I'm having fun at the moment trying to teach Mara to like the trailer!
I have spent HOURS and hundreds of pounds on experts getting her to trailer -load... and we still havent completley cracked it. Its 95% there (compared to where we started) but not absolutely consistent.. the main problem being she doesnt like to be shut in. She will load up the ramp (its an equitrek.. side loading) and stand in the trailer with the partitions open, even if I walk around and go and get something from the car etc. She will walk off the trailer and reverse up the ramp back into it.... she will do most things other than be happy if I close the partitions prior to closing the ramp. I did have her OK with that, till I travelled her three times, and now she's twigged that when the partitions close that means we might go somewhere, so she will barge out if I go to close them. Rather unfortunatley she barged out 10 days ago just as I was closing the partitions and mashed my finger (broken bones!).
I had one of those lateral thinking sessions, thinking about how I could change her perceptions of the trailer. I decided that my "project" would be to get her to close the partitions herself. She is good at targetting so first of all we worked on targetting the partitions. Within a few goes she accidently nudged the partition so she got rewarded for that. Over 2 sessions, and maybe about 30 minutes in all, she has worked out that I want her to nudge the partitions closed .. and is now closing them herself, and looking very pleased about it all. Quite a long way to go yet as I would like to get her to do all this whilst I stand at the bottom of the ramp (at present I am inside the trailer with her). Then move the trailer to a different location and try again (without travelling her) and finally travel her.
I'll let you know how we progress. If anyone has any thoughts I would be grateful.
carol
Ps If I can post a pic I will do and then you can see the set-up. Is it possible on this forum>? I will have a seach!
OK I followed the instructions in the post on "posting photos" but I do not get a button to "insert object" at the bottom of the text box (just three options which include "enable formatted text"; "also send responses to my email", and "include signature") Anyone there who can help?
I'm just wondering how your training programme evolved after you managed to get her to go into the trailer? You say that she was fine with the partitions until she realised that once the partitions where closed she would be travelling. Have you extended your training programme beyond the partitions or did you stop the training once you had reached the goal of getting her into the trailer with the partitions closed?
Training a horse to load is really training a horse to load and be happy to travel. Therefore it is necessary to work with every bit of the process including getting the horse comfortable with having the ramps closed and experiencing movement then extended to loading in different places in different conditions to help generalise the concept of loading and travelling for them.
Getting your horse to close the partitions herself may help her become more comfortable with the partitions but if the real issue is that she is worried about being closed in a confined space, the noise of the ramps moving up and/or travelling, this may not necessarily help your situation.
Hope this helps
Marie
This message has been edited by thinkinghorses on Aug 17, 2005 4:09 PM
Just to say that I agree with Marie, it sounds as though you may have shaped things really nicely, but then rushed it a bit right at the end. I'd just go back a few stages in the shaping programme. Is she ok if you close the breast bars etc so she is confined but not actually shut in properly? That might be a good place to go back to. How is she with being confined in eg a stable? That might be worth working on as well
Also bear in mind that travelling is probably sufficiently unpleasant that she might only ever just tolerate it rather than fully "like it". Very often I've found thar Jak will just not be interested in treats or scratches if we're doing loading practice in the "horrid lorry" (just that one, the lorry we usually use he's normally fine with unless very tired). He just doesn't want to, end of story. In that case it's more of just practising so that he habituates a little more and doesn't worry about the steep ramp so much (at least I think that's what the problem is). So then it's even more important to keep to the shaping programme
As far as photos go - I take it you've created the realm for your photos? I've had the same problem with there being no "insert object" box and I think it was down to the platform and/or browser I was using. Netscape and Redhat Linux didn't seem to work (likewise Fedora Linux and Mozilla) although Microsoft IE did. Otherwise, ummmm, not sure really (although I'm sure I remember you posting a photo once before on here???)
Re photos.. i'm using mozilla firefox , so maybe thats the problem! I'll try later with IE.
Yes, I know that I need to do a lot more. I think I did rush the later stages initially (we were not using the clicker then). I did get her used to the partitions closing and the ramp going up, and then a little movement, and then a trip round the block etc. After each session she was unloaded and loaded again with no problem and everything seemed fine. I travelled her round the block with someone in the back as well, and she was very calm and adjusting her stance for the movement. All seemed to be going really well, so we ventured further afield... Ok for three trips, but then she decided that WAS ENOUGH (thats when i got the broken finger)! I think I didnt generalise enough.. and made a leap from the local travel to too much all at once.
So I have backtracked to where we are now. Which is getting her to close the partition. She doesnt mind the noise, and seems to travel OK once in (doesnt sweat or panic at all and eats).. but its the closing bit which seems to worry her ..or rather I think its an element of claustrophobia.. doesnt want to be shut in. She is occasioanally like this about a stable, but 99% of the time OK. In a stable she learned (before I had her) that if she didnt want to be in it, she could break the door!! She tried the same thing in the trailer (but my finger suffered, not the door).
I need to work on a more detailed plan for the next steps I guess!
BTW If she's not keen on treats I belive I am going too fast.
Just a thought for you, but have you tried to take the partitions out and work with a full breast bar? When I train loading I have found that working without the partitions at first is a good 'in-between' bit to work on. I often find, that horses can be quite nervous of just the breast bar being put accross and being restricted to a small space (however double the space than with partitions)on a moving platform. Without adding the partitions into the equation too. Once they are happy with the full breast bar, ramps going up and down, being tied and movement then we move onto the partition. And don't forget, they need to be trained for each side of the partition, travelling alone and with a friend
Regarding the treats, I fully understand what you mean but you may find that you have to say 'no' sometimes. Although I am sure we all strive for our horses to enthusiastically approach everything and seem to want to do it, there needs to be balance, but that's another topic.
Yes.. the partitions are not in. Its a different design to a normal trailer.. that why I will post a pic in a minute.
We persevered for 10s, if not 100s of hours with a "normal" trailer with and without partitions, but never managed to get her completely happy. Which is why I switched to an equitrek. In this trailer she can travel facing backwards and have the whole trailer width without a central partition. She is MUCH happier than she was (as she will eat whilst travelling).. but still not very happy.
I will try posting a photo in a mo (*have to swop to IE) so you can see the set up. More like a lorry, really.
Re the treats.. what meant was that if Mara is sufficiently worried not to want a treat (when i am +ve reinforcement training) then I have gone too fast. Yes. I fully agree about the "no" .. I had quite a cathartic time when i first started +ve re-inforcement training, as Mara got very angry when i said "no" or finished. We have got over that now!
And here are a couple of other pics (from earlier in the sequnce- before she decided she wasnt going to have it!)
Falling asleep in the trailer
backing up the ramp (she'll now do this just from a "back" command with me standing at the bottom of the ramp)
Like virtually everything else.. just tolerating things is not in Mara's nature! She is single minded and determined... and if she doesnt like something- even a bit.. she will object strongly. My friends gelding who also doesnt like the trailer much, will go in and just stoically suffer.. but that is not in Mara's nature. So I have to find some way to change her perceptions of the experince. So far the "closing the doors herself" approach seems to be quite fun to her.. but we have a long way to go.
I've been thinking more about this and I'm afraid I'm just not quite convinced that this training her to close the doors herself isn't just a red herring. You've already shaped her to the point of loading happily. And she can do this forwards or backwards (wow!). And she can shut the doors herself - fab! But isn't this all because those behaviours don't worry her? The behaviour that worries her, or at least sent things downhill again, seems to be the travelling. So going by what happened last time, I would suspect that she would stop choosing the shut the doors herself once you started travelling her again.
I think I would be thinking more along the lines of just getting simple, forward loading on a stretched out variable schedule. Gradually only reward the occasions when you close the ramp, initially with extra big and special rewards. Don't close the ramp every time you load. I actually wondered if this was what went wrong last time - having taken things slowly you then did progressively longer journeys. Make sure after a long journey that the next time you load is easy again. It's not a continuous stretching of what she can cope with, but more of a give and take, so that sometimes it's easy, sometimes it's a little harder (but with better rewards) and gradually the overall progress is towards longer journeys.
So just stick to a straightforward shaping plan but don't forget to sometimes make things very easy for her
I have been pondering what you are saying. I just don't know.
Gareth (who is the guy in the pic) and I are going to work on it together over the next fortnight, and the approach generally is one of a variable schedule.. thats what we have been doing.
I find with the Moo that sometimes despite my best intentions I cannot think of a way to help her to "change her mind" about something without doing something like the "closing the doors herself" task. Its almost as if she gets fixated by something, and I have to do something seemingly lateral to help her to see things differently. Does that sound odd? Gareth has come to the same conclusion (as did Mark rashid when he spent time working on trailer loading). Its as if she gets into some sort of repetitive pattern and we have to change the parameter significantly for her to begin to change her mind. So the "closing doors herself" is one of those seemingly little things that might help.
But then again am I just papering over the cracks? is this a "training " solution? Just too much food for thought at the moment!
Well obviously we can't answer your questions without seeing you. But it all comes down to why? If she has a problem with being in the trailer then you are probably doing the right thing. If she has a problem with the trailer moving then maybe you are not doing the right thing.
Or if she has a problem with you over-analysing every little detail then it is possible you just need to get on with it and give her some fun.
Be careful not to fixate on the problem (easier said than done when you've been injured), if it was just an isolated incident when she barged out then maybe you just need to put it behind you and move on???? Maybe she doesn't have a problem with the trailer at all. It could have been a freak "spontaneous recovery" that you could just ignore and carry on as before. Are you sure it is not you with the trailer problem because you are worried about being hurt again?
I can't say, just throwing in a few more guesses for you!
Anyway, maybe this is all immaterial now as I've taken so long to respond?! Sorry!
