enlisting the help of your friend that takes care of him on Tuesdays if he's better with her. If you're the association he has with pain, using someone else for further steps (i.e. the hanky then numnah steps) might be an idea. If he thinks that YOU are the pain-bearer, he may develop an unecessary association with the hanky/numnah too, if he hasn't already. At least if he is no longer sensitive to the object, you have a better chance.

Does that all make sense? Probably not! Good luck tomorrow. It's easy for everyone to give advice I know. I hope there's a sensible snippet in mine somewhere!!!!

Thanks Diane. I have been a little obsessed with trying not to give off tense vibes to him but I'm sure I do a bit. A small mercy is that all this is happening in the winter when I have about 100 layers and a big waxed jacket on!

Interestingly, last night I tried to pick his feet out (was concerned as walking sounded a bit funny but he'd just got stones in it) and he went ballistic. A girl on the yard offered to see what he was like for her and tried (just to reach down, didnt make contact) and he went mad again, as he tried to bite her she walloped him on his chest and then tried again and he was fine!! Then I tried and he was fine with me too. I never wallop him but of course then everyone decided he just needs wallopping.

Amber is coming out tomorrow so will see what he's like with her and what she says about things, I really want someone to see how I'm acting around him as I'm sure I can improve.

I do think you have a point about trying to move things on quickly. I feel that he is training me to get out of his way when he doesn't want me there at the moment and although Amber said that horses don't really think like that, I'm sure its not doing anything in the way of progression!!

Not sure about walloping on a regular basis, but I would guess that this girl didn't actually cause him pain, but gave him a bit of a shock!

Whilst I agree that horses possibly (I say possibly as we don't KNOW) don't think about training us on a conscious level, they're not exactly dumb. They learn what consequences arise from certain actions. After all, it's what the whole 'conditioning' thing is based upon. That's not to say he's a spiteful little (big) sod who wants to mash your face in the dirt. He's afraid of something and regaining his personal space/preventing you from touching him helps alleviate that fear. For him though getting you away is a short term fix and the only way to truly alleviate the fear is to confront it and learn that what he thought was scary is just a big pussy cat really!

As humans we're quite happy to acknowledge that 'learning can be uncomfortable'. Sometimes we need to accept that it can be the same for our animals. Being cruel to be kind, so to speak.

Is Amber planning another talk soon?

Hi Suzanne

I've never posted on this board before as I'm primarily into IH and I don't want to upset anyone on this board by offering different advice. But with the trouble you're experiencing and the danger you're clearly now in I am posting. Hope no one minds.

I do not believe in negative reinforcement in terms of punishing a horse for bad behaviour. However, horses are herd animals, and they are secure when they have a leader. Not a bossy all controlling leader, but a person they can look up to and respect and feel confident in to make the right decisions for them. If they don't get this, they have no choice but to do whatever they feel it takes to look after themselves. Positive leadership in my view leads to confident easy to handle horses who want to work with you. In the case of your boy, he had a bad time with his back, but now he's OK, but he's not accepting people around him. He doesn't trust them and is saying 'no'. And for him it's working well in that you never say 'no' back, but tolerate the behaviour - which makes him see that his way is in fact right! While you're totally right to be as positive as you can for him, he does need you to give him some boundaries. Once he understands them, he can learn to work within them, and realise that they're not bad, don't hurt and that you are making better decisions than he makes himself. I don't approve of hitting horses, but when that girl whacked him, in a very basic way, she gave him a boundary, and he responded by accepting. There are better, kinder ways to achieve this. But, much as I respect your view that you want only positive reinforcement for your boy, I honestly don't think you're doing him or yourself any favours. What I would suggest is that you look at www.intelligenthorsemanship.co.uk and find a recommended associate near you to come and work with you both. They will work with you to discover why the problem is happening, and find ways to solve it, without hitting, shouting or violence. Although they may use 'negative' reinforcement, I think what is important is how the horse percieves the training. I think you'd find that your boy finds it a relief rather than a negative experience. Just out of interest, where abouts are you in the country?

Finally, please think very carefully before trying to work this through with him off a lead rope. At best he may be fine, but at worst you've no chance of protecting yourself if he does react. Keep safe!

AllyS

Hi
First, thanks to everyone who has replied. Ally, thanks for your thoughts, don't worry about offering different advice, although IH and PR etc people on here often have different views on how to handle things no-one will jump down your throat,we all have the horse's best interests at heart and its all interesting, even if it sometimes leads to a big debate.

The vet came out today and really boosted my confidence. I guess she didnt teach me anything I don't know already but it did certainly help me to carry on with what I was trying to do and gave me the reassurance that the way I have been around him hasn't been making the situation worse.

Basically he's a very worried, insecure horse due to going a bit over the top in pairing associations. I'd said that I was suprised he wasn't 'pairing forward' and being bad in the school just before I stopped riding him etc but she said that in most cases horses tend to make associations wtih pre-requisites (ie gettng saddle, walking to tack room) than the things that happen after.

Anyway, we took him in the school and turned him loose and did a few 'follow me' games and it was clear that although he was interested in the games he does get insecure when you are in a certain 'zone' and isn't that happy. With games and lots of 'easy gains' (I think that sometimes I wasn't giving enough of these) he really became more relaxed and was letting Amber (and me) touch him and groom him with the curry comb progressively more and more. Each time he had nice faces and let her touch him etc he got a click and treat and just sort of relaxed. Also worked on 'stand' (he knows that anyway) and going in and out of his 'zone'.

All in all I feel I am now back on track. Something that really gave me confidence was Ambers idea of breaking up the action of going to pick his feet up (although once he's happier with me in his presence this should come easily as not wanting me near his feet is another form of insecurity) by C/T if I can bend down next to him, if I can bend down and pick up something next to him, etc before actually working up to the final aim. This is all stuff I feel happy with and well within my understanding of CT and general PR.

So.....I'm not sure why I got in a bit of a state, I guess I am just still feeling quite 'on my own' with respect to CT etc. and now am back on track.

Horaah!

Ally, I'm in Surrey. I do admire IH associates etc but feel happier going down the CT route and Jake does respond well to it.

Really pleased that you are feeling happier and things went well for you. Give Amber a gold star!
Keep us posted and let us know how you are progressing.
Ally - welcome.

Nice to read a positive update and glad to see you've made progress.
xx