Hi everyone, posting again as I have am just look for some input on a problem I have come across.

I taught my youngster to move his hindquarters around when I place my hand on the particular side and I played a game with him that I stood behind his bum and then alternated between turning them left and right by touching each side.. he got really good and really responsive.

For the last few nights I have been trying to ask him to stand still when I run my hands over him – in preparation for things like brushing, rugging etc.. but every time I touch the sides of his rump he starts turning! I then thought I should go back a step and C/t for him standing still whilst I touch his head, neck and back but as soon as I get to him rump, he starts turning! I have gone back several times to touching his neck and back, but still each time I head for his rear, he thinks I am asking him to turn!

He is clearly getting confused and frustrated but when he does stand still when I touch his sides I give him loads of praise and lots of treats.. but still the next time he thinks I am asking him to turn.

(Lucy- this could be an example for Cognitive dissonance??)

What should I do? He knows the cue “stand” well, and I am using the cue to ask him to stand whilst I run my hands over his rump, but it doesn’t work and what I taught him before (in the summer) seems to just override everything – now I am worried that I will be losing the concept of our verbal cue.

Do I keep going and let him offer me this behaviour and then the second he stands C/t.. or should I keep working on touching the areas like his neck and back? Or, do I stop doing this exercise and perhaps introduce something like a brush so he can discriminate that when I am touching with a brush he stands? As I was thinking being so responsive to the slightest cue on his bum would be really useful as he will disengage his hindquarters really quickly with the slightest touch?

Any ideas would be gratefully appreciate as I don’t like seeing him get confused when all he is trying to do is offer me what I taught him before!..

Many thanks!

Laura x

Hi Laura, i think you've answered this question yourself! I would try using a different stimulus, like you said have a brush in your hand. What about using a cloth so that you can build up the association?

I inadvertantly trained the same thing with Polar (oh dear......) you can imagine the positions I got myself into trying to get her Boett rug on.....

From a cognitive dissonance point of view, ermmm, not sure I would think so because what he is expecting to happen ie moving his quarters to get a reward no longer applies. Heather mentioned habituation, not sure how this would effect CD. Still mulling that one over...my brain hurts......

lol... your poor brain Lucy!

Well, we did some work today and yesterday and did a few "stands" were i walked around him giving our verbal cue "stand" which was fine, and then using a brush i clicked/treated every few seconds when he stood still and i brushed him, which he did really well and even when i worked down to his rump (where his turn cue is) and he stood still, so he got an extra special treat! Phew.. i was relieved!

But.. i have now inadvertantly taught him that when i stop brushing he turns to face me (doing a perfect turn on the forehand) and he thinks he has to do this before i start brushing him again or walk around him??!!! I haven't rewarded him for this, and hopefully it may just fade away.. is it possible for a horse to have a behaviour they will just do if they don't understand what you are asking them?? I think that the turning he offers is a kinda "fall back" behaviour when he isn't being rewared, or am i just imagining that this is why he is doing it?

thanks for your advice Lucy, you are a star!

Hi Laura

Well done for training your horse so well to accepting a cue I guess the first thing to ask is: Do you want your horse to continue to respond to your hand on his side, by moving away or are you happy with just the voice cue? If you don't want to get rid of the hand touch as a cue, then I suspect it would be confusing for your horse to learn that there are two different meanings for a touch on the side (ie one being move sideways, one being stand whilst I run my hand along your side)unless you can find a way to distingush clearly for you horse, the two types of touches, however at first he is likely to get the two confused until he learns their different meaning.

If you don't mind losing the hand touch cue for moving sideways, you could always extinguish the behaviour by ignoring the move sideways and being careful to not reward it in any way, then reward standing still with the hand on his side. He is likely to go through an extinction burst when doing this so the moving away will probably get stronger for a while, until he learns that it no-longer gets a reward. (I think you mentioned training him along these lines)

I have found with my own horse, that when he is unsure as to what behaviour I am after, I will get a demonstration of a whole range of behaviours that he has learnt, and as is typically the case, it is usually the behaviours which I would rather forget I ever taught him that raise their heads most strongly - such as trying to spanish walk my knee (ouch!)

The above are just ideas that popped into my head when reading the post, as I don't know you or your horse I can only suggest ideas - they may be totally irrelevant to you and your horse, but I hope they might help you get to where you want to get.

MX

PS, sorry for my ignorance but what is 'cognitive dissonance'?

Hi, Marie.
There's thread on cognitive dissonance on the IHDG. This is how I understand it, so you may well do better to look it up yourself!
Cognitive Dissonance occurs, when an animal has two conflicting ideas or thoughts. In CT training an example would be shaping a behaviour,say moving from touching a ball to pushing one. Because the horse now finds that what once applied no longer does, he is in a state of cognitive dissonance where the original of touching the ball no longer matches the reality of his environment. It is linked in with stress and anxiety, but only when the horse cannot resolve its CD. But it is a natural part of decision-making.
Its not always a bad thing, but could be an issue if your training is poor?
Oh, I need to lie down....
Lucy.

Ha ha ha. Sorry, but the image of poor Laura chasing her horse's bum left and right is quite funny!

Lucy, from your definition of Cognitive Dissonance, would it be fair to suppose that this could be induced by retraining the rump movement using a different cue? I know it's the cue that changes in this case and not the action, but now we would have two cues for one action, for a while at least.

I think I just created a new one: REVERSE Cognitive Dissonance.
Erk!

Arrrgh! Diane! My poor little brain can't cope! Ok deep breath, I think you get Cognitive Dissonance whenever you are learning or making a decision. So yes with two cues for one action will definitely cause a state of CD! Very brief I'm afraid, sorry.....started my lunch break two hours ago and thinking I really ought to get back to work!