Hi, I am a bit of an occasional lurker on here, but really admire the wealth of knowledge that seems to gather here, so thought you may be able to offer a bit of help and advice.

Its not for me, but a friend who has a young 6 year old big (17hh) Warmblood gelding, who she has had for about 18 months now. From what she knows of his history he is homebred, spoilt (ie let to think he can control his owners with no boundaries, mainly lived out with one other pony) and then when he thought life was well cushy and in his control, sent away to be broken, ie stabled etc, which must have been a huge cultural shock. Came back with behavourial problems, so old owners just backed off again.

He has many issues (ridden and on the ground) which my friend is trying to work through and is succeeding gradually in a lot of areas - ie ridden, he used to nap and rear which he doesn't do now. The biggest problem she has at the moment, is that in his stable he is a VERY aggressive biter - ie he will fly at you over the door even before you enter his space and if you are caught unawares will bite hard and deep and then fly away from you. He does not kick, although will use aggressive body language to try to move you about - interestingly once in the stable and if you are quiet and calm, he is better and my friend can muck out around him etc, it is just when you try to move him around etc that he gets aggressive.

Although he has shown signs of temper (for want of a better word) outside the stable and a disinclination to do as asked, he is 100% worse in a stable.

I know in an ideal world he would be turned out full time (he will be all summer, but comes in at night in the winter), but personally I don't think this would help him with his issues. This is what has happened in the past and it has just covered them over.

Although I feel he is improving very gradually and starting to trust my friend, she is becoming very concerned for other people's safety on the yard and a bit disheartened. Unfortunately circumstances have conspired since she bought him in that he has had to spend a period of time on box rest which didn't help. As usual, she is getting conflicting advice from all areas, ranging from the sell him he's dangerous, tell him who's boss, etc etc etc.

My own mare came to me with a very similar background and problems, except she kicked as well, which he doesn't do. 5 years later and with some wrong decisions along the way, I think we have a good relationship and many of her issues are resolved. Most people just don't believe me when I tell them what she used to be like. I used a fair few different methods, ie fronting up to her with body language(not violently) and sending her away in her stable which luckily for me worked to a degree, although I still felt that something was missing from our relationship. I then read about clicker training and whilst I don't do a great deal of it, I did use the very basics to great affect with her - teaching her to turn her head away for reward and focusing on a target to channel the aggressive behaviour, this worked brilliantly - although to start with she did try to make me click with aggression.

I think my friend is now considering (although finances are a factor) getting some sort of outside help. She has a good instructor for the ridden work, but I feel that the key to this horse is more on the behavourial side. Other peole have suggested she send him away to learn what's what at more traditional places - personally I don't think he is a bad horse, just very confused and the chances are if he is sent away, negative punishment will be used.

Can anyone suggest any good behaviourial type people or things to try that maybe I could pass on to my friend. Whilst I do not disagree with negative reinforcement etc and will use it myself, I think that the key to getting the best out of this particular horse could be a more postiive reinforcement route (as was proved with my mare) - both methods worked for me, but the PR route put us on a different plane. I have suggested CT and given her my Alexander Kurkland book, but don't really feel experienced enough to instruct her (she has tried to start CT with him, but as with my mare, he has shown more aggression and then indifference when he didn't get his own way through aggression) - I have explained that these were phases that my mare went through and I just had to be patient and wait it out, but I feel that maybe my friend needs someone with much more experience to show and put her faith into.

We are based in Sussex, nr Worthing. Obviously as it is not my horse, I can only pass the details on to my friend and she may not necessarily pick up on it, but I really want to help her and her horse.

Am I on the right track, if I help her to teach him the very basics of clicker training - it target touching and channeling the negative behaviour into something positive.

With this horse, it could be very difficult to completely ignore his aggression to make you click, which I know is what you are supposed to do. Any suggestions on how to set up a situation where this could be avoided?

Personally, whilst I think that the aggressiveness does initially come from a spoilt brat mentality of not wanting to do as you ask (created by his early handling), there is a fear element to it as well (whether something has happened to him in the past I do not know), which then creates quite a dangerous mixture of a big strong horse, who has initialy learnt that aggressiveness gets him what he wants and had no boundaries set, and then has all of a sudden been "taught manners" which has triggered a fear element.

Seriously any thoughts, advice, suggestions, recommendations will be welcomed.

Oh, another factor is that he has had some past saddle / health problems. Saddle has been sorted. His health problems were suspensory ligament and feet/teeth problems - which could account for his ridden behavour. All have been treated by vet/farrier/dentist and he is going to be checked by a physio in the next month to rule out physical problems.

Chrissie

Hi Chrissie,

Sounds like you've made a grand start so far!

There are several people in Sussex that I would trust to help you. If you want to go a bit further afield then someone like Ben Hart would be ideal. Feel free to e-mail me and I can give you some contacts to try:

lucy@equinesynergy.co.uk

Take care and good luck!

Both Alexandra Kurlands books address this in great detail , offering insight and solutions . I think your friend would really benefit from buying these 2 books rather than spending the money on a trainer .
One solution AK doesnt offer , which I have found very effective with a horse , is to throw a dicky fit as if you have been painfully injured . This is Kelly Marks advice . You dont punish the horse but jump about shrieking and clutching the injured part . Degree of histrionics would depend on your relationship with the horse . In a way , thats the hub of the problem too - her relationship with the horse - whether he bites defensively out of fear , or because he regards her as a horse for which he has no respect . Both AK and KM offer solutions that would address either problem .
Best wishes , Anna .

Great to hear from you. And good for you for supporting your friend as it sounds as though she's got quite enough "helpful" advice to sift though!

It's interesting that you think that this all stemmed from being spoilt but that there is a fear element as well. With that in mind then I definitely agree that you want to go down a more positive route so that he can overcome his fears and learn that nothing bad will happen.

Do you get the feeling that the biting is a sort of security blanket for him because he feels that if he bites then it stops people doing bad things to him? Obviously we want him to trust that if he doesn't bite, people still won't do bad things to him. It's great that your friend is making progress in this respect.

Do other people have to handle him? Could she put a notice on the stable door to tell people to keep out of his way until he's learnt to trust them? I know, easier said then done if they have a bit of a "show it who's boss" attitude!

As I'm sure you're aware, it's very hard to give advice without seeing the horse. So this is very general.....

As far as CT goes I'd just say be very careful, for three reasons. Firstly you could CT him to (for example) stand in the stable as still as a stautue and allow things to happen to him. While this is in many ways desirable it also misses the point that placing him "under emotional control" doesn't necessarily enable to him to overcome his fears. If you truly want to help this horse then you need to get to the root of his behaviour, not just train it away. Having said that, this can work - it just depends on the horse/owner/environment etc etc and the horse's reasons for behaving in that way in the first place. Because I don't like training a behaviour away without first counter-conditioning any fear this isn't something I'd really recommend without seeing the horse. However, if you were planning just to use a bit of target-touching as a game to show him that life is good (rather than deliberately training emotional control) then this concern doesn't really apply and I would say go for it.

A second consideration is that if you have an aggressive horse it means that when trying CT the mugging can get quite aggressive. In order to learn that mugging doesn't work the horse needs to be able to try it and learn that it achieves nothing (see my post to Debbie on extinction bursts at the bottom of the Hand-feeding treats" thread). If you don't feel up to going through the extinction burst then it's better not to start. Just checked your message again and you say that this is a problem - in that case I think you'd probably be better off using +R generally but not formal CT. Maybe CT would be more successful when he's out in the summmer and more chilled with life.

And finally, with CT you have to be very careful that you are rewarding what you think you are rewarding. If you think you are rewarding "look away and don't bite me" and the horse thinks you are rewarding "bite, then look away and don't bite" then you can see how you are making the problem worse. This is the issue of behaviour chains and it is down to a combination of fluke and experience as to whether this will apply in your situation.

I would agree with Lucy that Ben Hart is probably your best bet trainer-wise. Alternatively, I'm not a million miles away from Worthing (Godalming, just south of Guildford) and I'm actually down in Upper Beeding the first weekend in March. Could easily pop down late afternoon then if it would help (in my capacity as an "extra pair of eyes", not a professional)

Yours
Catherine

Many thanks Lucy, Anna and Catherine. Sorry haven't been able to spare the time to look on here since I posted.

I really appreciate your comments and offers of help. As it isn't my horse, I cannot take you up on them, but will pass all the information from the thread to my friend. Thank you.

Anna - the book I have leant her is the AK one and she has read with interest the story on Fig.

Catherine - I understand your reservations on the clicker training and my friend hasn't actually gone down this route yet and is trying just a more positive approach generally and as you have suggested, a more one to one handling approach (which hasn't been difficult, as not many other people want to handle him!). There are glimmers of improvement, which has helped her enormously to feel more positive herself about things and the horse is responding to this approach quite well. I think it is a case of that old spiralling circle - when things were going bad, she got very down (as anyone who has an aggressive horse knows, it can be very depressing day in, day out), he then reacted to these vibes, she reacted back and spent a lot of time thinking about his negative points and reacting to those). She is more positive now and he seems to be spiralling positively with her. I have tried to make her see that the little improvements do count and to really look for them and appreciate what she is given. I do feel that so many people in the horseworld want that immediate and complete solution and improvement and it does create a pressure environment if you don't have a horse like that.

Anyway, many thanks everyone. I will let you know how it goes in the future.

Chrissie, it sounds as though things are going so well! You're doing exactly the right thing in encouraging her to look for the positives in the relationship. What may be little things to other people on the yard are big achievements for your friend because of the place she started with this horse. You're so right about people in the horse world wanting everything NOW. Sometimes a good analogy to use with them is a tendon or ligament injury. The vet says 6 months box rest and we do it, as much as we hate it. So why should an emotional problem be any different. If this horse has had problems for years then he won't be able to overcome them overnight. (sorry, got carried away and preached to the converted there!) Fantastic stuff, keep it up!

It may help her to keep some sort of diary. For example, when did the horse last take a chunk out of her? Having a diary is a really nice way of being able to look back and realise that although she might still see him as an aggressive horse, he (for example) actually hasn't bitten her for 6 months. That makes him a non-biting horse in my book and she could start to use more positive language! She should record the good and bad; the good to help her feel positive about the present/future, the bad to help her realise that the past is well and truly behind them.

It's great that the other people don't have to handle him for now. As he progresses with her there will come a time when he is ready to start again, being handled by someone else (ideally someone like you who is understanding and prepared to make allowances for him). At that point you should remember the rules of shaping (from Don't shoot the dog) and expect a deterioration in behaviour because the environment has changed. That's fine, a normal part of learning. Gradually as he meets more people he will be able to generalize and be ok with anyone who just walks past his stable.

Keep it up and please keep us posted

Catherine

Thanks Catherine. It's weird actually because I hadn't really realised how much progress I had made with my mare over the last 5 years until Finn came along. To start with I said oh well maybe Minnie wasn't as bad as that, but people who knew her at the beginning, said yes she was. It is nice to realise that we have moved on so far, even though it was all done very trial and error and mostly "in the dark" so to speak!

I know what you mean about getting carried away, my poor friend must be fed up with me saying, well I did this and oh Minnie used to do that! She doesn't need the diary, as I am always there saying, oh wasn't he good today and isn't that better than last week and look how good that is....poor girl is probably quietly screaming!

He actually hasn't bitten my friend for a good few months (although has bitten others once or twice - me included when I wasn't looking, but that was my fault) and is much better with her than anyone else. Its true what you say about going back a few steps, the only time my mare is a bit unpredictable still is with strangers, nervous/fearful people or particularly dominant (show them what's what) type people and then she plays up. Yet my ten year old niece can handle her fine and she is quiet as a lamb, because she knows and trusts them.